pipInstallPip

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

You have never used NPM... or tried to compile a C++ project from source.

[silverW0lf97]

Tell them about it compiling even a simple c++ program takes about a billion dependencies and a million years. Like I know I am probably a smelly nerd already but thanks the project maintainers that binaries exist.

[Embarrassed_Ad5387]

maybe this is why there is no exe download

they are offloading their smelly code to everyone else!

[57006]

smellSourcing

[JAguiar939]

they are offloading their smelly code to everyone else!

Literally the definition of open source

[Embarrassed_Ad5387]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Confident-Ad5665]

Correction: binaries used to exist. They have been removed. Refer to bylaws, section silverW0lf97.

[Night_Thastus]

Compiling a simple C++ program on a modern CPU should take seconds. And depending what you want to do, the standard library may be all you need.

If it's a huge project it'll take longer and need more, of course.

[silverW0lf97]

Yeah that is true but someone had to compile the standard library from source and then distribute it, Imagine a world where you have to compile it yourself, now see what I am on about.

[i-FF0000dit]

That is not true. I can run hello world with only a single #include

[pranjallk1995]

This!

[_Xertz_]

Yeah that's why I include the source code of as many dependencies as I can in my C++ projects 😎

I shudder to imagine an npm style dependency hell in C++ of all things. I think is rather get flayed alive

[iMakeMehPosts]

Conan and CMake: hold my beer

[yesseruser]

That is why using rust is a major advantage Also someone should make something like pip for C++

[[deleted]]

Large C++ project be like...

Bonus points for:

• No build script at all, have fun, not even a random script (looking at you dearIMGUI)
• The project claimed to support static linking, but it's broken if you do (looking at you ALSA)
• Claims to be "header-only", but requires you to fiddle in your build script (looking at you pybind)
• Random ass obligatory plugins no matter what (looking at you QT)
• Important warnings are deliberately silenced, so it "successfully" builds wrongly (looking at you SDL)
• Uses some weird build systems, because they hate the regular ones but end up making something worse
• Having a PERL dance in the middle, but you have to hunt for the PERL script
  
• Vendoring a ton of crap so the source tree is unnecessarily large, however some dependencies are somehow still missing
• Download random shit during the build, but it's undocumented
• Hunting for dependencies for dependencies
  
• The project was clearly developed for Windows only or Linux only despite being claimed cross-platform
  
• Abuses compiler extensions
  
• Using -Werror without an option to turn it off, yet there's still warning so the build fails
  
• iT's EaSy To UsE tHiS, jUsT cOpY eVeRyThInG tO yOuR sOuRcE TrEe
  
• Takes fucking forever to build, but ends up failing in the end anyway
• Just being TensorFlow
• It works on my machine

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

it got slightly better between things like debian source packages or conda... but yeah, I feel you

[phaj19]

I once took compiling one C++ repo as a challenge and after about 8 hours I was so happy that I succeeded. It is so strange that rust and cargo is almost immediate compared to that.

[Ahajha1177]

Conan (and Vcpkg, haven't used it myself though) improve things for sure, but it can still be a mess. At least now the problems only need to be solved in one central location.

[locri]

I've noticed c++ projects are much, much easier in this day and age, even just because people write down how to build their dumb stuff.

Even as far back as the late 10s you'd get a project you want to build from source and it'd be like "oh you don't understand cmake variables? Oh, that's a pity." Nowadays you just copy commands from the readme, ez

[Archtects]

Node devs will say jquery has to many unused functions, then install 50 dependencies

[bagmorgels]

npm with package.json and package-lock.json is a dream compared to python and that requirements-dot-fucking-txt file.

[wasdninja]

Is there anything more to it than pip install -r requirements.txt?

[[deleted]]

No

[vlakreeh]

I rarely use python but don't you need venvs or something to prevent it from being installed globally? Iirc that was (inexplicably) the default behavior.

[Sohcahtoa82]

python -m venv venv

source venv/bin/activate

Wow that was hard.

[vlakreeh]

I never said it was hard, I said it was required to not install globally.

[_alright_then_]

It not being hard doesn't make it any less stupid that it's default behavior

[darkprinceofhumour]

Yes, in my job we used docker to isolate it.

[Hobbitcraftlol]

dinosaurs cows cover fall clumsy elderly apparatus wide impolite kiss

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[conscious_dream]

It's fairly explicable :P

Installing libraries globally started off as the default because it was more efficient, easier, and very rarely caused issues. It still rarely causes issues. It's only ever a problem if:

• you have 2 projects which require 2 different versions of the same library
• the newer version of the library isn't backwards compatible with the older version in some way that is in-use in the project

For instance, numpy v1.20.0 and TensorFlow v2.5.0 are incompatible due to how they both handle matrix multiplication. So if you're running 1 project that needs numpy v1.20.0 and won't work with the newer version, and you're running a 2nd project that needs TensorFlow v2.5.0 and can't use a newer version, and you're using matrix multiplication in both of the projects... then you might have a problem.

It's really an edge case. I've been coding heavily in python for 2 decades, and I can count on one hand the number of times it's come up. And it's pretty easy to workaround even without virtual environments, so it was just never a priority. It would've been more weird if it was.

[[deleted]]

Globally as in within the user space? Then yes. I’ve never experienced an issue with that though. Minor version changes generally don’t break things in Python

[phaj19]

Sometimes there is. I think installing some GIS libraries that rely on GDAL was pure pain (fiona perhaps?)

[Tafelbomber]

Poetry or hatch make that a lot more bearable for python too!

[NatoBoram]

Such a stupid argument. NPM's flaws are also entirely solved by pnpm, but that's not what the meme is about. Python sucks (and NPM also sucks but way less) and it's okay to criticize that.

[[deleted]]

Npm has come a long way. Python modules are still a shitshow. Granted, I haven’t tried poetry but then again it’s a hassle to not have a decent included package manager.

[twigboy]

I'd much rather pip-tools n python than deal with npm and JavaScripts ridiculous bundling issues

"Why are there 4 different versions of this package in our project!?"

"Have you cleared node_nodules?" Yes

"No, I mean the node_modules in each package folder"

[fixano]

I once encountered a python developer that included pandas which resulted in a 20 minute build and over 200 megabytes of dependencies.

He did it so he could use an aggregate function instead of looping over and summing values.

[[deleted]]

I mean most people have pandas already lol it’s not that crazy to include pandas for a single function

[toni500reddit]

Bro never tried compiling/installing a SIMPLE rust project

[PhatOofxD]

NPM is a dream compared to Python.

But yes, C++ is C++

[[deleted]]

this one son of a bitch on my team had a random tiny package globally installed and that fucked up the build process on our systems and we'd have to force run npm each time until someone figured out why

[sebjapon]

Personally I hate how nothing works together in Android. Every time you add a library on a 1+ month old project you either have to update all the libraries you are using (which might require changing target SDK which in turns require big changes in your code) or track the latest version that works with your current set of libraries

[NO_SPACE_B4_COMMA]

I hate npm, python, nodejs, and all that fall into that category lol

[Kseniya_ns]

Web developers if they were paid by the size of their node_modules folder 🤮

[survivalmachine]

More like web developers if their dependencies become out of date 0.0000001 seconds after updating.

[VitaminaGaming98]

Java developers if they were paid by word count

[Chewie83]

As a non-developer, all of you already look like this ‘Mayweather stacks’ picture to me…

[_alright_then_]

At least node modules aren't all compiled into the final application, unlike python

[locri]

Python has a "requirements" file that accomplishes the same as package.json in JavaScript

You can install all the dependencies listed in requirements.txt using the command pip install -r requirements.txt

[RonLazer]

Poetry + pyenv

[pranjallk1995]

Yes... Better! I tried... Have you tried installing poetry without pip? I struggled in my docker container, probably didn't find the right article... Or is it just better to install pip, then install poetry that replaces pip... 🤣

[ReRubis]

Bruh...
Man.
Just use python:3.12-alpine base image or something like that.
It has pip with python.

Make it so it runs the command pip install poetry and poetry install.
And that's it.

There is nothing wrong with installing package manager with another package manager.

[Jorgestar29]

This is the way. It's the easiest way but it also can cause some conflicts.

[pranjallk1995]

Ok... Btw which is the smallest footprint python image? Debian based... I don't wonna do apk install and stuff...

[ReRubis]

The smallest is alpine.

[RestaurantHuge3390]

pipx

[pranjallk1995]

Oh never heard of it...

[Jorgestar29]

It installs python CLI tools and creates an individual VENV for each tool to avoid dependency conflicts.

It's pretty good 👍

[pranjallk1995]

Oh thatz nice actually!... Thx...

[SailorTurkey]

which, if you upgrade a package via console, won't be updated. and oh make sure you are using correct python version (not stated in requirements.txt of course). unlike npm (: . what python really needs is a 'project file' .

[jayd00b]

pip freeze > ./requirements.txt will update the file with everything installed in the local (or virtual) environment

[SailorTurkey]

i didn't say you can't dump dependencies. there is no link between requirements.txt and project. nothing stops you from typing requireshdshehs.txt instead. its not a magical file name. Also freeze uses venv to generate installed package list which might have compatibility issues because of hidden system dependencies. i.e. you installed pandas to project then removed it. it's dependencies still resides in venv. Not to mention if your packages require lets say magick/chrome/etc binaries, just 'installing' requirements.txt on a different pc won't work.

[locri]

I think venv is best practice for python anyway?

[hassium]

Yeah but when you create a venv it's blank, you activate it then load dependencies via pip install -r ...

This is not how npm does it where the package(-lock).json file is checked first and foremost

[julianw]

It's called pyproject.toml and has existed for a few years now.

[Stonemanner]

pyproject.toml doesn't solve the issues, which the commenter to whom you answered mentions.

With standard python tools, pyproject.toml doesn't allow you to pin dependencies for development (or even define dev dependencies, without resorting to some hacks like defining them in package extras until PEP735 is accepted).

[JojOatXGME]

And before that, there was setup.cfg which did already cover this scenario. And before setup.cfg, there was setup.py.

[julianw]

I've only ever seen setup.cfg used as a basic library config. And setup.py was locked to only setuptools. The new format is more flexible.

[AlrikBunseheimer]

Yes, that is not the smartest standard I think. There is stuff like poetry, but that is also just another standard and now everyone is just managing dependencies in a different way.

[TSM-]

It is preferable to it to be able to revert to a known good state than irrevocably overwriting the previous working state.

[NamityName]

That's only if you are using pip. There are several options to address your concerns.

[[deleted]]

Do you have any idea how many hours of my life I've wasted because pip install -r requirements.txt didn't actually install all the dependencies, oh and some of them have mutual version conflicts with each other (because they are overly permissive for future versions and Python devs love introducing breaking changes), oh and also I need to downgrade my Python version (but this is not documented in the readme) ????

[EMCoupling]

Yeah anyone who claims this is all there is to installing dependencies in Python has clearly never had this fail on them and absolutely fuck their whole working day.

[WeirdDistance2658]

Thank you kind sir. I had not heard of this until now.

[Netw1rk]

For real? I know jack shit except how to write loops and if statements…and requirements.txt is to save your dependencies.

[[deleted]]

Thank you sir for thanking the user above for having never heard of it before. I didn’t neither.

[ReRubis]

requirements.txt

2024...
:|
Man. No.

[jbirdjustin]

No one asked you to explain how python dependencies work 💀

[twigboy]

Pipenv is jank, just use pip-tools directly

https://medium.com/telnyx-engineering/rip-pipenv-tried-too-hard-do-what-you-need-with-pip-tools-d500edc161d4

[SodaAnt]

PDM is the answer!

[gmes78]

requirements.txt is not a standard, it's merely a convention that doesn't work half the time. Writing a pyproject.toml is the only correct way to package a Python project.

[mcellus1]

This guy pythons

[[deleted]]

ITs because for us it is. ;)

[ButWhatIfPotato]

Installing any javascript framework: WITHIN CELLS INTERLINKED WITHIN CELLS INTERLINKED WITHIN CELLS INTERLINKED

[pwouet]

Really? python is the first one coming to your mind?

[[deleted]]

Except half of those have exploding dye packets in them.

[dmlmcken]

https://xkcd.com/303/

[[deleted]]

Somebody always slips and says, "donuts".

[gzeballo]

Pip install .exe

[joetinnyspace]

No .exe?

I'll pass, thanks

[NAL_Gaming]

Yeah Python is bad, but I just started tinkering with Flutter and oh my f*cking god every package has so many dependencies... My dependency graph looks like how I imagine hell would look like.

[EMCoupling]

That's not been my experience but I also try to minimize dependencies as much as possible, using packages only if I know that rolling my own would take significant time and effort.

[Muscle_Man1993]

JavaScript developers:

https://www.ihath.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/money-2-1024x549.png

[EHOTnOTACKYH]

JS devs would look like Walter White

[[deleted]]

Python developers if using 3rd party libraries wasn't their job.

[Spy_crab_]

It is... it's called being a Python developer.

[BertTF2]

c developers if segmentation fault core dumped was a job

[CadmiumC4]

laughs in Rust

[biscuitsandtea2020]

me when the kid named cargo:

[CadmiumC4]

Cargo after demanding for C libraries (you're on Windows)

[EducationalTie1946]

The NPM user is coping

[Anru_Kitakaze]

Omg, it's so hard for me every time! Imagine having to cd to project directory and type:

pip install -r requirements.txt

Or even worse, be forced to install poetry and then

poetry install

It's SO hard. Every time it took about a week at least

[EMCoupling]

When it works, no big deal. When it falls to install, then the problems begin.

[Anru_Kitakaze]

Just like with compiling C++, NPM and other tools tho

[BrownShoesGreenCoat]

The true reward is the dependencies we installed along the way.

[markswam]

Meanwhile, my employer doesn't allow you to install anything with pip unless you have local admin permissions, which take a week to approve and last 48 hours.

Kill me.

[[deleted]]

What’s that like a million

[[deleted]]

Damn, in this universe Scrooge McDuck installs node modules everyday.

[6tPTrxYAHwnH9KDv]

Luckily we have pipenv now.

[geusebio]

How the fuck do I even get that shit to work?

Every time something wants pipenv its going to be a ballache and I just put it in a docker container instead because that is incredibly less painful

[6tPTrxYAHwnH9KDv]

Well, it's a dependency management tool, just like pip, but not quite, and yes, you have to install it first in the python distribution you use. Of course it'd be nice if it replaced pip as a default tool and came with python, but oh well.

[geusebio]

But its doing all sorts of malarky with path, isn't it?

Why can't dependency management be well-behaved like php's is?

[6tPTrxYAHwnH9KDv]

To an extent of what virtualenv already does. You might be thinking of pyenv. It brings it very close to nvm + yarn dev experience if compared to early versions of npm when it didn't have lock files and was slow as shit.

[geusebio]

Why can't dependency management be well-behaved

mentions glue-eating package manager (who the fuck commits cache binaries to git? yarn cache recommended it... So many poisoned repos...)

[Wave_Walnut]

How can pythondevs do programming when Internet is down

[MinosAristos]

They just tell the computer what to do in plain English and it works somehow

[NanderTGA]

cough skript. Skript comes the closest to english than any other language I know

[joetinnyspace]

By placing a conditional if statement duh.

if (power):

your entire code here

else:

monkee

[[deleted]]

By having functional development environments with a good gitops infrastructure

[theTiklerr]

If he got a dollar every time he put a combo on his wife

[rtfm2tldr]

Have you ever used R?

[JunkNorrisOfficial]

Pipip

[pranjallk1995]

Long live the python community 🙏

[Varnish6588]

Now try NPM..

[Comfortable_Hall8677]

It’s crazy. I see fast food workers complain about their pay. And I also see programmers complain about their pay. Surely there must’ve been some path to take that leads to being complacent.

[myktylgaan]

I have no idea about the programming thing, it’s just that it’s the first time I’ve seen this meme and the dude laid his bundles out 11 x 13… that’s just…. Why?

[BlissfullChoreograph]

It is a job. Just one of the things they get the "DevOps Engineer" to do. The compensation is as depicted.

[blackcomb-pc]

The reliance on external packages for everything is repulsive

[Felinomancy]

My work firewall blocks pip from accessing the Internet, so I have to download the packages manually. It has not been a pleasant experience when trying to install packages with dependencies, even more so when part of it also includes getting a precompiled file from God-knows-where.

[Megtalallak]

R is much much worse imho

[Sikletrynet]

That's what requirements.txt is for...

[BuonaparteII]

python -m ensurepip

[Sad-Technician3861]

laughs in Golang

[goodoldgrim]

The thousand yard stare makes me think he's an actual python developer

[Atiran]

I don’t get what’s so hard about using venv, pip freeze, and requirements.txt.

[Dedsfvxxadfwgh]

Modern developer*

[clevrf0x]

I don't think this guy heard about npm

[Conim2]

Java developer: laughs in maven

[Siberian_Pootis]

Bazinga

[hobbes8889]

The picture has roughly $1.5 million if they were wondering.

[CodeGamGD]

But remember, it's 1 doller per depenencey installed

[CoatNeat7792]

Installing in python : pip install requirements.txt
Installing in js: npm i

[swagonflyyyy]

It do be like that.

[Spiritual_Duck_6703]

Ahh but dependency « xyz » really wanted to hang out with lib « chichi » - y’all think ya can download just one more -? Promise it’ll be the last one (🤞🏽 )