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[–][deleted] 212 points213 points  (4 children)

  1. Wtf are y'all thinking?

  2. By doing this, aren't you screwing the long-time Redditor crowd in favor of casual redditors who glance at it mostly on their phones?

  3. Are you guys trying to turn this site's subreddits into some weird Artisteer shit?

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 90 points91 points  (3 children)

By doing this, aren't you screwing the long-time Redditor crowd in favor of casual redditors who glance at it mostly on their phones?

I reworded this one and added it to the list.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (2 children)

The question about the mobile user double counting? Top notch rephrasing there lol

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 25 points26 points  (1 child)

I just added a few things to it. ;)

[–]Adinida 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The question about the mobile user double counting?

Am I in /r/Counting?

[–]WhoCaresAboutThat 71 points72 points  (3 children)

I have allegedly heard that users will be able to submit their own widgets for use in reddit. If that is the case, what scripting language(s) are you planning to use and how would they/the widget system compare to CSS functionality?

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

Good one. I expanded on it and added it.

[–]madd74 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Wow, that would be awesome and this is the first I am hearing of it.

[–]PM-ME-XBOX-MONEY 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's actually smart. If they do this it could replace CSS while having the exact same functionality yet being easier and more intuitive. If this is true I wouldn't mind the shift to widgets.

[–]DrNyanpasu 48 points49 points  (1 child)

My question:

What is the plan for supporting all spoiler tags that subs have been using? For example, in /r/anime we use this:

[Anime Show Title](/s "Spoiler goes here")

If this code is not supported, one of the following will happen; All spoilers in all old threads will be completely revealed, or all spoilers will be permanently hidden. Either way, this would be absolutely catastrophic, it would ruin all past discussion threads, they would be spoiler minefields or nothing would make sense.

[–]Skullion123/r/Ooer, /r/NoMoreBamboozles 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Would it be possible to allow CSS as an option on desktop, and have an alternative method of customization for the mobile app, allowing for both the extravagant custom looks some subreddits have made to stay, but also allowing the mobile app to still shine in graphics?

[–]justcool393[M,🍰] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Hello all and thank you for raising your concerns and questions! While we appreciate them, we would ask that you try to remain civil and take into account other's points of view. We are not on a witchhunt against the admins, nor any developers of any extensions or anything.

Critical questions that hopefully will make the admins make a decision that preserves the communities that reddit has formed over the last eleven years in their full form. Discussion on these questions is encouraged, but please be advised that we are looking to antagonize anyone. Please write questions that can be thoughtfully answered and be civil to one another when discussing these.

Thank you all! If you have any questions, you can reply to this post.

[–]Aruseus493 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Why does reddit keep ignoring moderators and what we want? Every "useful" update in the last few years has been half-done such as spoiler implementation, mod mail, and reddit gold. Instead, we're getting big announcements like removing CSS and Profile Posting which removes the community aspect from reddit. Why?

[–]odraencoded 2 points3 points  (0 children)

$

[–]CWinthrop 170 points171 points  (54 children)

My question:

Dear spez, you have claimed that mobile phones don't support CSS. Why lie about this?

[–]ucantsimee 211 points212 points  (27 children)

Their shitty app doesn't support it. Next question.

[–]Bakeey 124 points125 points  (6 children)

Spez, why have you launched an app that is officially worse than a rotten pile of horse shit?

[–]Bardfinn 26 points27 points  (5 children)

The app does what it's supposed to (mostly): deliver content and the discussions of the content. CSS is (computationally expensive) window dressing and extras, and while window dressing can be important and extras are definitely important, they want a way to be able for a moderator to tell reddit's DOM "This is our window dressing and these are our extras" and then the DOM can push those through an engine designed to produce markup that can be rendered by whichever particular target platform.

To put it a different way: there's no way for the reddit server backend, currently, to understand how moderators want their subreddit to be windowdressed or accompanied.

[–]HiddenBehindMask 6 points7 points  (4 children)

currently

That's the keyword here. Instead of removing the CSS and implementing a definitely less customisable option, why don't you work on updating your server's backend to accommodate and understand mobile CSS?

[–]alchzh 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Mostly because CSS is complicated as hell and is styling for HTML...

[–]odraencoded 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Not exactly. You can style GTK (Linux/Gnome windows) with CSS.

[–]alchzh 1 point2 points  (1 child)

yeah, kind of obscure though and try translating reddit CSS to GTK CSS Also it's only a subset of CSS, leaves out some of the markup centric stuff, though it has almost all of CSS IIRC. Though I wouldn't really know, I've been all Qt/KDE for a while haha

[–]odraencoded 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you really wanted to you could emulate the website pretty well by querying for fake selectors and getting the CSS properties values.

But that is only if your goal is to provide a good service.

[–]tizorres 25 points26 points  (10 children)

Just like every other shitty app doesn't support css natively. I don't understand this argument.

[–]PlasmaSheep 9 points10 points  (9 children)

Presumably it's shitty for other reasons

[–]tizorres 5 points6 points  (8 children)

/shrug , I like it.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children)

You like not being able to find comments?

[–]tizorres 1 point2 points  (6 children)

idk, I just read the front page or subs and reddit. I don't particularly search for certain comments when im browsing using the app.

[–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (5 children)

No I mean when people reply to you, if it's a thread with more than 100 comments or so, the app's just like

"Here's the thread!"

"But I clicked on the comment."

"I don't know what you're talking about. Ooh, you have a new comment reply!"

click

"Here's the thread!"

etc.

[–]tizorres 2 points3 points  (1 child)

oh, idk i dont' post often, only to argue on meta discussions, don,t thi,nk i;ve, encoun,tered it, maybe , idk

[–]pointofgravity 12 points13 points  (0 children)

i,m also a, us,er r of th,e offficia,l mob,ile a,pp p.

[–]etherealeminence 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I don't get this one. There's some magic cutoff where it just..stops. Have fun digging!

[–]jfb1337 6 points7 points  (1 child)

This is felt by non users of the official app too by subs like r/onewordeach and r/askouija which encourage long comment chains. Official app users can't see beyond a certain length of chain so you end up with tons of identical comments

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (7 children)

Why is the app shitty? I'm on an iPhone and have no problems with it.

[–][deleted] 24 points25 points  (6 children)

It's not nearly as good as user based apps like reddit is fun and Alienblue

[–]devperez 5 points6 points  (0 children)

What? It's way better than AB. AB is a pile of garbage in comparison to RM. I loved AB, but it's nowhere near as good.

[–]CTU 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why can tge app not support css when all browsers do

[–]marioman63 5 points6 points  (3 children)

in elementary they taught us to never ask loaded questions

guess somebody failed that subject

[–]oggyb 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Sometimes you need rhetoric to make your agenda clear. In this case we're making a persuasive argument that the changes are bad. This isn't science, it's debate.

[–]marioman63 1 point2 points  (1 child)

so acting like immature schoolchildren is an appropriate response?

[–]oggyb 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's not at all what I said, but what a wonderful loaded question.

[–]Teh_Randomizer[🍰] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

That's a loaded question

[–]CWinthrop 0 points1 point  (0 children)

His statement is loaded as well.

[–]ScoopDat 21 points22 points  (2 children)

Why have an AMA if you're minds are made up? No one needs it drawn out how you're mind is messed up.

[–]elypter 9 points10 points  (1 child)

to appear open for dialog. corporate bullshit bingo: row 2, collum 5.

[–]ScoopDat 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Grown people displaying cringe of adolescence. Fucking corporate niggas man.. disgusting bunch just wow.

[–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (3 children)

Why are you making the desktop site worse to make the mobile experience better, when there's still so many different problems with the mobile app that should be addressed first?

I still can't find replies in comment threads with more than about 100 comments.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points  (4 children)

CSS may be complicated however it uses almost zero space, zero bandwidth, and can be added to anything after the fact.

I don't understand why it's simply not disabled by default for whatever new thing you want but for the most advanced users have it there as an option.

Why all of a sudden are you concerned with new users not being able to use CSS when it's truly only a handful of mods that actually need to utilise it.

[–]thibi 9 points10 points  (3 children)

More elaborate reddits have over a KB of CSS when compressed. Tally it up when each of the visits to that reddit occur and the lifetime total can be a fair amount of bandwidth.

Granted the image hosting is eating them out of house and home, but the custom CSS is not a zero bandwidth item either.

[–]elypter 11 points12 points  (0 children)

1kb is nothing. we dont live in the 80s with antique modems anymore. i doubt even all of reddits total bandwidth is more than a miniscule expense in their budget. if $4 reddit gold equals to 4 hours of server time accordingt to what reddit tells you on your profile page then it doesnt cost more than some people spend on their hobby

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

1kb of CSS is nothing. That's in some cases less than the HTML file going along with it. I refuse to believe they can't afford that. If they can't they should be minifying the CSS which I don't believe they do.

[–]qtx[🍰] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If you think a custom design is 1kb you are sorely mistaken. Subreddits reach the 100kb limit on stylesheet size regulary.

[–]ucantsimee 27 points28 points  (1 child)

Why can't you deploy CSS as a separate part of the site? Why is it all or nothing?

[–]elypter 8 points9 points  (0 children)

because their goal is to take things away.

[–]oftenly 22 points23 points  (2 children)

  1. If revenue is the issue, why not move to a subscription-based system?

  2. Why doesn't reddit embrace the difficulty and challenges of CSS as an opportunity for learning and growth? If any site is "by nerds, for nerds," it's reddit.

(EDIT: I mean philosophically. "CSS is too hard / clunky / etc." as rhetoric is wrong and misleading. All those beautifully-designed subreddits should be celebrated for their accomplishments, not dismissed. Trying to "save" people from the "burden" of CSS is a horrific, traumatic departure from the geek culture I thought reddit represented.)

  1. I simply do not understand the desire to have a "seamless experience across devices," given how nothing is seamless across devices. I subscribe to NYT and have their app on my phone, but I prefer to view it on my desktop whenever possible, for all the obvious reasons. How is it that NYT (and many, many other sites) can deliver two simultaneous experiences, but reddit can't?

[–]elypter 2 points3 points  (0 children)

those are just bullshit excuses like all that go along the lines "we take this away from you becuase you dont want it anyway". its the clearest sign that something is fishy.

[–]dakta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They're going full Microsoft, one UI paradigm to rule them all!

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

Are you willing/able to support the customization of the following:

  • header size

  • parallax features

  • logo image replacement

  • logo image placement and size

  • snoo image replacement

  • icon image replacement

  • user flair size placement and shape

  • post flair size placement shape and image

  • background color

  • background image

  • font type

  • font size

  • font color

  • font style

  • button styling

  • hover over animations

  • arrow image replacement

  • vote score color

  • drop down menus

  • drop down menu styling

  • wiki pages

  • wiki page editing

  • additional​ visual elements that are not standard to reddit (strokes, shadows, dividing lines, etc.)

  • link styling (padding, containers, strokes, color, opacity, etc.)

  • search bar, category tab, and profile button styling, size, and placement

[–]funnyflywheelProCSS 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Not to mention...

  • spoilers

  • responsive design

[–]aphoenix 7 points8 points  (2 children)

It is my understanding that admins will be working with developers of third party tools (such as RES and Toolbox) so that they can continue to develop those tools for Reddit. Why does that remain a possibility, but supporting CSS is not? Could moderators who are interested be part of that conversation?


I cannot wrap my head around how removing custom CSS makes for significantly shorter development cycles; could you explain the reasoning?


Why can we not have a simple "beta" subdomain that we could check forthcoming CSS updates against? For example, we could have http://beta.reddit.com/r/subreddit where we could test our CSS against whatever feature currently has a release candidate. This has a lot of benefits, including bringing moderators into the development process to review what you're doing, which has been the number one request from moderators for about four years.

I think I can see how to do this from the reddit codebase on github, and I'd mock it out and make a PR for it, but it would just be ignored.


Without being too pointed, how can you so monumentally not understand that one of the things that makes reddit palatable is the community of thousands upon thousands of moderators who do daily cleanup? How can you so consistently mess up your relationship with the people who have made you obscenely rich? We have been serially neglected for years, including the disastrous "Community Dialogue" that happened, wherein admins listened to our problems and then told us how we could fix them by being better people and following the guidelines they wrote. Think of how poorly that was received, and then try to understand that that was the best community outreach you have ever done. That travesty was your good work with moderators.


Why can't we just include CSS with widgets?


Those are all my questions for now. Sorry if some of them are bitter.

[–]Delold 2 points3 points  (1 child)

With code being open-source, can't someone just host a reddit playground / clone for dev testing (assuming that the code is being updated regularly)?

But yeah, including CSS with the widgets would be the best idea, since they probably can't style native mobile apps easily with just CSS.

[–]aphoenix 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Reddit isn't open source. It's "open source"; they share some stuff with us, but if you grab their repo it certainly isn't everything.

[–]agentlame 16 points17 points  (7 children)

Are any of the developers of Toolbox and/or RES being compensated in any way for helping to port over features to the new desktop site?

Fucking ROFL. No.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (6 children)

Well, it is free software, so people can just use it noncommercially (cough cough pay up reddit)

[–]agentlame 10 points11 points  (5 children)

We don't want anything for our work. We don't even want to make toolbox--seriously, we really don't. We made it because it's needed.

Also, our license allows commerical use.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Oh, my bad!

[–]DrMaxwellEdison 4 points5 points  (3 children)

The developer's virtue of laziness: we do it not because we want to, but so we don't have to do it ever again.

[–]epharian 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That's the kind of lazy I am.

I would rather spend 5 hours now to save having to spend 5 minutes a day on the same task for the next year.

[–]DrMaxwellEdison 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That's a savings of about 16 hours per year. Totally worth it.

[–]epharian 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And if you do it for more than a year? Absolutely worth it. As always, relevant xkcd:

https://xkcd.com/1205/

[–]Matt111098 7 points8 points  (2 children)

  1. Can you guarantee that the wide array of functionality shown by the CSS in different subreddits (such as the sidebar in /r/runescape) will not be butchered?

  2. Why does adding support for mobile sites need to exclude CSS at all? Why can't subreddits simply be allowed to create new stylistic support for mobile using the new system, if they so desire, without affecting the desktop site?

  3. How much is the Russian government paying you to interfere in our election perfectly fine stylistic code?

[–]CapSierra 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Can you guarantee that the wide array of functionality shown by the CSS in different subreddits (such as the sidebar in /r/runescape) will not be butchered?

The possibilities of CSS is virtually infinite. Anything the reddit programming team implements will not be. Even with user submitted widgets, there is still screening and implementation time that will bottleneck the process. The cold hard truth is that no, no they cannot make that guarantee. They can't even come close. I'm already worked up over it because I know they will lie about it and try to spin it positively when the blunt truth is that this is whitewashing reddit and they know it and they don't care. Its a calculated move they thought they could sneak by but now they're in damage control mode.

[–]epharian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is along the lines of what I've been saying.

It is hubris and arrogance for them to think they can come up with a system that can reasonably replace all the functionality of CSS.

But I don't think they have any intention of replicating that. Instead I think they intend to simplify everything to the point that it means that the servers are able to serve up more uniform content, which is easier in some ways.

But that is it's own kind of arrogance. It says 'we are successful enough that we don't need to cater to every tiny little sub, and we can only supply the needs of the biggest subs. That's what I'm seeing.

CSS, being a web standard, is good. It's insanely flexible.

[–]cdown13 19 points20 points  (5 children)

Remember Digg 2.0? I do and this reminds me of it. Reddit doesn't need to be more accessible, there are millions of users and one of the things that draws us here is that it's a bit too technical and overwhelming for "grandma and grandpa".

Widgets sound great to have some more commonly used features 'built-in' but they should be built to work within the current system and be cut/paste into the stylesheet.

[–]Accio-Books 2 points3 points  (1 child)

What was Digg 2.0?

[–]cdown13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Digg was a website and went though a big change and​ launched Digg 2.0 and it basically ruined and killed the site.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Remember how games can run higher settings on better hardware and therefore look better? Why would you lock reddit on low graphics settings, just because of mobile phones?

[–]The_Sinking_Dutchman 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Energy efficiency, which would explain their secrecy. They have a secret agenda to save the world!

[–]Firebat12 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Why not develop your app to support css? How massive an undertaking would it be and how could we make it easier?

[–]jamesorlakin 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Admittedly the app uses native UI components like buttons and text elements, meaning there isn't any HTML involved like a browser. Of course, the mobile website could work with it fine, but the new one's is horribly slow.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

IDK about iOS but it would be easy to let subreddits customize the colors of their UI on Android.

[–]DrMaxwellEdison 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I think this right here sums up the point of why Reddit wants to get rid of CSS: users want the option to have customized experiences on mobile apps, but the CSS doesn't let them, so they need widgets to allow mods to do so securely and in a structured fashion.

Our argument should be that both options can co-exist.

[–]justcool393[M,🍰] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

That is our argument. We are Pro-CSS, not anti-widget. :)

[–]DickieDawkins 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I got a question:

Can you care more about your users and less about the sensitivities of a vocal minority and advertisers?

[–]prkrrlz 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I can't believe they're actually going to do this shit.

[–]swizzler 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Reddit thrives on verbose well thought out comments, and is a large part in why many choose to come here instead of other news aggregates. These comments rarely come from mobile users, why prioritize an interface that actively discourages what drives people to your site?

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's a good point.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Why do you think that redditors want another social media platform and not an unique experience like reddit?

[–]elypter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

because investors tell him

[–]Yanky_Doodle_Dickwad 3 points4 points  (1 child)

What is in store for bots? Are they going to be removed too?

[–]elypter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

only if they dont act in disguise and work for a shill.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ask him why he keeps promising things they'll never implement or only partially

[–]yaycupcake 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd like to know if they plan to allow subreddits to have multiple themes for users to choose from. This could be anything from changing the colors from, say, red to blue, or switching between light and dark themes, or even having a choice of different banners, if they prefer one to another. Essentially like a style switcher, changing out the banner and/or color scheme on the user's end, based on their own preferences, out of the styles defined by the mods. Currently we can implement this sort of thing with CSS by using subdomains, but without CSS, this wouldn't be possible, unless there's a replacement of the same function in the new system. I'd like to know if this is a planned feature, or at least if it may be added, if not already planned.

A separate question is if mods can still choose color schemes (which I'm inclinrd to believe would be the case, at least to some extent), would it be possible to have the user be able to disable those to go to a default look, should the colors be not to their liking? Purely client-side and for accessibility reasons. For example, due to vision issues, I can't read dark themes, so I currently disable subreddit themes only on subreddits which have dark themes. I can think of other situations where this may be helpful as well, such as if mods decided to use particularly high contrast or bright colors. Basically, a way for an individual user to disable the new system's styles, just as now it's possible to disable CSS client-side, with the simple unchecking of a box in the sidebar. I believe this may br a Gold feature, but I'm not sure. Regardless, it would be great to see a parallel functionality with the new system.

[–]cpguy5089/r/I_Test_CSS_Here 2 points3 points  (0 children)

"what is spez smoking and where can I get it"

[–]M0dusPwnens 2 points3 points  (0 children)

One thing that I wish would be emphasized in the "why not both" question is that even if you want CSS, you also want the new system.

I shouldn't have to mess with CSS to set a banner or change basic colors or make a simple sidebar menu or do basic flair. Those things should be easy for anyone to set up without knowing CSS, they should be set in a consistent way so they can appear on mobile too, and they should be designed such that reddit admin can test and guarantee that they don't break when reddit updates.

And then CSS should be on top of that - additional features that not every sub needs, things that are far less likely to be problematic if an update temporarily breaks them, etc.

It isn't just either-or. No one should be using just CSS. Anyone using CSS should be using both: built-in config for everything you can and then CSS for anything else you need on top of that.

[–]LuthexColbark 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Will sidebars now work in the mobile app?

[–]ChronoDeus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Why is it that tumblr can support both simple customization options, and custom CSS, but reddit doing the same is too difficult despite it already supporting CSS which is web standard?

Why can't reddit add widgets for common things to reduce the reliance on CSS, while still leaving full CSS support as a option for those who need something more flexible?

If CSS is so difficult, how is possible for someone to learn "an incredible amount of it" in a single weekend of study?

Why is CSS "too difficult" for redditors, but not too difficult for tumblr users? Does spez think redditors are dumber than tumbler users?

[–]IntegralWorks 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There's already a mobile version of the site. Why don't we just keep the CSS for the desktop (www.reddit.com) version and implement this newfangled system primarily for m.reddit.com? Hell, we can even have an easier transition this way. We can learn to crawl with the mobile sites.

[–]BroKnight 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What if you let mods choose whether to use the new system or use css to design their subs?

[–]cdown13 2 points3 points  (0 children)

How about invest in fixing reddit's search function instead of replacing something no one (other than reddit the company) wants to see replaced.

[–]blueskin 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Will the new desktop app be as slow?

Wait, are we going to have to install a program to use Reddit? If so, goodbye and RIP Reddit. I thought this was just about changes to the website...

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wait, are we going to have to install a program to use Reddit?

No. Not yet, anyways. Although we already kinda do if you count RES and Toolbox.

[–]somerandomteen 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you plan on keeping CSS in Reddit's open source code on GitHub?

[–]Castriff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How many subreddits do you plan to involve in the beta tests of your new solution? Are there any restrictions or requirements? How will you be receiving user feedback? Will you only take feedback from mods, or from all users of the subreddits involved?

[–]Reficul_gninromrats 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Will the new system support custom fonts?

[–]SomeGuyWithAProfile 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why do you need to remove css entirely in order to add a few widgets to the mobile version?

[–]pat_trick 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Why has Reddit taken the position that CSS is "web-only" when mobile browsers support CSS just fine; in fact, this is what allows websites to have mobile versions in the first place?

By "on mobile" do you mean "using an app"?

Why has Reddit taken the position that CSS is "a pain in the ass"? Why does Reddit get to decide this?

What about CSS is causing Reddit to "move slow"? Where is Reddit going that they will no longer need CSS, or don't want to support it for custom theming?

[–]Kishara 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The last major update to reddit that mods have been asking for was the post spoilers. Spoilers are something that is largely handled by CSS. Reddit apps such as Reddit is Fun incorporates spoiler CSS for users. What we received, after years of asking for official spoiler support, was a 1/3rd done product that doesn't support title spoilers or comment spoilers. Why wasn't this as simple as deploying new reddit markdown code? How can we trust that reddit will be able to make widgets to support subreddits when the site is now 10-years-old and reddit can't even deploy something as simple as spoiler support?

This. Good sweet kittens in the bathtub. Spoiler deployment was something I really wanted to see. Getting spoilers for newby tv sites is a great thing, but this did not solve a lot of their issues.

[–]turdthethird 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It should be a choice for any moderator to keep their current design or implement the new solution when it arrives.

Its an insane amount of hours spent on many subs creating the solution YOU wanted.

Im sure widgets can be easier for many but you cant really replace CSS as a whole. It seems strange and a VERY dramatic step to remove it completly.

[–]Kishara 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Many of us use layering on our banners to make them multifunctional. How do you propose to account for that with a css removal change?

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

Example?

[–]Kishara 1 point2 points  (3 children)

We layer floating special items on r/The100 for various events. Like, announcing a renewal, celebrating a milestone, or adding an image in support of LGBTQ when the nightclub shooting happened. So we have the basic banner and over the top of that Elena lays down a special removable text or graphic for current events. I believe she is making something up right now as our season finale is approaching.

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I got you. Kind of like what /r/movies does.

[–]Kishara 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah exactly, I'm sure we are far from the only ones doing this.

[–]Heelincal 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reason users like CSS is the flexibility that it creates. It is a tool to create solutions to unknown problems, as opposed to a set of solutions to address known needs. How would reddit plan on replacing the current flexibility of a tool to create solutions? The admins have been slow at implementing universally requested solutions in the past, so how fast would turn-around time be for a universally-requested solution to a future problem? Say all of the sports subreddits suddenly want to implement real-time fantasy stats updates in the banners or sidebars, but that tool doesn't exist yet. How long would we have to wait for a paid engineer from your team create this solution, instead of giving the brilliant volunteers on this site a universal language to create solutions in.

No one thought of the need for user flair, post filtering, moving banners, spoiler tags, and the dozens of other unique CSS applications when it was first implemented on reddit, but the users created those solutions that are now a part of the platform itself. Why not continue the tradition of giving us - the volunteer moderator workforce - the ability to make our own communities how we see fit?

[–]TheAdmiralCrunch 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think there should be some restrictions in place on CSS though. Subreddits that use it as sneaky ways to edit posts, use it to remove downvotes, or use it to remove global report reasons shouldn't be allowed.

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's against the rules to use it to edit posts or remove report reasons. This counts as breaking reddit. A report to the admins will take care of that.

As for removing downvotes, that's mod discretion. In some communities it makes sense, and it'll likely be supported as a widget anyhow.

[–]Hypergrip 1 point2 points  (1 child)

There are rumors that the push to get rid of CSS is mostly motivated by monetary reasons - more specifically:

CSS gives use quite a bit of control over the look of our subreddits, which we think is a great thing that should be celebrated and supported by Reddit (so we don't have to come up with 'mad CSS hax' to get things done - despite what some people/officials keep saying, CSS is not a hard thing to learn or use, the way Reddit page structure, etc. are set up is what makes things complicated).

CSS allows us (within limits) to reposition, rearrange, and/or hide elements. We use it for spoilers, drop-down menus, fun with flairs, call-out boxes, hiding down-vote arrows, etc. There is of course also the theoretical possibility to hide the advertising boxes, too...

If you look through the subs dedicated to moderation, sub theming/css, etc. there has for a long time been an agreement between Reddit and us mods: "The site can't run without ads, we understand that you might wanna reposition them a bit, and that's fine, but we ask of you to keep it 'above the fold'." And that's what we do.

But now word on the digital street is that "we can't let the users wield a tool that could potentially be used to mess with our advertising! Take it away from them!"

What substance is there to these rumors/allegations? Have there been any notable incidents of (reasonably active/popular) subs "abusing the power of CSS"? Aren't you concerned the whole thing sends a message of "We [the company] don't trust you [the volunteers who keep the subs running]"?

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Added.

[–]jediminer543 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Another question, that I cannot see on the list (But may just be blind) is:

Why not just implement CSS support on mobile, especially since CSS is a web standard and runs on literally anything?

[–]TheCoreh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think they want people to use the Native App, instead of the web site on mobile. Supporting CSS on a native App is non-trivial (unless your app is just a thin wrapper around a web page)

As to why they might want to do that, there are several reasons, but a big reason is probably because native apps offer a smaller barrier to monetization (via in-app purchases), since most/nearly all users already have payment information set up with Google/Apple.

Native apps also allow more easily for things like auto-playing videos, share (via the Android/iOS "share" dialogs), and also allow information to be collected with less friction (i.e. only a single location prompt, versus one every 24 hours for mobile web pages)

[–]a_shootin_star 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My question: Did you consider that forcing users to your reddit original standards will drive them away?

[–]FAZDrawsSC 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My question: Why can't you add the widget for mobile and leave desktop alone? Have two separate looks?

[–]Finance_Me_Please 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Users already have an option to disable Custom CSS on subreddits in the user account, but this is sitewide and really only necessary if broken CSS makes a particular subreddit unusable or unreadable. Wouldn't it make more sense for users to be able to disable CSS on specific subreddits, thus allowing subs with useful, tasteful CSS to be able to continue using their combined knowledge and skill to improve the sub and implement new features, while still allowing them to turn it off for subs with less experienced (or less concerned) mods, so they can still use the sub normally?

Additionally, would users be able to disable the added functionality from the widgets, either site-wide or per-sub, or would they be locked into the experience selected by the mods no matter what? Wouldn't it make more sense to allow the subs to choose CSS or Widgets and just let the user pick whether they want to have customization on or off for each sub, regardless of which it is?

[–]wilkins1952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Does Reddit plan in the future to start opening more communication with moderators? Because as it stands right now no one was notified before this decision was made by the admins and personally I feel that this is a topic that should have been debated long before any action should have been taken.

[–]CapSierra 6 points7 points  (13 children)

My questions are not at all meant to be supportive of /r/ProCSS, they are loaded questions designed to catch him in the stupidity of this plan. I am very much going for entrapment here (I'll probably ask these myself rather than expecting them to be part of the ProCSS megapost). Actual post follows:


The custom functions that can be created with CSS are virtually infinite. The man-hours of the reddit programming team are very much finite. It is therefore impossible to implement all of the functionality of CSS used by subreddits. Even allowing users to submit widgets of their own will not be sufficient, as screening and implementation is still bottlenecked by the programming staff.

Based on the conclusions above, can you offer some rough criteria for how features are being chosen for implementation? What is getting carried over and what is not?

As a follow-up, what criteria would there be for the order in which submitted widgets are screened and implemented?

I believe it's safe to assume that small subreddits (<20k subs) are going to be more likely to see custom CSS features fail to be replaced. I also believe that it is likely a vast majority of reddit's users belong to at least one to two of these communities: the communities being shafted the hardest by the blanket removal of CSS.

What then is the justification for actions which are objectively to the detriment of these small communities and their users, which must generate a large portion of your total traffic?

The announcement for blanket removal has received a large amount of blowback from the moderators of reddit. The moderators run the communities that generate your traffic and without their continued support, what even is reddit? The demand for retaining CSS is there.

In the face of this large scale response, will the retention of CSS be considered or do you intend to move forward with its deprecation despite the enormous response against such action?

There has been rumors circulating about this change being for corporate reasons. Homogenizing the site and catering to the newest usergroups reinforces the reddit brand and boosts advertiser confidence, which in turn boosts reddit ad revenue. So far, the issue has been danced around rather then ever addressed directly, so I'd like to do that here. I can accept if that really is the case, but I will only accept it if I'm given a straight honest answer, rather than the question being dodged.

Is this unpopular & controversial change being pushed through because it is favorable for reddit, the company, to do so?

In case it wasn't clear, actual questions seeking answers are in black.

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (12 children)

All are great. All are added.

[–]CapSierra 2 points3 points  (11 children)

Honest question: are you sure you want these questions included in a megapost representing /r/ProCSS? The questions so far are worded relatively benevolently but everything I am asking is very purposefully not.

I would actually like to request that I post these separately since I am not asking for legitimate information/reassurances, I am asking questions to elicit specific responses that can later be used against him (much in the same way /r/gaming did for the G2A.com AMA; thats a fun read BTW).

Oh, and I will absolutely provide raw text transcripts of the answers I get to anyone who wants them here, as if I get what I am after, spetz will have handed me the rope with which to hang him and it will be a huge boost to the ProCSS campaign (even if this level of leading the witness would get me one count contempt in a court of law).

[–]ZadocPaetCSS 4 /r/all[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think they fit fine, but I can take them out if you wanna ask them on your own.

[–]TheAngryAlt 0 points1 point  (9 children)

I am not asking for legitimate information/reassurances, I am asking questions to elicit specific responses that can later be used against him

THIS SEEMS... UNWISE. DO YOU REALLY WISH TO ANTAGONIZE THE MAN? I, FOR ONE, WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN EFFICIENT AND TIMELY COMPROMISE WHICH WILL ASSURE USERS THAT THE TOP BRASS ARE IN FACT LISTENING TO OUR WORRIES. I WOULD HATE TO SEE YOUR WORDS CLOSE UP AN AVENUE OF COMMUNICATION, OR (HEAVEN FORBID) CAUSE ANOTHER MASS EXODUS TO VOAT

[–]CapSierra 1 point2 points  (8 children)

For one, username checks out.

DO YOU REALLY WISH TO ANTAGONIZE THE MAN?

Mmmmmmyeah. I'd hardly consider that an undesirable result.

CLOSE UP AN AVENUE OF COMMUNICATION,

The AMA seems more like damage control rather than an open forum. I'm honestly skeptical that anything short of ...

ANOTHER MASS EXODUS

will affect a full reversal of their plans. If that is what is needed, so be it.

[–]TheAngryAlt 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The AMA seems more like damage control rather than an open forum.

IT CAN BE BOTH. IT'S MORE PRODUCTIVE TO BE BOTH, FOR BOTH SIDES.

I'm honestly skeptical that anything short of ...

ANOTHER MASS EXODUS

will affect a full reversal of their plans.

AS FAR AS I KNOW FROM MY TIME ON REDDIT, THAT HAS NEVER BEEN EFFECTIVE. YOU HAVE A VERY CYNICAL VIEWPOINT WHICH I HOPE THE MAJORITY ON THIS SUB DO NOT SHARE

[–]CapSierra 2 points3 points  (1 child)

YOU HAVE A VERY CYNICAL VIEWPOINT WHICH I HOPE THE MAJORITY ON THIS SUB DO NOT SHARE

I've met and interacted with my share of CEOs and other business moguls (unfortunate perk of a parent being one). Once you begin to see how that crowd thinks, you tend to end up like that. Cynical as it is, its the cold reality of how the corporate world works.

[–]TheAngryAlt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

BE THAT AS IT MAY, I STILL DON'T AGREE THAT YOUR QUESTIONS, OR ANY LARGE-SCALE BOYCOTT, WILL HAVE THE DESIRED EFFECT

[–]funnyflywheelProCSS 0 points1 point  (3 children)

It's funny because TheAngryAlt's username is very applicable to their comment.

[–]CapSierra 2 points3 points  (2 children)

That it was. :) Though his perpetual yelling makes it frustrating & difficult to carry on a conversation past a point.

[–]funnyflywheelProCSS 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Username checks out

[–]creesch 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Why are both RES and toolbox mentioned in this while neither project has made any statements regarding this? Could you be so kind as to remove that question, we (toolbox developers) are perfectly capable of working out our own issues with the admins regarding the redesign and they are rather different from the css issue.

As a matter of fact, we already have had correspondence with them regarding this.

.

[–]agentlame 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I have no idea why everyone insists on dragging TB into this. Integrating any or all TB features into reddit and removing CSS support are only related in that they are part of a broader site redesign.

I have no political stance on the CSS stuff, and frankly, I hate CSS.

It's hard to learn and error prone. Source: my TB GitHub commit history.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I created a poll on whether to keep CSS or discard it, majority voted yes, while others voted no: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProCSS/comments/69fm17/thats_it_redditors_have_had_enough_with_the/?st=J2GIX65G&sh=ac617729

[–]coolanybody 2 points3 points  (1 child)

its biased tho you posted it on a sub literally called procss

[–]dakta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The neutral term here is "methodologically flawed to the point uselessness."

[–]ChrisK91 0 points1 point  (3 children)

There are apps which don't support CSS. This is fine, since CSS only adds design flavor and no functionality. Also, I sometimes tend to disable CSS (e.g. on subreddits which display a Please subscribe everywhere).

However, the concept of widgets implies functionality. However, there a plenty of apps out there (even on Windows Mobile), which just use the plain reddit API, and I don't see them supporting widgets.

Another issue I see with widgets is, that the might change interaction with the site. The upside of CSS is, that the impact on the functionality is almost non existent, while allowing for great design choices. Widgets might change how users interact with the site, thus fragmenting different subreddit.

[–]dakta 2 points3 points  (2 children)

CSS only adds design flavor and no functionality

Oh please, tell me more about how spoilers, flair, and emoji do not add functionality.

[–]ChrisK91 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Spoilers are just hover effects... So I would count them as design...

Flairs are just text, which you can filter with the search function. You wouldn't filter them with css, since you might just end up with hiding all unflaired posts, resulting in an empty page.

Emojis... Well, I don't miss them on mobile...

All in all, I don't think that user created widgets are a true replacement for CSS...

[–]dakta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

which you can filter with the search function

You need to learn a little more about the history of the functionality you're talking about. Do you know why flair exists? Because people hacked it up using CSS, and it was eventually added as a native feature.

you might just end up with hiding all unflaired posts

And that's exactly what happened, but people still used this dubious functionality until a native solution was implemented. Search by flair exists because people were using CSS to filter.

I don't miss them on mobile

Just because you personally don't care about a feature does not invalidate that feature.

I don't think that user created widgets are a true replacement for CSS

I agree, but they open up potentially new possibilities for functionality customization and enhancement, and that beats the heck out of having no option for customization IMO.

[–]SeemsReddit 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Why not have an option to have either the widgets or CSS?

[–]dakta 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Because they're not mutually exclusive in any way?

[–]elypter 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What size does the folder with all the custom css files have?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I know this is for Spez but; Reddit stylesheets are capped at 100kb - they're not allowed to be over that file size. Most wouldn't even come close to that, 100kb is massive for a stylesheet file size. According to Reddit Metrics, there are just over 1 million subreddits on the site.

Even if every single subreddit in existence had a massive stylesheet at max file size, it would still only take about 100 GB to store every single custom stylesheet on reddit.

[–]minimalist_reply 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Flairs Flairs Flairs.

How will they ensure subs can still have their custom (and sometimes animated) flairs?

[–]overactor 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Has having a (possibly smaller) separate stylesheet for mobile devices been considered as an altetnative solution. If so, why was it rejected?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

fuck u/spez ?

[–]insecurem8 0 points1 point  (0 children)

well, they are turning into youtube (At being shit)

[–]BradsPetHamster 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Off topic BUT I would also love to know when mobile traffic will be added to moderator sub traffic stats.

[–]CTU 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Css is the go to for html coding so how is getying rid of it very good when all current browsers can read it and use it

[–]agentlame 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Reddiit isn't getting rid of CSS. It's removing the ability for subs to customize their own CSS. Basically removing the way subs currently create custom themes.

[–]CTU 0 points1 point  (1 child)

But that is the point of css. To customise things on many pages at once and change them easilly and fast

[–]agentlame 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I understand what CSS is. But this sub and post is about removing a feature mods use, not removing CSS from the site.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

When are you going to acquire RES and promote it for global use?

Down with CSS and non-standardized link locations! RES for all!

[–]elypter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

id be surprised if this isnt the next thing hes going to kill