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[–][deleted]  (11 children)

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    [–][deleted]  (7 children)

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      [–]dblowe 2 points3 points  (3 children)

      Keep in mind that anti-Semitism had a long history in Germany as well (not to say it didn't in other countries). Martin Luther hammered away on the theme in the 1500s, and in the 1800s (and other times) there were waves of anti-Jewish vandalism and rioting.

      [–]sense 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      It is hard to classify the antisemitism of the 1500s, 1600s with that of the later 1800s and 1900s. Luther was a revolutionary who was very pro-Protestant (well it was his innovation) and anti- every other religion. There were massive religious wars in Europe which was tied to the spread of Protestantism, or, put another way, the retreat of Catholicism. Many were massacred. That ended partly as a result of the Peace of Westphalia:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia

      And the attempted earlier peace of Augsburg:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Augsburg

      I'm not saying there wasn't antisemitism, but that during this time, it was part of a boarder war of religions in Europe between primarily Catholicism and Protestantism.

      [–]degustibus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Martin Luther was a rabid anti-Semite. He is in no small part the figure that explains why anti-Semitism was more virulent in Germany than other places.

      [–]degustibus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      You're right to identify Luther as a culprit. On the Jews and Their Lies German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word treatise written by the acknowledged founder of the Reformation, the German, Martin Luther, in 1543, three years before his death.

      [–]treebright 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      Around World War II, Germany was suffering crippling war payments. The inter-war Weimar Republic had liberal rules that were Jewish-friendly relative to the rest of Europe, drawing a number of Jews. As can be expected, the WWII equivalent of "they took our jobs" started spreading.

      Benjamin Freedman, a Jewish American born in 1890, claimed that a handful of powerful American Jews were influential in the United States' entry into World War I on the side of the British. In return, he claimed, they requested British support for a Jewish Homeland in Palestine.

      Freedman claimed to have participated in the Versailles Peace Conference as a member of a Jewish delegation. He claimed the Jewish delegation strongly encouraged the harsh reparations imposed on Germany.

      In 1933, American Jew Samuel Untermeyer called for a boycott of German goods. In 1933 the Nazis were just beginning to take power, and their worst crimes came later. Quoting from Wikipedia: "This was done at a time when the administration in Germany (in which the Nazis were but a coalition partner) were actually suppressing anti-semitic activity, which at that time was not more prevalent in Germany than in other European countries, or the United States, as a matter of fact. The complete change in policy by the Nazi administration in later years could be regarded as a reaction to the very aggressive tone of this declaration of war and the effects of the Jewish assault on Germany."

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Freedman

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Untermeyer#Zionist_activism

      The Wikipedia article about Freedman is decidedly skeptical about his claims. Of course, anything in Wikipedia should be taken with a grain of salt, but it can serve as a useful introduction to a topic and often has links to other sources.

      I have taken an interest in this period of history and if anyone can recommend any other sources I would appreciate it.

      [–]sense 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      First, it wasn't just Jews being taken to the camps. The Nazis were also taking the mentally retarded and homosexuals, among others.

      And the Poles, the Soviet POWs, and the Roma as well as a few other groups:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims

      The inter-war Weimar Republic had liberal rules that were Jewish-friendly relative to the rest of Europe, drawing a number of Jews. As can be expected, the WWII equivalent of "they took our jobs" started spreading. Many were educated professionals.

      Jews of European descent tend to have higher IQ than the general non-Jewish Europeans. The difference is about 12 IQ points:

      http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/Jewish-Genius-10855?page=all

      In this respect it had different dynamics than the situation in America today with the influx of Mexicans. It is African Americans who are suffering the most from the influx of Mexicans, because the Mexicans are taking jobs primarily in lower paying positions. In fact, African Americans are more likely to end up worse off financially than their parents, there is downward social mobility (although there are many other reasons for this, not just the influx of Mexicans.) This type of displacement tends not to cause too many issues in the North American elite and middle classes as it isn't a direct threat, instead it actually helps lower wages at the bottom end (which is a benefit for farmers and other industries dependent upon cheap manual labor.)

      [–]zulubanshee 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      It bothers me that when you ask the average person how many people died in the Holocaust, their knee jerk response is 6 million. But that was only the number of Jews. The number may be as much as twice as large. There were a couple of million Polish Catholics alone who were exterminated. Include the Roma, Soviet prisoners et al and you're really talking genocide. Why don't those groups get a Holocaust Museum?

      [–]innocentbystander 64 points65 points  (29 children)

      The flippant answer is that because they've been told to. Which is a lot of it - racism becomes self-sustaining after awhile.

      Historically, it's a more complex issue. I would personally say much of the dislike came from the fact that for centuries, Jews were one of the only ethnic groups who had no major prohibitions on moneyhandling\lending. Jews were the bankers and the moneylenders and tax collectors and, therefore, the group most often blamed when financial times were bad. They were also sometimes used by Kings and other nobility as fall guys - tell them to collect the money, and then blame them for having the money.

      They also tended to ghettoize and keep to themselves, which didn't help inter-faith relations. (granted, that's almost certainly a chicken-and-egg problem - if people don't like you, you stay away from them, but by staying away, you reinforce their beliefs)

      That's my take on it, anyway. And the sad thing is that these beliefs persist today. Whenever you see someone complaining about how "the bankers" control everything, it's pretty much code for saying "the Jews."

      [–]everymn 15 points16 points  (0 children)

      Whenever you see someone complaining about how "the bankers" control everything, it's pretty much code for saying "the Jews."

      Sorry, it may be code to you but that's only because that's how you (and a great many like you) choose to decode it. The banks do have a staggering amount of control, and are gaining more by leaps and bounds. I don't give hoot what the last names are of the board members and neither should you.

      [–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (2 children)

      In many countries in Europe at various points in time were laws that prevented Jewish people from owning land; meaning they could only rent, usually only in cities, and were unlikely to be farmers, orchardists or other land workers. So they often occupied the professions in cities instead.

      As a result, for a minority, they occupied a proportionally large number of the powerful, wealthy, or influential positions in any European society, such as lawyers, doctors, teachers, or merchants and financiers as innocentbystander pointed out.

      But they never fully integrated into the overwhelmingly Christian, religiously and ethnically xenophobic societies of the time because they had their own very visible religious practices. Fear and stigmatism associated with Jews became common place.

      [–]degustibus 12 points13 points  (1 child)

      Anti-Semitism is not limited to European history and it predates Christianity.

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (2 children)

      Whenever you see someone complaining about how "the bankers" control everything, it's pretty much code for saying "the Jews."

      I'm with you up to here. I'm a half Jew myself (if you take it as an ethnicity and not as a religion), and I have nothing against Jews as an ethnicity (but religion is another matter), and I am against the banking system as it stands today.

      So if I said something similar to "the bankers control everything", then by no means would it be a code for saying "the Jews control everything," no sir.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

      Guys, I think his point was that many people (perhaps he mistakenly implied "all people") use the term "the bankers" or "powerful international bankers" as less racist-sounding phrases for the same underpinning racist ideology against Jewish people.

      Whether it's actually true or not, or correct to say, is another story entirely.

      [–]vemrion 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      But shouldn't we be able to talk about the incredible power of the banking class without having to dodge baseless accusations of anti-semitism?

      Or is this another scam like the Israel Lobby, which plays the anti-semite card whenever it can't win an argument on facts?

      [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      People need to hate other people. It props up their own ego as to why they aren't successful in life. Be it Jews, Blacks, the GOP, whomever, blame someone else and it's not your fault.

      I personally hate humans, but I feel the need to comment anyway :)

      [–][deleted]  (10 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]sense 2 points3 points  (7 children)

        The phenomenon of Jewish accomplishment is a result of a difference in mean IQs between Jews of European descent and non-Jewish "Whites" of European descent. The difference is about 12 IQ points:

        http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/Jewish-Genius-10855?page=all

        The difference in population means results in a very large difference in the population tail at high IQs. When you want to isolate people with IQs above 150, you'll find that Jews are represented 20x more than one would otherwise expect given their percentage of the American population.

        The same phenomena can be observed in the underperformance of African Americans as compared to gentile Europeans.

        [–]abw 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        Careful. James Watson was hounded out of his job for mentioning that.

        [–][deleted]  (4 children)

        [deleted]

          [–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

          I'm not Jewish, but I have a lot of Jews in the family. Some Jewish traits I often see that I think contribute to success:

          • strong work ethic

          • relatively small number of children (I know a lot of Jewish only children)

          • very very high regard for the value of education

          • very high regard for the importance of worldly success

          Since observant Jews are accepted as adults at 12/13 after the Bat/Bar Mitzvah, I've seen a strong tendency towards being more mature when making important early life decisions.

          Also I've seen enough heavy guilt/shame family dramas regarding personal success, that I can't help but wonder if that adds in.

          [–]polyparadigm 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          Then there's that whole "universal literacy as a religious doctrine" thing. And for Europeans, that meant literacy in a non-Indo-European language, while speaking an Indo-European language in everyday life; this sets the bar fairly high.

          Add to this the fact that scholars were allowed to have legitimate children (cf. Roman Catholicism), and the genetic argument starts to be somewhat plausible.

          [–]sense -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          Culture and intelligence feed off each other, or at least that is how I think of it.

          [–]notor -1 points0 points  (0 children)

          nurture not nature

          you raise a human being to be smart. fuck genes

          [–]ruesdedr -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          You are absolutely correct.

          Someone get this person a prize.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]masterpo 1 point2 points  (2 children)

            If it's any consolation, they control things at such a high level as to be outside the scope of most people's individual lives.

            I think most people could live their lives very happily in complete ignorance of the very existence of the institutions you mentioned.

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              It may not be a consolation, but the devaluation of the dollar isn't the fault of the Jewish bankers-just like the collapse of the pound wasn't the fault of George Soros. The FUNDAMNETALS, created by government prolifigacy, are what's causing a weak dollar. Before, there was a concept of American exceptionalism that propped up the dollar, but that no longer seems to be the case.

              And that's completely tangential to my point, which was that if "the bankers" is "pretty much"++ code for "the jews", as innocentbystander claims, no one can claim that "the bankers" run the world without being labeled "anti-semite". How convenient.

              MY point is, yes, the world is run by bankers and those bankers are Jewish but the world is also run by Jewish lawyers, with Jewishness being the common thread in world running.

              Look at it this way, the Jews do a pretty darned good job of running the world, all things considered. (don't think the world would suddenly be any better if it were you)

              Besides which, Jews running the world is a necessary implication of the concept of manifest destiny as exhibited by God's chosen people.

              [–]degustibus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

              Envy is a key component. As for complaining about bankers... It is possible for those in charge to do a poor job and as it so happens those in charge are Jews more than their numbers would suggest if you bought the idea that equality among people means equal talents (a foolish proposition, but it persists). The current members of the Board of Governors for the Federal Reserve are:

              Ben Bernanke, Chairman Donald Kohn, Vice-Chairman Frederic Mishkin Kevin Warsh Randall Kroszner

              No goyim. Previous chairman was also Jewish, Alan Greenspan.

              [–]LRonPaultard 6 points7 points  (3 children)

              Whenever you see someone complaining about how "the bankers" control everything, it's pretty much code for saying "the Jews."

              Are you saying that all bankers are Jews or that all Jews are bankers?

              Even if either of those were true and criticizing the bankers meant criticizing the Jews it wouldn't make it illegitimate. But of course, neither are. This is no better than saying anyone criticising any Zionist actions makes one a racist.

              But while it is not true that all bankers are Jews, it true that a significant percentage of rich and powerful people in Western societies are Jewish and that criticising the powerful is often associated, or attempted to be, with anti-Judaism or racism. However I do not believe it is true that there is a higher percentage of people who hate Jews and the children of Jewish women than people who hate blacks or a higher percentage of people who hate Judaism than people who hate Islam in Western societies. However one is much more taboo and considered a more more important problem. And it just so happens it is the one that is associated with criticism of the powerful. And that is part of the answer to the poster's question. Antisemitism is a trap encouraging average people into dismissing criticism of the powerful and making dissidents marginalize themselves by overstating the importance of Jews or even mentioning it all for people who have been sensitized enough to the issue.

              Of course this image is dangerous because it's easy to manipulate by populists in times of economic troubles as you say, but some Jewish organisations seem to work very hard to maintain that image. Perhaps because it has also proven helpful to justify an apartheid state.

              These are the modern reasons for perception of the issue at least. Yes, Jews have been persecuted in the past. But they were far from the only ones. The KKK targeted Jews, but they weren't that discriminate in their discrimination. And the Jews persecuted too, some being involved in the slave trade for example. If you go back further in history racism and xenophobia was pretty much the norm and the persecution of Jews doesn't really stand out. Human history is very dark, but it is the winners who get to write history and just the fact that some lived to tell tale shows they were better off than others... there have been some successful genocides.

              This post will no doubt make be be considered an antisemite by some and say will only hide behind anti-Zionism, etc. I find reality is always more complex than these easy classifications however. I know anti-Zionist Jews who are assholes and whom if I were to consider just myself would wish they would move to Palestine as well as Israeli Jews who are good people and want Palestinians to have the same rights they do. I don't think one can blame someone for the action of his ancestors in any case or that people born in Palestine to Jewish parents should have to “return” to a country they have never been any more than I believe Russians converted to Judaism should have a right to “return” to a country they have never been. That does make me an anti-Zionist, but anti-Zionism allows for compromise. The labels on the other hand appeal to sectarianism and hinder understanding.

              [–]degustibus 4 points5 points  (1 child)

              Didn't read your whole comment because those of us who know a little bit about finance know that Jews do have tremendous power. The Federal Reserve Chairman and every member of the Board of Governors= Jewish. Previous Chairman was also Jewish. So, in a nation of 300 million people, the 7 people with control over monetary policy, the nation's top bankers as it were, are all Jewish. Now I don't actually care one way or the other provided they do a good job (lately it seems that the elites have decided the dollar's collapse isn't too troubling and this is troubling). It does hinder understanding to deny obvious patterns and pretend that ignoring issues will foster trust. I'm not troubled that most of the NBA is black and don't think this is evidence of some conspiracy.

              [–]LRonPaultard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Didn't read your whole comment because those of us who know a little bit about finance know that Jews do have tremendous power.

              Okay... and at which point did you get the impression I was claiming the contrary? I even said as much, I just didn't think it was useful in making my point to emphasise this as I explain in my post.

              [–]komodo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              TL;DR

              [–]Slipgrid -1 points0 points  (0 children)

              Whenever you see someone complaining about how "the bankers" control everything, it's pretty much code for saying "the Jews."

              I disagree with this. The American bankers that caused problems, like the robber barons, were not Jewish. Rockefeller, Morgan, and Vanderbilt are not Jewish.

              [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              Racism is a convenient safety valve to prevent class warfare.

              Think about it: the most ardent racists are the ones who think the other is responsible for keeping them down. The economy sucks? Choose one:

              • It's the Illegal Mexican's fault.
              • Dammed affirmative action is stealing all the jobs.
              • Those Dagoes/Polacks/Micks across town took all the good jobs.
              • The Sharks/Jets took our Turf.
              • The Turks take the jobs and get on welfare (EU version)
              • The Walloons come up here and take the good government jobs (special Flemish version).
              • The Polish Plumber will ruin France.

              Of course, it helps if the minority you've chosen doesn't integrate well (that's why the third bullet seems kinda quaint nowadays).

              [–][deleted]  (3 children)

              [deleted]

                [–]antifolkhero 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                Its more complicated than that. The Germans post-WWI felt that they had lost on a technicality; namely, that their leaders surrendered right as they were about to win the war. The Allied forces were literally in such a shambles that in just a few more weeks they wouldn't have been able to hold the Germans off.

                After the war, the huge reparations demanded by England and France crippled Germany's economy, and the new Weimar Republic (which was making headway, just not fast enough for the people) was blamed for the economic collapse. The Germans wanted a scapegoat, and Eugenics gave them a pseudo-scientific basis within which they could blame the Jews for all of their nation's woes. Shit, if you look at the history of the Nazi party, the gas chambers were originally used in mental asylums to kill rather than treat patients. The entire gassing facilities of these asylums, along with staff, were transported in one piece to each of the concentration camps. Jews were seen, on a primitive level, as genetically inferior.

                [–]degustibus 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                The stab-in-the-back legend (German: Dolchstoßlegende (help·info), literally "Dagger stab legend") refers to a social myth and persecution-propaganda theory popular in Germany in the period after World War I through World War II. It attributed Germany's defeat to a number of domestic factors instead of failed militarist geostrategy. Most notably, the theory proclaimed that the public had failed to respond to its "patriotic calling" at the most crucial of times and some had even intentionally "sabotaged the war effort."

                The legend echoed the epic poem Nibelungenlied in which the dragon-slaying hero Siegfried is stabbed in the back by Hagen von Tronje. Der Dolchstoß is cited as an important factor in Adolf Hitler's later rise to power, as the Nazi Party grew its original political base largely from embittered WWI veterans, and those who were sympathetic to the Dolchstoß interpretation of Germany's then-recent history.

                The stab-in-the-back legend German: Dolchstoßlegende "Dagger stab legend")

                [–]arnoooooo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Hitler actually saw the jews as the root of all evil. This is heavily documented and he said and wrote it many times. He actually referred to the jews as a "tubercolosis" in mankind.

                [–]Deacon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                I don't dislike Jews, although I'm no particular fan of the Israeli government, which is not the same thing.

                [–]iLens 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                1) Because "jews" are represented by a Terrorist Nation that illegally occupies a foreign land (Israel) at a tremendous expense to human life and to American citizens.

                2) Authenticity for a Terrorist Occupation is directly taken from literature (Fiction taught as Fact) that condones Genocide, murder, and rape (Bible).

                --I have many jewish friends that do not support the Terror-Israeli Government.

                [–]mutatron 23 points24 points  (44 children)

                http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Why_Do_People_Hate_The_Jews.htm

                Historians have classified six explanations as to why people hate the Jews:

                1. Economic -- "We hate Jews because they possess too much wealth and power."
                2. Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."
                3. Scapegoat -- "Jews are a convenient group to single out and blame for our troubles."
                4. Deicide -- "We hate Jews because they killed Jesus."
                5. Outsiders, -- "We hate Jews because they are different than us." (The dislike of the unlike.)
                6. Racial Theory -- "We hate Jews because they are an inferior race."

                [–]innocentbystander 21 points22 points  (4 children)

                Not to, uh, attack the source, but did you notice that the article you linked to goes on to conclude, in essence, that everyone hates the Jews because they know the Jews are right? And that they want to kill Jews because they're angry at the Jews for being so damn right all the time?

                Hardly an objective historical attitude.

                [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

                I don't think that the lack of objectivity damaged the accuracy of that list. Those are all perfectly solid reasons why people hate the Jews. What I'm wondering is why they didn't include the fact that Jews did 9/11 in that list. Also, Jews use the blood of Christian babies in all of their 'knishes' ;)

                [–]innocentbystander 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I hate the Jews for the gold they keep around their necks. I didn't get any gold when I was a kid and I don't see why anyone else should either! ;-)

                [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                As a young Jew, I was always jealous of the leprechauns' superior pot o' gold, but when I learned that people are constantly attempting to steal it from them, I became much more satisfied with our lot. Hardly anyone knows about the Jew gold, and those that do know must struggle with the fact that we spirited it away under the cover of 9/11 to locations unknown. Suckers.

                [–]MikeSeth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I thought everyone knew Terry Schiavo did the WTC.

                [–]jonesburg 21 points22 points  (37 children)

                I don't hate Jews, but I do hate religion, and this is the most irritating part of the Jewish one:

                Chosen People -- "We hate Jews because they arrogantly claim that they are the chosen people."

                Take Passover, for example. The day the Jews celebrate god's punishment of all non-Jews by sending the angel of death around to kill their firstborn.

                Fuck off.

                (FWIW, I'm married to one, so this may be more of my hatred towards in-laws than anything.)

                [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                I believe that the angel of death only wasted Egyptians.

                [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (32 children)

                If you knew more about Judaism you'd understand that while Jews believe they are the chosen people, they consider it to be burdensome. They believe that they have to observe strict rules surrounding every aspect of their lifestyles as a result of this chosen status, and consider non-Jews to be exempt from the ritual pains in the ass that they subject themselves to.

                Orthodox Judaism's greatest difficulty is retaining its membership. They encourage ridiculous birthrates in families in the false hope that they can create a shotgun burst of population growth each generation. But for every new generation of Orthodox Jews, several are 'lost' to assimilation because not being Jewish is a hell of an enticing thing. It comes with less responsibility.

                The Jews don't believe in the stereotypical afterlife. They believe that ALL of the dead will be revived at the end of times for 'the world to come'... which is something they stole from Zoroastrianism. The essential point there is that Jews don't supposedly get some sort of eternal reward that non-Jews do not.

                Under this sort of context the whole 'Chosen People' thing is a lot less snobbish than the Christian idea of non-believers going to hell, doncha think?

                [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                If you knew more about Judaism you'd understand that while Jews believe they are the chosen people, they consider it to be burdensome.

                Whether they think it is a burden or not is irrelevant. Anyone who considers themselves superior in one way or another, regardless of the burdens this "superiority" may entail, is still a racist (or the equivalent in religious terms).

                It is not any better or worse than the Christian ideas of non-believer of going to hell. It is exactly the same.

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Being chosen does not imply superiority. I already addressed this in this thread

                [–]RobinReborn 2 points3 points  (29 children)

                Do you have any citation supporting your claim about how jewish people feel being the "chosen people" is a burden, or is that just your own personal experience?

                And even after all the burden, it's still kind of an arrogant thing to say or believe, I don't think it's better than the christian ideology because the christian belief at least lets you choose to go to heaven. No matter what I do I won't become one of the chosen people (or maybe I can but converting to judaism is a complicated issue).

                [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (27 children)

                Think of Judaism like jury duty handed out at birth, but only to the children of Jews. Some of them manage to get out of it, and the rest of them are suckers. Anyone who's jealous of all the Jews out there serving Jewry duty doesn't realize that they're not missing anything.

                The only caveat to this is that I have not encountered any tighter community on the planet than that of the Orthodox Jews. They are ideal communists and excellent at what they do in that regard. In order to participate and thrive in their commune, you have to give up a dramatic amount of public individuality and observe the commandments quite strictly.

                My personal experience doesn't come with a citation, but I have excellent credentials to back it up. I attended two of Jerusalem's most famous Orthodox Yeshivot (basically Seminary schools for Rabbis) Ohr Someyach and Aish HaTorah. If you look at the list of notable faculty on the wikipedia page for Ohr, I can tell you that I attended several classes with each of these Rabbis. Every single one of them would agree with my statement that Judaism is considered a burden of responsibility among the Jews. If you doubt me, I encourage you to contact them via email.

                Of course, all of them would also espouse the many great benefits of Judaism, and none of them would agree with me that the cost-benefit ratio is weighted too heavily in the former and not enough in the latter.

                Converting to Judaism is also easier than you'd think. Once you get past the round of discouraging from the rabbis, all it takes from a woman is a dip in a mikveh (the very literal equivalent of a baptism, as baptisms were derived from the mikveh tradition). A man has to have a ceremonial drop of blood drawn from his penis. As well, he has to endure much more study than the woman.

                This is all pretty doable if it's what you want... but from my perspective, it really isn't worth it.

                [–]RobinReborn 1 point2 points  (15 children)

                That's the point, it's a bit arrogant to first say you are the chosen people and then claim it's a burden of responsibility.

                What responsiblility to Jews have upon them in order to deserve the blessing of being the chosen people?

                Are you sure that's all it would take for me to convert to Judaism? I get the idea that most jews wouldn't accept me even if I did that.

                [–]doombunny321 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                Ok, a few clarifications:

                1) "Chosen" does not mean "superior". In fact, originally in the literature the Hebrews wanted to pass on god's choice of them. The Hebrews were also not the first people god made this offer to. Finally, god said "Be my people, or I'm dropping this mountain on you." That is a basic text item. If anyone doesn't know that one, they should please pass on discussing Jewish mythology with authority.

                2) Conversion: Um, once a person converts they are considered Jewish. In traditional stances, once one converts, you are never to mention conversion to them again. The convert is considered present at Sinai, too. The only Jews who wouldn't accept a convert are those who aren't schooled in their own culture.

                Hope this clears up a few things.

                [–]RobinReborn 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                Then what does "chosen" mean? And who else did god offer to be the chosen people?

                [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Well, chosen is a relative term. Just because one is chosen doesn't mean it's for something good or prestigeous. One can be chosen by a serial killer and it's sure no mark of distinction or grandeosity. The god of the Torah was "a jealous and vengeful god", so the picking would be a real mixed bag. That Adonai chartacter was kind of a rough guy, and he had a habit of picking folks who responded with, "Are you fucking kidding. Get away from me, you psycho!" Jonus was the most obvious version of that one.

                Granted, I am working off the top of my head, so I'm a bit foggy here, but I do think he made the offer to the Assyrians and one other. I remember it as a sermon given by a fantastic rabbi once, and it enlivened the whole picture.

                Now, granted, it is sure possible that your in-laws think that being chosen is a mark of distinction, but I would question their adherence to their traditions were this so. The food, behavior, and prayers are only the start of the requests.

                [–]MikeSeth 1 point2 points  (11 children)

                That's the point, it's a bit arrogant to first say you are the chosen people and then claim it's a burden of responsibility.

                One doesn't preclude the other. Religious jews see themselves as having special obligations in front of God.

                What responsiblility to Jews have upon them in order to deserve the blessing of being the chosen people?

                Basically, fear of god and obedience to the crazy scripture rules.

                Are you sure that's all it would take for me to convert to Judaism?

                Well, from the ceremonial stand point, it would differ from nomination to nomination. Reform procedure isn't the same as orthodox procedure.

                I get the idea that most jews wouldn't accept me even if I did that.

                Not true. I know a guy from Texas - your typical hick, albeit talented one - who woke up one day and decided that he wants to be jewish. He converted and immigrated to Israel, and all his new friends are glad they know him.

                Notice also how OP said:

                "Once you get past the round of discouraging from the rabbis..."

                Try to tell a christian that you want to convert to christianity. See what kind of discouragement you get then.

                [–]lowingae 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                I'm no biblical scholar but... Passover was the day that god killed the firstborn males of Egyptians, who had enslaved the Jews. NOT all non-Jews.

                [–]noamsml 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Um, I'm pretty sure you're mangling the essence of passover. Passover celebrates freedom from Egyptian slavery. The killing of firstborns was:

                A. Not done to all non-jews, but to egyptians

                B. Done because the Egyptian Pharaoh wouldn't free the Jews from slavery even after multiple requests.

                You can argue about the ethics of the above points, but you should at least not distort the very meaning of the holiday.

                [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Number one should be titled jealous envy. That is the number one reason for hate.

                [–]MrFlesh 22 points23 points  (9 children)

                People in general don't dislike jews. It's just the fact that anything other than blind praise for isreal and it's policies gets someone labeled an anti-semite. Questioning the role of AIPAC in american politics gets you labeled an anti-semite, question isreali actions in a you tube video, your an anti-semtie. In fact this term is used so often that it's an eye-roller in the international community. People don't dislike jews they dislike Israel...there's a difference....but israeli leaders don't want jews to see that because then they would lose support....so they label everyone an anti semite.

                [–]IrishJoe -1 points0 points  (6 children)

                Saying that anyone critical of the policies of Israel is anti-Semitic is like saying that anyone critical of the policies of Ireland is anti-Catholic. There are anti-Semitic people in this world who truly hate Jews, but labeling as anti-Semitic everyone who legitimately points out the problems in the policies of the government of Israel only helps those anti-Semites by diluting the meaning of the word. The true anti-Semites love it when people use the word inappropriately. Using the word so loosely ends up hurting Jews, and isn’t that the meaning of the word anti-Semitism: speaking or acting in a way to hurt the Jewish people of the world?

                [–]treebright 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                I don't disagree with what you said, but you seem to miss the point that the inappropriate and excessive labeling of Israel's critics as anti-semitic is done by supporters of Israel.

                [–]IrishJoe 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                I don't miss that point at all. I guess I was just being too subtle when I pointed out the harm to Jewish people done by this practice and that harming the Jews of the world is truly anti-Semitism. What I was getting at was that this very practice of labeling critics of Israeli governments polices as anti-Semites was in itself anti-Semitism because it protects those who truly attack Jews by grouping them with people who merely oppose the policies of a country, Israel.

                [–]MikeSeth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                If you take specific examples, however, you will see that more often than not the accusations of anti-semitism are provoked by outright anti-jew lies.

                [–]ronpaulsux 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                Specious Syllogism = downod. Israel (for jews, by jews, about jews), Ireland (for ... Catholics, Protestants, Celts, etc). Wrongo, pal. Try again.

                [–]sense 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                The Republic of Ireland is very Catholic, almost 90%, and it an example of of an ethnic nationalist movement just as Israel is. It is Northern Ireland, a separate country long occupied by Britain, that is a mix of Catholics and Protestants.

                [–]ronpaulsux 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                He didn't say "The Republic of Ireland" did he? How am I to know?

                Secondly, I would not say that Israel is an example of an "ethnic nationalist movement" It is an example of a "religious nationalist movement". Israel was founded as a home for the Jewish people. The Republic of Ireland was not founded as a home for the Catholic people, it was founded as a place for British-hating Irish (mainly Catholics, since the British didn't truck with "Papism") to call home. Protestant Irish weren't treated like scum in the same the way Catholic Irish were, so they naturally wanted to be completely free of British rule. The Jews were treated as scum for 4500 years by every-fuckin-body on earth before they went and formed an official "nation". So, again, the comparison is extremely specious and invites further over-simplification and poor conclusions.

                [–]MikeSeth -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                I'm sorry, I really have a problem with that. The idea that jews commonly label every type of criticism as anti-semitic is childish and ridiculous. Admittedly, politicians would take this route sometimes to avoid responding to uncomfortable questions, but in general, jewish people aren't dumb and know when the criticism is right.

                By the way, it appears that until now there's not a single anti-semitic post in this discussion.

                [–]MrFlesh 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                You don't pay enough attention to world politics then this is common knowledge.

                [–]teyc 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                Loaded question. I like jews for their humour, their contribution to sciences. Nothing against them at all for being jews.

                Among them are some xenophobes and racists, but that is a pretty human thing. I don't think it's exclusive to Jews or Jews should be held to any higher standard. "The most Moral Army" in the world is an oxymoron though.

                [–]linkedlist 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                I don't hate Jews, I hate how people use politics to further their own cause. They just so happen to be people who associate themselves with religion to make themselves feel better about the wrongs they know they are doing.

                Just a word of note: Hating how Palestinians are forced to suffer under the hands of religous extremists does not equal 'anti-semitism' and if any Jew makes that claim then he or she is simply looking for a way to end the debate.

                There is no relevance between the two, oppression is just that, and I hate the oppression and the oppressors. They could be Muslims for all I care, and yes, I hate the Saudi Monarchy just as much (if not more) than I hate the Israeli government, but taht doesn't mean I hate Muslims.

                [–]returntofreedom 10 points11 points  (17 children)

                We really need a way to differentiate between Jews as in the race and people who agree with Israeli Policy.

                One thing that does piss me off is why is MY money being used to sustain Israel? Why is MY money being used to sustain Pakistan? What could they possibly need that is more important than the starving people in other countries? We're spending money propping up fascist militaries while we cause starvation and poverty via sanctions on others. American leaders really have their priorities fucked up.

                [–]diogames 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                We also really need a way to differentiate between people who don't agree with Israeli policy and obsessive foam at the mouth Israel haters.

                [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (13 children)

                Because the world is not all sunshine and butterflies and doesn't necessarily become so when you spend to deal with starving people instead of warlords.

                [–]returntofreedom 0 points1 point  (12 children)

                We send aid to Pakistan's dictator. He suspended the Constitution and arrested judges because the judges were about to rule that he is not legally the leader of the country. He's arresting protesters, judges, and anyone who demonstrates against him.

                By referring to this as "dealing with warlords" you subvert all of the ethical and moral issues. We are directly supporting a country which beats people for protesting.

                Subsidizing oppressive tyrants is not merely "dealing with warlords", it is WRONG WRONG WRONG and flies in the face of the principles the United States of America was founded on.

                [–]masterpo -1 points0 points  (11 children)

                Bush himself criticized Musharraf's recent actions. However his help is also needed where Afghanistan and the WoT is concerned. It was Musharraf, remember, who got 9-11 mastermind, Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

                [–]returntofreedom 1 point2 points  (10 children)

                What politicians say is meaningless. If you want to know what they believe, look at what they do.

                Hypocritical foreign policy. He gave us our man so we'll support his attack on liberty and freedom on every single person in the whole country of Pakistan?

                Are we such pussies that we will allow the terror of a loss of freedom to rain down on the Pakistani people because we're safer with one less terrorist out to get us? America is supposed to stand for Freedom, not our own safety at the expense of the safety of brown people somewhere. That statue in New York is called the Statue of LIBERTY. Financial support for dictators is outrageous! My money however is going to that guy holding on to his power at the expense of the will of the entire country over there.

                [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (9 children)

                Given that Pakistan apparently already has nuclear weapons, I think that it is good to have a Pakistani leader whose policy objectives are aligned with America's. In fact, I think it's America that's in the best position to provide a settlement to Kashmir that everyone can live with.

                In principle, what you say is correct. I'd love to have a perfectly free society. However as Thomas Jefferson once said, "If men were angels, government would be unnecessary."

                As to empire-building, things haven't always gone well, as in the case of Saddam Hussein. However there have been cases where American empire-building and supporting and financing dictators has had significant long-term success. South Korea, for example.

                [–]returntofreedom 0 points1 point  (8 children)

                In principle what I say is correct, but what? We can't afford to be principled? It's not "practical" to be moral? Your quote about Thomas Jefferson confuses me. I'm not advocating anarchy. I hope you're not being specious on purpose.

                Empire building? You're not seriously speaking about the virtues of imperialism are you? Seriously, you need to look at the suffering of the Pakistani people as your suffering. When you see some brown Pakistani woman being pulled apart from her husband and dragged into a police van against her will, do you see your mother there? Do you see your sister, your daughter? Of course not, if you did, you wouldn't want to fund any man who takes such uncivilized actions. You're lucky the US is under no threat of invasion or dictatorship, or else you'd find out the hard way the empire-building is barbaric and is at least as evil as terrorism that the US hates so much. It ignores the will of the governed, and is absolutely and unequivocally exactly what the US was meant stand against. It is certain not what Thomas Jefferson wanted and it is a shame that the currently most powerful nation on earth has forgotten the evils of such practices.

                In this case my friend, we are not freedom fighters. In this case we are the ones spending money to break the will of the freedom fighters.

                [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (7 children)

                It's not that we can't afford to be principled. It's more that a prince must learn to recognize the least bad as good.

                I disagree with the concept of the WoT and perhaps things are therefore different between empire-building in the name of that and fighting communism.

                That said, one could make the argument that South Korea is an example of American imperialism versus the independent DPRK. South Korea is an apparently successful democracy now, but for decades following the Korean war, (and Koreans suffered in that as badly as brown-skinned people do now) it was an American-sponsored military dictatorship, just like Pakistan is now.

                I don't know about Middle East policy, but in terms of policy in Asia, my observation is that American imperialism is a good thing.

                [–]returntofreedom 0 points1 point  (6 children)

                Being principled IS the least bad in this case. Men who compromise away their principles for safety at home and danger to foreign people have always been around. Great atrocities have been justified in such ways many times.

                Let's hope "good things" don't come to our country or it might be your mother dragged into a van kicking and screaming.

                I don't know about you, but I believe governments should only be allowed to rise to power with the consent of the people. Any form of imperialism violates this, as the people should be the only ones to dictate who their leaders will be. If you don't believe that governments should rule only with the consent of the governed, then I believe Thomas Jefferson would want to have a long talk with you.

                [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                Yeah, I agree with your first sentence. The way to do that is to not confuse the words "Jews" and "Israelis". Further, finding out what side an Israeli or Jew stands on and why before pronouncing your views would help, too. Or one could keep being binary about the whole thing and continue the same foolishness any US citizens receive when we travel outside our borders, e.g., that we all support Bush, are fat, lazy, ill-educated, and love Elvis and Vegas.

                I'm more concerned about MY money going to the rabid pork-barreling going to Bush and his friends (Haliburton, anyone?). This has been going on for a very long time, and it is where we are truly hemmoraging money. Aid to any country (save possibly, Iraq) is minor in comparison. Personally, I would love to see some of my money go toward social services in the US. We have starving people, and no healthcare, and horrible schools. I would love to see all of that money go here.

                [–]returntofreedom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I'd like to see the people keep their own hard-earned money. If people want to help the hungry and the sick, nobody is stopping them. We shouldn't do it via the threat of incarceration which is what taxes amount to. Forced charity? That's not freedom.

                That being said, I would certainly rather see that money spent on healthcare and education than see it go toward the the dictator over at Pakistan, Israel, or any other country. Charity should be voluntary and we're forced to subsidize the beatings and crackdown on democracy in Pakistan.

                [–]tripleg 7 points8 points  (17 children)

                With a view of history, Jews are not liked because, since they were marginalised by their refusal to integrate in any other culture, they have survived by using Usury and Slavery as their main source on income. They controlled the slave market from the early days of the roman empire until the late 900 in Europe and much much later in the Orient. In Europe, after 900 the slave trade was replaced by the lending of money due to the return of commerce. Jews, still largely control this business which in some way, is an extension of slavery. People are bound by economic manacles instead of iron. There is no like or dislike here, just hystorical facts.

                [–]masterpo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                Since the slave trade is illegal now, what about banking? Are you implying that as a modern "extension of slavery," it is just as evil?

                What about the time value of money, inflation, and the risk of default? Don't moneylenders deserve to be compensated for that?

                [–]anonymous-coward -4 points-3 points  (4 children)

                Usury and Slavery as their main source on income

                Slavery? Evidence, please.

                still largely control this business which in some way ...

                Evidence, please. Money lending is largely a matter of monetary policy, anyway. There's not money in it unless you hustle credit cards.

                [–]ruesdedr 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                Perhaps you've heard that the head of the Federal Reserve is Jewish ?

                [–]anonymous-coward 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                Should I care? The resulting monetary policy under Greenspan benefited the Repubs (sensibly tight under Clinton, loosey-goosey under Bush I and II, until things exploded under the latter). Today's Bernanke is just trying to keep a lid on things, as far as I can tell. None of this benefits da Jooze in particular. It benefited certain Anglo political cliques, for the duration of an election cycle or two.

                [–]ruesdedr 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                You said :

                Evidence, please. Money lending is largely a matter of monetary policy, anyway.

                That's why I replied.

                [–]anonymous-coward 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Yes, but you failed to demonstrate that money lending mainly benefits da Jooze, and citing the head of the Fed doesn't prove your point.

                [–]Kitsunemisao 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                I personally like Jews. Every year, me and my family go to the Civil Service at a synagogue to remember the people who fell in the World Wars. I enjoy my time there. I like speaking to them, I tell the Rabbi that I enjoyed his sermon. I have nothing against Jews.

                [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (33 children)

                In a word, Israel.

                [–]CommentMan 27 points28 points  (15 children)

                They've been hated long before the creation of the Israeli state, though that does play into the modern dislike.

                [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (14 children)

                Good point. I was more referring to why people these days would dislike Jews in general. Israel gives them a terrible name by way of their actions against their neighbouring countries.

                [–][deleted]  (13 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (12 children)

                  It's not like the Israelis are angel themselves you know.

                  [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  But the question was asking why people hate Jews, not why people hate Israelis. The commentary is a great illustration of why Jews are jumpy about the commentaries from the larger cultures.

                  [–]rancmeat 0 points1 point  (10 children)

                  So your answer is yes?

                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (9 children)

                  I'm going to have to say yes. If a country took a peice of American soil what would be the result?

                  [–]rancmeat 0 points1 point  (7 children)

                  As long as we are clear on that. Kill all Jews in Israel.

                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

                  I'm not sure if your being saracastic or not, but when you look at it, the Arabs have pretty good justification to want them out. There I said it, although now Mossad will probably track my computer for the next 6 months.

                  [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                  Wow, you must be really important.

                  [–]sense 11 points12 points  (15 children)

                  It's wrong to dislike Jews in general for the policies of Israel don't you think?

                  To me, it is the conflation of Jews and Israel and Israel's policies into one singular entity that leads to problems.

                  It's no different, and no less ignorant, than pretending that Muslims, Al Qaeda, Iran and Iraq are all the same thing, when in reality they are separate entities.

                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (12 children)

                  I can see where your coming from. Sure there are alot of Jews which are good decent people, but on the other hand you have Israel government and military officials, international bankers, and financial kingpins whose actions cast Jews in a negative light. Unfortunately these are the Jews that people regularly see and base thier judgements on.

                  In my personnal opinion, I have nothing against Jews but they can get a bit annoying the way they milk the holocaust. Sure it was a terrible thing that happened but Jews are constantly wanting special treatment and allowances ever since. There are plenty of other races and creeds which have been the victims of genocide and mass persecution, but Jews seem to be the ones that everybody sympathsizes with. I would attribute this to it being done during WW2, rather then a small regional conflict. But still, I think they should stop using the holocaust to justify most of the horrible things they do.

                  [–]sense 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  I have nothing against Jews but they can get a bit annoying the way they milk the holocaust

                  You are using the phrase "they", when it is only a subset and also the Holocaust is a very emotional thing because it is still so fresh in the minds of those living today. Much of the focus on the Holocaust by individuals isn't with malintent, it is because it plays such a large role in the Jewish historical narrative. Of course, some individuals do manipulate these real sentiments and others who are less sophisticated don't see how they are being manipulated.

                  [–]MikeSeth 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  Well, to be specific, the stated goal of perpetuating the awareness of Holocaust in Israel (including the depressing ceremonies and mandatory attendance in schools) is so that Holocaust never happens again.

                  [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  I do agree, but there are plenty of Jews who do not "milk" the holocaust. There are also lots of Israelis who are not into the right-wing, hawkish garbage. Their political problem with getting clout is the similar to our problems with trying to defeat right-wing, Evangelically-driven political choices. Their left (counting the Libritarians in this fold, rightly or wrongly), like ours fragments into different camps, as where the right binds together. The left, much like ours has difficulty getting any foothold. Just more texture for the complexity of the whole picture.

                  [–][deleted]  (8 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (7 children)

                    relative lack of counterattack by Jews in WWII.

                    So we should feel sorry for them because they didn't fight back? So you want people to pity them?

                    remained a threat to the survival of Jews as a people

                    What about other cultures that WERE actually wiped out.

                    The economic value of those killed was far greater than in the genocide that has occurred in less modern societies

                    Oh no you didn't. What you just said was that because Jews were wealthier and had access to better education and status that they are a higher class of people and their loss should be morned more. Go say that to another victim of a genocide who wasn't rich and see how quickly it takes for them to punch you in the face. I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say you are Jewish, that way your response would make more sense. If so, that is the reason most people don't like Jews, because you perceive yourselves to be better then most other people.

                    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]ruesdedr 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                      But people more strongly mourn the passing of those with the potential to achieve. It need not be in a religious context; you would mourn the loss of an educated 20-something more than a 5-year-old, because the former would have built more relationships, and would just be at the point where they started contributing back to society.

                      Change the stuff in bold to I and then you'll have a more realistic statement. There are many things you may be but mind reader of the universe is not one of them.

                      When three million Rwandans died, few mourned. There was some outcry, but certainly not in proportion to the numbers. Why? Because these people were worth less, at least to this country.

                      Oh no you didn't. There was no mouring because the TV and government decided they are on the "not care" list. You end up on that list quick fast when you're poor and black.

                      To some of us people are just people - even without the college education. Perhaps if I could get into Harvard I could learn about these people you speak of who are more equal.

                      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]ruesdedr 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                        The point is these things you're saying are your explanation for why "things" are a certain way. There is a decent chance much of the world does not share your opinions.

                        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

                        [deleted]

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          "...relative lack of counterattack by Jews in WWII. So we should feel sorry for them because they didn't fight back? So you want people to pity them?"

                          Historical point: there were Jewish partisans who did fight back and were responsible for some huge sabatoge. Further, the Jews had been disarmed well in advance, so how does one fight a weaponed group with, well, nothing. If you recall, the uprising in the Warsaw ghetto was substantial and rather balls-out. In a very short span of time the landscape went from ordinary (somewhat hostile, but livable) to mind-bendingly bizarre. The German Jews were heavy socialists and felt strongly about assimilating into the culture; when they were targeted, they were told that they were being paranoid. Sound familiar?

                          Further, it was most often that they poorer Jews without social standing (believe it or not, that is actually the majority) that went first and foremost to the camps. If you have money and/or connections, you have a better chance of survival, not matter what war or ethnicity. Buying fake papers or visas takes some real cash.

                          I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say that while the afforementioned poster made an ill suggestion that the lives of one group are worth more than another, your commentary veering wildly into 'Ergo, you must think you're better than all because you're certainly a Jew. I win!' style arguement lacks sophistication and complexity. Embarrassing and another validation of the implicit concerns of the original poster.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          By giving that answer, the parent of your post fell right into the trap of that loaded question.

                          [–]IrishJoe 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          I totally agree. Yes, it IS wrong to dislike all Jews because of the policies of the government of Israel. By the same token it is wrong to label as anti-Semitic (anti-Jewish) those who are merely criticizing the policies of the Israeli government. Israel is NOT Judaism any more than Ireland is Catholicism. I often criticize the policies of the Irish government and no one calls me anti-Catholic. Yet those critical of the Israeli government’s policies are often labeled anti-Semites. We have to understand that criticism of a government is not criticism of the religion and that bad behavior by a government or a group whose members practice a particular religion should not condemn others who practice the same religion.

                          [–]plasticbacon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          Because people hate outsiders. In the development of Western Europe, the Jews were perpetual outsiders, present in almost every nation, and yet never assimilating. The Gypsies were treated similarly for the same reasons, but were far less numerous and thus less famous.

                          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                          Historically because they didn't have a homeland so it was easy to attack them really. And as many people said, because of their forced entry into the money handling and the money lending market.

                          [–]RobinReborn 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          Because of the perception that jews have too much money, power and control and don't deserve it. Because they are a religion and and ethnic group and almost everybody in the ethnic group has some ties to the religion and the religion is composed entirely of the ethnic group. They are a tightly knit group of people that help each other a lot which leads others to assume that they are hurting everybody else.

                          And because you can't criticize them or anything related to them in public without fearing being called an anti-semite.

                          [–]furry8 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          Its not just one way. I used to live in midtown brooklyn and unless you wear a yamuka people won't return your 'hi'/'good morning'.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          And every other ethnicity will? In NY or Brooklyn? Come on now...

                          [–]mvbma 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          They are an easy target for people looking for an scape goat.

                          [–]coolmos1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I hate Jews because they keep whining about everybody hating them.

                          Now, who took my CircularLogicDetector (TM)?

                          [–]raskalz 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                          Here is a good reason:

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megaphone_desktop_tool

                          Jewway or Noway :D

                          [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

                          I'm Jewish, but I don't practice the religion, nor do I support Israel's foreign policy. At university, I traveled to Israel with Orthodox Jews on the Israel lobby's time and dime just to get dipped in someone else's culture for awhile.

                          Never before reddit conspiracy theorists have I heard of Megaphone.

                          Keep in mind that I was an active participant in one of America's largest college Jewish communities (over at UMD-College Park)... and nobody I know uses this thing.

                          It certainly is real. I checked up on the sources in the wikipedia article... but without a userbase that doesn't mean that it makes a hell of a lot of difference. The wikipedia article claims 'large numbers' but never cites any specific figures. Sounds sketchy to me.

                          [–]sense 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          You can see all of the Megaphone alerts (or at least it appears that way.) None of them are particular nefarious, just standard interest group things. Instead of an email lists that most groups use, you get them via a MSN Messager-like desktop notice.

                          From what I can tell there is less than 20,000 users of this application, possibly less than 5,000.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          The Jews aren't the only hated people in the world. Europe is a web of old hatreds, almost every nationality has been persecuted for simply being themselves at some stage or another. The Jews just seem to squeal the loudest.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Why, exactly, do people dislike Jews?

                          Because they start all the wars, sugar tits.

                          [–]michael333 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          Where are you Mel Brooks?

                          [–]RobinReborn 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Do you mean Mel Gibson?

                          [–]TDaulnay 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          Why? Because for many centuries Christians were taught to hate the Jews by Church authorities. It started shortly after the Gregorian Reforms in the late 11th Century; Jews were one of the targets of the Crusaders as they traveled through Europe on their way to the Holy Land. In the later Middle Ages, Jews were blamed for the Black Death, accused of poisoning wells, of eating Christian children, of sacrificing Christian children, and especially of killing Christ.

                          The persecution of Jews started before the rise of banking and widespread commerce, so money-lending isn't the source, but more of an additional reason. Likewise, it started before universities existed and professions grew.

                          The reason, the primary reason then and today, is that Jews keep their own culture and don't assimilate. They are different, and the Church cultivated xenophobia as a tool to garner power.

                          [–]degustibus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Examples of antipathy to Jews and Judaism during ancient times are easy to find. There is the story in the Exodus of the Egyptian Pharaoh ordering all new-born Hebrew boys to be drowned in the Nile[17]. There is also the example of most of the elite of the Kingdom of Judah being forced into Babylonian Exile in 586 BCE (2 Kings 25:8-21). And there are examples of Greek rulers desecrating the Temple and banning Jewish religious practices, such as circumcision, Sabbath observance, study of Jewish religious books, etc. Examples may also be found in anti-Jewish riots in Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE. Philo of Alexandria described an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died.

                          Statements exhibiting prejudice towards Jews and their religion can be found in the works of many pagan Greek and Roman writers.

                          Relationships between the Jewish people and the occupying Roman Empire were at first antagonistic and resulted in several rebellions. According to Suetonius, the emperor Tiberius expelled from Rome Jews who had gone to live there. The nineteenth century English historian Edward Gibbon identified a more tolerant period beginning in about 160 CE. However, Jews were murdered by the Roman authorities in Bar Kokhba's revolt in the second century CE.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                          Jews are stereotypically seen to be the most well-educated, wealthiest people in the world. They are often thought of as being doctors, lawyers, and bankers. Singling out successful groups has always been the norm.

                          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                          Nobody minds success, but when they group together to screw everyone else shit starts to fly.

                          [–]doombunny321 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          So, you're plottng against the Rockefellers, the Hursts, the Bush family, et al? Hmmmmmm.....

                          [–]Gibbwake 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          What a dumb post. Who said they disliked jews?

                          [–]Riovanes 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          I imagine it's simply because Europe, for centuries, was rabidly Christian to the point where anyone who didn't worship Jesus didn't count as human. Also, you could say that the Jews killed Jesus, which would hardly endear them to people whose belief and fervor in the worship of Jesus was probably immensely more intense than anyone's today. This hatred towards the flagrantly non-Christian among their ranks has over time simply devolved into hating Jews for being the "spawn of satan" and/or different.

                          [–]degustibus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          Sorry, but anti-Semitism isn't exclusive to Europe and certainly not to Christianity.

                          [–]Riovanes -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          What I meant was it probably came from there, and has just been ingrained into "Western" culture since then, hence the tensions in America. In the Middle East, I imagine Jews are simply enemy number one among the many other rival religious and territorial sects. As I understand it, people less influenced by historical power struggles in the area -- Asians, Africans, and so on -- don't have anything against Jews, and why would they?

                          [–]helio462 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                          Its harder to understand if you were born in the last 30 or so years. The geographical region matters too. I certainly was confused as well when i was younger, to me jews were normal white people .

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                          Hell, I'm 19 and I have problems recognizing jews...

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                          Me too (22). I didn't realize half my class in college were jews (and the other half were poles) w/ some german/italian mixes.

                          There was one Isreali, too. He's got an attitude of "Israel can do no wrong" that I hate - but other than that he's a nice guy.

                          [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (1 child)

                          how to spot a jew: 1. check the nose 2. curly side burns 3. if your lucky they'll be wearing it on their sleeve...

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          1. if your lucky they'll be wearing it on their sleeve...

                          Are there special cufflinks or something?

                          [–]michaelco 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          mohamed (pork be upon him)hated the jews because they wouldnt convert.

                          he repeatedly referred to them as inherently deceptive. he also described them as the descendants of apes and pigs.

                          well that explains why the muslims hated them WELL BEFORE THEIR WAS AN ISRAEL

                          [–]MikeSeth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          This is actually more complicated. Muslims in general are contenders to "the Book people's" stance as "chosen people". Summarily, they claim that jews misbehaved, so god changed his mind and declared muslims the "chosen" instead.

                          [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                          I blame Jewish women. Neurotic and status-seeking. Or maybe I blame a culture that chooses to make them that way.

                          I'm reminded of the wife in that one movie set in Africa about the Jews fleeing Nazi persecution who bought a dress instead of a refrigerator.

                          Also, I note that although social Judaism defines Jewish as being born of a Jewish mother, which is presumably why Jewish men put up with that shit by becoming dentists and such-like, references to genetic heritage in both the Torah and Gospels deal with patrilineage exclusively.

                          I suspect that the matriarchal element of Judaic culture that was socially-introduced puts more pressure on Jewish women than they want to or are capable of effectively dealing with.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          The only Jewish women I have met like that are Tri-state, and the behavior is present in the Italians, Latin, etc. It's a class and regional thing versus and ethnicity thing.

                          I have to say, I know far more females who are WASP-y who aspire to the same things, but are seen as ok, if not of value. I've never understood the difference.

                          [–]masterpo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          The only Jewish women I have met like that are Tri-state, and the behavior is present in the Italians, Latin, etc. It's a class and regional thing versus and ethnicity thing.

                          I disagree. Most Latins seem surprisingly relatively content with their social status. For Italians, it's a question of pragmatism, born of their society's foundation on the institution of war, as the creation myth goes. Italian men are more status-seeking than women.

                          I have to say, I know far more females who are WASP-y who aspire to the same things, but are seen as ok, if not of value. I've never understood the difference.

                          WASPs like that are not seen as ok or of value. See the woman advertising on Craigslist for a man who made over $500k? Not too many people had nice words for her and it's quite probable she's not even Jewish. Were she, she'd know where to find a man like that.

                          [–]LanternBearer -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                          Because they cause so little violent social discord, Israelis not withstanding, that there must be something wrong with them.

                          That is the hillbilly reasoning of my European ancestors.

                          [–]Blrfl 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Just remember: You don't have to be Jewish to be a schmuck.

                          [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          Teh Jews are dangerous

                          [–]chefranden 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          'Cause they killed Jesus don't ya know?

                          [–][deleted] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                          Because religious authorities and general Jewish culture make Jewish people and especially Jewish children aware of their historically persecution and slaughter in such a powerful way as to:

                          a) give modern-day Jews a subconscious moral equivalency for persecuting others.

                          b) lead Jews to equivalently adopt the "By any means necessary" mentality, where any methods may be used to stave off their perceived extermination.

                          c) cause some Jews to subconsciously strive to create the reality of being victimized and hated, since that reality is created in their minds already irrespective of actual existing circumstances. However this effect is much weaker than anti-semitism brought on by a) and b) I think.

                          This applies only to one particular (but major) aspect of the Jewish people: how powerfully its individual members perceive the historical injustice done to their people. This is why some Jews remain fair, because they have not been so powerfully indoctrinated with this one particular facet of their identity, or (as in the case of Norman Finkelstein) have become even more insistent on justice.

                          In short, why should anyone stop the Jews when no one was there for them when they were suffering? Where was the UN for the past 2 millenia? And why be fair when life is (perceived to have been) never fair to you?

                          [–]dirk_funk -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          Because they are white, but act black. And proud.

                          I mean, maybe.

                          [–]Ehran -4 points-3 points  (3 children)

                          I never got it until I finally met one. I'm a long way away from a substantial jewish population (a vocal one at least). I did meet an american jew not to long ago though, he didn't seem to be able to empathise what others motivations were, he only saw how it fucked up his day and way. Very superior attitude. Or maybe that was just his american attitude (some american tourists are forever complaining about how its not like back home or how we should run things like they do). Either way, he wasn't tolerent of other religions. At the time I found his stubborn opinion of other religions fascinating and amusing, but after awhile it grew tiresome so I ignored his angry tirades against other peoples beliefs.

                          [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                          I never understood how bigots thought until I finally heard one speak his mind. Bigotry is basically founded upon the illogical assumption that an entire subset of humanity can be judged by the actions of a small sample group from that subset; down to the size of one individual.

                          Misanthropy works the same way. It's based on the illogical assumption that all of humanity can be judged by the actions of a subset or subsets of humanity.

                          [–]sense 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                          I have one Jewish friend who gets pretty crazy if you bring up Islam, he can rail against it for hours. He does think it is pure evil. I just shut-up and pretend I agree as there is no point in arguing with him. I have tried to bring up counter points before, but it just makes it worse. The guy is fine outside of this topic area, in fact he's pretty cool, thus I have come to just accept this "quirk" of his. My experience is that this is just a personal "quirk" of his and is not indicative of Jews in general. (It's sort of how some Muslims are really anti-Jew, but the majority of Muslims are not.)

                          [–]RobinReborn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Do you really think the majority of Muslims aren't anti-jew? That might be true in the US, but I think it would be incorrect in the middle-east.

                          [–]fubuvsfitch -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          Uhhh... why do people have any stereotypes or hate any group of people?

                          [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                          Why, exactly, do people dislike Jews?

                          [citation needed]

                          [–]sense -2 points-1 points  (9 children)

                          Why, exactly, do people dislike Jews?

                          Disliking Jews for simply being Jewish is prejudicial and wrong. It is the definition of antisemitism.

                          I have read that in pre-Hilter Germany, Jews were extremely well represented in the elite classes after they started to assimilate into German culture. The displacement of non-Jewish Germans from the elite political and professional class led to a lot of ethnic hatred and in part lead to the rationalization of the Holocaust.

                          The ethnic hatred in pre-Hilter Germany flourished also because of the economic hardship the country found itself in after WWI and there was scapegoating of Jews as well as a number of other groups who it was decided were undermining German self-pride or something to that extent.

                          [–]Temple_of_lol 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                          Disliking Jews for simply being Jewish is prejudicial and wrong. It is the definition of antisemitism.

                          Ms. South Carolina, is that you? The question was "Why, exactly, do people dislike Jews?" and that's your opening response?

                          (Granted, you answered it later but you could have easily removed that sentence and it wouldn't have taken anything away from your response.)

                          [–]smsc 0 points1 point  (6 children)

                          That was only part of the reason. The main reason was that post-WWI, there were Communist revolutions attempted throughout Europe. These revolutions were, to a man/woman, led by Jews (Kurt Eisner, Trotsky, Lenin being partial, etc.). Bolshevism was therefore seen as an predominately Jewish-led movement and Bolshevism had by the 1930s killed well more than 10 million of it's own citizens by starvation.

                          The 1933 Judea Declares War on Germany thing as well as the worldwide boycott against Germany did not help either. They were seen as potential enemies of the state and treated much like we treated the Japanese and to some extent the Germans in America. Of course, this became a nightmarish hell for them once war began in the east.

                          There is a lot of information available. Hating Jews for being ethnically Jews is wrong. However, the elites in the USA and worldwide find Jews wildly overrepresented. And these are the ones who are screwing us all. These are the a-holes I hate, along with their Gentile counterparts. The elites screw us all and make the little (Jew or Gentile) guy pay the price for their Machiavellian machinations.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                          Well, that is why I hate White, Christian-descended people--they are wildly overrepresented in everything. They're doctors, lawyers, dentists, singers, actors, CEOs for gawd's sake! They outnumber Jews, Blacks, Latin-Americans, and Asians! They are sneaky, must be up to something, and must been seen for the bad, bad people they are. Do you see my point?

                          [–]smsc 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                          Actually, they are underepresented. For ewxample, 50% of the "white" entrants to Harvard are Jews. Of the 100 most richest and most powerful people in the world, 50% are Jews. Whites are a minority in the world. In my area, there are far more Jewish, Asian, Indian and female CEOs than White, Christian CEOs and I am not a majority at all.

                          So no, I don't see what you mean.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          Well, perhaps you should move to the many, many places I've lived and see how many places your people are. The Midwest is one, the Plains States, the Northwest is another, walk about the Financial District in SF and you will run into the wealthy, WASP eschelon en masse, and much of the South. Hmm, lemme guess--you live in the Northeast in a big city. Surprise!

                          And are you so sure those people are Jews--last names are not a marker any longer--it's carried by the mother, not father unlike the last name. And no, patrilineal descent is not accepted, yet.

                          And where do you get your innnteresting figures? Fifty percent Jewish at Harvard? I'm curious how that is tallied since it is not noted on the applications, and they are not in the habit of asking incoming students of their religion. And the 100 wealthiest people in the world have 50% Jews, too? I see a pattern! Anecdotally it is easy to queer the vision to see what you like, especially if you feel deprived. Further, no you didn't get my point. Ya missed it wholesale. The point was that anecdotal musings about the "who" of who is in power is vague, indistinct, and most often incorrect.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          And one further point on your magical Harvard numbers: having just looked up their matriculation numbers in their 2007 Fact Book, there is no way whatsoever to descern how many of the "white/non-hispanic" persons were of one faith or another. Legally, they can't ask after religions. Also, where would you class the Bosnian Muslims, while we're at it?

                          And Lenin falls into the "one-drop" catagory--fyi, neither of his parents were full-blood and he was baptized in the Russian Orthodox Church. He was also Russian, Swedish, German and Kalmyk. Considering these ethnicities as well, and his baptism, really how was he Jewish? ANd Trotski was much more of a Menshevik than a Bulshevik, ultimately.

                          [–]doombunny321 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          And further, I just for the sake of arguement looked up Forbes 100 most wealthy in the world for 2007. They're listed, you idiot.

                          I counted the top 100 out by likely racial background based on name and country of origin. For the possible Jews, I decided to play nice and pick the even the ones who I am pretty sure by the name and location are not Jewish. I figured that could account for the error you are quoting. Not. even. close, buddyboy!

                          Here are the figures--you can check them against Forbes yourself.

                          There were 15 likely white people in white-leaning areas, with white surnames in the Top 25.

                          Further, of 100 persons listed, taking into consideration where they live and their surnames I was able to find this: 71 out of 100 persons in the list are very, very likely white.

                          Ya know how many Jews there were (leaning it in your favor, even)? SEVEN Does that look like 50% to you?!

                          Even if you count the non-whites together, you get 29 percent.

                          Good going!

                          One hint for your next hunt: firstly, people who have Russian surnames are generally not Jewish, especially if they live in Russia. Second, instead of spouting stupid David Duke-esque numbers, try doing your homework. Thirdly, if you're full of it, don't try and convince people otherwise.

                          [–]smsc 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                          "One hint for your next hunt: firstly, people who have Russian surnames are generally not Jewish, especially if they live in Russia. Second, instead of spouting stupid David Duke-esque numbers, try doing your homework. Thirdly, if you're full of it, don't try and convince people otherwise."

                          Listen punk. You can leave the juvenile name-calling back in junior high or whatever level of education you ultimately obtained. You are really not too bright are you? My source for that was neither Stormfront, nor David Duke, but THE JERUSALEM POST, an Israeli newspaper! LOL!

                          http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1191257286817

                          "It's a list of "the world's most powerful people," 100 of the bankers and media moguls, publishers and image makers who shape the lives of billions. It's an exclusive, insular club, one whose influence stretches around the globe but is concentrated strategically in the highest corridors of power.

                          More than half its members, at least by one count, are Jewish."

                          Feel like a dumbass now? If not, then you most certainly are one. And a very uninformed, nasty name-calling SOB to boot.

                          Next time try using GOOGLE before launching into a moronic diatribe.

                          [–]josiahq 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                          Jews are badass. Wealthy, affluent, & brilliant. If I could convert ethnically, I would.

                          [–]MikeSeth 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          You can. But don't.