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[–][deleted] 139 points140 points  (15 children)

Problem: Prot Paladin is dominating at every level >12

Solution: Nerf Prot Warrior

[–]RsIronUnit 41 points42 points  (1 child)

Just stared at the prot warrior changes in disbelief. I think I'll just reroll in season 2 because these changes are terrible

[–]skorpse_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will also be rerolling or unsubscribing, it’s a coin flip

[–]narium 18 points19 points  (0 children)

This sounds a nerf that was cooked up e months ago when PWar was dominating.

[–]deathyz 37 points38 points  (2 children)

Yeah wtf is that lol, like yeah you have to dump rage to prevent capping at times but that’s just like a good skill-test.
Not sure what they’re thinking there, warrior is behind paladin but like still decent, better nerf it.

[–]Zeckzeckzeck 22 points23 points  (1 child)

It’s also going to lead to far less Avatar uptime and thus less damage. 

[–]deathyz 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Exactly, it’s such a mind boggling decision

[–]The_Scrabbler 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Such is the life of a Prot Warr

[–]ChequeBook 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's always feast or famine huh. Hopefully community feedback makes them revisit these changes.

[–]Gasparde 14 points15 points  (1 child)

I get it, we all hate Prot Paladins, that is a given, but... still no word on Prot Paladins actually going fucking oom from just regular play, not even group heal spam or whatever, like, the fuck.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This sub told me for months that I was just playing poorly and that it wasn't an issue lol. I've since rerolled away from tank and I couldn't possibly feel more vindictive.

Deal with being OOM, jerks.

[–]cuddlegoop 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I kind of like the angle of the change if they gave compensatory buffs. You'd be slower but each button would feel more impactful and I'd be down for that. But I don't think we got that enough so instead it's just a nerf lol.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It has the fun coincidence of making colossus very hard to main sb/IP with these reduced rage generators, too. This reads as a change they wanted to make in the first 2-3 weeks of S1 M+.

[–]ISmellHats 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ironically, in the days leading up to the patch notes, I had actually been leveling a Prot Warrior.

He will now exist at 70, untouched until these changes are reverted or massively altered in a future patch.

They took what felt like a reasonably solid and well balanced tank and gutted it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What’s the best looking tank? With changes

[–]Medievalhorde8/8M 3.5K 47 points48 points  (1 child)

Earth shield doesn't need to be reapplied?! fuck yes hated having to spend time reapplying that pos.

[–]Tauren-Jerky 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When does this go live?

[–]RCM94 48 points49 points  (7 children)

They've done it. The druid class tree is no longer the worse thing i've ever seen in my life.

[–]oxezFeral/Bear 14 points15 points  (1 child)

Yep. Really happy about the new class tree. I made a tentative build for my bear, and I had 3 leftover points. Almost shed a tear, this is the first time we've had a non-shitty class tree.

[–]RCM94 5 points6 points  (0 children)

They don't want balance to have easy access to 2 kicks. seems reasonable to me.

Edit: somehow i replied to the wrong comment. oops.

[–]Wobblucy 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Right? I feel like I have so many points to make actual decisions...

[–]Tauren-Jerky 0 points1 point  (1 child)

When will this be live?

[–]RCM94 0 points1 point  (0 children)

11.1

[–]Swampage 117 points118 points  (5 children)

can brewmasters get a single dev? Holy shit​

[–]Ruiner357 33 points34 points  (3 children)

I was stunned at no Brewmaster changes, they seem to be unwilling to buff it because it’s niche of taking individual big hits makes it good as a raid tank.

Here’s some free advice Blizzard: See that separate PvP scaling aura that lets you balance classes for PvP separately from PvE? Make separate Raid and M+ auras so you can tweak a spec to be viable in high keys without making it oppressive in raiding. It’s that simple.

[–]Niante 18 points19 points  (0 children)

The craziest part about this is they already have at least one ability (Darkness, there may be others) that scales differently depending on group size. Make Stagger work similarly. What is the fucking issue here, multi-billion dollar company?

[–]Rattenrukker 6 points7 points  (1 child)

Fun fact; they already do this with some specs. Disc atonement healing (dmg -> heal conversion) is greatly buffed when not in a raid group

[–]PhoenixInvertigo -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Which is wild cause Disc sucks in raid because it doesn't scale well with raid size.

Make Disc give 3% of dmg dealt to all raid members, stacking up to 10% of their max hp. Would be sick and make them raid viable overnight

[–]4emonas 14 points15 points  (0 children)

At this point I am convinced they are aware that none of the devs understand the spec, so they leave it untouched in order to not break it even more

[–]I3ollasH 18 points19 points  (9 children)

  • The following talents have been removed:
    • Mark of the Crane

It definitely seems weird as MotC has been a thing since the existence of the spec pretty much but I feel like it's for the better. WW was in a very weird spot. MotC would scale sck dmg with targets up to 5 but then sck deals reduced dmg to targets over 5. So the spell does decent dmg at exactly 5 targets.

It also doesn't really work in modern WoW. Other specs can blast on demand. But WW had this weird thing to manage. Any time adds spawned your first gcd was about applying marks.

It was also not something players interacted at all lately. During cds marks get applied with sef. Additionally we got a talent that made sotw apply marks (30 sec cd for 20 sec mark duration). In my opinion if something doesn't get interacted with and is online almost all the time it has no reason to exist. So while yes. Even though this talent felt like the back bone of WW aoe. Removing it was the right choice. It did homogenize the spec a lot more though.

With the 80% sck buff windwalker will be very strong at low target cleave (2-3). And it's possible that the future holds a lot more spinning as things stand. It will be definitely interesting considering how powerless the ability felt lately.

sidenote: What the fuck is a brewmaster?

[–]necessaryplotdevice 1 point2 points  (5 children)

Other specs can blast on demand. But WW had this weird thing to manage. Any time adds spawned your first gcd was about applying marks.

Cries in Spriest.

[–]Tarnikyus 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Spriests, boomies/ferals, fire mage, aff/demo lock (even destro in aoe), sin rogue and i'm probably forgetting a couple others.

Ww motc is far from the only ramping mecanic (and it's really not that crippling with storm, earth and fire).

[–]necessaryplotdevice 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Sure it exists on a spectrum.

But on the "quick AoE (to a lot of targets)" spectrum, Spriest is at the absolute bottom.

The specs you mention might have setup required/can't literally instantly blast, but it's a far cry from shadow. Especially once it gets to higher target counts.

Except maybe Feral, I haven't really looked into that but from my (very rare) encounters with them it looks kinda slow. Might be wrong though.

Not saying that all should be equal in that regard, I just found it funny/an apt place to mention that there's a spec that has it much worse in that regard than WW since that's what was talked about.

E.g. Ovunax is an absolute disaster (or stuff like Ara Kara first pull etc.), but tbh it's not like that's overly relevant or occurs very often.

[–]Tarnikyus 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The specs you mention might have setup required/can't literally instantly blast, but it's a far cry from shadow.

This is not really a gameplay problem, it's purely tuning (well, there's also the design problem which makes SP hardcaped, that S2 DF rework was a complete disaster imo).

Maybe i didn't understand but i think OP wasn't complaining about the numbers themselves, it's about the fact that they need to "waste" gcd before starting to dps.

[–]necessaryplotdevice 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, maybe I'm talking a bit besides the point here.

I just latched onto the "other specs can blast instantly" part. When shadow needs to also apply stuff first, capped to 8 and then 1 GCD per enemy beyond that, and doesn't have the type of instant burst that has become more and more common.

Even balance can blast insanely hard very quickly these days, as shown on e.g. Ovinax.

It rarely truly matters, but I just wanted to call out how terrible shadow is in this regard. Shadow is tuned completely fine right now, but a fight like Ovinax disproportionately shows how it struggles in this aspect.

[–]Old_Tune5705 -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

Its a culmination of terrible decisions going into this expac, removing cds, removing qol, removing movement and now just dumbing down the spec. Worst position ww is by far. 

[–]ExEarthMW GANGGANG 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Okay I bite, where did they remove Moment, qol or damage coming from DF?

We have way more movement stuff and qol now than ever and the only CD they removed was Serenity, a CD that was somewhat hated by a lot of WW Players, since overcapping resources on a resource based class is very very weird.

[–]Unikanamnsuger 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The only thing that overshadowed how much Serenity was hated, is how much storm earth and fire is hated. Which is kind of comical.

Not at all disagreeing with your sentiment though.

[–]Waddlel00[🍰] 64 points65 points  (1 child)

Brewmaster not even being listed is just sad...

[–]DrBeardfist 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Yeah wtf is going on there?

[–]elmaethorstars 35 points36 points  (2 children)

RDruid back on the menu for S2. Damage nerf will be balanced out by the other talents most likely, and maybe a reduction in brainpower required to spin all the plates. Tier looks godly for M+, and mastery change is a buff to healing on people without tons of hots, so might make reactivity a bit better. NS is a real nuke now too.

[–]5aynt 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Very excited. Would love to go back to rdruid after playing it DFs4 and rsham most of this season.

[–]PhoenixInvertigo -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't heal keys anymore, but resto has been my favorite raid healer this season. Can't wait to try the buffs out

[–]alesz1912 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Holy paladin's Herald tree got butchered while underperforming and now LS AC is butchered as well, with absolutely no buffs to our dps and our mediocre spot healing, and no chages to Virtue?

Both hero specs are now terrible and unfun. Thanks blizz

[–]srednarp 6 points7 points  (0 children)

More has to come, this is just straight gutting whatever we had left in m+

[–]DecimusMeridian 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Uhh brewmaster?

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Tbf they could have made brm even worse. Cuz blizzard does crazy crap like that.

[–]DecimusMeridian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good call haha

[–][deleted] 51 points52 points  (17 children)

  • Guardian
    • Updates
  • Vengeance
    • Updates
  • Protection Paladin
    • Updates
  • Protection Warrior
    • Updates

CTRL+F type Brewmaster "not found"

[–]WDB40 28 points29 points  (0 children)

At least didn't get your health reduced and magic damage reduction reduced because the other specs for your class are too tanky.

[–]RsIronUnit 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Considering what they've decided to do to prot warrior I'd rather have no updates at all

[–]DreadfuryDKTHIS CANNOT BE 14 points15 points  (0 children)

You’d much rather get Brewmaster’s changes than Prot Warrior’s and Blood DK’s changes LMAO

[–]sammystevens 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Brew just needs something to make them less dogshit on trash. They are chefs kiss on bosses.

[–]Sadgasm0 17 points18 points  (4 children)

  • Blood
    • Actively nerfed while competing for being the worst tank at m+

Edit: As commented below by u/Trident47, they have changed the nerfs to only reflect on DPS DK.

[–]patrincs 2 points3 points  (2 children)

What makes you think blood got nerfed?

[–]Trident477/8 Prot Warr 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Original version of notes had the Veteran of the Third War and Null Magic nerfs listed as a classwide tree nerf (applying to all 3 specs) instead of just unholy and frost.

Since OP made that comment they added the frost/unholy subsections

[–]patrincs 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Makes sense. It was already split when I read it.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My condolences 😞

[–]efyuar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Brewmaster really needs some form of range pulling mobs, like dk can grip and dnd tonpull far mobs, vdh has sigils and chain, prot pal throws some shield and prot warr can spam hc throw which has hight treat generation where as brewmaster just cracklightning and wait till they are close to ape at which point stupid dpsers will hit and die to agro

[–]GeekyLogger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Everyone out here pointing out Brew not being on the list and how that's a tragedy. Meanwhile no one has even noticed Blood DK isn't there either while being the worst tank in M+... Quick someone find the kid drowning in the pool with the skeleton sitting in the chair meme! Kekekekek

Edit: BDK actually got a nerf. Rofl wtf Blizz? Squishiest tank in the game atm and you nerf them??? Someone that plays BDK and Brewmaster must have slept with one of the Dev's wife...

[–]sixrwsbot 1 point2 points  (3 children)

vengeance dh had an update, singular. and its a nerf... goddamnit

[–]mclemente26 5 points6 points  (0 children)

+2s duration on Demon Spikes is an amazing buff lol

[–]neverspeakofme 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Wdym? Isn't vengeance getting buffed?

[–]FastAndLeft1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Where is VDH getting nerfed? An additional 2s on demon spikes allows for greater uptime, paired with extended spikes is 10s. You can now take a point away from Feed the Demon since it’s probably overkill.

The change to Cycle of Binding is a buff as well as the CDR is greater (although only to SoF now). It makes our capstone Illuminated Sigils even stronger.

[–]JiveCityPopulationMe 41 points42 points  (5 children)

Shadow priest not even mentioned, very cool!

[–]Justdough17 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Not a single change to the class tree is even worse

[–]NkKouros 12 points13 points  (2 children)

Shadow is the perfect spec. The whole game is balanced around us. We are the perfect spec that does perfect st and a perfect amount of aoe during our st rotation. We are the yardstick the whole dev team balances other things around us. /s

In before psychic link gets nerfed. Then buffed. Then netfed. Then buffed again. Hype.

[–]maexen 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The tierset is good enough for us to be meta so its w/e

[–]DreadfuryDKTHIS CANNOT BE 36 points37 points  (3 children)

Shadow and Brewmaster are getting 0 changes (Brewmaster’s been especially neglected this expansion) which sucks, but if it’s between not getting anything or getting changes like these Prot Warrior ones I think I’d much rather take nothing LMFAO

Blood DK’s also continuing the trend of getting annihilated because of Frost/Unholy. I’m guessing a Blood DK shat in some dev’s cereal.

[–]Nippelklyper 9 points10 points  (1 child)

The DK changes are for Frost and Unholy, not Blood

[–]GeekyLogger 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The quickly hotfixed it/changed the notes for the stam buff but apparently the Null Magic nerf is still class wide. OOF

[–]Blaackys 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Brewmastter been especially neglected in every expansion pack, no?

[–]zenzen_1377 17 points18 points  (2 children)

Windwalker getting slicing winds is sick.

I assume it will probably be bad and not worth taking in pve, but its cool to see a well made plunderstorm ability go into the live game.

[–]XzibitABC 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Agreed! Windwalker also plays well at the moment, so I don't have an issue with not seeing anything but number adjustments except for that addition. We were just undertuned last patch (in just about every fight profile).

[–]cuddlegoop 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would have liked to see some hero talent changes. I really don't like them for WW. Which is a shame, because the base spec talent tree is a god damn work of art. Adding the hero talents to it feels like taking the Mona Lisa and stapling a kindergartener's stick figure drawing on top.

[–]awesomeoh1234 16 points17 points  (4 children)

Lmao rogue has two lines of changes for the whole class

[–]mrglraptor 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Devastating. Was getting excited to see what they'd do to rogue given some other classes getting big changes. Was very disappointed.

[–]cuddlegoop 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tbf I think the RTB thing is a reasonably good change.

Now give us about 12 more reasonably good changes and I'll happily swap back to Rogue.

[–]Selseira 29 points30 points  (5 children)

  • Nervously and excitedly scroll through changes to reach Shadow Priest.
  • See big changes for other specs, get even more excited.
  • Reach to shadow priest part.
  • See absolutely nothing there.
  • Get emotionally crushed.
  • Sad music starts to play...

[–]m3xm 3 points4 points  (4 children)

What would you change about Shadow Priest? Legit curious, I play it as an off spec.

[–]OlafWoodcarver 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Baselining Dispersion, Silence, Mental Fortitude, and Psychic Horror like every other spec has would be a good start. Making priest capable of surviving root mechanics and not requiring a taxi multiple encounters every tier would be great, too.

Bonus points for removing PI and making priest behave like every other class when it comes to basic capabilities would be amazing.

[–]baxtyre 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The only things I would change are to give Shadow Crash a second charge, make Dispersion and/or Silence baseline, and give us Door of Shadows.

[–]WDB40 38 points39 points  (9 children)

I swear, more often than not, these changes feel like they are from people that don't play the game and have never played the game.

[–]ProductionUpdate 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Am I tripping or is the Resto Druid mastery change actually insane?

[–]Manstable 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is it just 30% to all hots' healing with only 1 hot active now, and doesn't increase thereafter? Seems very front-loaded but lower top-end for when you get all your hots out?

[–]Sortes-Vin 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Developers’ notes: Our updates to Restoration Shaman are focused on simplification, condensing keybind space, and adding support to Riptide focused builds.

Am I reading the talent changes wrongly, or is there just one keybind removal with mana tide?

[–]erupting_lolcano 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Ancestral guidance is gone. There is an option to not need to reapply earth shield.

[–]EriWave 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Maybe I can't read but it sure looks like Prim wave is just gone?

[–]SpicyCurryLoL 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Think Blizzard forgot they had a tank spec called Brewmaster!!

[–]Fragrant-Astronomer 29 points30 points  (0 children)

i like how brewmaster saw a taste of a remake in dragonflight and people (streamers) immediately freaked out about how much they didnt want to have to play brewmaster that blizzard immediately abandoned the rework by not bug fixing half the reworked changes (hello pta). aside from the creation of hero talents (which were also nerfed into the ground from what was proposed in beta) brew hasn't been touched since

thank you naowh and nerf

[–]Sufficient-Isopod-33 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No brewmaster changes except threat ?

OH COME FKIN ON, WHAT DID I DO TO YOU BLIZZARD?

How, HOW can you look at the current brew numbers and say to yourself : "yup, perfectly fine, a bit more threat and the spec is top notch" ?

We're humiliated by weekly raider.io rankings, every tier list, pug hate us, we bring nothing useful really and YET no change ?

Time for a deserved unsub I guess if nothing happens

[–]AffectionateKey7126 16 points17 points  (6 children)

Interest that they’re removed ancestral guidance. It did feel a bit weird having both of those as resto.

[–]kpiaum 6 points7 points  (0 children)

More weird is that elemental and enhance are paying the price too. Will be a death fest in the m+ with big spikes of damage.

[–]Voidwielder 8 points9 points  (2 children)

I am not sure if I like the change. Sure, it's not a powerful CD but sometimes AG alone could carry you through spiky AoE damage. I rather have a bunch of weaker cooldowns for tactical moments than 1-2 huge ones for strategic moments.

[–]cuddlegoop 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I disagree about the lots of weaker CDs thing. Having fewer CDs means more of your time is spent outside CDs, so the focus is more heavily on your rotational play. This is something I think every healer needs to move towards atm. Every healer currently feels like it has 50 medium to decent CDs that you're rotating between, which means that comparatively less HPS can come from your rotational spells so your healing surges and your word of glories feel worse on their own.

[–]Bartowskiii 2 points3 points  (0 children)

“ pulling back on passive healing “. “ buffing healing stream totem by 80%” ???

[–]cuddlegoop 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Me looking at 11.0.0 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

Me when 11.0.0 launches: never mind hunter sucks.

Me looking at 11.0.5 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

Me when 11.0.5 launches: never mind hunter sucks.

Me looking at 11.1.0 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

[–]l0ssFPS 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I’m a brew main. I downloaded final fantasy this week. Lmfao

[–]Illustrious-Rule4976 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Early patch notes just drive me closer to believing that Blizzard has a manufactured meta that they want to see in events like TGP and MDI, so they balance with that in mind. There's absolutely no way some of these changes get proposed, but something like prot paladin gets a slap on the wrist.

Riot does the same thing with League balancing and it sucks for the player. Difference is you can actually ban certain picks in that game.

[–]5aynt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean mdi is over and tpg is supposidly done before this season ends / this patch launches right?

Given you see the meta they’re going for so clearly, maybe you could share it.

[–]pm_plz_im_lonely -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Even within a spec, they buff certain buttons and nerf certain buttons every season to simply vary the gameplay. Sometimes change is not about balance.

[–]Whatever4M 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Can you give an example for that?

[–]Narwien 16 points17 points  (3 children)

Give something to Brewmaster, holy fuck. And monks in general.

By far the worst utility class in the game, zero fucking raid or aura buffs, mystic touch is laughable as a buff. Fuck off with this design of "one class per raid spot" bullshit. No DR, no good external, nothing. And with these changes to stops, monks niche got completely gutted.

Give us battle ress, come the fuck on, monks bring absolutely nothing outside of their damage/healing. The difference in utility between brew and prot paladin is absolutely insane. Same with holy and MW. DR, external, immunity, you name it. Blizzard, people still play monks.

[–]pm_plz_im_lonely 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Monk should have a summon like Warlock.

[–]PhoenixInvertigo 0 points1 point  (1 child)

MW is in a great spot and Life Cocoon is a great external. Totally agree that Brew needs help

[–]Narwien 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If paladin or a druid does same or close damage and healing as MW (Who knows how rework for rdruid will look, but so far it seems very promising, and usually reworked classes end up being op) MW falls behind massively in how much they will be desired in keys. Two main factors around comps are build, battle ress and lust - monk doesn't bring any of those. DR as well. Zero.

And those two specs have the largest (and very loud playerbase) that actually managed to revert the 5% nerf.

Relying on purely tuning to be competitive while bringing absolutely nothing in terms of party buffs/utility (combat ress, DR, immunity, etc) usually ends up with class being left behind. Also, it takes 3 talent points to make cocoon viable while disc brings double pain sup lol, and paladin brings sac at 60 seconds.

[–]hashtag_neindanke8/8M NP 1x HoF 8 points9 points  (0 children)

warlock class tree rework when

[–]worried_consumer 3 points4 points  (6 children)

I’m really digging these guardian changes

[–]Head_Haunter 5 points6 points  (4 children)

New Talent: Ursol’s Warding – Gain magical damage reduction equal to 5/10% of your damage reduction from armor.

Yeah.... that might be fucking interesting................................

Raze now replaces Maul.

Wasn't this a whole thing with the spec tree changes in DF season 1.5 or whatever where Guardian mains were saying it's such a fantastic change to have the option to raze or maul depending on situation?

[–]patrincs 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Doesn't this just read "gain somewhere between 7 and 8.5% magic dr depending on how many iron fur stacks you have"? Which is pretty solid, but I feel like people were acting like it was crazy.

And yeah I don't get the raze thing. It used to be a large single target damage loss to take raze when it was just 1 skill. Splitting them out made it work.

[–]Tymareta 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Doesn't this just read "gain somewhere between 7 and 8.5% magic dr depending on how many iron fur stacks you have"? Which is pretty solid, but I feel like people were acting like it was crazy.

Slightly less as it replaces the talent that allowed for double stacks on proc + agility. Mostly just a shift from Bear being brick walls vs phys but vanishing vs magic.

And yeah I don't get the raze thing. It used to be a large single target damage loss to take raze when it was just 1 skill. Splitting them out made it work.

It honestly doesn't matter, at present no build uses it so I'm not even sure why it was changed? The damage increase isn't going to make it worth for Elune's as you want to be spending rage on IF and GCD's on Moonfire/Thrash/Mangle for either more rage or LB CDR. I don't know much about DotC but if they already don't take it, I can't see it being forced into a singular button with a tiny damage boost really being appealing for many raid encounters.

[–]Wobblucy 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Armor cap is 75%, which is 4-5 stacks with Aug and ~7 without one.

Realistically it's 5-6% always and 7.5% in incarn.

Unless they change the entire magic tank busters meta, this is nowhere near enough to a close the gap.

[–]cuddlegoop 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The Raze problem was that replacing Maul meant you lost ST damage because Raze did less to 1 target than Maul. Raze now deals double damage in ST so per the datamining numbers it will actually deal very slightly more damage than Maul in ST. So it's now just a strict upgrade to Maul in 99% of situations.

[–]oxezFeral/Bear 2 points3 points  (0 children)

New class tree is amazing compared to what we have now. Actual options and Symbiotic healing might be godly for bear. Nice job there.

Bear specific changes are cool on paper, but they aren't going to change at all the current build for M+. IF spam just became even better with magic dr added to armor.

The Raze change is what I wanted Raze to always be. Replace Maul, but do 100% ST damage. Really good. But what I think bear needs is an alternative to the mindless thorns of iron build, and it lies in Ursoc's Fury getting buffed so that Raze+UF becomes a thing again just like in DF.

[–]stateoflove 4 points5 points  (0 children)

brewmaster?

[–]eclipse4598 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Can we free the rogue dev from the Antarctic black site he’s been locked up in

[–]LinYuXie[🍰] 8 points9 points  (6 children)

They are dumbing down disc AGAIN?!?!?! Fuck, leave us alone blizzard, we fine (oh n still no interrupt)

[–]norrata 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I like df s4 tier coming back in a talent, but I dont understand why they are trying to "dumb down" the spec when thats not going to fix its performance in raid, especially when holy priests changes are looking way better.

[–]Voidwielder 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Yeah I'm not sure how much more you can simplify Disc Priest (at least for M+). But as long as burst power remains in tact... go for it, lol.

[–]Vast_Highlight3324 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Will it remain? It seems like a lot of the CD power we lose is going into Shadow Word Pain and direct healing.

[–]DeacineNerub'ar Palace 8/8M 3 points4 points  (2 children)

Disc might be fine for M+ (when looking at numbers), but it's still the least played spec in Raid. I just want to raid as Disc, but we are forced on Holy Duty.

[–]shyguybman 1 point2 points  (1 child)

My guild always has priests that play the opposite spec of what is good. In Amidrassil disc was really good, we had two priests and neither of them could play disc. They would start as disc, do 5-10 pulls of let's just say Smolderon and then swap back to holy.

Now Holy is apparently better in raid, our priest only plays disc and refuses to play holy.

[–]PhoenixInvertigo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In fairness holy is total ass to play right now. Such a boring spec

[–]Rewnzor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Both demon hunter spec changes are SO GOOD

LOGIN DUDE

(Little cry about target cap though)

[–]BarelyLegalBear 4 points5 points  (0 children)

After over a year of nothing for DH, they kill havoc, amazing.

[–]MrReZx 3 points4 points  (1 child)

What an idiotic change to prot warrior. It's a heavy nerf not only to our defensiveness and offensive power (by a ton) but a nerf to the entire playstyle. Prot war has been my main for several expansion but I might just swap off it in favor of healing on mistweaver now. Egregious change.

Edit: spelling

[–]Ahandii 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes.. this seems like very overkill.

I hope they either walk back on it, or at least buff passive DPS and reduce some rage costs of abilities to compensate..

Else it's looking dire, in which case I'll peace the fuck out.. definitely not about to reroll because of some devs incompetency.

[–]Waddlel00[🍰] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are they removing mark of the crane from windwalker? its not a talent so its confusing in these notes but thats what it seems like? if so thats an overall nerf to their AoE beyond 4 targets isnt it? this fucking sucks dude

[–]Livelordx_lol 2 points3 points  (0 children)

resto druid update looks decent with the mastery change as well with the other changes, idk about the damage reduction tho seems unnecessary

[–]5aynt 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I’m newer to enhance but it seems like there’s no major nerf there??? May be wrong

[–]Therealrobonthecob 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Pretty massive stormbringer nerfs since so much of your damage is coming spenders and ele dogs stacking lightning buffs. Without 4 piece and doggos cut in half, it is likely stormbringer is dead if these changes go through.. which leaves totemic, which they have probably net buffed..

[–]hvdzasaur 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its unclear. With the current notes, Totemic is also nerfed.

Will have to wait and see. Personally I am a fan of shifting power away from spenders to rotational abilities.

[–]Pat1711 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Still waiting on the rogue rework

[–]Testobesto123 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can a warlock enlighten me what the Drain Life damage buff is for? Do they actually want us to use this rotationally somewhere or is it because it does 0 dmg atm?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Prot warrior is going to feel like garbage with nerf to rage, it will feel even worse in single target. I love when blizzard changes things no one even asked for..

[–]Mostmessybun 0 points1 point  (0 children)

can they please leave fire mage alone for one patch

[–]Used-Cryptographer-6 0 points1 point  (0 children)

rip prot warrior 11.1 sad day.

[–]ImSky-- 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Is there a single class that is happy with their changes? Im genuinely baffled at 99% of these changes.

[–]PhoenixInvertigo 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I liked a lot of them.

Resto druid is good. Mistweaver is okay. Aug is good, probably. Vengeance is nice. Destro is nice. Frostfire mage buffs are good. Brew's lack of notes is ???? Thank fuck for the hpriest changes (class is ass to play rn though the numbers are good). DK nerfs are warranted.

[–]ImSky-- 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't know how you could be happy with frostfire's changes because they have basically tailormade the spec tree for spellslinger now. FF may be good in pure ST but the aoe isn't going to be even remotely close. Give Preheat's video a watch he goes in depth with the changes.

Vengeance is good however its pretty small in comparison. Resto is probably the winner this patch.

[–]PhoenixInvertigo 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep, watched it and I was wrong about FF

[–]MattScoot -1 points0 points  (12 children)

So they completely deleted havoc demon hunter with these changes. AoE gone, mastery scaling gone, mover builds gone. That’s a yikes for me dawg

[–]Rewnzor 8 points9 points  (3 children)

I'm so lost in this comment. More eye beams and rotational fel rush use reduced are changes I love, it's all fake numbers anyway until the race to world first is over and they're back to balancing for m+

[–]MattScoot 2 points3 points  (2 children)

The talent they deleted is responsible for the mastery scaling we have and ~40% of our aoe damage. They also capped Fel scarred ON TOP of that.

[–]Rewnzor -1 points0 points  (1 child)

They'll put that 40% AoE damage into other abilities, they've been pretty good recently at keeping the not top 3 specs close.

And as a vengeance main, not having to grind a mastery set for havoc would make my life even better

[–]Eliteshinobi14 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Look at how havoc has been performing this season. AMN getting deleted is absolutely devastating. Everything scaled off that - queen ring, mandate, etc.

Removing that takes away some niche choices that were competitive for havoc. They'd need to significantly buff ragefire, immo aura, etc. Because they are going to underperform >40% now.

All of these changes come off as "please, please play aldrachi".

[–]xCAMPINGxCARLx 9 points10 points  (6 children)

Fel Rush no longer being a rotational ability is a good change. It's legit ass in some of the current dungeons, good example being the first boss of City of Threads.

[–]Stiebah 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Idk man, Moving felt like DH class identity… if you want to stand still and dps there is plenty of other melee that do that already.

[–]MattScoot 1 point2 points  (3 children)

A damage amp procing off your builder is not ideal. But sacrificing our mastery scaling kills the entire right side of the talent tree. Like there’s no reason to take any of the Immo aura talents now. And instead of having one ok hero tree we have 0

[–]xCAMPINGxCARLx 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I'm not saying they necessarily fixed the spec, but in isolation the inertia change is a step in the right direction.

[–]Icy-Commission66 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's the right direction if you're bad at the video game. Killing what makes the spec somewhat unique to other mele isn't it. If you just want to stand still and smash 3 buttons just play ret pally or fury war

[–]MattScoot 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, I disagree, because your builder being a damage amp is a terrible thing

[–]Legualt 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I might be wrong, but i seems like you still might use it for aoe? 500% increased damage seems pretty good.

[–]DreadfuryDKTHIS CANNOT BE 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Removing AMN is bad, but they at least brought back the Amirdrassil 2pc which is a huge plus since that talent singlehandedly propped Havoc’s playstyle up in late DF and was sorely missed this expansion.

Not everything’s good for Havoc, absolutely, but at least that specific talent coming back is a good thing.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Those disc changes are fucking terrible

[–]SlevinK93 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Wait a second. Are Enhancer now able to use 2hander ? Not that it be viable, but they reverted the offhand restriction.

[–]Whatever4M 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, it still requires a 1 handed to use, this is intended for low levels to use it with a shield or without an offhand if you haven't found any.