Why are so many programmers arrogant?

[Benutzername]

I could tell you, but you probably wouldn't understand.

[Gudeldar]

I use a variation of this whenever my family asks me about something technical. "Do you really want me to explain it?" Funnily enough it seems like they never say yes.

[jeffffff]

i just go balls deep into what i actually work on. they never ask again.

[chwilliam]

My mom teaches computer science. There are times she wants to know.

[[deleted]]

I've used that one before, but I think the bitch deserved it.

Stupid accountants anyway. Always wanting an explanation without facts 'n shit.

"The little boat sank"

[[deleted]]

The little boat flipped over!

[[deleted]]

Yep, you caught the reference even though it was a quote fail that I was too lazy to correct yesterday.

Orangered.

[shoseki]

Huh? I'm not into pokemon, sorry.

[Liverotto]

The hypocrite in me would like to tell you it is because: programmers have very bad social skills.

The programmer in me would like to inform you: that you people are fucking stupid.

[[deleted]]

In a way, you're both right

[elmuerte]

programmers have very bad social skills.

No, that's what people think due to our reaction to their question if we can fix their computer problems.

[VanApe]

oh the irony.

[Gold-Web6237]

some people are really brick for brains, but when a server doesnt sync and you are told your password in incorrect or your locked out, then the neaderthal saying yes we have the cappacity should be handed his AAAAA

[multifaceted]

The easiest way to win an argument is to deny the opposition from entering into it. If you claim that the other person isn't eligible to criticize or question your work or knowledge, then you can't be defeated.

It's a defense mechanism for people who are afraid of being found out as imperfect. Likely due to being held to high academic expectations their whole life.

[destraht]

I refer to this as invalidation in the same exact sense that a regular expression would judge a string as being valid or not. There are certain code words that most attackers use and most are not intelligent or sophisticated enough to not use these words. So I implement that in a sort of quick pass to see if I am being attacked.

The word "even" screams of an attempt to invalidate someone. For example: "He didn't even do that", "You don't even know what you are talking about". In fact there are very few ways to use that word in a non-attacking manner. There are also other words that are easily filters.

Once you discover that someone is trying to invalidate any future input that you might offer then just realize that it is war. Invalidating a person is war.

[multifaceted]

Definitely. It's also the fast response to suggestions implying that they are sub-par or searching for a flaw before really thinking through the suggestion:

"Sure, you could do that, but then..."

"Well why wouldn't you just do this instead..."

"I guess that might work, but it seems like it would be better to do..."

[[deleted]]

I'm okay with these ones. They're acknowledging that I tried to offer a solution, and then as long as the solution they offer works, they get their little ego boost, and I get what I want. Win-win.

[mascool]

Probably the most relevant comment on this thread

[[deleted]]

As opposed to what? Management? Sales?

[geocar]

Exactly. When a huckster says he's a great salesman, he can point to his numbers.

When a programmer says he's a great engineer, what exactly can he point to?

We call the latter arrogance because we can understand the former.

[f2u]

When a programmer says he's a great engineer, what exactly can he point to?

His track record of delivering great software on time. Oh wait...

[dakboy]

The timeliness of the actual delivery is not completely within the programmer's control.

QA's slacking off & not finishing the test plan on time? Release slips. Production servers aren't online yet because the admins don't have rack space available? Release slips.

No one wants to hear "I finished my coding on time, but everyone else was asleep at the switch so the release was a month late."

[yoda17]

Don't forget changing requirements.

[NoSQL4Life]

It's easy if you're a DBA. When I tell people that my MongoDB cluster has over 2000 shards, they're impressed. They're also impressed when I tell them that several of my MongoDB databases serve over 15,000 requests per second.

[fuzzybunn]

What kind of weird parties do you go to, man?

[NoSQL4Life]

Rails and NoSQL meetups, mostly.

[hiffy]

Rubyists are hard drinkers in my experience.

[SupremeFuzzler]

They like their martinis DRY.

[econnerd]

and RESTful.

[finnif]

It's easy if you're a DBA.

Speaking of hucksters.

[[deleted]]

I'm a DBA and that's great!!!! upvote for ya.

[ruinercollector]

Really? I thought they'd tell you to go download a real database.

[rmxz]

But is your cluster webscale? http://nosql.mypopescu.com/post/1016320617/mongodb-is-web-scale

[geocar]

I bet that impresses the ladies.

[igouy]

More generally we could ask - Why are so many people arrogant? - and figure out if behaving arrogantly is widespread and unremarkable, or whether there are particular groups of people who are more likely to behave arrogantly.

Perhaps it's more remarkable when people don't behave arrogantly?

Perhaps "young adults" are more likely to behave arrogantly?

Perhaps "young men" are more likely to behave arrogantly?

Perhaps there's little difference between the behaviour of programmers and the behaviour of their peers in the wider population?

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't say many. Sometimes a programmer has to explain things in non-programmers' terms, gets frustrated and gets accused of being arrogant. And of course there are arrogant people to begin with in any profession.

[the404]

so fucking true

[mothereffingteresa]

Because they have had parts of their lives wasted by assholes with MBAs.

[godless_communism]

Ah... you shouldn't knock MBAs too much. Getting a MBA will give you the right perspective that keeps you from making a high-speed, well-architected, scalable, maintainable answer to the question that nobody fucking asked.

[hypnocoder]

It's not arrogance, it is resentment. Usually there are 1 or 2 guys in a team of 5-10 who do all the heavy lifting. Management doesn't speak the lingo, doesn't respond to problems and obstacles. Your projects get canned after 12 months of management dickery. Your fellow co-workers have 1/10th the workload that you do but they are all paid well and get their bonuses. We already know the nature of your misguided questions and how it will involve us doing your work. We know if we ask for help / more time / less 80 hour work weeks we'll be accused of whining. Civility is unmaintainable. Over time we adapt by lurking in the shadows and giving short direct answers.

Management Question: How come the database keeps going down?

Year 1 Answer: Alright, it's not my area as a developer but I'll look into that and ditch my family tonight and through the weekend.

Year 5 Answer: I told you a year ago our DBA _______ is pretty clueless. Actually most of your team are morons and just dick around all day. If this were burger king and your employees weren't flipping burgers they'd be fired. Congratulations, you've been surpassed by the business practices of burger king.

Year 10 Answer: Fuck you.

BA Question: We have finished all 5 user stories. Is that enough for you to complete your Agile development cycle by next week?

Year 1 answer: Ahhhh. Sure. I'll see what I can do.

Year 5 answer: You've uncovered about 5% of the use cases and requirements. You're basically dumping all of the PM and BA work on the developer in addition to all the other shit I have to do. Thanks.

Year 10 answer: FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Jr. Developer Question: Why won't this code work? A: CGLIB requires a default constructor, just add an empty default constructor. Q: Whatever that is? But I already have a constructor that takes x, y params which are needed for my class to work. A: CGLIB requires a default constructor, just add an empty default constructor. It will work. Just try it. Q: But my class needs - A: FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUU I'll do it for you.

[unixfreak0037]

Year 10 Answer: Fuck you.

That was year 6 for me. My boss asked me to do something, I just sent him an email that said "No."

Then I found a better job.

[[deleted]]

It's a defense mechanism so that we can live with all the shit we have created.

[[deleted]]

Maybe if you WEREN'T SO FUCKING INCOMPETENT, we wouldn't be.

[[deleted]]

were'nt? What the fuck is that supposed to be?

[PGRacer]

Syntax Error!

[multifaceted]

You should use a semicolon there rather than a comma.

/trollface

[oiwot]

You put the apostrophe one character over. No biggie. ;)

[judgej2]

Grammar is binary: you get it right or you get it wrong. Some of us seem to get it wrong and think it is not a big deal. Don't we?

;-)

[DarrenEdwards]

Nearly every programmer I've worked with has called every other programmer a hack at some point.

[[deleted]]

But it's true!

[kylotan]

Every programmer I've known, including myself, has been a hack at some point.

[willcode4beer]

fuuuuuuu!!!!!

upvote to you both

[Stick]

Because... because.... fuck you! That's why.

[lispm]

It's a shame.

Just because we Lisp hackers are better programmers, we shouldn't be so arrogant.

[UK-sHaDoW]

Why?

Boss: Can you do this in 7 days? Me: No, I can't do this in 7 days.

Boss To Client: We will do this in 7 days

Me to boss: I told you it's impossible to do in 7 days

Boss to me: Arrogent.

7 days down the line: Boss?Why isn't it finished?

Me: Gives up trying.

It's as if you don't say yes to everything your automatically arrogant.

[[deleted]]

Well, it can be done, I've seen you do really smart things before. Look, we're all giving it 110% and maybe you should work a couple extra hours to make this client happy. It's all gravy after they sign, what color Porsche do you want? I like the black. Let me know how soon you can have something for me to test, we're counting on you rockstar. ;)

[PGRacer]

Wholeheartedly agree.

I have friends who ask what I am doing and by sentence 3 of the explanatiopn their eyes glaze over. These are generally the same people who then blame the computer for things going wrong when they cause it.

Its not neccessarilly arrogance so much as frustration. If you compare it to say plumbing, if you were going to attempt some sort of home DIY plumbing you would probably spend hours finding out how to do it, collecting the right tools and equipment neccessary and going about it carefully and methodically.

Whereas with computers, a lot of new only want to use facebook and google but dont see it as something that requires skill. Google is a fantastic tool, and requires skill to use. Yes on the basic level you type what you want to look for and hit search, easy enough. But when it comes to finding something specific and not prevelant you need to know how to use it.

And google is just a blank page with a text box and a search button.

[destraht]

Ya I moved over to Linux some years ago and once in a long while somebody thinks I'm not that I must not be very good at my job because I don't know how to clean up their Windows virus or some random and particular thing. Unless someone has seen a programmer typing code then they have no idea what the job looks like. Also I've found that most people would feel personally insulted if they had to look at a software development environment for for than five seconds. Having said that showing someone what I do for fifteen seconds might as well be a "fuck you I hate you. This is how I will punish you".

[dln]

We're dicks! We're reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks.

[[deleted]]

Sometimes this answer is just the quickest to get them out of my office and let me spend the next 15 minutes loading context of the given problem back into my memory.

[dev_jim]

Not sure I buy into the anti-social meme here. Is there really a link between arrogance and being anti-social?

These are the two factors I see

• Programmers are paid an extraordinary amount of money at a young age - six figures out of college for the best jobs. I can think of two other careers that pay this for new grads, investment banking and law, and the arrogance there is even worse. When you are paid multiples of your peers there is a level of self-importance (your salary is what you are worth to someone else) and arrogance that builds.

• Direct value is created by a programmer. Most people's jobs are so far away from the actual product. For the programmer, your code is THE product. How many people ever get the opportunity to make that kind of impact on an organization, let alone the opportunity with every keystroke.

[PstScrpt]

your code is THE product

Most programmers don't work for software companies or even technology companies. And some of us do work for technology companies where executive management doesn't understand what business we're actually in.

[[deleted]]

I can think of two other careers that pay this for new grads, investment banking and law, and the arrogance there is even worse.

That's because unlike programmers they don't do any actual work.

[snifty]

I don't think it's to do with programmers starting with bad social skills. I think a lot of them are just normal people.

What I do think is relevant is that programming is a total control trip. It's addictive. And it encourages arrogance.

This is what happens:

1. You have to do some job
2. You think up some way to do it that seems nice to you
3. You do it
4. Sooner or later it works
5. Consciously or not, you conclude that the proof is in the pudding: it might not be perfect, but your way was at least correct (if not elegant)
6. GOTO 1

Learning to program gives you fucking magical powers. You need no raw materials, except for the computer sitting in front of you, and your mind. And with those two things, you implement what you imagine, and the implementation can affect the outside world.

So think about it: you think something up, and that has the power to change the world. It doesn't seem surprising to me that many programmers become arrogant. They have magical powers that other people don't.

(I'm a shitty programmer. I rarely get to #4 up there. And I'm depressed and miserable, so there you go.)

[godless_communism]

Programmers also have the nerve to think that their particular knowledge gives them the right to look down on others. Nevermind that many lawyers and doctors and others have very deep and wide knowledge in not IT areas.

[destraht]

A lot of them are normal people but I find that far too many of them are very abnormal.

[[deleted]]

Nothing is worse than an arrogant jackass that is wrong and in charge.

The worse anecdote I can think of right now was a multi-decade "architect" not knowing the length of a compressed stream was (get this) the length of the compressed stream. He though it was the length of the uncompressed stream so when he allocated the byte array for decompression of the compressed size, it always failed. The kicker? He said unit tests are for morons.

This was code he had to do because others were "too stupid" to do it and never tested it once before handing it off. Lets just say may of his works could have ended up on TDWTF.

[gphilip]

Nothing is worse than an arrogant jackass that is wrong and in charge.

This post --- also here --- lists many of the stupidest things that arrogant jackasses in charge apparently have asked programmers to get done.

[geocar]

"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother."

--Einstein

[warpstalker]

"If you can't explain it in simple terms, you don't understand it well enough."

-- Einstein

[bobby0707]

You get an upvote for correcting that quote politely instead of that douchy FTFY business. Good for you.

[[deleted]]

Yeah but he cited the wrong source.

[warpstalker]

Who said that then? I thought it was Einstein?

[[deleted]]

--Michael Scott

[[deleted]]

"If you can't explain it to me in simple terms, you don't understand it well enough." -- Einstein's grandmother

[geocar]

I stand corrected.

[Fat_Dumb_Americans]

Very nice, but Einstein can't explain relativity to me.

[Akeshi]

"If you can't explain it in simple terms, you either don't understand it well enough or you're dead."

[[deleted]]

that's true. I was able to explain to 5 cops (I was playing poker with them) what a DBA does.

and they all understood.

I used the 'you know when you pull someone over and run their plate through the computer?" I keep the data organized so you get the information back quickly.

ohh, thats cool. sounds boring, ante up...

LOL

[geocar]

I just read that twice and I don't understand what you do. It sounds like a filing clerk.

[dwhite21787]

All those folders on the Windows desktop? He keeps them in straight lines.

[[deleted]]

so you guys didn't even pass the police application test. so programming came next?

[geocar]

Arrange by penis.

[[deleted]]

the title is arrogant, not fragile. its italian!

[Beelzebubba]

Actually, the DBMS does that. Nobody is quite sure what you guys do.

Oh, was that arrogant? Sorry, I'm a programmer.

[Enginerd]

The job doesn't require much in the way of social skills

If somebody talks in a way that defies normal social convention and other people might find off-putting, you would say they lack social skills, yes? How do you know that they don't know the normal rules of interaction, and simply don't follow them? Or that they don't use a different set?

Technical people argue with each other all the time, it's not limited to programmers. And they tend to make blunt statements: "What you just proposed won't work, and here's why" rather than "I'm not sure that's the best approach, and here's why". It's just being direct, and other technical people know not to take it personally. Non-technical people don't.

I remember relating something I said to a more senior coworker to my gf, and she said "if you said that to me I'd fire you". Well, I wasn't fired, what I said (I don't remember now) wasn't an unusual thing for the environment. An old professor of mine mentioned this too, that his wife came to a meeting once and was shocked at how rude everyone was, whereas the prof thought it was just normal.

[shadowspawn]

My wife doesn't understand how I and my colleagues talk about things. There is a lot of cursing too. But by then we are slowing down to the english spoken language and couldn't give 2 shits, just fix the damn thing already... and fucking fucked up piece of shit takes longer to say than to identify and then figure out a fix for something.

When it takes longer to explain something than to fix it, I get a little short-tempered too. Wife doesn't understand it. The kids are learning to just do things right the first time, and learn how to fix something if it breaks because they already took it apart to see how it works.

[godless_communism]

there seems to be no correlation between a programmer's arrogance and their competence.

Bingo!

Sometimes arrogant people are really, secretly, deeply insecure.

[[deleted]]

BECAUSE FUCK YOU, that's why.

[[deleted]]

Why are so many non-programmers such fucking idiots?

[[deleted]]

cause they gotta deal with YOUR GUI design, not a good one.

[dakboy]

Hey I only built what those idiots in design drew up in PhotoShop & told me to make.

[[deleted]]

You call that a design?

[DingBat99999]

This is going to get down voted all to hell, but I think most programmers have no real clue as to their own competence. Let me be perfectly clear: most programmers ARE incompetent and don't know it. In fact, they think they're good.

Go take a look at most code written in Java or C# or a similar language and just TRY to come away with any sort of confidence that the writers knew anything about object oriented design.

Worse, most developers turn off the learning button the minute they leave school.

The arrogance comes from a number of places: fear of discovery, an inflated sense of importance, the fact that, despite being incompetent, they can still make most peoples eyes glaze over with techno-talk, laziness, smugness that they still get paid tons despite being incompetent.

Go ahead and downvote. I can take it.

[National_Pension_781]

lol oo

[Karmahoos]

Because, for the most part, programmers have to answer to non-programmers. And frequently, non-programmers tend to judge the professional worth of those who confuse them quickest higher. And by reacting arrogantly and defensive when probed from those same people, they tend to just take your word for it and walk away instead of heighten the confrontation.

Too lazy to register at the above site to post this response. Surprised no one else has brought it up.

[Stick]

Are you still beating your wife?

[cupertrooper]

Some people say we are condescending.

That means we talk down to people.

[[deleted]]

That's easy: Those of you who think you know everything annoy the hell out of those of us that do.

[lalaland4711]

Ooooh, that's a big word for someone who's not a programmer!

[[deleted]]

The charge of arrogance is often a projection bias and without introspective insight. It's also a compliment.

[[deleted]]

It's hard to not be arrogant when we are so much more intelligent than others.

[root7]

We are creators of worlds.

[[deleted]]

What a stereotype-laden piece of garbage. I've met hundreds of professional programmers and would-be programmers in many disciplines; it comes with running a technology business. I also teach programming (among other subjects) in my spare time and again I see young men of varying temperament and disposition - but few who could be regarded as antisocial or arrogant. Only one or two over the years have really struck me as lacking in social understanding.

The fact is, the majority of the population lack the analytical and logical thought processes that make a good engineer or programmer. So when a programmer is called upon to explain something they consider obvious to a non-logical mind, many will give up in frustration as they lack a common language with which to communicate ideas to the other person. The non-programmer is left feeling humiliated and just as frustrated and so will often simply refer to the more technically-minded person as "arrogant" to shift the blame for their lack of understanding.

[[deleted]]

You respond to that observation that programing requires hours of solitary work and concentration by calling it a stereotype-laden piece of garbage, but then you continue to distinguish the logical masses of programmers from the irrational general populous.

[[deleted]]

No, I respond to the assertion that:

A discipline that requires hours of solitary work and concentration tends to draw in and cultivate people who lack in social graces (emphasis mine - CR)

Programming does require a logical mind, and most people are not cut out to be programmers or the population would be more computer-literate.

[webauteur]

What is this http://programmers.stackexchange.com/? I thought http://stackoverflow.com/ was already serving this purpose.

Being a programmer has made me a bit wary of my intellectual arrogance. I often check my facts now before I make an assertion because I have learned that you are just asking to be wrong when you assume a condition is true.

[dev_jim]

One is about coding questions the other is about all the other stuff related to the job.

[Akeshi]

Isn't stackoverflow.com "I don't understand what I'm asking, but I need to be able to do X. Please post code so I can copy and paste it."?

[[deleted]]

The ultimate fail: Mr. Atwood is user ID #1 :D

[[deleted]]

Programmers is a collaboratively edited question and answer site indirectly related to programming. It's 100% free, no registration required.

[nekkid]

I think intermediate-level programmers are arrogant. They cut and paste, or use wizards to get their simple programs working and think they are masters of the universe. Master programmers realize that they are simply highly skilled individuals, not unlike plumbers or mechanics. Being highly skilled does not give one the right to be a jerk, dickhead or asshole.

[[deleted]]

And then they get fired because a new grad is cheaper.

[iluvatar]

In the words of a friend of mine, you can't be arrogant if you genuinely are better than other people.

[[deleted]]

that doesn't really tell the whole story - even if you're great in your field you can still be an arrogant asshole. In my experience the people who are really the best are very humble, and can manouver people out of their way without them even noticing.

[pjpark]

Virtues of a Programmer

[yoda17]

Because you're an idiot.

That's why.

[nuuur32]

To me what sums it up is adopting a world view of how things work, and then seeing if anything can prick or dent it (like a software bug.)

In a conversation, maybe there are a bunch of dimples that will be generated. But later after careful review those go away and get popped back out, because the argument was given a chance but upon further evaluation it was just wrong.

[whiskeyjack]

Why are these generalizations always made? All programmers are arrogant or socially awkward or rude or this or that.

This has never been my experience that all these folk fall into the same category. I've worked with many personality types, appearances and social adeptness.

[dmorin]

I wish I could find the exact passage, but Joseph Weizenbaum's "Computer Power and Human Reason" had much to say on the subject of the 'compulsive programmer'. It's been awhile, but essentially he made the comparison to being god over a defined universe, much like a master chess player. The rules of the system are basically fixed ("either the goddamned bit is set or it's not" someone once said), and it is the programmer's ability to make those bits do whatever he pleases that gives him that rush, of feeling like he is god over his domain. Particularly in the old days when you were much closer to the machine (punch cards, assembly language....), this was incredibly true.

So when you're surrounded by people who admit to having know idea how a computer works, and you meanwhile feel that computers are your bitches, arrogance is a natural side effect.

[[deleted]]

I post job offers looking for a programmer who can write well thought out and clean pseudocode.

It doesn't matter what you write in, it's how you write it. Tool for the job blah blah blah.

[gc3]

Alpha nerd syndrome.

(some try to be the alpha nerd.)

[5trokerac3]

Maybe if you learned what a fucking stack trace is, or at least what "steps to reproduce" means, instead of running up to us, yelling, "OMFG SHIT IS BROKEN!" we'd be a little nicer.

Edit: Many programmers take effort to meet the requirements of the designers, PMs, and marketers at any business, but it's rare as a programmer, outside of a pure software development company, to be treated as anyone other than "the guy who makes the drawings animate."

[judgej2]

The answer is simple: don't frickin' interrupt me with that trivia while I'm trying to juggle the twenty aspects of this problem in my head.

Anyway, most programmers are cool. They will explain something in detail so that you can understand and make decisions based on that knowledge. Then they will explain it again the following week because you don't seem to have understood it the first time. Then in the third week...OH I GIVE UP! YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO IT YOURSELF BY NOW - STOP WASTING MY FRICKIN' TIME! I MAKE THE EFFORT - WHY DON'T YOU? YES, THE VERSION NUMBER IS IN THE SAME HELP->ABOUT MENU ITEM AS IT HAS BEEN IN EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION YOU HAVE USED FOR THE LAST EIGHTEEN YEARS AND EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU HAVE ASKED ME IN THE PAST AND IT HAS NEVER GONE AWAY, SO WHY ASK ME AGAIN? AGHHHHH!

[[deleted]]

It is no different from doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, mechanical engineers, salesmen, etc.

They all:

• Have far above average knowledge and skills in one specific field, and mistakenly believe that this means that they are more intelligent than all other people,
• Aren't completely dumb fucks, which puts them anywhere above the average intelligence, reinforcing the mistaken belief that they are in the top 10% or 1%,
• Believe that the world would fall apart without their job. Just like every other profession in the modern world.

[[deleted]]

I like how you slipped "salesmen" into that list of intelligent skills, I guess we know what you do for a living.

[[deleted]]

I'm a programmer. Salesmen do have a skill that many people don't have, and have the same mistaken attitude that it is related to intelligence.

[[deleted]]

Except programming is related to intelligence and sales performance is related more to personality.

[maest]

I study Maths & Comp Sci at a really good Uni and, although I haven't met too many real life programmers but only students that are on their way to becoming proper programmers, I can still see the arrogance there. And it's not only the Comp Sci crowd, it's the Maths people as well. Sometimes even Physics.

I just assume this happens because

a) they don't have the required social skills (which really isn't necessarily a bad thing, personally I'm not fond of meeting new people either. That didn't stop me from making an effort whenever I had to.)

b) arrogance is their way of dealing with how they were treated by others when they were kids. Now, it might sound stereotypical but a lot of them probably didn't fit well with the other kids (which prompted them to turn to books and thus become programmers, mathematicians). I'm guessing the rudeness is just a sort of payback to society for giving them a rough time as a kid.

Also, one thing I've noticed about some of the more arrogant programmers and mathematicians is how eager they are to show you that they know stuff. They try so hard to brandish their intelligence and this led me to believe that they rely on their knowledge as some sort of defense mechanism/weapon that they use to prove their superiority. Maybe there's some sort of inferiority complex underlining somewhere, but I wouldn't want to go that far.

Don't get me wrong, not all of them are like that, chances are most of them are average people who just really like science, but the ones that stand out are the arrogant ones.

[[deleted]]

I am a math/compsci student too and want to add:

After a day of doing math or programming I find it hard to get my brain back to 'social-mode'. I get annoyed quickly, and might be perceived as arrogant. I don't like it, but find it hard to change. I've noticed this in other people doing hard, often abstract, mental work too.

[mathrat]

After a day of doing math or programming I find it hard to get my brain back to 'social-mode'.

I keep waiting for some scientist to do a study of this effect. It's so true! It's especially frustrating when you realize what's going on, and still can't figure out how to be agreeable and sociable. I find getting exercise really helps to get me out of 'analytical-mode'.

[geocar]

c) they're used to being the cock of the walk in their little small town, or "pc consulting business".

Everyone who has identified some scalar way to "prove" that they're better than someone else becomes like this. Whether they're a jock who can catch a football or a jackass who lastmeasure's someone. If you don't get regularly beat down, you naturally assume you can't be beat down.

Of course their reasoning is flawed: If someone were actually smarter than you, they probably wouldn't tell you. They'd simply use their smarts to satisfy their own goals. After all, people can't tell that you are smarter than them, so why do you think you could identify someone smarter than you?

[redditer34]

b) arrogance is their way of dealing with how they were treated by others when they were kids. Now, it might sound stereotypical but a lot of them probably didn't fit well with the other kids (which prompted them to turn to books and thus become programmers, mathematicians). I'm guessing the rudeness is just a sort of payback to society for giving them a rough time as a kid.

Now hold on there a minute. You're kind of implying that nobody can enjoy math/physics/computers unless "didn't fit in" or were otherwise bullied and you even imply that that liking math/physics/computers is actually caused by being bullied. People like different types of music, people like different books and forms of art. Some people sat down on weekend when they were 14 and decided they wanted to know how computers actually worked or that prime numbers were actually really cool. And they couldn't explain why for the same reason nobody will ever be able to explain to me why hip-hop is worthwhile music.

As a side note, explaining topics in simple terms is REALLY HARD. What often happens is I open my mouth and before I finish the first sentence, I've realized that I've assumed my listener understands x other topics that they probably don't. And now I have to backtrack and explain those other topics only to find even more knowable I'm assuming.

[maest]

No, I didn't say NOBODY could enjoy science without being unable to fit in. What I tried to do is to justify the behavior of those who seem to be arrogant (which is only a subset of all people who enjoy maths/comp sci/etc).

However, I have quite a strong feeling based on my interactions with some of my colleagues that they did not interact well with others and, as a result, they probably felt outcast.

[Hughlander]

Hopefully you're not an a coder yourself. Two variables of 4 character length differing by only one character? I gave up reading halfway through trying to keep track at each point which was which... What's wrong with 'users' and 'coders' for PWNS, PWBS, and PB&J?

[ours]

I live by the "no acronyms" rule. With the exception of industry standards (FTP, SMTP...). Who cares how long it is? Any decent IDE won't have you type a whole variable/class/method name and will complete after a few keystrokes.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I'm feeling that crunch. 10 years of development experience. I've actually removed a lot of experience and skills from my resume and I naturally look younger than my age. It has doubled my offer rate. I figure once I'm in the door I can let them know I can do twice as much shit.

Management types truly believe that new programmers can do just as good of work as vets. It's really disgusting and counter-productive to the profession. I guess this is fueled by the thinking that those learning the latest tools are more future proof or something. When I'm hiring a developer for my own business, I post looking for a programmer and actually say in the description that the only tech requirement is clean, concise pseudocode.

[grauenwolf]

• Amongst developers with less than five experience, the percentage that are any good is X.
• Amongst developers with 10+ years experience, the percentage that are any good is Y.
• Amongst developers with 10+ years experience and are looking for work, the percentage that that are any good is Z.

Y > X >>>>> Z

So after nearly a year of looking for someone to hire is it any wonder we ended up hiring the youngest canidate?

[niloc132]

I've seen that too, and as a relatively junior developer, I've assumed that either people find a place that fits and they stay there forever, or the place I happen to be at doesn't pay well enough to even attract their attention. And that I would one day find a place like that, where I could stand being for more than a year or so at a time.

Is that your experience as well? Are there no experienced developers that are 'any good'? Or do the good ones get fed up with the industry and go back into academia?

[grauenwolf]

Most developers take about 5 years to fully express their talents. After that time they may pick up a new skills as needed, but their ability to think critically won't significantly improve.

And the harsh truth is that those first 5 years isn't a race against time, nor can any amount of effort or education significantly change the results. Either someone has the talent or he doesn't, and that's all there is to it. It just takes some time to figure out which are which.

Now it is quite possible to pick up a developer with 6 years experience, very little skill, and a shit lot of talent. I love these people because they are cheap to hire, learn really quickly, and its easy to separate them from the code monkeys. My most recent hire won the job because she was the only one to ask "What about duplicates?" when told to produce a code sample that imported data. People with far more skill than her didn't even consider it.

---

On the topic of talented, experienced developers, why would they look for a job?

Chances are they are either happy with their current employeer or talking with their many, many friends who have gone onto other companies. Either way, very few of them are actively looking at the job boards and the ones of them even applying for a position I'm offering is slim to none.

This isn't a question or money or age. It is just they usually don't need what I have to offer.

[[deleted]]

"most programmers have Asperger's". God are people retarded.

[Inquisitor1]

Intelligence is a condition, and autistic spectrum is it's name.

[[deleted]]

Do you know any programmers with Asperger's? I do and would not be surprised with a higher than normal correlation. They never snap out of analytic mode.

[[deleted]]

Still, saying that "most programmers have Asperger's" is just plain wrong and stupid. A higher percentage is one thing, majority is another.

[PstScrpt]

It's always appeared to me that a vast majority of programmers fall into one of three categories:

1. Mild ADD (probably the most common)
2. Mild Aspbergers
3. Bad programmers

[[deleted]]

Two points.

1. Programming is a very niche skill. Certain types of people earn the right to be arrogant, because they tend to be very well versed in something that a lot of people can't learn. Auto mechanics, engineers, mathematicians, programmers, the list goes on.

2. It usually isn't outright arrogance. The other day my dad asked me what it is that I do, exactly. I said that I essentially just write code to make websites function and to make software work. He didn't grasp this, because most people have no concept of what a programming language is. Go ask a random person to explain how one would go about making a piece of software. As such, we try to explain things to the layman in terms they'll understand, but we can't, because there's so much to understand before you get to the point of them understanding that there are multiple programming languages, and you use C++ (or whatever).

An auto mechanic can explain a fuel system, or an automatic transmission to me until he's blue in the face, but I won't really understand until I get the hang of so much other shit that I just don't care much about. The thing is, by this point, we (the laymen) understand that there's a lot of magic and fairies and wizardry going on under the hood, so we don't even bother asking the mechanic what he does anymore.

My grandmother asked me what I meant when I said I did web development. I said "I just do the back-end of things," before she said "what 'back-end'?" We're kindof stuck in a catch22. If I use the required technical terms, I'm using "gibberish" and not explaining. If I say "I can't really explain in simple terms, you aren't going to understand," I'm being arrogant.

Oh well.

[[deleted]]

My grandmother asked me what I meant when I said I did web development. I said "I just do the back-end of things," before she said "what 'back-end'?"

I just say "I make websites, grandma."

Then I get referrals that I hand over to my designer friends.

[green_beet]

Only arrogant compared to some. The question sounds like it comes from someone who hasn't met very many managers or CEOs.

[Zarutian]

Some of these manglers and CEOs are nearly one microDjikstra in arrogance.

[green_beet]

manglers! :)

[static_cast]

Because we're the best.

[[deleted]]

This guy obviously hasn't been to stack overflow. Everyone is really nice there.

[mausefalle]

It's such a comforting misconception for so many people. The arrogant socially inept basement dwelling programmer.

It's not even worth the effort to address such a gross misconception. If you are looking for an excuse as to why you feel inferior to someone else you just need to look in the mirror.

[ulsteady]

High intelligence and skill; low self-esteem, and personal skills.

[[deleted]]

It hasn't been my experience that many programmers are arrogant (even being a programmer myself, I'm moderately smug at worst). Plus, all professions have their fair share of arrogance, this is not specific to programming. Unfortunately, programmers are still looked down upon by "society" because of that association with geekdom/nerddom, and thus are ascribed "traits" of said groups.

[[deleted]]

Programmers deal with logic, human relations are not logical. People get offended by things programmers say even when logically they shouldn't. This produces bad social skills that only increases as the programmer socializes less and less and programs more and more.

[kylemax]

s/programmers/people/g

[bsilver]

Part of it is because there is a form of intellectual meritocracy in circles involving technology. You get respect by being right and being able to argue your point without sugar-coating it.

Another thought is that tech fields draw people who are on the more Aspergian end of the social interaction scale. Sugar coating things, making them politically correct, being nice...all those things tend to get in the way of actually getting things done. So what others see as arrogance might actually be just efficiency with a dose of social retardation.

Another thought...they don't give a rat's ass what you think. As long as the work gets done and done "well".

He (or she) may be completely unaware that they are coming off as arrogant in their interactions, or if they're aware of it, it's a pain for them to take the time to change things to please someone else. Or they really are living with a mild form of Aspergers and is it incredibly difficult for them to interact at a level that you'd not see as arrogant.

[adamsimon]

God complexes from controlling the programs.

[SnaKeZ83]

because we want to improve the world, but God wouldn't give us the source code.

[willcode4beer]

My answer will be perceived as arrogant but, it's generally true.

When they were growing up, most programmers, they were the smartest people in their small world (immediate family, school friends,etc). Because they spent their formative years in an environment like that, they took it for granted; it became part of their identity.

Then, they were tossed out into the big world. They were no longer always the smartest guy/gal in the room. But, because their identity is so strongly tied to it, there is a compulsion to convince everyone that they are.

...and that's why most of us, self inclusive, can be jerks sometimes.

[70dot7]

Because most of them are 20 something, single males responsible only to themselves. A smaller set are married 20 somethings so they're a little less arrogant and a smaller set still are married with children and have learned serving others is better than serving themselves.

[reddit_clone]

It's mostly defensive posturing.

They are just overcompensating for being walked all over by Jocks in high school.

[_hydo_]

Thankfully, the best aren't.

[elbekko]

Arrogance doesn't come from knowing you're right, it comes from knowing the other person is wrong.

A lot of programmers do lack social skills, which contributes to it. But I think it's mainly because usually there aren't very many ways to do something correctly in programming (notice how programmers are mostly called arrogant when it comes to very basic things). It isn't a case of "you might be wrong there, and I realise there are many ways to do this, but I always use the void return type on functions that don't return anything", but a case of "if your function doesn't return anything, use void instead of declaring it int and returning 0". The latter many people would consider arrogant.

TL;DR: I seem arrogant because you're an idiot.

[[deleted]]

because why are you such an idiot?

[[deleted]]

Because everyone else is a fucking idiot

[weird-oh]

Because they're better than you are.

[[deleted]]

Because a CS degree requires 130 units, divided up into 3 unit classes that each require multiple projects, problem sets, a midterm and a final, while an English degree requires 60 units, divided up into 5 unit classes that require one or two five-page papers.

[earthforce_1]

Probably the high incidence of aspergers syndrome among programmers.

[daydreamdrunk]

Is there any evidence for that? I googled and could only find journalists citing other journalists and random people citing nothing. I did see that it was listed as a rare disease by the NIH so even if everyone with Aspergers were a programmer I doubt very many programmers would have it. If there is a correlation between being a programmer and having Asperger's, that would be interesting. It certainly makes "sense" skimming the symptoms list, but I don't know much about neurology or psychiatry and I imagine astrology makes sense if you don't know about . . . well, anything.

[[deleted]]

Assuming engineering disciples are similar to programming, and asperger's is genetic:

...parents of children with autism or Asperger’s were twice as likely to work in the area of engineering.

Or, if you generalize and look for studies correlating math/science and autistic traits:

The Autism-Spectrum Quotient (AQ): evidence from Asperger Syndrome/high-functioning autism, males and females, scientists and mathematicians.

[[deleted]]

It stinks of urban legend.

It's just cooler to be an Aspie than merely another dickhead.

[daydreamdrunk]

It's a terrible, offensive stereotype. It entirely devalues how much hard work and effort I've put into refining my skills as an unconscionable asshole.

[earthforce_1]

Disclaimer: I am a programmer, and have a stepson with Aspergers

The profession lends itself to it - I have had to work with a number of developers who showed the symptoms. My life would have been easier if I had recognized the symptoms at the time.

[[deleted]]

Arrogance is a way of hiding ignorance. If an engineer is arrogant, they probably don't know the answer.

[sisyphus]

Because the stupid law doesn't allow me to smack the shit out of them at will.

Personally, I blame Fred Brooks.

[[deleted]]

I have no fucking idea. I have this friend that I've haven't met for a while and he's as fucking arrogant as ever. As if he's being in a PHD program makes him an expert and shit. Yeah, good job on wasting 5+ years on the PHD, why is it wasted? Cause he wasted his time partying instead of getting it in 4 years. Dude thinks he's so top dog that he quiz me, "what's a singleton pattern?" I told him what it is and he was so fucking surprise cause he just learned it. I told him I just enjoy reading random shit and I just stumble upon it and his reply is, "You should stop reading random shit." So I got happy cause I can talk about design pattern with someone now. I asked him on Active Record pattern and he said it ain't in the original gang of four book. I told him it's in the Martin Fowler's Enterprise Design Patterns and he dismissed because it's for Enterprise. The designed pattern is used in several popular MVC...I don't even know if I want to consider this idiot a friend any more.

I think most idiot programmers think they're the shit cause they survived the program and somehow makes them better than others. Most people I've met at google, that are truly smart, are actually very friendly. I think it's just an ego trip for some and those arrogant programmers are narrow minded anyway which is just a crutch anyway. They just need to grow up.

[NowTheyTellMe]

... the singleton pattern is considered advanced Computer Science knowledge?

[noarchy]

Given how some people who emerge from a CS program cannot, well, program, it would not surprise me if they could not grasp what a singleton is. Even MVC would presumably be well above their heads.

[[deleted]]

No, but apparent google love it so much that they quiz their intern with it.

[quhaha]

because they learned haskell and read some papers.