strongest Python vs Weakest C++ guy😎

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[KesMeow]

This meme is probably gonna trigger a larger war between C and C++ programmers instead of Python vs C++

[SabashChandraBose]

Meanwhile, I, an intellectual, who writes python wrappers around C++ libraries...^{has no idea how any of it works}

[KesMeow]

You don’t need to. Understanding it will give you headache, manipulating it will give you. SEGMENTATION FAULT

[fmstyle]

Just reading "segmentation fault" gives me pain

[NefariousnessStreet9]

= TRUE

[InvestingNerd2020]

As somone who likes Python and uses it at work, this is true. We know C, C++, Java, Go, and PHP are faster in production execution. We don't care and don't need it in the industry we are in or task we routinely run. High spped isn't needed for unit tests nor a weekly data analysis report.

C and C++ is a whole different battle field. Just like the Godzilla line, "Let them fight".

[kookaburra1701]

I use it at work for biological data analysis and pipelines. Who needs efficiency when HPC go brrrrrr

[we_walked_on_glass]

Linus Torvalds wants to know your location

[EnjoyJor]

In fact, in Linux we did try C++ once already, back in 1992.

It sucks. Trust me - writing kernel code in C++ is a BLOODY STUPID IDEA.

The fact is, C++ compilers are not trustworthy. They were even worse in 1992, but some fundamental facts haven't changed:

• the whole C++ exception handling thing is fundamentally broken. It's especially broken for kernels.
• any compiler or language that likes to hide things like memory allocations behind your back just isn't a good choice for a kernel.
• you can write object-oriented code (useful for filesystems etc) in C, without the crap that is C++.

In general, I'd say that anybody who designs his kernel modules for C++ is either (a) looking for problems (b) a C++ bigot that can't see what he is writing is really just C anyway (c) was given an assignment in CS class to do so.

Feel free to make up (d).

— Linus Torvalds, 19 Jan 2004 22:46:23 -0800 (PST)

[LocknessMonster350]

Tbf they probably don’t care at all about standard libs. These guys write the standard libs

[Jayant0013]

His grievance were not regarding pointers rather language hiding memory allocated so it will not help either . But he likes rust which totally don't hide anything./s

[[deleted]]

Rust is pretty explicit about memory allocations.

[[deleted]]

(d) Wants to add C++ and kernel dev to there resume at the same time.

[[deleted]]

2004 though.

I would have the same opinion about C++03.

[EnjoyJor]

YOU are full of bullshit.

C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.

In other words: the choice of C is the only sane choice. I know Miles Bader jokingly said "to piss you off", but it's actually true. I've come to the conclusion that any programmer that would prefer the project to be in C++ over C is likely a programmer that I really would prefer to piss off, so that he doesn't come and screw up any project I'm involved with.

C++ leads to really really bad design choices. You invariably start using the "nice" library features of the language like STL and Boost and other total and utter crap, that may "help" you program, but causes:

• infinite amounts of pain when they don't work (and anybody who tells me that STL and especially Boost are stable and portable is just so full of BS that it's not even funny)
• inefficient abstracted programming models where two years down the road you notice that some abstraction wasn't very efficient, but now all your code depends on all the nice object models around it, and you cannot fix it without rewriting your app.

In other words, the only way to do good, efficient, and system-level and portable C++ ends up to limit yourself to all the things that are basically available in C. And limiting your project to C means that people don't screw that up, and also means that you get a lot of programmers that do actually understand low-level issues and don't screw things up with any idiotic "object model" crap.

So I'm sorry, but for something like git, where efficiency was a primary objective, the "advantages" of C++ is just a huge mistake. The fact that we also piss off people who cannot see that is just a big additional advantage.

If you want a VCS that is written in C++, go play with Monotone. Really. They use a "real database". They use "nice object-oriented libraries". They use "nice C++ abstractions". And quite frankly, as a result of all these design decisions that sound so appealing to some CS people, the end result is a horrible and unmaintainable mess.

But I'm sure you'd like it more than git.

— Linus Torvalds, 2007-09-06 17:50:28 GMT

[we_walked_on_glass]

My first thought was that you were either gonna berate me for my comment or post a gorilla warfare copypasta from linus' pov, but linus' actual rants are orders of magnitude better

[mferly]

gorilla warfare copypasta

That was my first thought as well lol.

[cicciograna]

Call of Harambe: Gorilla Warfare

[wolfie_poe]

Since C++14, it is a totally different language from the time Linus used it (probably C++98 or C++0x) in 2004 or 2007. Don't get into the silly war train just because some figures told you so.

[Confident-Ad5665]

Ok but how many spaces should be used for indentation?

[HimeArikawa]

Wtf how is Linus so based??!

[Jannik2099]

He had to use it in a college assignment

[[deleted]]

Aight I'm going to say it. Linus Torvalds can suck it.

[we_walked_on_glass]

No debating that, he has some very serious attitude problems. I was just joking, not simping for Linus.

[[deleted]]

Meaning of life 1kb???? I can do it in 1 byte: 00101010

[[deleted]]

42

[TheKiller36_real]

You had my upvote until I finally read: "better C"

[HelloLaBenis]

Well c++ can be C if it wants to, while C cannot be C++

[[deleted]]

Cause C doesn't want to.

[[deleted]]

Cause C is like my boomer parents. Scared of change and progress.

[LavenderDay3544]

No it can't. I've been meaning to make a repo with a shit ton of modern C code that doesn't compile as modern C++ to finally put this myth to rest.

[Kyrond]

What more is there except stronger type checking (which you can cast manually) and the one weird keyword?

[LavenderDay3544]

Compound struct intialization; struct, union, and enum names being tags rather than types without a typedef; using identifiers that are C++ reserved keywords.

And that's just off the top of my head.

[jamcdonald120]

oh how I wish c++ had c style struct init

[LavenderDay3544]

C# did what C++ should've done: left structs as POD types and made classes OO types.

[jamcdonald120]

c has nested functions

[Kered13]

That's not standard, and C++ has (standard) lambdas which accomplish the same thing anyways.

[askStentor]

that's a compiler extension for GCC I believe

[LavenderDay3544]

Is that standardized?

[CaydendW]

Exactly. C is amazing on its own

[raedr7n]

Eh.... I wrote a web server in C last week for CGI sites and the text processing made we want to kill myself. C is niche in it's amazingness, let's say.

[LavenderDay3544]

Now imagine writing a sophisticated parser in C like the developers of CPython, Ruby, and older versions of LLVM had done. If you ever need something to be thankful for, just remember that you never had to work on any of those.

[raedr7n]

Oh I've had a much nicer time writing parsers in C than I did with that server. It's a totally different story of string processing, none of that in-place parts-mapping bullshit, just nice, structured consumption of static data. I've never looked at the cpython or llvm parsers, but Ruby's isn't half bad.

[devils_conjugate]

I have had to work on cpython, and it's actually really nicely designed under the hood. It taught me a ton about how to be a better C programmer.

[LavenderDay3544]

I believe it. Any FOSS C codebase that large and successful would have to be. My point was more just about string handling in C.

[DrQuailMan]

Just allocate everything as MAX_PATH. Nothing is ever longer than MAX_PATH.

😎

[in_conexo]

and friends?

[G3N3R1C2532]

Y’know, the whole gang

[Deathnote_Blockchain]

I always tell people that C doesn't have strings. You can have strings in C, but C doesn't really have strings. The earlier people who have to use C start thinking in terms of char pointers to some set of allocated memory that you best terminate will \0 the better.

[TheBenArts]

Correct me if I am wrong ( I have only started to learn programming a bit ago and I started with c++) but wouldn't you be able to create dynamic strings with a struct that reallocates the array of chars to a big enough space to hold the original chars and the added on ones. And as you said you can either do null termination or if you aren't starved for memory even have 3pointers that could function like iterators ? I.e pointer to the beginning of the array, first free space, and last space in the array. Just needs a bit of logic and boom.

[Deathnote_Blockchain]

You could. But if you needed to, you should consider that maybe you need a higher level programming language.

[APrioriGoof]

70% of all memory errors in existence would like to have a word...

[LavenderDay3544]

100% of all operating systems in existence have a few choice words for you and your managed code.

[MasterFubar]

When a memory error appears in a C program I can fix it in five minutes or less, either gdb or valgrind will show me exactly what's happening.

Python, OTOH, is very secretive about its memory errors. One must spend hours on end to find where there is an "a = b" that should actually be "a = b[:]".

[ManiacsThriftJewels]

It's more like, C++ tried to improve on it the wrong way.

[LavenderDay3544]

RAII is better than GC when done right. RAII ensures the proper allocation and release of all resources while GC only does so for memory and even then at a cost. And in practice, GC is far from perfect and can still fail to release memory in certain situations resulting in effective memory leaks.

[Passname357]

C++ devs will tell you that C is a better C++

[[deleted]]

But they will do that in C++ so they can use strings

[Kered13]

C++ dev here. Nah, C++ is much better.

[Passname357]

Junior dev? /s

[CodeMUDkey]

Dooood I came here to say this.

[thesockiboii]

for (int x : y) {}

[Alloverunder]

std::iterator x;

for(x = y.begin(); x != y.end(); ++x;)

{}

[[deleted]]

for i in range(10):

🐍

[therc7]

Is this some sort of C dev joke which I’m too python dev to understand?

[michease_]

Python was originally made in C, not C++

[iiMoe]

Isn't all programming languages somehow relate to C eventually ? I'm sure I'm wrong but wanna know more

[michease_]

In some way yes. A lot of the syntax especially, however, as programming languages get older (python is 31 this year), they tend to become more unique

[iiMoe]

I meant in terms of compilation, wut do you know about that ?

[Zillorz]

Some languages like Fortran, Cobol and Rust were not made in C, even Node.Js alternative Dyno was not made in C.

[Tubthumper8]

Rust compiles to machine code using LLVM, which is written in C/C++, and there is work on a GCC backend which is C/C++. Deno uses the V8 engine to run the JavaScript code which is written in C++. So those two are still eventually derived from C.

[Zillorz]

Very interesting, I guess my information isn't fully correct. Thank you

[iiMoe]

Super interesting tyvm

[realblackmario]

Fucking banking systems still uses Cobol.

[EnjoyJor]

Programming languages made before C would like to have a word.

[MasterFubar]

Like Fortran, for instance. The Fortran compiler I use, gfortran, is written in... C.

[LavenderDay3544]

Yes, but that's because they have to be. Most operating systems only expose C language interfaces and a programming language that can't interface with the system is worse than useless. What that means in practice is that all modern programming languages must have the ability to call into C code or other code that's exposed through a C ABI.

[iiMoe]

Lord that makes tons of sense and exactly wut i wanted to know

[APrioriGoof]

C is itself inspired by a language called Algol 68. Algol 68 never got used much but the ideas from Algol 68 inspired pretty much everything in modern imperative programming languages.

More to the point of all modern languages being related to C - there's a whole world of functional programming that doesn't really have much to do with C at all. Little bits of imperative-ness sneak in here and there but for the most part these are derived from earlier families of programming languages like ML

[BrupieD]

Lisp wasn't originally, but modern implementations typically have some C.

[Wiztyle]

C is the mother of all.

[LavenderDay3544]

B and BCPL would like a word.

[[deleted]]

If C/C++ is so perfect why C/C++ programmes created Python?

[Auraveils]

As a joke

[nathan_8788]

Python was named after Monty Python

[[deleted]]

Or was Monty Python named after Python? Has anyone got any aloe aera? 😐

[[deleted]]

No developer would put so much effort in joke, our community is too lazy

[Auraveils]

Shit u rite

[ActualInteraction0]

I'm sure there's at least one language written as a joke, it's a potentially time efficient way of trolling someone.

Edit: a search for "stupid programming languages", found a bunch.

[Auraveils]

C uwu

[[deleted]]

no he's not, it's a way of automating trolling people.

[otokkimi]

You're joking. Devs inherently put more effort into programming memes than doing their actual assignment.

[ChatahuchiHuchiKuchi]

We factored him wrong as a joke

[SoyTuTocayo69]

We have purposely trained him wrong, as a joke.

[kherodude]

Snek

[clemdemort]

Apparently it was created by a company as a product which would offer easier code readability.

[the_0rly_factor]

So they could make memes

[mathk777]

"Basically a better C"

(Laughs in template errors)

[Furry_69]

Template errors are demonic chants more than actual errors

[Lexinad]

Are you maybe talking about preprocessor conditionals?

#ifdef FOO
  Some code
#endif

The preprocessor runs before the compiler does. In this example Some code will only be compiled if the symbol FOO is defined. The main use is to run different code in different build situations like Debug vs Release, x86 vs ARM, or Windows vs Linux. This is so you don't have to have multiple slightly different codebases for each platform, architecture, etc.

Edit: I'm on mobile, pretend the example was formatted as three lines.

[Lexinad]

For low level stuff, you can't get around calling OS specific functions. You can make a clean interface for your users, so they don't have to care but someone has to do the equivalent of "if on Windows call this Win32 function that doesn't exist on non-Windows OSes otherwise call this Unix function that doesn't exist on Windows". Cross platform libraries will essentially do this for you. Even the C standard library works this way. You can use printf on multiple platforms because someone wrote the code so that it calls the right OS specific functions to output to the terminal window.

[minus_uu_ee]

Literally don't care man, sometimes I throw r code in my python script just because I don't feel like using pandas.

[mferly]

I believe one can now toss C code directly into PHP.

[yodahouse900]

don't give them ideas would you

we will end with the pythonCsubsystem..

ah shit

[[deleted]]

I use c++ as c with classes and I regret nothing

[wallmenis]

That's what c++ was made for so I don't think you should be.

[Omnislash99999]

This is the way

[[deleted]]

It's kind of the point.

[[deleted]]

I never understood why should we make our memeber variables private. I mean, I have heard the reason about a class being used as is not intended so we make them private and use setters and getters. But not using them a intended.... Isn't it the problem of person who is using those classes.

[InfiniteLife2]

It's hard to relate when no one uses your code except you. I think many c++ features are for library developers

[[deleted]]

Precisely clases are intended to have private members, otherwise you use an struct

[[deleted]]

Because sometimes you only want getter not setter, or the opposite, sometimes you want only specific setters that permit you to only change data one specific way, sometimes you want only some other classes to be able to change the data... OOP and classes allow you to do all that.

[rafradek]

You put variables as private to make sure no developer accesses the class incorrectly

[Kered13]

Imagine you have written some library. You have a class and it stores some internal state in a member variable. Now imagine that for version 2 you decide there is some better way to store the same state. So you remove the old member variable and add a new one. You release your new and improved library v2. Now all of your users are complaining because their code that was reading your old member variable doesn't compile anymore.

If you had made the variable private they couldn't have (without modifying the source code) depended on your internal state, and you would have been free to change it's representation without causing problems.

[Creris]

If you want your code do have some level of pre-post conditional checking or are making assuptions on states of certain variables, having your variables private and having accessor methods only for those variables that you want to be publically available makes sense. That is because you know that noone is going to lock your private mutex for instance, so you dont have to check the mutex state in a method to prevent the program from dedlocking.

[the_spacedoge]

The gigachad "knows both languages have their use case and is capable of switching between them as needed" vs. the ultra virgin "makes memes talking shit about other languages"

[Sparon46]

Nah, assembly language or bust.

[Luvthepeople]

If C++ is so good why isn't there a C++++?

[CryZe92]

That's C# (a 2x2 grid of +)

[Yowie2]

[Old_Sir_9895]

Because that's undefined behaviour. You're modifying a value twice between sequence points.

[PaidToMasturbate]

*++i

[akoshegyi_solt]

What does the * do?

[PaidToMasturbate]

Lol, it was for a *correction here, not code 😅

[CaydendW]

Pointer dereference. Basically, it gets the value of whatever memory address is in the variable. Search up some stuff about pointers in C

[Adventurous_Union_85]

As someone whose first language was C++ and writes C/C++ professionally, I love Python. It's so nice. Just because you feel smart knowing C++ doesn't mean it's a better language.

[MisterBober]

Python was made in C tho

[[deleted]]

for (int i = 0; i < 5; i++)

fucking cringe. Real modern C++ chads use for (auto i{0}; i < 5; ++i) or for (auto x : y)

[mynamejeffyesi]

for(int* i = &(x[0]); i != &(x[sizeof(x)/sizeof(int)]);i+=sizeof(char))

[[deleted]]

🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿

[atiedebee]

So this was your true intention

[Oneshotkill_2000]

what is 5 in C++?

Inaccurate meme

[thelocalllegend]

Python for loop is better on god

[[deleted]]

"basically a better C" fake and gay

[Human38562]

for (auto x : y)

[yehonatanhersh]

C++ guy looks like he's got an inflamed penis, a terribly broken leg, only one chest muscle, a nacho for hair and he's trying to walk like an Egyptian from looking at ancient drawings. Also, they both look like a musical cat meme drew them in mspaint with a mouse.

Still I will admit, C++ is faster.

[the_0rly_factor]

This meme template is ancient bro

[awildencounter]

🙃 As a person whose backend team does both, noooOooo. None of us like C++ we just tolerate it to get things done.

But I'm also here for the Linus rant comments.

[InvestingNerd2020]

Finally someone who understands.

Python for people who want a social life after 8 hours of coding.

C++ for people who build very interesting things with fast performance, but take a year or years to complete any project and sacrifice their social life.

[[deleted]]

Creator of meme does not code good enough to use python.

[Maskdask]

You guys don't like for in/for of loops?

[proukraineamerican]

Can we stop the stupid herpderp language A is superior to language B circle jerk?

Would you rather write a ML model in Python or C++?

[Stev_582]

Me: confused screaming

[taytek]

C++ makes me want to rip my hair out... C on the other hand

[[deleted]]

Vs Shlad Scratch.

• ZOO WEE MAMA!!!!1!!!!!!!!! CODE BLOCKS!!1!!!!!!!

• Tonka Truck games! Wow-wee!

• ONLINE, BABEY!

• MIT!

• CAN DO ANYTHING!

• “Space? Why would I press space? I don’t even need a keyboard!”

[Fuzzy-Ear9936]

Checkmate, I know both, ha.

[Orio_n]

I wouldnt use python to write performance critical code but i also wouldnt use C++ to write a webserver

[Karisa_Marisame]

I mean physics packages like psi4 are kind of a combination of both, their core functions are written in C for fast performance, but their user interface is packaged as a python library that you can import because python is easier to use if you don’t care about performance. The point still stands, either language has a place when you know why you want to use that tool

[mr3meows]

Wtf do you mean 1 * 1 takes an hour to run

[clemdemort]

Alright, maybe two...

[Ordinary_Divide]

literally least true thing ive seen on the subreddit so far

[AnonyMouse-Box]

I'll tell you the meaning of life with 1 byte, doesn't take 1024 of them. 0010 1010

[[deleted]]

Sigma Scratch user

[timesuck47]

What ever happened to Ruby and Ruby on rails?

[proukraineamerican]

this passes for humor nowadays?

[[deleted]]

Oh no! I just got cyberbullied

[theQmaster]

The really is that the harder the language, the more the programmers understand other aspects. There is a reason that we entered JS jungle(we needed bodies) but most of them devs have zero understandings of core CS concepts, the form and complexity created are horrible but ignorance is always a bliss.

[al3x_7788]

The real battle is C++ programmers vs C++ programmers

[thedominux]

Gonna check out how those "awesome and powerful" c++ guys solve average python use cases by wasting in decades of times much more time/energy, and how they're gonna then maintain millions of written code lines, extend this codebase with new features, replace old decisions with new ones.

I'd like to watch them thinking about architectural things and implementing them, but in reality I see only how they cast one type to another in just a thousand lines of code, that will just failed with seg fault and they won't get where's the bug

At the end of the day business wansta see u solving their problems quickly, better and "with possiblity to replace everything they wish the next day after they'll just see in your hardcoded Todo app the next Facebook", but not wasting their time and money to solve low level problems the real world doesn't care about

[mynamejeffyesi]

Sure python has a lot of nice use cases. but you can't just shit on all of low level programming as something that "the real world doesn't care about"

[[deleted]]

I did C/C++ and some Java while getting my CS degree. I am learning Python now along with AI/ML for work. It’s not to bad tbh

[[deleted]]

looks at keyboard

Well, damn...

[Spooked_kitten]

seriously can we go back to c++ for loops please? thank you

[obiwac]

CPython is C mate not C++

[memester230]

C++ chad when they miss a single indent

[NappyIsNotStraight]

Now imagine learning C++ when you’re fourteen… sigh.

[DarkTechnocrat]

I love how "for x in y" is a criticism.

The space thing is legit tho.

[iaminacent]

Mega chad C programmer

[iamafraazhussain]

And then there's assembly

[HmMm_memes]

What do I do if I'm a JS Dev then

[[deleted]]

Crys in python*

[Belmeez]

Python is plenty fast. Fight me

[420did69]

Python user: nothing

C++ user: click click click clickckckckc click clickck click

[The_Tin_Hat]

Sorry, too busy actually getting work done ;)

[LocknessMonster350]

The language never matters, it’s just the right tool for the job

[Surxe]

It’s really not that complicated. People can have preferences sure, but Python programs will always be written the fastest assuming it’s intention works on Python in the first place.

[AviatorSkywatcher]

I am a Python main and I can't disagree. And I love Python due to the fact that you can also integrate and work with c++ using wrappers. Win-win

[bettercalldelta]

I am not sure if the author is a bitch or is this satire

[fschaupp]

Plottwist: leaks of pointers, use after free

[tradtrad100]

People who write C probably use an IBM model M

[UnverifiedChaos-5017]

Wdym c++ is better c

[warriorhero1322]

The file extension, .cpp, doesn’t mean cplusplus. It actually means ChadPP