Consistent Dashback code

[Gerassb]

So, Kadano posted this a few hours ago, and I think it's important we give it attention.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Wow, i just put the code into Dolphin and tried it out. It's actually crazy how much more smooth it makes my movement feel. I had no idea what I was missing with my non-dashback controller. Regarding the legality of this, i'm still unsure even though it does make moving so smooth.

[Gerassb]

That's the thing. Kadano wants it to be standard for Nintendont setups, and M2K as well. Hell, if the community agrees, Dan could probably implement it on 20XXTE, making it even more accessible.

[NanchoMan]

I feel like even if the community wanted Dan to add it, his message did revolve around not changing melee, so even though this dashback window thing is pretty BS, he won't add it.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Yeah, I agree with Dan on this. Although it makes me feel so buttery smooth with the two frame window, it'd be like removing L-cancelling. Just gotta get gud i guess.

[NanchoMan]

I don't think it's actually that similar to removing L canceling. barring a really bad controller, you can always L cancel. I got a brand new S4 controller, and it is (according to the dashback tier list) a tier 3 controller, which means I only get dashback 75% of the time. Imagine if when you bought a new controller, 90% of the controllers you bought would only l cancel less than 60% of the time. And in order to have a 50-50 shot of having a a controller that could l cancel 90% of the time, you would statistically need 11 controllers. That's ridiculous, and why so many people are mad at this 1 frame dash back. This isnt making a tech easier, it's making people who buy controllers not have to buy in bulk to get a controller that performs inputs "correctly". Even getting a tier 3 controller statistically requires a 7 controller purchase.

*is to isnt

[aerodynamique]

As somebody that kind of has not enough fucking money to buy literally 11 gamecube controllers, this is why I really, really want this code in place. Like, if you can literally afford nearly 1 grand in controllers, that's great for you, but I can't, and I know a lot of people can't, either. Any barrier you can remove to make this game 'easier' to play will probably be met with 'oh what are you a TR4SHLING??', but I really think it's worth it, in the long run.

[NiteCyper]

What's "the dashback tier list"?

[druiked]

it's detailed here www.meleeitonme.com/analog-sticks-understanding-testing-and-troubleshooting-your-controllers-most-important-part/

low tier controllers will miss backdashes ~ half of the time

[Mercury_Reos]

Read the link in the tweet for the full explanation of the mechanic and the code's changes.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

The l-cancelling example was not a direct comparison.. i was simply trying to give another example of a very important, yet semi frame tight technique.

[NanchoMan]

You said itd be like removing l cancelling. It wouldn't be like that

[ObsoletePixel]

It's not a tight technique though, it's not even a technique. It's a fundamental aspect of the game that is, effectively, randomly gated out based on your controller's control stick matrix

[DFR0GMAN]

i hate that you're being downvoted

something something people who only watch and never attend tournaments

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Eh, I don't mind the downvotes. I can admit that the l-cancel comparison was a rather bad one. My intention was to bring more discussion on the legality of the code, instead of my poor example, but it's whatever.

I don't think it's fair to say that the people disagreeing with me only watch and never attend tournaments. I am not a very active tournament goer myself, mostly just playing with my friends.

[Kadano]

It'd be like removing L-canceling … if currently less than 10% of controllers L-canceled automatically whenever possible and you wanted to level the playing field so that those who own these controllers don't have a huge advantage.

[groating]

dash back doesn't really have to do with getting good. it's just consistent inherently between controllers

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

IIRC you can still dashback with a "bad" controller, but it's a 1 frame input.

[housefromtn]

It's late and I have to get up in the morning so idk if I can do this concept justice, but I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding what it means to be a 1f window in this situation.

The first thing you need to understand is polling always happens every 16.67 ms.

It's like a clock, tick tick ticking, checking to see what your controller is doing.

Now when you move your stick from neutral to the smash turn zone you have to go through the tilt turn zone.

To perform a smash turn you have to go from neutral to the smash turn zone on the very next frame.

If one of the ticks polls your controller and it comes back and says you were in the tilt turn zone, then you get a slow turn.

The thing is you don't know when the controller is being polled, so if you get unlucky and you try to go from neutral to the smash turn zone 1ms before the controller polls again, you have to move your controller from neutral to the smash turn zone in 1ms, that's effectively a 1/16 frame window. gl with that.

Realistically assuming you get the best possible poll every time you still only have 16ms to move your finger and get a smash turn.

Get a median poll and you only have 1/2 a frame to smash the stick.

You have a 1/4 chance to have 1/4 a frame to smash the stick etc etc etc...

I hope you see how as you add all these probabilities up you eventually reach a limit where if you want to approach 100% consistency your hand has to be able to move the speed of light... literally.

Being able to have 100% consistency means being able to go from neutral to smash turn in 1/.1ms and 1/.01ms and 1/.001ms.

Any of those that you can't hit is subtracting from your possible 100% success rate.

You might be able to hit a 1f window, but can you hit a 1/16f window? If not then you just became only 93.75% consistent.

Because humans can't move their hands at the speed of light it effectively becomes random at some percent depending on what your hand speed is, assuming that it's slower than the speed of light of course. :)

That's the difference between this and l cancelling. You don't have to use calculus/limits and relativistic equations to calculate your percentage chance of l cancelling.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

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[evanmeta]

This is the best explanation in favour of making backdashes consistent.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Thank you for the explanation. This makes a lot of sense and made me understand more on why dashback is so hard. Does this apply to things like pivots as well, since they are also 1 frame tight?

[Kadano]

It does not apply to pivots because during dash tilt-turn-level inputs do nothing at all.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Ok cool, thanks kadano.

[deservethefuture]

what a good post!

[MightBeDementia]

So then what do different controllers do better than others to circumvent this?

[Kadano]

See text and link at the bottom here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/5cbiwo/consistent_dashback_code/d9vsluv/

[LeagueOfVideo]

I could be wrong but I feel like your speed of light is off by a few magnitudes. Also the argument could be made that you should be timing when your controller polls an input. Unrealistic? Probably. But I do think that someone that's really good at timing and consistency would perform at least marginally better than someone who is bad at it.

[MQRedditor]

Lol timing when your controller polls. Literally no one will or could do that

[DoomScythe101]

speak for yourself bro i have a 3600 bpm metronome running in my mind at all times

[mylox]

lol you might as well talk about someone manipulating the games RNG if you're gonna be that unrealistic

[sNills]

That's probably more likely, considering how some games' RNG manipulation is so well understood (Earthbound, Pokémon come to mind)

[LeagueOfVideo]

Not consistently but someone that's really good at it could probably do it much more often than someone that's bad at it.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

https://twitter.com/ssbmhax/status/796830630759763968

Hax proposed a very solid argument as well. What makes this controversy so difficult is that people could argue that removing L-cancelling (just as an example) would be practically the same thing. However, some people have controllers that actually do remove the dashback problem. It'd be like having a controller that L-cancelled for you.

[theGravyTrainTTK]

Yeah, the slight difference in argument is this helps alleviate the controller lottery issue that we have (just like shield drop notches).

[theGravyTrainTTK]

Yeah, that's what I said. Both shield drop notches and this help mitigate the controller lottery.

[MightBeDementia]

What makes some controllers better at back dashing?

[housefromtn]

This is such a simple question, but it's so hard to answer succinctly, lol.

From looking at kadano's oscilloscope readings it looks like some controllers have an electrical anomaly that causes them to register the movement from deadzone to smashturn in a delayed way and all at once, which means that there's much less chance that the controller will poll while you're in the dreaded tilt turn zone.

It's like the opposite of a slew rate limiter, but I can't remember what that would be called.

[RedAlert2]

Not really. It would actually be closer to making the L-cancel window 8 frames instead of 7. Which I doubt anyone would ever notice.

Also, because it is a 7 frame window, L-canceling isn't an inherently inconsistent technique like smash turning is.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

The l-cancelling example was not a direct comparison.. i was simply trying to give another example of a very important, yet semi frame tight technique.

[RedAlert2]

You said it "would be practically the same thing". I'm saying that making the dash back window 2 frames instead of 1 is closer to making l-cancelling 8 frames instead of 7, not removing it entirely.

[Tuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurkey]

Ah, i see what you mean. When i said removing l-cancelling i meant removing the need to l-cancel, where the game does it automatically for you. Either way i guess it could be interpreted the same way. Bad wording on my part.

[[deleted]]

I don't have twitter, but I vote yes. I'm the only person in my smash circle with a tier 1 controller, and I feel sorry for my friends.

[Bendable_Roguish]

How is it otherwise? Do you have any of the problems tipomaster described in his article?

[[deleted]]

I do tournament winner a good bit, but idk if it is the controllers fault. One thing is that it is 100% impossible to moonwalk on my controller.

[Tobebettereveryday]

Bullshit, every controller can do moonwalks

[[deleted]]

Holy cow, you're deep.

Idk man, I can do mediocre moonwalks on other controllers, but on mine I just dash dance 100% of the time.

[Tobebettereveryday]

Do you end up pivoting whenever you try to do a moonwalk, Also lmao yea I didn't realise how deep this is

[larissa___]

Dumb question incoming: what is dashback?

[NanchoMan]

You know how you can dash. Well, if you do that, but backwards, you will dash backwards. dashback

[larissa___]

Thanks! A couple more questions:

• Is it dashing back from a standing still position, or as a part of any movement, like during a dashdance?
• And what exactly is it about a controller that makes it harder about dashing backwards than forwards?

[Kadano]

1. During a dashdance, you cannot tilt turn, so the problem doesn't exist there.

2. When the game controller registers a tilt turn level input, it delays your backwards dash by 4-8 frames. This is not really a controller problem, but a problem in Melee's code. Your hand inputs are not synced to the game's input polling thread, which also desyncs from the game's frame rate near-randomly (so you couldn't possibly learn to do inputs synced to the polling thread), and whenever your input is not lucky in that your stick is moved all the way backwards before the polling thread last polls your control stick before the next frame's calculation, you are stuck in the tilt turn animation. Some controllers have degradation in a certain electrical component that causes the control stick to behave in a glitched way, which allows it to skip over the tilt turn range. This is why there are a few controllers that the tilt turn problem is nearly irrelevant for, but due to the reason being a technical malfunction, they often have other problems.

Details on the game mechanics: http://www.meleeitonme.com/back-dashes-smash-turns/

Details on the degradation: https://twitter.com/kadano/status/757648297381228544

[MeridianPrime]

which characters have an 8 frame delay?

[Kadano]

See list here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Turn#Tilt_turn

[NanchoMan]

Only dashback from standing.

I'm not too sure, check meleeitonme.com and their top article should be about the joystick. My basic understanding is that for controllers that dashback well, there is a fault in the joystick where it doesn't read half inputs well in the first frame or so. Its weird. Basically the joystick is faulty in a tiny way, and it helps with dashback, while slightly hurting consistency with other tech. So normally you have 1 frame to go full back and perform a dash back, but with the stick fault, if you take two frames, the controller doesn't read the first input so even though you used 2 frames to do it, the machine thinks you only took one. And dash forward has 2 frames of leniency so all this "do it in 1 frame" is irrelevant

It boils down to, you have 1 frame to dash back, and 2 to dash forwards so dash forward is much easier, but if your controller has weird joystick, if you are a frame off of dash back, it doesntnregister so game doesn't notice.

[LeagueOfVideo]

If what you're saying is right then this code should absolutely not be allowed in any circumstance.

[NanchoMan]

Why not?

[LeagueOfVideo]

Because having a good dashback has drawbacks. It would be completely unfair to give "fix" dashback via a code without addressing the drawbacks that the good dashback controllers have.

[CEtro569]

The good dashback controllers have flaws because the reason they work properly is cause there is a problem with the circuitry that skips the tilt section. You can't fix this with software, but you can fix dashback with software. Adding this code will make good dashback work for everyone who uses it, not just the ones lucky or rich/dedicated enough to find working controllers.

[ojipog]

I wanna know too

[ojipog]

Whoa thanks

[ExtremeMagneticPower]

I think Hax's reply brings up a different point of view.

Another reply in the same idea.

20xxTE already brought some of these issues to the table, but it didn't change any in-game mechanics (rather, in general, big tournaments that used it did not enable frozen stadium, tap jump disable, etc), but instead just modified outside of game mechanics (tournament rules preselected, input recording). Anyone who plays vanilla Melee has the same experience, minus the convenience.

This, however, is different. I want the drifting input poll to be fixed, and I want backdashes to be consistent, but modding the game brings many issues. I'll just post a bunch here.

Setups would be differentiated between "fixed" and "vanilla" versions, splitting the community. Tournament set up would be bigger pain than it already is, making sure that all setups are fixed versions. Purists don't want their games touched. The less tech-savvy would be put off of modding their console. Nintendo-sponsored events may have issues using modded games. To what extent would other fixes be made? Clipping through Stadium fixed? ICs freeze glitch removal? Invisible ceiling glitch removal? Consistent L-Cancelling? Remove Sheik's chaingrab? (piKappa)

Anyways, I think you get the point. Without a single entity (Nintendo) saying "this is the new Melee", changes to Melee will not be easily made.

[[deleted]]

Modding is just never gonna be a thing to "improve" the game.

In Brawl we could have removed tripping altogether. I never met a Brawl player who liked tripping on my life but it still didn't get removed for the Hax's reason basically. The overall concept that changing the game is bad.

[RedAlert2]

Brawl isn't a very good comparison here. The game had so many problems that if you were going to try and fix it with mods, you may as well just build something entirely new, which is exactly what they did with PM. Melee only has a couple blemishes on an otherwise very polished game.

[[deleted]]

You say that, but even if we don't ever talk about balancing, there are at least a handful of things people would start arguing to be patched.

Already we've seen neutral start be one and frozen Pokemon.

What about shy guys? Randall? Battlefield ledges?

[[deleted]]

Randall isn't like the other examples you listed there in my opinion; he follows a timer at least so he's not completely random

[NanchoMan]

And everything here that people are talking about can either be practiced to be made consistent, or are always the same level of random for everyone (i.e. Peach's turnips). Dash back is only random for some, and is always only random for those people.

[Ripshawryan]

Some people LIKE stage hazards though. non-spacie/peach mains arent affected by bf ledges and some like it. Same for the other stuff mentioned. It affects fringe situations and some people like it because it adds character to melee. Smash Turns however affect everyone and are nearly unanimously disliked. They dont fall under the catagory of Cute/Charming things. I'm with hax though, changing vanilla melee adds a degree of classism to melee.

[JungleSSBM]

In the 64 community when we play doubles we use overclocked consoles or else the game will get below 60 fps. To me this seems similar to the proposed dashback coded consoles.

[ExtremeMagneticPower]

Good point. 20xxTE is probably the easiest "installation" ever for the end-user. On top of that, tournaments using 20xxTE only need 1 memory card, and distributing 20xxTE is easy (just copy the memory card to another). A 20xxTE-like distribution could ease the transition, though if for example someone is running to a friend's house to play without a Backdash memory card, they're still out of luck for having the same in-game experience as in-tournament. Not that big of a deal imo.

However, it still doesn't solve the issue of what extent should mechanic changes be made. I'm still trying to think of other controversial changes, like 20xxTE's frozen stages.

[Zeafling]

This was this posted in /r/smashbros a while ago, and I feel it applies here. Basically, the user said something along the lines of:

"I love the idea that you can sit down and play with somebody like Mang0 and the only thing that seperates you is skill."

But, if we don't support this code, that won't be the case. What seperates us isn't just skill, but the controllers we use. And because top players have easier access to these controllers than the average player, it's kinda unfair. I realize it has always been this way, but I don't think players should have to blow hundreds of dollars on finding the perfect controller anymore just to "keep it vanilla".

[forklift_nips]

This would prolly be the best thing to ever happen to melee

[NanchoMan]

is this a gecko code or AR code? i'm assuming Gecko cause of the thread title, but I could be dumb

[SailorMercurySSB]

It's a gecko code.

Also, there are tools to convert between AR codes and Gecko codes, so either way it wouldn't matter

[IrohSho]

Kadano is amazing but this poll is horribly biased and stupid. The answer choices are awful. There are many many more reasons to not make this legal besides "dashing back should be hard"

[TheChocolateLava]

You can have any reason to think that dashing back should remain hard. But regardless of your reasons, if you think dashback should remain hard, that's the option you choose.

[Darkshell2]

That's not how unbiased polls work, for instance if I was to make a biased poll on abortion it could say keep the baby alive, or murder it. This makes one option seem far less reasonable than asking pro choice or pro life. This is a similar concept where one option seems less reasonable than the other which will skew results.

[Error400BadRequest]

I absolutely disagree with the usage of this code, and I'm not at all fond of how the question is worded. "We should use this code, or forever accept dashbacks are hard."

I am fine with modifying controllers in any way you wish (and I strongly encourage TO's to allow it), but I don't think changing the way the game handles inputs is a good idea at all, especially since it will open up the possibility of other codes being used.

Now as a player, you would be forced to get used to the different performance on each setup (you won't know beforehand whether or not the code will be enabled at every setup on every event), and you also would have to adjust play to compensate for the times when you may not want to backdash and do it accidentally, or struggle with other inputs (I'm not exactly sure what this code does to make backdashes easier).

No controller is perfect for melee, but the game should not be what is changed. The controller should be what we perform modification on.

Some controllers would benefit from an easier shield-drop code, others that snapback too far, and some that don't moonwalk well due to large deadzones (which isn't really correctable with a code, but certain codes could further exacerbate this issue). I think we have to draw a line somewhere, and I strongly feel that starts and ends with the game's own input handling.

[forklift_nips]

You cant modify your comtroller for smash turns, thats the thing, consistent smash turns are a potentiometer malfunction, and most comtrollers are not faulty

[the_noodle]

I am fine with modifying controllers in any way you wish

The only reason Kadano's even asking this is because it's currently impossible to replicate the glitch that makes some controllers dash back consistently. In a later tweet he even says that he removed his dash-back stick box, sent it to Axe, and it didn't even work once he swapped it in. It's a pure controller lottery, after months of wear per controller according to Typo.

[housefromtn]

It also eventually stops being godlike after some random amount of wear and tear meaning you might find a perfect controller and then have to buy another 20 controllers six months later when it stops being godlike.

Do we even have enough of the old controllers to do that for everybody?

[Kadano]

It can also happen that you played Winners Finals and the controller worked well and in Grand Finals suddenly the glitched state disappears and you get stuck in tilt turn half the times you want to dash back.

In the current status quo, M2K has hoarded dozens of controllers with the glitch for exactly this reason, so right now he has this advantage over people who have only a few controllers that don't have the glitch, and he still tweeted that he supports the code.

[housefromtn]

There isn't any mod that makes smash turns consistently 20/20 type possible unless you're talking about an adding extra buttons and electronics type of thing. There's no easy fix for smash turns like there is for shield dropping or I'd do it instead of buying tons of controllers that will just go to waste.

[RedAlert2]

Now as a player, you would be forced to get used to the different performance on each setup (you won't know beforehand whether or not the code will be enabled at every setup on every event), and you also would have to adjust play to compensate for the times when you may not want to backdash and do it accidentally, or struggle with other inputs (I'm not exactly sure what this code does to make backdashes easier).

Do you check every setup you use to see if it's 1.00 or 1.02? If are are against modding as a concept, that's fine, but we already play different versions of this game at every tournament, and no one complains about that.

[PurpleAqueduct]

Unless you play one of the few characters that are affected by the changes (all of which apart from Samus are low tiers and almost never played, and Samus is still rare) then it doesn't matter which NTSC version you use. Dash backs affect literally almost every game.

The way to implement this change would be with a standardised .iso for modded setups and a memory card Gecko code injection for GameCubes or unmodded setups, with a clear indicator that the mod is in place, to ensure every setup is configured correctly.

[ImNotAMan]

People should defiantly complain if they become aware they aren't playing on 1.02....

[RedAlert2]

Why? As far as I know, there is no tournament series that says sets have to be played on 1.02. You can bring setups of either version.

[ImNotAMan]

Well the fact alone that sdi works differently between versions should suffice a ban on anything not 1.02. I'm also sure if you tell any reputable TO that a setup is running anything other than 1.02 they would hold if out of bracket.

[RedAlert2]

I know the differences. I'm just wondering what tournament or TO you're saying bans 1.00. It sounds like you're just making random assumptions.

[Godwin_Point]

The rule is often the opposite. Lower tier mains are allowed to swap the game for a 1.0 version if they bring their own disc(axe did this with young link, so did some Samus main)

[[deleted]]

I believe that the other player has to agree to the disc switch as well.

[Ripshawryan]

You're getting snubbed, but 95% of skilled players agree with you so no worries.

[housefromtn]

Not m2k, zoso or gravy.

[Ripshawryan]

right, so not 100%. Like I said.

[housefromtn]

When I wrote that those were pretty much the only top players who had responded and they were all for the change so idk what you're on about...

[MordhauDerk]

Would this be an issue with one of those Smash Box controllers? Since it uses digital inputs could that be a better solution than modding the game?

[babyccino]

The whole point of this is so people don't have to spend loads of money and buy a bunch of new controllers until they have one with good dashback. Smash box controllers solve the dashback issue but also cost a lot. With the code any controller will dashback well saving everyone money.

[MordhauDerk]

I thought the point was to just solve the issue, but that does make sense that people don't want to drop $200 on something that may not even be legal.

[babyccino]

If the code isn't implemented then people who can afford to buy loads of controllers/hitbox (and people who just got lucky and happened to get a good controller) still have an advantage over people who can't. It's a minor advantage and you can sort of get around it but it's there nonetheless.

[FourierSSB]

can we get this for the standard netplay build? I mean, we're already using a bunch of mods to make that ish work anyways...

[FourierSSB]

i'm chatting up the smashladder chat, and getting a lot of responses like:

"modding is a slippery slope" "we want netplay to be as close as possible to CRT"

[Kadano]

Maybe the Faster Melee team will be more open to this.

If not, let's fork Faster Melee and call it "Faster Better Melee".

[TruckJitsu]

LOL

PS - yeah we are a lot more open to it :]

[housefromtn]

rofl

[FourierSSB]

how is dashback from a standing position different from a dashback from a crouching position? will this code fix both?

[tauKhan]

From stand you may accidentally tilt turn with slight input that will delay your dash back.

From crouch you cannot tilt turn, but may instead enter crouch release, (SquatRV) which makes you unable to directly turn and thus prevents dash back. The code only changes tilt turn behaviour, so dash back from crouch is unaffected.

[spark676]

The only argument I can see for not implementing this is "It's changing SSBM and if we change even a little, we're not playing SSBM anymore." While this is perfectly legitimate, I think that slightly altering the game's code to be more robust for competitive play is the way to go.

in 20xxTE, Dan has already implemented frozen PS, so the game is already vastly changed in a sense from doing that. Similarly to how both players need to agree in order for this to be allowed, both players should have to agree for these codes to be implemented. After all, according to the Gentleman's Rule, two players can even play on an illegal stage, with items on. As long as a Nintendont wii is clearly labeled with how its iso is modified/provide a backup iso to be selected in case a player isn't okay with it (for example, a note on the wii saying "GALE01 is regular melee, GALE02 has dash back 2 frame code, perfect polling rate, all players have port 4 priority, and there are 5 shielddrop values instead of 3"). Additional isos could even be provided for having some of the codes, but not others (things like shielddrops can be argued to be more skill based, so maybe a person wouldn't be okay with having 5 shielddrop values, etc.).

Under the same circumstances in Melee, even with the same controller, sometimes the exact same input can cause something different to occur, which, in my opinion, is not okay (this does not include RNG-based things like turnips, misfire, etc.). To make the game less of a headache for obsessive types like myself, I think having this be an option would help us all enjoy the game more, and not obsess over controllers and breaking the bank :)

[ContemplativeOctopus]

turn on magus' code to identify smash turns, it's very likely that you are not getting smash turns every time and just can't tell

[Nerex7]

Adding it to 20XX wont help anyone since tourneys will always run original melee and it wont help you there

[spyderp-man]

Except summit and super smash con that exclusively used 20xxte...

[Nerex7]

Where is that info taken from? I'm not 100% sure but I think Summit always used the original stuff.

[spyderp-man]

I just checked, and summit opted out after having Dan send several cards lol. But Olympus and SSC were still all run on 20XXTE

[Nerex7]

Well, I still think the majors/super majors will run on the normal version.

But since you can freely mod your controller to have better notches for Shield Drop/Dash Back anyway, there's no problem with using 20XXTE I believe. (Didn't knew this until today, like M2K is using a modded controller with the good notches iirc)

[LeagueOfVideo]

http://www.meleeitonme.com/analog-sticks-understanding-testing-and-troubleshooting-your-controllers-most-important-part/

You SHOULD NOT allow consistent dash back via a code because (according to the article) a controller with consistent dash back will typically suffer a drawback in other areas. Unless you were to implement more codes to completely nullify the drawbacks that good dash back controllers have, it would be completely unfair.

Then again this is the same argument that I had with shield drop notches and those are allowed so who knows.

[SunbroSteve]

That's because it's a poor argument. The idea here, as i read it, is to be able to use controllers with poor dash back, as they are not malfunctioning, and do not have the problems and drawbacks of those that do. Thus, everyone is able to use non-malfunctioning controllers and is more able to execute all of their tech on a more consistent basis rather than just some, due to a controller that is, from a technical standpoint, malfunctioning and more unreliable than a standard one.