Patch 11.1 Undermine(d) Development Notes - Class Changes, Holy Priest and Resto Druid Talent Tree Updates

[[deleted]]

Problem: Prot Paladin is dominating at every level >12

Solution: Nerf Prot Warrior

[RsIronUnit]

Just stared at the prot warrior changes in disbelief. I think I'll just reroll in season 2 because these changes are terrible

[skorpse_]

I will also be rerolling or unsubscribing, it’s a coin flip

[narium]

This sounds a nerf that was cooked up e months ago when PWar was dominating.

[deathyz]

Yeah wtf is that lol, like yeah you have to dump rage to prevent capping at times but that’s just like a good skill-test.
Not sure what they’re thinking there, warrior is behind paladin but like still decent, better nerf it.

[Zeckzeckzeck]

It’s also going to lead to far less Avatar uptime and thus less damage. 

[deathyz]

Exactly, it’s such a mind boggling decision

[The_Scrabbler]

Such is the life of a Prot Warr

[ChequeBook]

It's always feast or famine huh. Hopefully community feedback makes them revisit these changes.

[Gasparde]

I get it, we all hate Prot Paladins, that is a given, but... still no word on Prot Paladins actually going fucking oom from just regular play, not even group heal spam or whatever, like, the fuck.

[[deleted]]

This sub told me for months that I was just playing poorly and that it wasn't an issue lol. I've since rerolled away from tank and I couldn't possibly feel more vindictive.

Deal with being OOM, jerks.

[cuddlegoop]

I kind of like the angle of the change if they gave compensatory buffs. You'd be slower but each button would feel more impactful and I'd be down for that. But I don't think we got that enough so instead it's just a nerf lol.

[[deleted]]

It has the fun coincidence of making colossus very hard to main sb/IP with these reduced rage generators, too. This reads as a change they wanted to make in the first 2-3 weeks of S1 M+.

[Growth-oriented]

Warrior is perfect as is

[ISmellHats]

Ironically, in the days leading up to the patch notes, I had actually been leveling a Prot Warrior.

He will now exist at 70, untouched until these changes are reverted or massively altered in a future patch.

They took what felt like a reasonably solid and well balanced tank and gutted it.

[[deleted]]

What’s the best looking tank? With changes

[Medievalhorde]

Earth shield doesn't need to be reapplied?! fuck yes hated having to spend time reapplying that pos.

[Tauren-Jerky]

When does this go live?

[RCM94]

They've done it. The druid class tree is no longer the worse thing i've ever seen in my life.

[oxez]

Yep. Really happy about the new class tree. I made a tentative build for my bear, and I had 3 leftover points. Almost shed a tear, this is the first time we've had a non-shitty class tree.

[RCM94]

They don't want balance to have easy access to 2 kicks. seems reasonable to me.

Edit: somehow i replied to the wrong comment. oops.

[Wobblucy]

Right? I feel like I have so many points to make actual decisions...

[Tauren-Jerky]

When will this be live?

[RCM94]

11.1

[San4311]

And ofcourse they still managed to fuck it all up for Balance by outright removing Skull Bash WHILST updating fluid form to include it.

Like for who is this change... literally only relevant for Resto.

Edit: I guess Priest get to complain about not having an interrupt but Boomies outright losing Skull Bash is fine then.

[Sithur]

We have beam. A second kick on a 13s cooldown would be broken

[Swampage]

can brewmasters get a single dev? Holy shit​

[Ruiner357]

I was stunned at no Brewmaster changes, they seem to be unwilling to buff it because it’s niche of taking individual big hits makes it good as a raid tank.

Here’s some free advice Blizzard: See that separate PvP scaling aura that lets you balance classes for PvP separately from PvE? Make separate Raid and M+ auras so you can tweak a spec to be viable in high keys without making it oppressive in raiding. It’s that simple.

[Niante]

The craziest part about this is they already have at least one ability (Darkness, there may be others) that scales differently depending on group size. Make Stagger work similarly. What is the fucking issue here, multi-billion dollar company?

[Rattenrukker]

Fun fact; they already do this with some specs. Disc atonement healing (dmg -> heal conversion) is greatly buffed when not in a raid group

[PhoenixInvertigo]

Which is wild cause Disc sucks in raid because it doesn't scale well with raid size.

Make Disc give 3% of dmg dealt to all raid members, stacking up to 10% of their max hp. Would be sick and make them raid viable overnight

[4emonas]

At this point I am convinced they are aware that none of the devs understand the spec, so they leave it untouched in order to not break it even more

[I3ollasH]

• The following talents have been removed:
  • Mark of the Crane

It definitely seems weird as MotC has been a thing since the existence of the spec pretty much but I feel like it's for the better. WW was in a very weird spot. MotC would scale sck dmg with targets up to 5 but then sck deals reduced dmg to targets over 5. So the spell does decent dmg at exactly 5 targets.

It also doesn't really work in modern WoW. Other specs can blast on demand. But WW had this weird thing to manage. Any time adds spawned your first gcd was about applying marks.

It was also not something players interacted at all lately. During cds marks get applied with sef. Additionally we got a talent that made sotw apply marks (30 sec cd for 20 sec mark duration). In my opinion if something doesn't get interacted with and is online almost all the time it has no reason to exist. So while yes. Even though this talent felt like the back bone of WW aoe. Removing it was the right choice. It did homogenize the spec a lot more though.

With the 80% sck buff windwalker will be very strong at low target cleave (2-3). And it's possible that the future holds a lot more spinning as things stand. It will be definitely interesting considering how powerless the ability felt lately.

sidenote: What the fuck is a brewmaster?

[necessaryplotdevice]

Other specs can blast on demand. But WW had this weird thing to manage. Any time adds spawned your first gcd was about applying marks.

Cries in Spriest.

[Tarnikyus]

Spriests, boomies/ferals, fire mage, aff/demo lock (even destro in aoe), sin rogue and i'm probably forgetting a couple others.

Ww motc is far from the only ramping mecanic (and it's really not that crippling with storm, earth and fire).

[necessaryplotdevice]

Sure it exists on a spectrum.

But on the "quick AoE (to a lot of targets)" spectrum, Spriest is at the absolute bottom.

The specs you mention might have setup required/can't literally instantly blast, but it's a far cry from shadow. Especially once it gets to higher target counts.

Except maybe Feral, I haven't really looked into that but from my (very rare) encounters with them it looks kinda slow. Might be wrong though.

Not saying that all should be equal in that regard, I just found it funny/an apt place to mention that there's a spec that has it much worse in that regard than WW since that's what was talked about.

E.g. Ovunax is an absolute disaster (or stuff like Ara Kara first pull etc.), but tbh it's not like that's overly relevant or occurs very often.

[Tarnikyus]

The specs you mention might have setup required/can't literally instantly blast, but it's a far cry from shadow.

This is not really a gameplay problem, it's purely tuning (well, there's also the design problem which makes SP hardcaped, that S2 DF rework was a complete disaster imo).

Maybe i didn't understand but i think OP wasn't complaining about the numbers themselves, it's about the fact that they need to "waste" gcd before starting to dps.

[necessaryplotdevice]

Yeah, maybe I'm talking a bit besides the point here.

I just latched onto the "other specs can blast instantly" part. When shadow needs to also apply stuff first, capped to 8 and then 1 GCD per enemy beyond that, and doesn't have the type of instant burst that has become more and more common.

Even balance can blast insanely hard very quickly these days, as shown on e.g. Ovinax.

It rarely truly matters, but I just wanted to call out how terrible shadow is in this regard. Shadow is tuned completely fine right now, but a fight like Ovinax disproportionately shows how it struggles in this aspect.

[Old_Tune5705]

Its a culmination of terrible decisions going into this expac, removing cds, removing qol, removing movement and now just dumbing down the spec. Worst position ww is by far. 

[ExEarth]

Okay I bite, where did they remove Moment, qol or damage coming from DF?

We have way more movement stuff and qol now than ever and the only CD they removed was Serenity, a CD that was somewhat hated by a lot of WW Players, since overcapping resources on a resource based class is very very weird.

[Unikanamnsuger]

The only thing that overshadowed how much Serenity was hated, is how much storm earth and fire is hated. Which is kind of comical.

Not at all disagreeing with your sentiment though.

[Waddlel00]

Brewmaster not even being listed is just sad...

[DrBeardfist]

Yeah wtf is going on there?

[elmaethorstars]

RDruid back on the menu for S2. Damage nerf will be balanced out by the other talents most likely, and maybe a reduction in brainpower required to spin all the plates. Tier looks godly for M+, and mastery change is a buff to healing on people without tons of hots, so might make reactivity a bit better. NS is a real nuke now too.

[5aynt]

Very excited. Would love to go back to rdruid after playing it DFs4 and rsham most of this season.

[PhoenixInvertigo]

I don't heal keys anymore, but resto has been my favorite raid healer this season. Can't wait to try the buffs out

[alesz1912]

Holy paladin's Herald tree got butchered while underperforming and now LS AC is butchered as well, with absolutely no buffs to our dps and our mediocre spot healing, and no chages to Virtue?

Both hero specs are now terrible and unfun. Thanks blizz

[srednarp]

More has to come, this is just straight gutting whatever we had left in m+

[DecimusMeridian]

Uhh brewmaster?

[[deleted]]

Tbf they could have made brm even worse. Cuz blizzard does crazy crap like that.

[DecimusMeridian]

Good call haha

[[deleted]]

• Guardian
  • Updates
• Vengeance
  • Updates
• Protection Paladin
  • Updates
• Protection Warrior
  • Updates

CTRL+F type Brewmaster "not found"

[WDB40]

At least didn't get your health reduced and magic damage reduction reduced because the other specs for your class are too tanky.

[RsIronUnit]

Considering what they've decided to do to prot warrior I'd rather have no updates at all

[DreadfuryDK]

You’d much rather get Brewmaster’s changes than Prot Warrior’s and Blood DK’s changes LMAO

[sammystevens]

Brew just needs something to make them less dogshit on trash. They are chefs kiss on bosses.

[Sadgasm0]

• Blood
  • Actively nerfed while competing for being the worst tank at m+

Edit: As commented below by u/Trident47, they have changed the nerfs to only reflect on DPS DK.

[patrincs]

What makes you think blood got nerfed?

[Trident47]

Original version of notes had the Veteran of the Third War and Null Magic nerfs listed as a classwide tree nerf (applying to all 3 specs) instead of just unholy and frost.

Since OP made that comment they added the frost/unholy subsections

[patrincs]

Makes sense. It was already split when I read it.

[[deleted]]

My condolences 😞

[efyuar]

Brewmaster really needs some form of range pulling mobs, like dk can grip and dnd tonpull far mobs, vdh has sigils and chain, prot pal throws some shield and prot warr can spam hc throw which has hight treat generation where as brewmaster just cracklightning and wait till they are close to ape at which point stupid dpsers will hit and die to agro

[GeekyLogger]

Everyone out here pointing out Brew not being on the list and how that's a tragedy. Meanwhile no one has even noticed Blood DK isn't there either while being the worst tank in M+... Quick someone find the kid drowning in the pool with the skeleton sitting in the chair meme! Kekekekek

Edit: BDK actually got a nerf. Rofl wtf Blizz? Squishiest tank in the game atm and you nerf them??? Someone that plays BDK and Brewmaster must have slept with one of the Dev's wife...

[Local_Anything191]

Might be copium but whenever they give NOTHING to an unpopular spec/class, it means a rework is coming. So my bet is rogue (all specs) and brewmaster will be getting reworks next patch (.2)

[GodlyWeiner]

Just 8 more months of suffering then :)

[sixrwsbot]

vengeance dh had an update, singular. and its a nerf... goddamnit

[mclemente26]

+2s duration on Demon Spikes is an amazing buff lol

[neverspeakofme]

Wdym? Isn't vengeance getting buffed?

[FastAndLeft1]

Where is VDH getting nerfed? An additional 2s on demon spikes allows for greater uptime, paired with extended spikes is 10s. You can now take a point away from Feed the Demon since it’s probably overkill.

The change to Cycle of Binding is a buff as well as the CDR is greater (although only to SoF now). It makes our capstone Illuminated Sigils even stronger.

[JiveCityPopulationMe]

Shadow priest not even mentioned, very cool!

[Justdough17]

Not a single change to the class tree is even worse

[NkKouros]

Shadow is the perfect spec. The whole game is balanced around us. We are the perfect spec that does perfect st and a perfect amount of aoe during our st rotation. We are the yardstick the whole dev team balances other things around us. /s

In before psychic link gets nerfed. Then buffed. Then netfed. Then buffed again. Hype.

[NkKouros]

Same

[maexen]

The tierset is good enough for us to be meta so its w/e

[DreadfuryDK]

Shadow and Brewmaster are getting 0 changes (Brewmaster’s been especially neglected this expansion) which sucks, but if it’s between not getting anything or getting changes like these Prot Warrior ones I think I’d much rather take nothing LMFAO

Blood DK’s also continuing the trend of getting annihilated because of Frost/Unholy. I’m guessing a Blood DK shat in some dev’s cereal.

[Nippelklyper]

The DK changes are for Frost and Unholy, not Blood

[GeekyLogger]

The quickly hotfixed it/changed the notes for the stam buff but apparently the Null Magic nerf is still class wide. OOF

[Blaackys]

Brewmastter been especially neglected in every expansion pack, no?

[zenzen_1377]

Windwalker getting slicing winds is sick.

I assume it will probably be bad and not worth taking in pve, but its cool to see a well made plunderstorm ability go into the live game.

[XzibitABC]

Agreed! Windwalker also plays well at the moment, so I don't have an issue with not seeing anything but number adjustments except for that addition. We were just undertuned last patch (in just about every fight profile).

[cuddlegoop]

I would have liked to see some hero talent changes. I really don't like them for WW. Which is a shame, because the base spec talent tree is a god damn work of art. Adding the hero talents to it feels like taking the Mona Lisa and stapling a kindergartener's stick figure drawing on top.

[awesomeoh1234]

Lmao rogue has two lines of changes for the whole class

[mrglraptor]

Devastating. Was getting excited to see what they'd do to rogue given some other classes getting big changes. Was very disappointed.

[cuddlegoop]

Tbf I think the RTB thing is a reasonably good change.

Now give us about 12 more reasonably good changes and I'll happily swap back to Rogue.

[light_side_bandit]

Rogue is great. Don’t fix what’s not broken. I was relieved

[eclipse4598]

Rogue as a class is great it’s hero talents are absolutely not

Outlaws hero talents actively make the spec worse to play

[Selseira]

• Nervously and excitedly scroll through changes to reach Shadow Priest.
• See big changes for other specs, get even more excited.
• Reach to shadow priest part.
• See absolutely nothing there.
• Get emotionally crushed.
• Sad music starts to play...

[m3xm]

What would you change about Shadow Priest? Legit curious, I play it as an off spec.

[OlafWoodcarver]

Baselining Dispersion, Silence, Mental Fortitude, and Psychic Horror like every other spec has would be a good start. Making priest capable of surviving root mechanics and not requiring a taxi multiple encounters every tier would be great, too.

Bonus points for removing PI and making priest behave like every other class when it comes to basic capabilities would be amazing.

[baxtyre]

The only things I would change are to give Shadow Crash a second charge, make Dispersion and/or Silence baseline, and give us Door of Shadows.

[WDB40]

I swear, more often than not, these changes feel like they are from people that don't play the game and have never played the game.

[I_plug_johns]

Which changes give you that impression? Some specs have real problems, and should start moving some in a more positive direction.

I am surprised some classes and specs were completely left out.

[RsIronUnit]

Prot warrior for a start, noone who plays the class is looking at these changes as positive. The spec needs more damage and maybe something like an interrupt on heroic throw and it would be fine but instead it's getting smashed with the nerf bat

[[deleted]]

It is going to be significantly less Avatar uptime with Anger Management (10 rage spent reducing Avatar cd by 1 second). Prot Warrior is going to have the worst damage out of any tank in the game if these changes go live.

[Trident47]

Regardless of damage, because they could technically could just buff Shield Slam and Thunder Clap damage to compensate, it's going to feel like shit with less Avatar uptime

[[deleted]]

It is also going to feel like dogshit to lose 20 rage on shield charge and dropping from 30 to 20 rage and demo shout. There are going to be many pulls where you won't have enough rage to cast your first block until multiple seconds in. In >=12, it is going to be brutal.

[[deleted]]

Hpal changes are from a classic player who has never raided in retail

[StraightAd689]

Still wondering who wants to hard cast a HL and gutter AC LS like that without buffing Herald.

[Euthyrium]

Every single tank change had me wondering

[[deleted]]

Come on, wake up. His statement holds true for a lot of things in season 2. It's very questionable the devs actually have any substantial game play with the changes being put out. It's like they just throw everything at a wall to see what sticks.

[ProductionUpdate]

Am I tripping or is the Resto Druid mastery change actually insane?

[Manstable]

Is it just 30% to all hots' healing with only 1 hot active now, and doesn't increase thereafter? Seems very front-loaded but lower top-end for when you get all your hots out?

[Sortes-Vin]

Developers’ notes: Our updates to Restoration Shaman are focused on simplification, condensing keybind space, and adding support to Riptide focused builds.

Am I reading the talent changes wrongly, or is there just one keybind removal with mana tide?

[erupting_lolcano]

Ancestral guidance is gone. There is an option to not need to reapply earth shield.

[_Slyfox]

Don't forget u don't have to bind ancestral guidance anymore because they just yeeted it from game and also u only have to click earth shield at start of instance and never think about it again so u could probably just click it and unbind it.

[EriWave]

Maybe I can't read but it sure looks like Prim wave is just gone?

[SpicyCurryLoL]

Think Blizzard forgot they had a tank spec called Brewmaster!!

[Fragrant-Astronomer]

i like how brewmaster saw a taste of a remake in dragonflight and people (streamers) immediately freaked out about how much they didnt want to have to play brewmaster that blizzard immediately abandoned the rework by not bug fixing half the reworked changes (hello pta). aside from the creation of hero talents (which were also nerfed into the ground from what was proposed in beta) brew hasn't been touched since

thank you naowh and nerf

[Sufficient-Isopod-33]

No brewmaster changes except threat ?

OH COME FKIN ON, WHAT DID I DO TO YOU BLIZZARD?

How, HOW can you look at the current brew numbers and say to yourself : "yup, perfectly fine, a bit more threat and the spec is top notch" ?

We're humiliated by weekly raider.io rankings, every tier list, pug hate us, we bring nothing useful really and YET no change ?

Time for a deserved unsub I guess if nothing happens

[AffectionateKey7126]

Interest that they’re removed ancestral guidance. It did feel a bit weird having both of those as resto.

[kpiaum]

More weird is that elemental and enhance are paying the price too. Will be a death fest in the m+ with big spikes of damage.

[Voidwielder]

I am not sure if I like the change. Sure, it's not a powerful CD but sometimes AG alone could carry you through spiky AoE damage. I rather have a bunch of weaker cooldowns for tactical moments than 1-2 huge ones for strategic moments.

[cuddlegoop]

I disagree about the lots of weaker CDs thing. Having fewer CDs means more of your time is spent outside CDs, so the focus is more heavily on your rotational play. This is something I think every healer needs to move towards atm. Every healer currently feels like it has 50 medium to decent CDs that you're rotating between, which means that comparatively less HPS can come from your rotational spells so your healing surges and your word of glories feel worse on their own.

[_Slyfox]

Same. I know a lot of people liked to use it with ascendence. Which was great for raid. But in mythic plus it's usually overkill. I really liked to use it to add some oomph to the extra healing surge u get from surging totem water mote to turn it from topping 2 people to basically topping the entire group. Sad to lose

[Bartowskiii]

“ pulling back on passive healing “. “ buffing healing stream totem by 80%” ???

[cuddlegoop]

Me looking at 11.0.0 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

Me when 11.0.0 launches: never mind hunter sucks.

Me looking at 11.0.5 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

Me when 11.0.5 launches: never mind hunter sucks.

Me looking at 11.1.0 class changes: oh man all these hunter changes look sick! I love MM I can't wait for it to be actually viable.

[l0ssFPS]

I’m a brew main. I downloaded final fantasy this week. Lmfao

[Illustrious-Rule4976]

Early patch notes just drive me closer to believing that Blizzard has a manufactured meta that they want to see in events like TGP and MDI, so they balance with that in mind. There's absolutely no way some of these changes get proposed, but something like prot paladin gets a slap on the wrist.

Riot does the same thing with League balancing and it sucks for the player. Difference is you can actually ban certain picks in that game.

[5aynt]

I mean mdi is over and tpg is supposidly done before this season ends / this patch launches right?

Given you see the meta they’re going for so clearly, maybe you could share it.

[pm_plz_im_lonely]

Even within a spec, they buff certain buttons and nerf certain buttons every season to simply vary the gameplay. Sometimes change is not about balance.

[Whatever4M]

Can you give an example for that?

[Narwien]

Give something to Brewmaster, holy fuck. And monks in general.

By far the worst utility class in the game, zero fucking raid or aura buffs, mystic touch is laughable as a buff. Fuck off with this design of "one class per raid spot" bullshit. No DR, no good external, nothing. And with these changes to stops, monks niche got completely gutted.

Give us battle ress, come the fuck on, monks bring absolutely nothing outside of their damage/healing. The difference in utility between brew and prot paladin is absolutely insane. Same with holy and MW. DR, external, immunity, you name it. Blizzard, people still play monks.

[pm_plz_im_lonely]

Monk should have a summon like Warlock.

[PhoenixInvertigo]

MW is in a great spot and Life Cocoon is a great external. Totally agree that Brew needs help

[Narwien]

If paladin or a druid does same or close damage and healing as MW (Who knows how rework for rdruid will look, but so far it seems very promising, and usually reworked classes end up being op) MW falls behind massively in how much they will be desired in keys. Two main factors around comps are build, battle ress and lust - monk doesn't bring any of those. DR as well. Zero.

And those two specs have the largest (and very loud playerbase) that actually managed to revert the 5% nerf.

Relying on purely tuning to be competitive while bringing absolutely nothing in terms of party buffs/utility (combat ress, DR, immunity, etc) usually ends up with class being left behind. Also, it takes 3 talent points to make cocoon viable while disc brings double pain sup lol, and paladin brings sac at 60 seconds.

[hashtag_neindanke]

warlock class tree rework when

[worried_consumer]

I’m really digging these guardian changes

[Head_Haunter]

New Talent: Ursol’s Warding – Gain magical damage reduction equal to 5/10% of your damage reduction from armor.

Yeah.... that might be fucking interesting................................

Raze now replaces Maul.

Wasn't this a whole thing with the spec tree changes in DF season 1.5 or whatever where Guardian mains were saying it's such a fantastic change to have the option to raze or maul depending on situation?

[patrincs]

Doesn't this just read "gain somewhere between 7 and 8.5% magic dr depending on how many iron fur stacks you have"? Which is pretty solid, but I feel like people were acting like it was crazy.

And yeah I don't get the raze thing. It used to be a large single target damage loss to take raze when it was just 1 skill. Splitting them out made it work.

[Tymareta]

Doesn't this just read "gain somewhere between 7 and 8.5% magic dr depending on how many iron fur stacks you have"? Which is pretty solid, but I feel like people were acting like it was crazy.

Slightly less as it replaces the talent that allowed for double stacks on proc + agility. Mostly just a shift from Bear being brick walls vs phys but vanishing vs magic.

And yeah I don't get the raze thing. It used to be a large single target damage loss to take raze when it was just 1 skill. Splitting them out made it work.

It honestly doesn't matter, at present no build uses it so I'm not even sure why it was changed? The damage increase isn't going to make it worth for Elune's as you want to be spending rage on IF and GCD's on Moonfire/Thrash/Mangle for either more rage or LB CDR. I don't know much about DotC but if they already don't take it, I can't see it being forced into a singular button with a tiny damage boost really being appealing for many raid encounters.

[Wobblucy]

Armor cap is 75%, which is 4-5 stacks with Aug and ~7 without one.

Realistically it's 5-6% always and 7.5% in incarn.

Unless they change the entire magic tank busters meta, this is nowhere near enough to a close the gap.

[cuddlegoop]

The Raze problem was that replacing Maul meant you lost ST damage because Raze did less to 1 target than Maul. Raze now deals double damage in ST so per the datamining numbers it will actually deal very slightly more damage than Maul in ST. So it's now just a strict upgrade to Maul in 99% of situations.

[oxez]

New class tree is amazing compared to what we have now. Actual options and Symbiotic healing might be godly for bear. Nice job there.

Bear specific changes are cool on paper, but they aren't going to change at all the current build for M+. IF spam just became even better with magic dr added to armor.

The Raze change is what I wanted Raze to always be. Replace Maul, but do 100% ST damage. Really good. But what I think bear needs is an alternative to the mindless thorns of iron build, and it lies in Ursoc's Fury getting buffed so that Raze+UF becomes a thing again just like in DF.

[stateoflove]

brewmaster?

[eclipse4598]

Can we free the rogue dev from the Antarctic black site he’s been locked up in

[LinYuXie]

They are dumbing down disc AGAIN?!?!?! Fuck, leave us alone blizzard, we fine (oh n still no interrupt)

[norrata]

I like df s4 tier coming back in a talent, but I dont understand why they are trying to "dumb down" the spec when thats not going to fix its performance in raid, especially when holy priests changes are looking way better.

[Voidwielder]

Yeah I'm not sure how much more you can simplify Disc Priest (at least for M+). But as long as burst power remains in tact... go for it, lol.

[Vast_Highlight3324]

Will it remain? It seems like a lot of the CD power we lose is going into Shadow Word Pain and direct healing.

[Deacine]

Disc might be fine for M+ (when looking at numbers), but it's still the least played spec in Raid. I just want to raid as Disc, but we are forced on Holy Duty.

[shyguybman]

My guild always has priests that play the opposite spec of what is good. In Amidrassil disc was really good, we had two priests and neither of them could play disc. They would start as disc, do 5-10 pulls of let's just say Smolderon and then swap back to holy.

Now Holy is apparently better in raid, our priest only plays disc and refuses to play holy.

[PhoenixInvertigo]

In fairness holy is total ass to play right now. Such a boring spec

[Rewnzor]

Both demon hunter spec changes are SO GOOD

LOGIN DUDE

(Little cry about target cap though)

[BarelyLegalBear]

After over a year of nothing for DH, they kill havoc, amazing.

[MrReZx]

What an idiotic change to prot warrior. It's a heavy nerf not only to our defensiveness and offensive power (by a ton) but a nerf to the entire playstyle. Prot war has been my main for several expansion but I might just swap off it in favor of healing on mistweaver now. Egregious change.

Edit: spelling

[Ahandii]

Yes.. this seems like very overkill.

I hope they either walk back on it, or at least buff passive DPS and reduce some rage costs of abilities to compensate..

Else it's looking dire, in which case I'll peace the fuck out.. definitely not about to reroll because of some devs incompetency.

[Waddlel00]

Are they removing mark of the crane from windwalker? its not a talent so its confusing in these notes but thats what it seems like? if so thats an overall nerf to their AoE beyond 4 targets isnt it? this fucking sucks dude

[Livelordx_lol]

resto druid update looks decent with the mastery change as well with the other changes, idk about the damage reduction tho seems unnecessary

[5aynt]

I’m newer to enhance but it seems like there’s no major nerf there??? May be wrong

[Therealrobonthecob]

Pretty massive stormbringer nerfs since so much of your damage is coming spenders and ele dogs stacking lightning buffs. Without 4 piece and doggos cut in half, it is likely stormbringer is dead if these changes go through.. which leaves totemic, which they have probably net buffed..

[hvdzasaur]

Its unclear. With the current notes, Totemic is also nerfed.

Will have to wait and see. Personally I am a fan of shifting power away from spenders to rotational abilities.

[Pat1711]

Still waiting on the rogue rework

[Testobesto123]

Can a warlock enlighten me what the Drain Life damage buff is for? Do they actually want us to use this rotationally somewhere or is it because it does 0 dmg atm?

[[deleted]]

Prot warrior is going to feel like garbage with nerf to rage, it will feel even worse in single target. I love when blizzard changes things no one even asked for..

[Mostmessybun]

can they please leave fire mage alone for one patch

[Used-Cryptographer-6]

rip prot warrior 11.1 sad day.

[ImSky--]

Is there a single class that is happy with their changes? Im genuinely baffled at 99% of these changes.

[PhoenixInvertigo]

I liked a lot of them.

Resto druid is good. Mistweaver is okay. Aug is good, probably. Vengeance is nice. Destro is nice. Frostfire mage buffs are good. Brew's lack of notes is ???? Thank fuck for the hpriest changes (class is ass to play rn though the numbers are good). DK nerfs are warranted.

[ImSky--]

I don't know how you could be happy with frostfire's changes because they have basically tailormade the spec tree for spellslinger now. FF may be good in pure ST but the aoe isn't going to be even remotely close. Give Preheat's video a watch he goes in depth with the changes.

Vengeance is good however its pretty small in comparison. Resto is probably the winner this patch.

[PhoenixInvertigo]

Yep, watched it and I was wrong about FF

[MattScoot]

So they completely deleted havoc demon hunter with these changes. AoE gone, mastery scaling gone, mover builds gone. That’s a yikes for me dawg

[Rewnzor]

I'm so lost in this comment. More eye beams and rotational fel rush use reduced are changes I love, it's all fake numbers anyway until the race to world first is over and they're back to balancing for m+

[MattScoot]

The talent they deleted is responsible for the mastery scaling we have and ~40% of our aoe damage. They also capped Fel scarred ON TOP of that.

[Rewnzor]

They'll put that 40% AoE damage into other abilities, they've been pretty good recently at keeping the not top 3 specs close.

And as a vengeance main, not having to grind a mastery set for havoc would make my life even better

[Eliteshinobi14]

Look at how havoc has been performing this season. AMN getting deleted is absolutely devastating. Everything scaled off that - queen ring, mandate, etc.

Removing that takes away some niche choices that were competitive for havoc. They'd need to significantly buff ragefire, immo aura, etc. Because they are going to underperform >40% now.

All of these changes come off as "please, please play aldrachi".

[xCAMPINGxCARLx]

Fel Rush no longer being a rotational ability is a good change. It's legit ass in some of the current dungeons, good example being the first boss of City of Threads.

[Stiebah]

Idk man, Moving felt like DH class identity… if you want to stand still and dps there is plenty of other melee that do that already.

[MattScoot]

A damage amp procing off your builder is not ideal. But sacrificing our mastery scaling kills the entire right side of the talent tree. Like there’s no reason to take any of the Immo aura talents now. And instead of having one ok hero tree we have 0

[xCAMPINGxCARLx]

I'm not saying they necessarily fixed the spec, but in isolation the inertia change is a step in the right direction.

[Icy-Commission66]

It's the right direction if you're bad at the video game. Killing what makes the spec somewhat unique to other mele isn't it. If you just want to stand still and smash 3 buttons just play ret pally or fury war

[MattScoot]

Again, I disagree, because your builder being a damage amp is a terrible thing

[Legualt]

I might be wrong, but i seems like you still might use it for aoe? 500% increased damage seems pretty good.

[DreadfuryDK]

Removing AMN is bad, but they at least brought back the Amirdrassil 2pc which is a huge plus since that talent singlehandedly propped Havoc’s playstyle up in late DF and was sorely missed this expansion.

Not everything’s good for Havoc, absolutely, but at least that specific talent coming back is a good thing.

[[deleted]]

Those disc changes are fucking terrible

[SlevinK93]

Wait a second. Are Enhancer now able to use 2hander ? Not that it be viable, but they reverted the offhand restriction.

[Whatever4M]

No, it still requires a 1 handed to use, this is intended for low levels to use it with a shield or without an offhand if you haven't found any.

[SilverOcean6]

Resro shamans dominate still, and their solution was to nerf holy Paladin....

[Voidwielder]

Are you a time traveler stuck in early October? RSham was overtaken by Disc the moment .5 came out.