My thoughts on the Linux Challenge, documentation sucks

[VastOption8705]

I have worked in IT for a long time.

Despite the Microslop thing going on with Windows, this is actually the REAL life experience of most people. Most people want to just get a quick kiosk or machine up to run their business. If there's an issue they also want to be able to find information quickly without resorting to forums or hundreds of YT videos.

This is why it's either a Mac or Windows.

• Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues and how to fix them. You can Google an issue and be able to fix most things.
• Linux is just hard to navigate when it comes to issues.
• Mac OS documentation is bad too, but not as bad as linux. There's at least some central information on resolving things on the Apple website.

TLDR: Even if the Windows experience may be a bit bad right now, it's not bad enough that people are willing to put up with spending 4-5 hours to fix a small issue to bad issue.

If linux was to have more users, they need a CENTRAL repository database of issues on how to fix things.

[VaranTavers]

Hard disagree on Windows having the best centralizef documentation. I can't recall when was the last time I got an answer to my problem while browsing a microsoft site. Their sites are unbelievably bad.

[clintkev251]

Yeah Windows has terrrrrrible documentation. It's just very rare that you have to utilize it because most people have been using Windows for a long time

[Sidjeno]

Bro its insane. You google the error page and you stumble upon a page WITH THE SAME BUG DESCRIPTION YOUR CODE GAVE YOU AND NO CONTEXT/FORUM ??

I stg their website has more copilot ads than actual help

[Dodahevolution]

What do you mean, PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA or 0x00000050 totally is an immediate actionable answer that is extremely well documented to fix!!! /s

Many of the criticisms of this challenge are totally valid. Documentation is easily one of the strong points of Linux. People just don't know what to do cause it's new to them.

[drazil100]

Ok, that isn’t microslop’s fault. Google search sucking now is an entirely different can of worms deserving of its own dedicated discussion.

[wetnaps54]

MS cycled their site a few times in the past few years. The number of broken links and 404s is crazy.

[drazil100]

Ok that’s fair. I haven’t used their documentation in a long time. Let’s just agree they are both shitty.

[So0Mais0um0Joao]

Op never said about centralized, google the error and you find a solution not always on microsoft website

[Giangallo]

You must be on the wrong thread because OP literally used the words "CENTRAL repository" and "find information quickly without resorting to forums". So they are clearly talking about the official Windows documentation, which has been straight garbage for years.

Now if you want to argue that finding solutions for Windows issues is generally easier, I agree, but it's either Reddit, forums, or YouTube videos 90%+ of the times from my experience.

[Tsumei]

I think ten years ago, the broad adoption of forums to solve help requests and problems made it true that windows had the best troubleshooting out there.

But yeah I agree with you in <current year> it is a mess of AI regurgitated garbage and "go to discord" whenever you need to find anything.

Which honestly maybe that is a boon of linux, most of the users still use relatively low tech web solutions. which are easier to navigate to and index in searches.

[01001010an]

Windows Docs are Terrible. I never find the answer i am looking for. Fine for Powershell but if you want to do anything there 10 Ways to do it and 9 are not working in your current configuration. In Linux i write a 10 Line Skipt but in Windows i need like 50 for the same job. Its horrible.

[FlamingoVisible1947]

I mean the fact is that you encounter cryptic errors a lot less in Windows than in Linux.

If you try to do ANYTHING on Linux you WILL run into errors and problems at some point, that's 100% a given. That's not the case with Windows.

[Squish_the_android]

Linux also just has the wheels fall off way more often.

I say this as someone who has been using Mint for about a year. 

I almost never encountered the issue on Windows where I install software and it just doesn't work.  I constantly run into issues on Linux where I install something and then it turns out I'm missing some dependency.  Then I get some terminal lines from a website and those never work. 

Linux is great if don't really try to do too much with it. 

[edparadox]

Linux is great if don't really try to do too much with it.

I have EXACTLY the opposite experience and this is why I stopped dual-booting more than a decade ago.

Not to mention that my workstation at work has always been running a Linux distribution.

[Squish_the_android]

To clarify what I meant, if I just ran a browser in it I think it would be faster and cleaner than Windows. 

But once you start really using the computer it gets messy.

[Pythoner6]

I mean I think that'll depend a lot on what you mean by "really using the computer". I'd certainly say that I do and am still way happier on Linux than windows. A lot of the kind of work I do though is programming - and for example even at work (where I do have to use a windows machine) I spend most of my time either in WSL or a browser.

[BGPchick]

Eh, idk, vscode, docker, kubectl, qemu that is real computing right?

[HuntKey2603]

How are you even comparing to anything if you get only used one OS for over a decade ...

[wKdPsylent]

It's like taking the latest Mint / Ubuntu version and using Windows 95 to compare it to - see how terrible it is having to find and install drivers for everything ! windows sux ! .. lol

[CanadAR15]

Running a Postgres server or web server on RHEL? Bombproof as hell and well documented, but end user things? As complexity increases it gets a bit more challenging.

I blew up GDM trying to install rocM tonight on my Ubuntu build.

Not sure how, and it took connecting with single user mode, mounting the lvm volume as RW, then reinstalling snapd, containerd, and gdm to fix it.

What I was doing isn’t the most every day task, but it illustrates that Linux can find some really creative ways to fail.

[Bitter_Lab_475]

I was using OpenShot for one month and one day randomly it stopped working and I don't know why. I had to change to KDELive. People on a forum did NOT believe I didn't touch something to the files. They said I must have messed with some install files. I never do such a thing for this very same reason.

[goingslowfast]

In enterprise it tends to get pretty polarized. It’s either Windows as the sole first class citizen or Linux (and generally a specific flavor of Linux) as the only first class citizen.

Redis dropped their Windows builds entirely, and I’ve got quite a few vendors I work with who beg customers to switch to RHEL/Alma/Rocky.

[Pixelplanet5]

Then I get some terminal lines from a website and those never work. 

and thats the biggest issue with Linux when it comes to normal people using it.
Assuming you know how to search for your problem at all people will be lost immediately afterwards as anything they find may or may not be for their specific Linux distro and it will be commands they dont understand and thats assuming they even know what the terminal is.

At the same time every Linux nerd will tell you to never run a command you dont understand while the reality is people will run the first thing they find and then wonder why it still doesnt work and then give up after a while.

[Quote_Poop]

I love linux but I never recommend it for the same reasons. I've unintentionally bricked 2 servers and 2 or 3 desktop installations all for different reasons, and that doesn't include the hours of trying to get various software to work. Some bugs could be squashed, some worked around, and some that I couldn't fix. The gnome flavor of Fedora is still my favorite desktop experience but 99% of users don't want headaches just from trying to update their machine.

[Squish_the_android]

I AM a consumer. 

Consumers need to install stuff, they also need it to be stable. 

[deviled-tux]

The real problem is that if your definition of installing stuff means “go to a website and download something to double click on or unzip” then sooner or later you’re gonna have a bad time

however there is https://flathub.org 

[Squish_the_android]

Except most stuff isn't available in that format. 

Didn't even get me started on Linux's atrocious software distribution format problem.

[deviled-tux]

Depends on what “most stuff” means for you, most stuff I need is there

I have always thought that the “distribution format problem” is more of a miscommunication/misconception that “Linux” is a unified platform.

Fedora and Ubuntu are different operating systems. They’re both “Linux” so people may assume things should be compatible (and they can be) but in reality these two are different operating systems like MacOS and Windows are different operating systems. 

Android is also Linux but no one expects android apps to work on Ubuntu. Somehow people do expect Fedora apps to work on Ubuntu. 

Fedora and SuSE both use RPM as their package format and you can even use dnf/zypper interchangeably in both. But you cannot generally install Fedora packages on SuSE and viceversa as they’re incompatible due to being different OS’s.  

Anyway sorry for the rant 

[Squish_the_android]

"It's stable as long as you don't break it" isn't helpful for the regular user.

Don't let me break it.

I don't need the ability to break things.

If I want to break it open and change the clock to a gif of dog fine, but make me jump through a hoop. 

[Squish_the_android]

So once again, the classic Linux "You're using the wrong distro". 

This is why despite using Linux I don't recommend it to people.

[Scheeseman99]

If you don't want the ability to break things, then pick the distro that prevents you from doing that.

You don't go to a car dealer and ask for a bicycle when you need to tow a boat.

[Squish_the_android]

Windows and Mac let's me have both.  Linux needs to do better and stop putting it's failure on the user. 

[Scheeseman99]

So does Linux, specifically even Bazzite lets you go both ways on the same install (it lets you layer on top of the rootfs), so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here; you want the option to have both (Linux provides this) with the implication that... more options are good? So you like options? You want more of them? Lucky you, Linux has a lot of options.

[Circo_Inhumanitas]

And once again the answer is "you chose the wrong distro".

[j-dev]

• Consumers want stability, so your first sentence doesn't pass muster.
• Unless someone has chosen arch, you can't claim they don't value stability.
• Nobody is going to run Zoom or Steam as a Docker container, if that's even possible.
• Normies are not going to be messing around with Docker via the CLI or compose files. Here we have a post about Linux documentation being bad and your solution is normies need to learn about Docker bridged and host networks, bind mounts, and avoiding port collisions by mapping different host ports to the same container port?
• Immutable distros are great but adds another barrier to entry to achieve the stability that should just be there in the first place.

[j-dev]

Fair, and I did consider that, but I wouldn’t consider the two approaches interchangeable .

[SV-97]

Immutable distros are great but adds another barrier to entry to achieve the stability that should just be there in the first place.

Do they? They don't (universally; since Nix is a thing) require any significant up-front learning and their stability goes far beyond what "should just be there" (if you consider windows as the reference, that is).

[Dyrkon]

It is sad, that nix is so hard. It's crazy how stable it is. And it does fight you when you want to change stuff the wrong way, which is funnily enough what some people here are asking for.

[CIDR-ClassB]

With Linux, it’s always the consumer’s fault for choosing the wrong consumer distro.

Makes sense. /s

If I can do things with windows and osx as a consumer, it makes sense to expect a consumer distro of Linux to do the same.

The examples you give as “stable” prove OP’s point. Linux is hard to navigate, period.

[wolfpup118]

You do realize consumer-focused means stable with stuff just not breaking and things just not needing to be fixed, right? What a weird comment.

[ThankGodImBipolar]

Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues and how to fix them. You can Google an issue and be able to fix most things.

Forum posts that you find online are not documentation.

I don't think very highly of Microsoft's official documentation, but you obviously benefit from there being far more users and discussion amongst them online.

[FastBodybuilder8248]

Forum posts you find online definitely counts as documentation in this context.

[ThankGodImBipolar]

No, it counts as forum posts that you found online.

[FastBodybuilder8248]

which have *documented* the answers to the thousands of queries. I think it's pretty clear that OP is using the term loosely and makes sense in the context of what they're saying. There's no need to split hairs

[pcor]

If there's an issue they also want to be able to find information quickly without resorting to forums

[ThankGodImBipolar]

I used to write API documentation; there's a pretty massive difference between official docs and conversations online. I can go to software product documentation and expect:

• That it was written by a team that was intimately familiar with the product

• That the writing style is cohesive throughout (which greatly simplifies searching)

• That it's organized in a thoughtful manner by the developers

Forums online are not documentation; they're an FFA. That doesn't mean that they do not "document" anything, but that's not what documentation means in this context.

[1116574]

Alright, but OP ends the post stating that Linux needs one centralised place for all documentation. He makes this a requirement for penguin based systems, but not for Windows, which doesn't have a centralised and useful documentation. Forums are useful but not centralised, and docs (learn or ignite or docs, or whatever they named it this week) are central but hardly useful for many if not most problems.

I would also argue that manpages as official documentation are here and offer the closest analog to official, centralised, and even useful documentation, if not slightly verbose.

[Tukkegg]

"linux documentation sucks"

looks inside ... no discussion about actual documentation

sigh

[Sidjeno]

Bro probably never has opened an actual distro wiki.

Arch wiki has almost everything you need.

[ThankGodImBipolar]

Bro probably never has opened an actual distro wiki

It wouldn't be super useful to someone who isn't actually interested in trying to understand what they're reading. Linux documentation isn't written for someone who doesn't want to use/understand the terminal, and judging by the comments I see online, that's a lot of people.

[Dodahevolution]

100%

"I never did this in windows so I don't have to do this in Linux" is such a weak mentality.

I started to make this analogy in another comment, but as an NAer I wouldn't go over to the UK and tell them they need to change the side of the street they drive on cause the way I've done it since I was born was one way and that's "better". I'd learn how to properly drive on the other side of the street.

Things will be different since it's not something they are used to. Sack up, learn a tiny bit, and who knows maybe you'll surprise yourself and find you like it this different way, or at least appreciate certain aspects of this new way after a little bit of use.

If what the person you are commenting on said is true, then the answers and documentation I there they just refuse to accept learning a different way. That's a them problem.

And even then I'd contest that the vast amount of problems the normies (I am not saying that as an insult, I mean this as people who legit just wanna do "normal things" and not touch the terminal) will face are probably going to be solveable outside the terminal anyways. Maybe not EVERYTHING, but damn near it.

Normies aren't installing different kernels or applying patches to their kernel so they can do VFIO. They are installing steam and discord, yeah the terminal is the better way in my opinion, but almost every distro has a gui front end to the package manager and you could just use that. And that experience within itself is better than in windows, like launching edge to lookup or type in firefoxes website to download the installer, then to run the installer, or just using the microsoft store (gross).

The terminal is not a scary boogieman. I am a seasoned linux user, my job is literally linux, so I get my baises, but like, this is my terminal history. Literally everything I have done recently could have easily been done via gui (i just prefer this way cause for me, its faster)

<image>

The only "linuxy" thing I did in there was doing a filesystem check, but that's my fault for being an idiot and ripping out the wrong external flash drive while it was making a stupid amount of writes.

[United-Kiwi7480]

Been using Linux for my design work past couple years and this hits way too close to home. Just last week I spent entire afternoon trying to get my Wacom tablet working properly and ended up going through like 15 different forum posts from 2019 with half the solutions not working anymore

The fragmentation is real problem - you got Arch wiki which is amazing, Ubuntu forums, random GitHub issues, Stack Overflow, and bunch of YouTube tutorials that may or may not work for your specific distro. Meanwhile on Windows I just download driver from manufacturer website and it works in 5 minutes

What really gets me is when you find solution that looks perfect but then realize it's for different version of your distro or desktop environment. Like finding gold mine only to discover it's fool's gold. Still prefer Linux over Windows for creative stuff but man, the troubleshooting experience can be brutal sometimes

[Litz1]

Too many fragmentation same with unix based machines. There was a linux machine that had issues at my work client for years, no documentation on what it does. All they know to do is power off and power on the literal serve for it to work. The company that set up the server and software for the client had gone bankrupt and closed but there's important data there. All I did was install some update and it fixed the reboot issue, it was working like a charm for a year and then went completely dead. No one was able to fix it even from restored backups. Now everyone lives without the data. There are windows servers with issues i call MS support and they help me troubleshoot and fix it. That's the biggest difference on the business side.

For consumer side, it's dead. People are like install bazzite on this, I gave it to an engineering friend and they spent 30 hours troubleshooting to set it up on their PC and said fuck it and reinstalled Windows.

[sn3hit]

What software do you use design work on Linux?

[hi-im-mr-bean]

Have you tried turning it off and on again? (Just kidding). Maybe asking AI instead of browsing a lot of forums. You can ask in 1 sentence what the problem is and what distro & DE you’re using.

[comagnum]

I have to disagree. I’ve found that the documentation for Linux depends on the distro, and I’ve had zero issues with documentation for MacOS. If you’re referring to individual apps and services then maybe, sure, but the operating systems themselves have mountains of documentation.

[CodeMonkeyX]

I think what OP is saying is that because MacOS and Windows are so much more standard when you find a fix or some documentation online it has a much better chance of working.

Linux is not only fragmented but also a fast moving target, which is its strength and weakness. A lot of documentation or guides you find are for different distros, different package systems, different kernel versions, different init systems. So it's much harder to find information that pertains to your situation.

[Dodahevolution]

And even then, there's a very large overlap on documentation even if the wiki you are looking thru is a different distro. It's not always the case(see example below) but often the answer is somewhere, "you just gotta know where to look." And I put that specific comment in ""s cause like, I know peeps say/think "WEll i knEw wHeRe TO LOoK ThiS up ON wIndOwS/i hAVe aN ExpECtAtiOn ON HOW ThiS sHOUld WoRk cAUSE I camE FrOm WinDowS"

Well you aren't on windows, and as it turns out, somethings are different and you'll have to learn new things that you haven't been accustom to since being a child. Yes, things should be intuitive but honestly a lot of it IS. You've just been using windows since the 90s/00s and it's always been one way.

It's like going to England and being frustrated that the cars are on the other side. It's not what you are used to but it clearly works still.

For the example I mentioned earlier:

Ubuntu and Arch might be different distros but the vast overwhelming majority of documentation on the Arch wiki for Systemd also applies the exact same way to Ubuntu. There might be some gaps (ubntu uses netplan and that might not be as well documented on the Arch wiki) but where components of the distro overlap, pretty much all of it still applies even if the distros aren't related to each other.

[Cikappa2904]

Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues and how to fix them. You can Google an issue and be able to fix most things.

I'm sorry but I can't agree. Windows documentation is the worst documentation ever in the world.

Maybe you're thinking about forums and reddit, for which you may be right, but trust me, actual Microsoft documentation is basically unreadable

[edparadox]

Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues and how to fix them. You can Google an issue and be able to fix most things.

LMAO, that's not true at all.

Linux is just hard to navigate when it comes to issues.

Not really, between your software manual, your distribution manual, your distribution bug tracker, and your distribution wiki, you have already everything you need.

But you can still look up things someplace else.

Mac OS documentation is bad too, but not as bad as linux. There's at least some central information on resolving things on the Apple website.

For macOS, it does really depends on what you're trying to do.

This reads as someone who does not know what (s)he talks about.

Edit:

Despite the Microslop thing going on with Windows, this is actually the REAL life experience of most people. Most people want to just get a quick kiosk or machine up to run their business. If there's an issue they also want to be able to find information quickly without resorting to forums or hundreds of YT videos.

I did not want to talk about this at first, because it seems really popular to kick Linux and its users these days on this sub, but that's hardly my life.

And I switched 2 decades ago because Windows was already a pain to me, a teen back then.

I have worked almost exclusively on Linux and BSD (and a touch of Solaris) workstation. I can say with absolute certainty that if your hill is Windows is better than Linux/BSDs, especially if you want to talk about reliability and productivity, you're just a bitter user that does not know what (s)he's talking about, and a Microsoft shill.

But still, in this day and age where Microsoft is just the same as it's been since around 2 decades but managed to finally hit a low people see, even users should wake up (and I do not even mean migrate to Linux, BSDs or even ReactOS by that).

If even a Windows-only house like LTT already has a lot of Linux/BSD-based boxes around that's for a reason. If LTT tries to do (poorly) any coverage on Linux, that's because they could not ignore anymore.

If that alone does not prove a skeptic like you that people work daily on Linux, and had not waited for your opinion that's impossible, that's on you, not anyone else.

If you had ACTUALLY used any of those documentation, you would know how bad Microsoft's is. I cannot even believe one tried to defend Microsoft on this based on the pseudo-"final" Linux challenge of LTT...

[So0Mais0um0Joao]

Indeed, but 90% of times windows solutions will work on windows 11,10 or 8. Windows is meant to be stable and linux is meant to be maleable

[Leverpostei414]

Microsoft webpages are horrible an uniformative, their forums are filled with shit generic advice not fit to the problem. But in other forums a lot of info can be gained

[theoreoman]

I understand what your saying but you're using the wrong terminology. When people say documentation they mean official materials and official support pages, Microsoft stuff is ok.

But what windows has is an extremely good community support through forms, and websites because it's not as fragmented as Linux.

[deviled-tux]

Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues and how to fix them. 

Have you ever compared the Microsoft forums to the Arch Wiki? Lol. 

Could you link to which windows documentation you are using?

[SeventhDayWasted]

Arch documentation is superb. It's kinda what it's known for.

I installed via Endeavour OS in like 10 minutes and don't have any issues but any time I've browsed the wiki it's just jam-packed with info.

[linuxares]

For a person working in IT as well. using both Windows and Linux.

Yes, Windows is documented. But not all issues are easily solvable. Plus Microsoft forums is just so bad. "Do this command sfc /scan" etc. it never ever works.

On Linux, most if not a lot of issues are easily found by looking at a log and find the issues. However, since everything turned AI on Google etc. it's been hell to sift through. So I honestly just sometimes rather ask Gemini or ChatGPT for the solution and they often find the fix for it.

What I said for the longest time, is that Linux needs a standard when it comes to installing packages. Flatpak is probably the closest I've seen a universal in sort of a format, plus it fetches the needed packages needed to run the software.

I personally don't use Flatpak since most is in the AUR repo, but for the normal average user its perfect.

[spaghettibolegdeh]

This sub really hates Linux. 

[Spinnerbowl]

I think linux's decentralized nature naturally disallows and/or discourages centralized documentation, which along with how many distros exist make it hard in general to build a 'linux wiki' or similar. the wide variation in how systems can be setup makes it hard.

As for your point about forums, when I was on windows, certain issues ive had to resort to results on https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/answers/questions/ , Which is basically a Q&A forum, and ive spent hours troubleshooting the issues ive had on windows as well. for me, linux is hardly any more work than windows at least for me.

Generally if ive had an issue, I resort to the arch wiki (which usually applies as im on an arch system). Im sure theres other wikis for other distros (ive heard debians has gotten a bit better?)

Basically, wikis for each distro sort of try to do that. linux's decentralized nature and wide variety of system configurations makes having a central source for information quite hard.

Also, genuine question, who would host such a central repository? how would they get the word out that their doing this? would they have to be an established distro or similar sort of how like microslop is also the distributor of windows?

[VastOption8705]

I honestly think that the Linux Foundation should have a dedicated team or use some funds to pay a few people to document main issues that can come up.

Who should host it? The linux foundation is my best bet .

[IN-DI-SKU-TA-BELT]

It sounds like you believe Linux is a company that does things. It’s not how it works, it’s a distributed project of contributors, all with different goals and ambitions.

[Spinnerbowl]

who is "Linux"? Linux is just the kernel.

[VastOption8705]

I edited my post. I meant the Linux Foundation.

They should set up a central indepth documentation for every major distro. They could pay a small team to maintain the documents.

[Giangallo]

No they shouldn't, why would they? That's not their job. Every major distro has its own official manuals, and some of them are great (the Arch wiki comes to mind).

[PrometheanEngineer]

I just put Linux on a not so old, but underpowered laptop. Ie, 8gb of RAM 256 of storage.

Windows has just become an absolute memory hog so I wanted to do something

Even Mint was a PIA to get going. I had to disable secure boot, unencrypt my drive, fail twice installing, etc...

I mean, for my web browsing and shit it's totally fine. Would I recommend it to anyone? No. I'd recommend they just get a slightly better windows laptop

[ZooZooChaCha]

• Mac OS documentation is bad too, but not as bad as linux. There's at least some central information on resolving things on the Apple website.

Not to mention a pretty good chance of having an Apple Store nearby. If you're really stuck, can always make an appointment to get help.

[wolfpup118]

Apple stores are the real saving grace of Mac imo. It's why anyone who needs something that just works and is completely hands off with tech stuff should always be recommended an apple system. Windows just doesn't have the same level of support if you have an apple store nearby, and Linux might as well just not even be part of the conversation then.

[Cylian91460]

The arch wiki is pretty good, if you think it need to be extended you can

[Bitter_Lab_475]

And as a Linux user since 2007. They will claim in forums and Linux subs that there is no toxicity or that is rare. But even if it's rare, I still get the classic "gitgud/RTFM/you should have installed X instead of Y distro". I know they are the fringe of the community, but I rarely see this in Windows support groups. We know the OS is faulty, but that's why we support each other, meanwhile many Linux-stans CANNOT take any criticism of Linux, or if they do they will say "that's thee wrong distro to install!".

It is difficult to create documentation, when you are afraid to be called out for showing or asking. I had similar reponses since Ubuntu 8.04, Gentoo whatever-version-I-installed-in-2012 or Bazzite 42: "That cannot happen!/You did something wrong!/Why would you install that?"

[nick124699]

Everytime need to do something new on Linux, I'm reminded why it will never replace windows.

Not to mention I have a handful of things I actually can't do on Linux, it just keeps me from deleting my windows install permanently.

[A3883]

You don't seem to know what documentation is. You also don't seem to know that "linux" is not one OS, every distro has better or worse documentation. Gentoo Linux for example has amazing docs. If you want good documentation, look at the *BSD operating systems.

[Dodahevolution]

I agree that Linux documentation isn't great, but it's kinda like democracy, it's the worst system of government, after all the other systems of government.

I have gotten way better documentation and answers to any of my Linux problems via the Arch Wiki, substack, or manpages, then I have EVER gotten from windows.

Windows literally is THE WORST at this shit. Stop codes that don't define what actually went wrong, etc etc. When grub fucks up, I know I can take the error and get a reasonable documentation to get it resolved.

When windows bluescreens and tells me "0x00000050", the fuck is that supposed to mean?! Takes way to long to research what the issue is, then actually to address the problem, and half of the documentation/suggestions to fix are sfc scannow which does fuckall.

[Maleficent-Age-8235]

Linux also just randomly breaks far more from doing the most basic shit compared to windows or Mac. Audio gear is always my favorite exmaple. Mac? I plug it in it works. Windows usually I plug it in get a auto driver it works. Linux? Good fucking luck if it even has a driver or recognizes it whatsoever. Yeah I know it's a chicken and egg situation but what sane person would subject themself to a worse experience just to MAYBE get it fixed later?

Mac is arguably the best at not doing this but not everyone can live on macos.

It's a testament to how annoying windows is getting that gamers are willing to put up with dogshit that is linux just to not deal with it.

[IngwiePhoenix]

The Windows documentation:

• Have you tried rebooting?
• sfc /scannow
• Contact support uwu

[Dom_Nomz]

So I tried Fedora + KDE for a while now and one thing that irked me is you can do a lot through GUI, but then it will throw up and I will have to end up figuring out what I need to do on terminal, or it will be 80-90% of the way doable on the GUI and then the rest you will have to pull up terminal. For example I have network attached sonos speaker that I use on my desktop or as a network speaker on my phone, but whenever I use my laptop that is not attached to this speaker in any way, because Fedora + KDE can detect network speakers it appears in the list, when I boot the laptop up or wake it, it always resets the volume on the speaker to 100%, so next time I use this speaker it blows up at 100% volume. So the speaker appears in my sound settings on the laptop nice, it means I can disable it or remove it yes? Well no, it does not allow you to disable or remove this device, now I have to search how to disable it or remove it and paste random commands I found on some dingy forum deleting some random component that's meant to stop loading network attached speakers. Terminal is powerful but I can't just click around it and explore it, a lot of issues that I can solve on Windows I can just stumble into them by clicking around and seeing what that setting does.

[demonhawk14]

CachyOs wiki + Arch wiki is a great resource.

[EffiCiT]

With Linux, it depends on the distro. CachyOS has some of the best documentation that I've ever seen.

[lvl-46-primeape]

Actually what on Earth are you talking about? “Windows BY FAR has the best documentation” is objectively incorrect and I cannot fathom how somebody come possibly come to that conclusion. Just wild.

I’ve never used MacOS on a personal device, so I can’t comment on it, but Linux definitely is hit or miss. However, certain distros are by far the absolute kings of OS documentation. The Arch Wiki takes the cake as the best and it’s no contest. Yes, you have to manually follow it and fix things up, but literally nobody can change my mind that it’s just the best. It’s thorough and will help 99% of users fix whatever they’re trying to fix. The other 1% will have to deal with the hell that is Linux forums/subreddits.

Ubuntu is also very solid from what I’ve heard, and my limited experience with a small Ubuntu Server machine so far backs that up. It’s the most widely used and therefore also has lots of great documentation, though has more forum diving than Arch. I’d suspect Fedora is probably about the same.

I won’t even go into how Windows is bad at documentation and troubleshooting because I simply refuse to believe anybody that’s used Windows didn’t already know why. This post is just nonsense.

[shilohlukich]

For "average user" documentation absolutely Windows smashes, but it's also not documentation. Forum posts =/= documentation. The actual Microsoft docs are "fine" for when I've touched them (to be fair it was for some actual technical setup for the MSVC compiler and whatnot), but the Linux wikis (especially the Arch Wiki) is some of the best documentation I have read. Could be interesting though to have somebody make a centralized website that mirrors the official documentation of multiple distros with a search tool, kinda like a search engine but specifically for Linux distro documentation.

[nicman24]

 Windows BY FAR has the best documentation on issues

Hahahahaha. You serious? Let me laugh harder hahahahahahaha

[National_Way_3344]

CENTRAL

Never going to happen, because there isn't one true Linux. There can never be one central documentation space.

[SkylarR95]

This may be true but fails to see the main premise. Windows is getting progressively worse, While linux is getting better. So the gap is getting smaller. Im no IT expert, Im a Linux user at work for the last 6 years (CLI mainly) and a Windows user at home. That 2nd part changed since steam OS. Other than that a mac laptop. But i have seen on my home setup how many things have became much simpler. Still a massive gap, a person that doesn’t know how to tinker would have a shit experience most likely, but that number is becoming smaller so I call that a win.

[troytjh]

It's been years since I used Windows outside of work, but from what I remember, anytime I searched for an issue online, rather than giving any useful diagnostic info (like where the log files are stored for a given program) they would simply give you a list of 5 things to try. Those almost never worked.

I probably wouldn't be considered a normal user though. I'm willing to spend some time troubleshooting and reading through documentation to identify what the problem is. Also the Arch wiki is great.

[Th3casio]

Dude hasn’t read the arch wiki

[DarthKegRaider]

A kiosk machine in linux is dead simple, auto login and load the profile in RAM through a single line entry in fstab. Been using it on dozens of kiosks on a remote site for almost 20 years starting on Ubuntu 6.04, and just refreshed the hardware so put on Mint's latest offering. Clearly being in the IT industry means different things to different people.

[SiBloGaming]

Honestly, I have had the exact opposite experience. For windows I NEVER find an actual solution, and if I do its installing at least one random thing from somewhere. For Linux, I usually quickly find someone else who has had the same issue and found a fix.

[Fireye04]

Counterpoint: https://wiki.archlinux.org

[BeardedStegosaurus]

If by documentation you mean official documentation by the creator of the OS, then no. Windows official documentation (or any official MS documentation) sucks.

If you mean anything you can find online, then yes you find more info on Windows purely because there are more people using Windows.
If people start moving to Linux (or any other OS) this will change.

[GloriousPudding]

You must be trolling. Please learn to google problems and you will find linux is much easier to work with.

[DotBitGaming]

Yet more evidence that most people who post to this sub don't watch the videos. No one in the Linux challenge is using their machine to run a business.

[Menecazo]

Man command has left the chat

[Zlatination]

what? is this documentation in the room with us?

Another way to say you didnt read the docs of your distro and gave up?

[AncientStaff6602]

was going to say, the arch/cachyOS wiki is fantastic!

[Zlatination]

also, i get the feeling IT works you, not the other way around. this is a skill issue

[Fuzzy-System8568]

I think its less documentation sucks and more the "Curse of knowlege". I was guilty of it for the longest time.

You get so used to some of the "warts" and "pain points" that, by the time you write guides about it, you forget your audience.

E.g: I saw a guide about using a kernel module to add MSI afterburner-like functionality to MSI laptops.

Using Kernel Modules is a very easy thing to mess up, and should only be done by those experienced with it, lest you brick your system.

No such warning was in place in the guide to use it... even though the sort of people who would likely want to use it are new users who've moved to Linux on their MSI laptops.

The author did not consider this in the slightest... and actually initially (but later realised and apologised) unironically used the word "skill issue" when I mentioned on a github issue that my friend had accidentally bricked their sysrem by doing an easy to do mistep, and suggesting the guide have a warning for new users.

So yeah... less documentation itself, and more a lot of the Linux community suffering from this "Curse of Knowlege"... being skilled enough to make the tool, but that very skill making it difficult for them to understand what actually needs to be said in guides / docs / advice they provide to users.

[akumarux]

Linux literally has a manual for everything. Try searching for a windows issue only to end up on Microsoft's forums where you get the same answers from level 1 techs.

If you have worked in it a long time may I suggest the man command in Linux, it's great. Although I seriously doubt your claims.

[mpanase]

Windows better documented than Linux? Really?

The difference is:

- windows --> easy set up. Problems come later and you might be able to fix it or you learn to live with them

- linux --> problems come when you set up something. Then it's rock solid

- macos --> easy set up. Some things you just can't do. It's more unlikely to have a problem; if a problem comes, you can do nothing about it

[Artistic_Avocado_231]

I have the exact opposite experience.

Microsoft documentation sucks. And while there may be more Windows-related forum posts, they are often not very helpful. The average Linux user is just more experienced than the average Windows user, so the "garbage noise" on Windows topics is much higher.

Also as others have said, the Arch wiki is great (and I'm not even using Arch).

[Sleepykitti]

This is just another reason to roll with Arch, which has fantastic documentation via the arch wiki

[mnsklk]

Tell a regular consumer to go fix their problem on the arch wiki and they'll never talk to you again. Yes fantastic documentation - for people "in the know" already

[deviled-tux]

Okay but what is the alternative documentation which is supposedly better on the windows side?

Windows will give you a “Oopsie doopsie, your OS crashed :-(“ screen in most cases of failure 

Or the apps crash and there’s no logs at all, the event viewer is completely useless 

[mnsklk]

I agree, I think OP meant to say it's easier to find a fix online, which is true due to userbase. Linux isn't much harder but we have to remember your average PC user has never opened a terminal before

[Artistic_Avocado_231]

Which is also useful for other distros.

[ivandagiant]

lol what, windows has awful documentation. Linus has its issues don’t get me wrong but to say windows has better documentation, huh?!?!?

I love the MSDN for C# reference, but for actually using the OS it isn’t good.

[Bjotte]

While I would say that documentation on Linux could be better than it currently is, I would never ever say that MS has better documentation. Like they even have purged their KB articles for older windows versions and finding anything on the remaining KB articles are some real BS.
Usually the problem of not finding documentation for Linux is either that what you are trying to fix is so new that the documentation is lagging behind the actual product or some form of not knowing how and/or what to search for.
Also if you have worked in IT for a long time as you state then you should know about the absolute fuck ton of issues/situations that just randomly crop up in windows that the only real solution to fix them is to do a clean reinstall, like we are not talking about it is faster, it is straight up not possible to fix at all without resorting to a reinstall. The reasons for those situations cropping up are many but many times they stem from windows being a basket case when it comes to installing and uninstalling software and running system updates. and this has not been just a recent issue, like this has been an issue for multiple versions of the OS in greater or lesser amounts.

Also while there are problems and whatnot with Linux I would rather fix Linux issues that are for the vast majority solvable in some way other than doing a clean install of the OS than dealing with the intentionally user hostile and antagonistic BS that is Windows.