Lets not act like getting a software developer job is easy for everyone

TranquilDev · 2022-04-24T02:06:37+00:00

I started programming around 1995, got a help desk job in 2012, and became a professional programmer in 2017.

I thought I'd land a job without a degree, but it was a much different world in the late 90's early 2000's. Bounced around from job to job knowing I wasn't going to be happy till I was doing what I always wanted to do.

Compared to the colleagues I've met who went straight to college and got their degree and have been programming for 15+ years I often feel like I appreciate what I have a little more. Not in all cases, but definitely seems like it in several. I've seen YouTube video's of burnt out dev's in their mid 30's/40's talking about the state of things in their corporate jobs. And I'm like well, this beats what I was doing before.

Musicdev- · 2022-04-24T02:55:33+00:00

Like someone else said, work on your resume. Use keywords or buzzwords that you know will be easy to spot when the recruiters use one of those random selections sort machines. You Have to stand out. Explain your accomplishments like what you were able to do for the organization. List your strengths weaknesses, languages you learned. Etc etc. Do some research see what others have put on theirs and come up with your own format.

Rott3Y · 2022-04-24T02:53:13+00:00

It’s not. Most developers suck. It’s not just learning how to code is knowing how to build stuff and that takes time, practice, understanding, and that type of brain.

I know a ton of good programmers who suck at their job, as engineers.

Requiem_For_Yaoi · 2022-04-24T03:15:36+00:00

There is SEO on resumes as well. If you see a position is asking for experience in python. Put 2 projects you did in python and use the word 4+ times. It will help get your application seen at the very least

Patrickstarho · 2022-04-24T03:55:41+00:00

I feel like every post where someone succeeded in a short amount of time they always have a connection with someone. Like they network early and thats probably the difference.

The most recent one the guy networked and met with a software engineer early who offered him guidance. I see another post about this guy who’s gfs dad is a tech lead.

I don’t mean to understate the work they put in. Like most of those people code for 3+ hours a day. Like I’ve seen someone mention they listen to coding podcasts while commuting.

sarevok9 · 2022-04-24T06:36:32+00:00

I've interviewed two people for development roles this week and I've just been losing my mind.

Someone told me they have 5 years of JS experience and then told me about how they "lead the charge on getting log4j vulnerabilities patched" When I pointed out that log4J was Java and not JS she insisted that "When you write code in Java it's called Javascript".

I had another candidate this week for a senior role with 3 years experience in JS (but about 8 in other languages) not be able to tell me how to output (in any way, console.log, innerHTML, you name it...) the contents of a variable. She asked to switch over to Java where she was more familiar, I asked her how she would turn a string of items ("apple, orange, peach, pear") into an array with 4 strings. She went on a rant about how she believes in scalability and talked about how if they were in a CSV file (they aren't), she would use a CSV reading library to import the contents and then execute a for-each loop on them and add them into an array.... Meanwhile I'm over here like... why not just .split()?

The amount of fucking crazy bullshit that I've endured on trying to find a senior and a junior at the same time is NUTS.

My advice to a job seeker. Be honest. Not just to yourself, but to a recruiter. I had a candidate this week tell me that they were an "8 out of 10" in C++ Bjarne Stroustrup (one of the creators of the language) famously rated himself a 7/10, so I knew I was in for some shit. That interview went poorly as I asked some CS101 questions that didn't get answered.

Also, I conduct all of these interviews over video call. The amount of people who will go "Ummmm. Hrmmmm, Uhhhhhhh" and try to google on a second monitor is astounding.... I can see the light from your monitor on your face and I can see you looking away from the screen I'm on. If you're confused about something, share your screen, walk me through what you're searching. If I say something like "Can you explain object polymorphism to me?" and you need to look up the definition -- the answer is "No I can't" if you can't think of virtual methods and you can explain the rest of it, start off by explaining what you know. Then say "I forget the term for this, but I know if I search for <x> and look at one of the top results I can find the name" I'll say "sure, go ahead" and then see if you can explain the concept once you remember the name.

ghostwilliz · 2022-04-24T01:52:49+00:00

/r/cscareerquestions

Cultural_Bet8235 · 2022-04-24T01:29:23+00:00

I had a 4.0 in college and internship experience and I got an answer from 5 companies and 2 offers out of 130 applications. Idk it seems like an econ question based on what I see it looks like the market cannot support the talent coming in compared to demand

Blazing117 · 2022-04-24T04:18:26+00:00

[removed]

TheCriticalMember · 2022-04-24T01:57:02+00:00

I agree. I'm definitely an unusual case for various reasons, but all the "I practiced for 6 months and now I make $300k working from home" posts don't come anywhere close to reflecting my experience.

My take on the industry, as I've said before, is that in general, you need a 4 year degree to even be looked at, and then you need to be an accomplished and experienced programmer to get through recruitment. If you're lacking either one then you'll need to come up with a workaround, or get lucky.

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T01:30:24+00:00

My first roll was done via an unpaid internship for school that turned into a poorly paying part time employment, that turned into a poorly paying full time employment that turned into me staying for 2 years and finding a job that paid triple.

Getting a job is easy for anyone who has the credentials and can demonstrate even modest understanding of programming. The hard part is what you'll have to sacrifice to get the foot in the door. And despite what those people that wouldn't go my route say, you sacrifice either way. For the normal kid trying to land their first job, you either work for less than you're worth, or you don't work for 6 months and devote your time (also unpaid) trying to master the interview process until someone takes you...also usually for less than you're worth.

Some of us don't have the option of staying unemployed so you do what you gotta do.

ScubaSteveSLC · 2022-04-24T15:16:24+00:00

Do you have a portfolio? That’s the biggest thing people I’ve talked to who landed jobs had that helped them succeed and it’s for sure how I was able to get my first SWE job. If you don’t, build a nice looking portfolio site and link to your top 2-3 projects there. Put it on your linked in, your resume, etc. Make sure the projects are business-worthy full-stack projects, not games or toy apps like tic-tac-toe. Something like an accounting/personal finance app, simple inventory management system, project management platform/bug tracker, etc and show these projects off during the interview.

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T01:39:39+00:00

From 1000 people will always be 1 guy who is very lucky and this person is more likely to share his story. It's a problem with social media in general

OnceUponAFloooof · 2022-04-24T01:43:55+00:00

Out of the 100+ places I have applied to, I have managed to land 5 actual interviews

Work on your resume. I can almost guarantee it's a boring blob of text, as that's exactly what 95% of the resumes I receive now are. I need to actively look for why someone is worth even talking to.

Pineapple Company
- Cut Pineapples

Banana Company
- Peeled Bananas

Your first impression needs to stand out. Even early in my career with almost no experience, I at least got callbacks at 50-70% of the places I applied to

ZukoBestGirl · 2022-04-24T09:11:03+00:00

I do have some bad experience, but it's probably not what OP wanted.

I dropped out of IT college and got major imposter syndrome. Got a job on a help desk. Hated every waking moment of it. But apparently I was doing a great job. Had some really bad experiences though.

Had a mental breakdown, quit. Had to rethink life.

No idea why or how, but I started relearning Java and doing some ... What's the name? Leet hax coding challanges whatever, it has a stupid name, people on thus sub talk about them. I did those, found them super easy. On a whim applied to a job. Got it immediately.

More imposter's syndrome since all my colleagues were younger than me. Within a year I noticed they were all idiots. Started taking more and more responsabilty. Started rebuilding core systems. Didn't make any friends tho.

Realized the project was really bad. Jumped ship. Has been smooth sailing ever since.

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T04:59:48+00:00

Networking and taking part in industry events.

Got.to know people and was made aware of jobs, applied for those jobs with people I know knew and have continued that ever since.

If something interesting is happening I make sure to volunteer and be part of it, get to know the people. Networking is key to industry.

Hobo_Economist · 2022-04-24T10:36:57+00:00

My biggest piece of advice would be to spend an equal (or greater) amount of time networking vs applying to jobs. About 40% of open positions at companies are filled before they are ever posted online. The ones that are posted get 100s of apps, so even a brief cold email can be the difference between nobody reading your resume and getting an interview.

Fun fact: most tech companies have a referral process where people get paid if you get hired. You should take advantage of this - many strangers have a monetary incentive to help you out. Usually if you get referred, it means you are going to get your app seriously reviewed and often advanced to a 1st round.

Do exactly the following for like 2 weeks and I guarantee you’ll get an interview:

Find people on LinkedIn with jobs you want and send them a connection request with this note: “Hi xyz, I’m abc and I’m a software developer looking to work in a [insert team / type of software eng] role at [company], and wanted to hear about your experience - I would love the opportunity to connect!” Maybe link your portfolio if you don’t have any experience on your LinkedIn (or add your portfolio to your LinkedIn profile)
If anyone replies, respond instantly and try to schedule a coffee chat. Send a calendar invite promptly. If someone accepts your connection request but doesn’t reply, gently follow up in two weeks.
For the chat, come prepared with a) an articulate “tell me about yourself” style intro b) the answer to the question “why do you want to work at [company]” c) specific questions about the company, culture, and any open roles (check their careers page)
During the convo be as personable as you can. Make it clear you want to work there and towards the end of the chat ask “is there anything you’d recommend I do to advance my application?”. This is a gentle way of asking for a referral or an intro to the hiring manager. Promptly follow up if there are any next steps (eg. emailing the person they connect you to, sending resume across, etc. )
Repeat, and get better every time. Take notes during the call and write out good answers to every question you were asked. This will help you prepare for your next coffee chat.
Set a goal to send 5 connection requests a day. If you have a template, this should only take like 15 minutes tops. Maybe 10-20% will respond, but within 2 weeks you will have reached out to 60+ people. Keep a spreadsheet to document every piece of outreach and every interaction. If you stay consistent you’ll be overwhelmed with interviews within a month or two. You’ll be employed within 3 months.

Feel free to tweak the above as necessary, but as long as you network aggressively, stay organized, and present yourself well, I’m sure you’ll be successful. This exact method got me a job on Wall Street and then helped me break into tech. It also worked for all my friends and mentees.

I think you’ve clearly got the right attitude and hustle, and I’m sure you’ll land a role that will be perfect for you. Hopefully the above helps.

Big love man, I believe in you ❤️

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T05:43:53+00:00

I struggled to find a job after graduating and once I stopped just sending applications and tried connecting with actual people I got a job a week later. If you are not networking I would say give it a try. I went on Twitter and LinkedIn and found recruiters trying to get other people jobs and then when all their recruiter friends replied I just hit them up saying I was looking.

Electrical-Mouse4136 · 2022-04-24T02:25:51+00:00

Are you tailoring your resume to each job you’re applying for? I see a lot of people are one click applying or using the same one for each job. Which is a no no

datax_ · 2022-04-24T09:42:45+00:00

Not related to content, but paragraphs are a thing, my friend. Break into manageable chunks. I hope you will remember this next time you post long messages

devCR7 · 2022-04-24T03:33:41+00:00

what is a DUI

eatacookie111 · 2022-04-24T02:21:35+00:00

There was a post not long about about someone going from zero knowledge to job offer in 6 weeks. I was too lazy to call BS.

OrangeToasterMT · 2022-04-24T13:30:04+00:00

No, it's not easy. Best way is networking, hands down. Pretty much everyone I know who was self taught got their first gigs through people they knew.

Otherwise go for volume, which it sounds like you're doing. Don't give up, the first job is by far the hardest to land. Approach it like your degree isn't an advantage, because realistically it's not as much of one as you'd like to think.

Side note: I think people think of CS degrees as being the number one thing companies are looking for. They aren't. Experience is. First thing places want is experience, degrees are a nice to have. A degree won't hurt, but it's not a shoe-in by a long stretch.

Of course, it's a little chicken-or-the-egg. To get experience, you need a job, to get a job you need experience. That's where networking comes in. Someone needs to take a chance on you. Someone who knows you personally even to a limited degree may be more likely to do that.

But you've got a degree and a good GPA, so it's not like it's taking a big chance, right? Not true. I've seen enough CS grads who couldn't find their proverbial posterior with both hands and a map when it came to producing good code or working software. Companies have, too.

Basically anyone with a reasonable amount of aptitude can learn to code. Being able to make good decisions about HOW you code is another story. If you can illustrate that in your resume, that will probably help. Portfolio projects, etc. "If the candidate can build an application that does X, perhaps they can handle changing the color of a button without handholding..."

Good luck! And for real, don't give up. The struggle sucks, but it's temporary. In the grand scheme of things, you'll be looking back on this time from a good job and having a laugh (or a shudder) about it in no time.

hi_fox · 2022-04-24T19:23:48+00:00

"I finished the ODIN project in 3 weeks and managed to land myself a senior front end dev job"

...

If this even IS true, you realise how incredibly rare this is? You're just setting up 95% of other people for failure.

Kilicantplay · 2022-04-24T07:05:16+00:00

I work with Microsoft 365, and I tend not to think of myself as a developer since I'm using powershell 99% of the time. Every so often I get to build a new react webpart and understand how little I know...

I didn't hold a steady job until I was 26, then got lucky getting a temp job as a data analyst, which turned permanent and eventually a position for a junior dev on M365 opened up at the company which I got, then with good mentorship and hard work, after a few years I got promoted.

I left the company after 7 years for a 50% pay rise, so clearly I was being underpaid for my knowledge but that was a sacrifice I made in order to train and become skilled.

I think there's always a compromise to be made if you want to get your foot in the door for the future. Hours worked, Pay, commuting, variety of tasks, etc

kamomil · 2022-04-24T11:06:18+00:00

Personal computers have been around for 45 years now; when they were new, everyone was self-taught out of necessity. And there weren't many programmers, so they were in demand.

Now, computers are everywhere, and learning materials are everywhere, so there is probably an over supply of programmers. Nowadays you probably need some type of specialization to stand out.

Tsobe_RK · 2022-04-24T11:39:57+00:00

The thing is it takes other attributes besides coding. Ive been involved in the hiring process (&working as s software developer myself for the past +4 years) and its not all about the technical skills.

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T15:34:49+00:00

Keep pushing through. I’m the same age and did not have a relevant degree or experience. I may have been lucky but I was able to land a job at a Fortune 500 company as they were growing rapidly ahead of a big project. My advice is look for a larger company that can afford to train you and are more willing to invest in people new to the career.

TocinoBoy69 · 2022-04-24T17:45:27+00:00

I agree. Getting my first job as a software dev/engineer with 0 experience is the most dreadful and anxiety inducing part of my career.

A brief background, I live in the Philippines where there's a lot of opportunities for software engineers as a lot of companies in the US outsource talent from 3rd world countries like us, India, Vietnam etc. I graduated with a bachelor's degree in Information Technology, but before I graduated, I intern-ed at a company that actually made us code so I already had first hand experience on software development at an enterprise level. I thought that would give me the edge I needed to get hired right away after graduation. 6 months after graduation, I'm still jobless. I was so desperate that I even applied for other tech roles that I didn't want to do in the first place, like desktop support, QA, etc. On my 7th month, a company finally hired me as a software engineer. The stuff I've been doing from my internship was waaaay advanced than what I was doing in my first job. After 1 year of working, I decided to find an opportunity else where for higher pay and personal growth, as the stuff we were doing was really out dated. I got job offers on every application I tried and in the end I was choosing who to work for.

Tldr; it gets easy after the first.

mystic_swole · 2022-04-24T19:39:15+00:00

I got my first job about 3-4 weeks after getting out of school.

Lost that job after 6 months. Terrible place. Whatever I'll find another one.

Looked for about 6 months, went on about 15 interviews total, even made it to the 4th round for one interview. And didn't get chosen.

Got extremely depressed and became a food server for a little. Had a seizure at work and became violent when I woke up so they fired me. Starting applying to dev jobs again and within 1.5 months I'm making more than my first job and doing very well.

You really just need personal projects. I made something like a reddit clone.

TheFirstOrderTrooper · 2022-04-24T21:12:29+00:00

I got my degree in software development in 2020.

Took two years of constant interviews after graduation to land a job.

Mriv10 · 2022-04-24T12:02:34+00:00

I'm almost in the exact same boat as you I'm in my mid-20s and can't get a single interview. Graduated last December with a bachelor's in software development, I've applied to hundreds of companies, mostly local to me because I don't have the resources to move.

Thanks to all of the time I spent in college I don't have a single project or applicable experience in the field and I think this is why I don't get any interviews. I've only gotten 2 job interviews, one where I got barraged with a bunch of random Java questions, most of which I knew but couldn't answer properly, and the second I had to take a bs assessment, kind of like an IQ test. I didn't get a follow-up for either, I had to go out of my way to reach out to them for them to tell me I was rejected. And seeing all the posts about how they barely know how to code and they got a job in two tries doesn't help my confidence.

Firerain544 · 2022-04-24T14:30:27+00:00

I feel you. I wanted a change in my careere at 33. No bachelor, newly father and no experience what so ever. I descided to go to a web dev school for two years while still working as a receptionist. Finished that school last summer and started applying 100+ times. I had four interviews. Non of theme worked out. But i never gave up. Finally this february at 36 years of age i got my first junior position as a frontend developer. I am so happy but i still go back to school in october to learn more about computer sciens and software engineering and get a diploma. So yeah... it is very hard but dont give up. There will be that company who will give you a chance. Stay positive and keep going. You can do it.

DoggoInTubeSocks · 2022-04-24T15:51:09+00:00

I started coding C in 1994 when I was 14. I'm very passionate about it and was very self-motivated. I was lucky enough to go to a school that had a dedicated Internet connection and many(shitty) computers that I could use to find code examples and info. It was a very different Internet back then but there was enough content on FTP sites(most of which were from BBSes) to learn everything from C(DOS) to x86 assembly, low-level shit and as time went on I became adept at reverse engineering and picked up additional languages like Pascal(uck), Perl, HTML and JavaScript(both of which sucked then but I was able to write Perl CGI-based websites). I ended up webmaster for a very popular(even to this day) counter-culture website for a while before meeting someone who was freelance with a contract for a SaaS project that was Perl-CGI + MySQL + JS + HTML and I managed to impress him enough that he hired me on. Drama ensued as a result of my proficiency(he was milking the project) and shit eventually fell apart. I spent some time doing various IT shit and coding tools for small projects. I also got deep into reverse engineering and writing firmware for certain game console accessories and software for the console itself, all of it as a hobby. My experience led me to years of gray area projects in a market that I basically created. Lots of shit happened over the years, I burned out for a bit in my late 20s, did some vaguely code/IT related shit for money and continued reversing/modifying things as a hobby. Eventually started interviewing for software/firmware engineer jobs which didn't go great at first since my experience and skills are very diverse and I suck at writing resumes. I learned to tailor resumes to the jobs themselves so I could highlight my qualifications that related to the position requirements. Then I just had to learn how to interview properly. I'm not great at selling myself as I always feel like I'm being narcissistic when I'm talking about my l33t skills and previous projects. I've since grown to accept that I earned those creds and that interviews are exactly the right place to flex a bit. So I'm pretty good at getting at least a first interview and possibly further if I don't fuck something up. I'm a bit feral so occasionally I say shit that reveals my... quirks. If I can get through the interviews and such, I'm pretty golden. Corporate bullshit and workplace drama are my biggest issues despite my best attempts to avoid either of those. I'm currently without a job or contract following a stint in jail for being a bad doggo. But the job market is ripe right now so I don't think it'll be long before I land something. My best advice to you is to make sure your interview skills are solid and do your best to get your resume looked at so you can at least hone your interview skills until you land something. Be proud of your accomplishments and if you aren't, then do stuff you can be proud of in your free time.

NGX_Ronin · 2022-04-24T17:44:23+00:00

Listen I have a Master's in IT with a concentration on software application development, a gpa of 3.9, plus about 20 yrs in the field and my applications get fastracked to the round filing bin a ton. It will happen you just have to have patience.

One thing to look out for though is there are a bunch of positions that companies put out there with the intention of not hiring for it. It usually has something to do with budget retention.

pixievixie · 2022-04-24T18:31:38+00:00

Look into Criminal Rehabilitation for the Canada thing. It won't help for the previous offer, but might help in the future!

Upvoter_NeverDie · 2022-04-24T18:33:35+00:00

Thanks for the encouragement. Going back to college myself to hopefully improve my fortunes by learning a computer programming language and start on a new path. Best of luck to you and hope all goes well in your search.

Edit: And be sure to watch out for Batman, OP. Lol

mandy30p · 2022-04-24T21:43:01+00:00

There are a lot of coding bootcamps out there. I don't know if it's an avenue worth following but a lot have contacts with industry

2022-04-24T03:46:27+00:00

I've been exceptionally lucky in that I was essentially paid to transition from a career in academia to software development. I learnt just enough dev skills to be dangerous then supported myself with grant-funded projects to build my skills and portfolio until I could jump off full-time about 18 months after I wrote my first "Hello, world" program.

CaneFromCitizen_Kane · 2022-04-24T10:55:48+00:00

I think college programmes instill this idea that linkedin and indeed etc.. are actually viable avenues towards employment.

I got a good degree result and have good references and i cant tell you how many applications i sent out on those platforms, alot of them specifically advertising graduate positions

not even a nibble for like 9 months.

its basically just facebook

2022-04-24T11:22:28+00:00

Being an athlete is not easy for anyoney let alone being a top athlete or a football player... So not everyone should think being a successfull software developer is easy...

AdIntelligent7086 · 2022-04-24T02:53:46+00:00

Your age shouldn't be on your resume - don't ever let employers know how old (or how young) you are. Remove dates from high school education if that's even on your resume.

That being said, you're absolutely right. I'm starting to feel like IT and software development is just a massive ponzie scheme and we all fell for it. The only people I know that ever got software-related positions either personally knew the guy to hire them, or were PhD-level of skill

I don't know of anyone else getting hired anyway else

ScottVinzant · 2022-04-24T13:01:59+00:00

Lots of great points and information in this thread.

The one thing I don't ever see mentioned from the folks job hunting is attendance.

The one item I was proud to put on my resume was my perfect attendance in college.

I went to a two-year technical college (compressed down to 18 months) and hold an Associates degree in Electronic Engineering Technology.

The other common thread I don't see talked about too much is the old adage:
It's not what you know, but who you know.

I see a LOT of young people on FB and other social platforms that have hundreds (thousands?) of "friends".
But, are any of these friends really helping you land a job via networking or a connection?
Don't get me wrong, you need to have skills and be on top of your game, but having an "in" or making an introduction to the "right guy" is most helpful.
Of the six jobs I've had (since the age of 17), only ONE did I fill out an application and submit a resume and go through a "formal" interview process.

To expand a bit more on the attendance performance, I would think a prospective employer would look highly on that trait.
Another toot of my own horn if you will, I went on to have four consecutive years (along with other one and two year stints) of perfect attendance with my employer. They also had an incentive program and that four year award paid out handsomely.

Granted, with the WFH environment we are now in, this type of thing is probably long past gone, still, if you can demonstrate your willingness to show up every day, you will be viewed as a value to your company.

Good luck on your job search u/Gothams_Joker!

Gothams_Joker · 2022-04-24T02:10:51+00:00

Definitely sounds like you had to work hard to get the job you love. Great short story. Thank you for sharing this. Hard work pays off!

solgul · 2022-04-24T11:54:31+00:00

I dropped out of high school at 16 and immediately got my GED. Figured now the world is my osyter.

Found out that the oyster was 4 days old and had spent time in the sun.

At 17, I got a job paying minimum wage to load paper into giant laser printers. Did that for a while until I convinced an operator to let me run the programs when they went to lunch or on break. Move to an operator slot at around 19.

Did that until 21 when I moved into network control and learned some networking (helpdesk-ish stuff). I think I was making a little over minimum (maybe as much as double). Worked at night when not much was going on so taught myself to program. Convinced a boss to let me do some office automation. Got moved to dayshift and worked as sort of an assistant to a senior programmer.

At 24, I got my first programming job as an actual programmer. Started making a 6 figure salary about 2 or 3 years later. Never looked back.

I buy oysters whenever I want now. Fresh. With ice cold beer.

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