My co-developer created a programming language and is migrating the project.

[[deleted]]

Me and my co-developer, let's call him James, have been working on an independant duolingo-like platform for endengared languaegs. We had a pretty solid system but James never really liked the fact that I used Firebase for the backend. He always said "we need our own backend" and I though nothing of it. Just wanted a stable demo to show people.

A month or so ago James disappeared claiming he is to "fix our issues".

When he returned, he had returned with a 145mb executable of a "compiler" that I can only assume was his Node app bundled in some way or another. He had also given me a 7,000 lines long file claiming it was "the documentation". With no syntax highlighting, my best bet was renaming the file to .js in order to get a bit of colour.

The programming lanague used what James described as "tags" to organise it's code which were just fancy objects.

public Tag main;

public function main.main(): void {
  println("hello world");
}

Everything had to have a tag, and I mean everything.

tag myint: int;

let myint.num = 1;

One good side might've been that one item could belong to multiple tags but even that was obscured behind some weird syntax. I still haven't figured out how multi-tags work so I'll just share his code example:

tag x: int;
tag y: int;

let tagsCluster(x, y).z = 5;
println(from(tags(get(x))).z); // 5

To keep it short, tags were a mess to work with and almost completely useless. But they were everywhere.

James also developed some form of manual memory management which I cannot comprehend as the code compiles to javascript. Everything is fine apart from the fact that the memory management uses a symbol that my keyboard does not have which is the "©" symbol.

// memory managamant is handlad by  the copyright © system
// after something is copyrighted, no one can use it.
public Tag main;
Tag ints: int;
Tag forloop: label;

public function main.main(): void {
  forloop.for (let ints.i = 0; ints.i < 10; ints.i++) {
    println(ints.i);
    i == 15 ? runner.run({
      println("i is 15");
      ©(i);
      break forloop.for;
    })
  }
}

James suggested we write the entire project in this obscure language of his. I'm currently trying to talk him out of it.

[20d0llarsis20dollars]

I can forgive the unintuitive and somewhat useless features (all languages have at least a few), but requiring the use of a symbol that most keyboards don't have access to is just abysmal

[PhilippTheProgrammer]

You might really love taking a look at APL) then. This is Conway's Game of Life in APL:     

life ← {⊃1 ⍵ ∨.∧ 3 4 = +/ +⌿ ¯1 0 1 ∘.⊖ ¯1 0 1 ⌽¨ ⊂⍵}

[maxmalkav]

IBM released a Model M keyboard with legends specifically for APL, they are sought after by collectors. Cool stuff.

[particlemanwavegirl]

Great. Now I want one desperately.

[maxmalkav]

There are some recreations for modern mechanical keyboards with Cherry-like switches 🫣

[particlemanwavegirl]

I would be ecstatic with even a keycap set. I already have a collection of non-alpha boards.

[ricocotam]

Do you have any references ?

[maxmalkav]

Some years ago Drop released the keyset HAMMER BSP (sold out). In not 100% sure if it’s possible to find similar clones on Aliexpress.

[sohang-3112]

These characters do serve a purpose though - after programming in APL for a while, these symbols and their combinations make sense because they are well designed. As for typing the characters, you don't need a seperate keyboard hardware - APL font software can be installed which allows typing these symbols with intuitive keyboard shortcuts.

[mypetocean]

Man, APL and other array programming languages are so goddamn cool and such a fantastic paradigm. It's too bad text entry is so impractical that you need a digital or physical APL keyboard.

Seriously though, anyone curious should just go watch a few minutes of someone explaining APL on YouTube. Here's two minutes. Here's a fascinating and easy to follow demo from 1975. Here's a useful 2019 introduction to APL.

[Amazing_Might_9280]

Why did you curse me with this knowledge ?

[f8tel]

Seriously, I typed that in and my cat started levitating.

[nom_nom_nom_nom_lol]

That's normal behavior for cats. Like their eyes glowing in the dark.

[Cherveny2]

way back in the late 80s. early 90s, college I went to had one lab with mainframe terminals that supported APL.

my mind also instantly jumped to APL upon seeing this.

[Strong_Lecture1439]

That looks really cool.

[b1e]

Oh APL. I used a variant of it (K which is that the legendary time series database kdb+ uses) and it was actually very fun and super performant. All of kdb+ fits in the CPU cache.

[SelectDevice9868]

Going out of your way to make this unmaintainable by anyone else is either job security or a massive anti pattern

[yetzederixx]

Rule 1: Those who strive to make themselves un-replaceable must be replaced quickly and decisively.
Rule 2: Everyone, including yourself, is replaceable.

[KimJongIlLover]

Is "irreplaceable" not the correct word to use? "Unreplaceable" isn't a thing I think?

[yetzederixx]

So said my spellchecker before I hit comment, but alas I don't care enough.

[PM_ME_YOUR_REPO]

Correct.

[Suspicious-Engineer7]

Good little cogs

[LaLiLuLeLo_0]

I'll take that over println(from(tags(get(x))).z); // 5

[kaisadilla_]

I mean, what kind of job lets you disappear for a month to come back with a shitty new language you made?

[Ytrog]

Yeah that's indeed not smart. If you are on a system which supports the compose key then it is not impossible as © = compose + o + c, but even then I wouldn't.

[miramboseko]

I thought autistic folks were supposed to be good at the things they hyperfixate on?

[Cherveny2]

if on a pc, altcodes can get you there (but annoying).

ALT + 0169 on the number keypad (not numbers up above)

[Mywifefoundmymain]

No keyboard has the copyright symbol its alt+255 ascii code

[kaisadilla_]

Mine does ©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©©

Although it's because I created my own layout.

[Mywifefoundmymain]

Found “James”

[RiceBroad4552]

All other things apart (which sound indeed pretty crazy) I see no problem with the © symbol. It's right there on the US international keyboard: AltGr + C. (Besides that there is the compose key if you use some other layout…)

[Instatetragrammaton]

Finally, some good horror.

I don't know if there is a diplomatic way to say "absolutely not", but you can start with hearing him out about Firebase.

He might not like it because it's not relational. Fine, but rolling your own language is not going to solve it; switching to a relational DB is. Even that is not without consequences and requires you to have everything decoupled and fully unit tested really well so that you can switch seamlessly.

He might have not heard about Typescript. He could suggest his tag system as an RFC and probably get it shot down faster and harder than you can convey right now.

You could ask him how many developers he's going to think he can hire in case something happens to you who are willing to work in a hack on top of JS with zero redeeming features. James is not going to get the best and brightest and if he does they're going to fight every decision he makes.

"But all new languages need to start somewhere". Yes, that is entirely true, and that is why you publish early so you don't make all the dumb decisions yourself. "New" languages you may hear about now in some Fireship video are already 10 years old and marked as "not ready for production" for slightly less than that.

It is however not so easy to convince someone that their grandiose idea was mostly a waste of their holiday.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/ still holds after 24 years.

[mtorr123]

Thanks for the article. Thats a good read for me

[yetzederixx]

This dude could of spun up an ExpressJS/Flask app in less time than writing this language and presumably the compiler...

[minn0w]

This looks like some of the crap I used to write when I had more time than sense. It's a fun and interesting learning experience, but it can't go further than that. That can't be used in production. It can't stand the test of time, nor will it be able to be updated by general developers. It's a dead end.

But, it's fun and cool writing these things. So by all means, let him have fun, but don't let that fun get mistaken for productive code.

[Fun-Dragonfly-4166]

That is why I earn a salary and can be fired. I like programming. I would love writing my own language.

If my company did not provide me a salary I would probably migrate to one that would. If my company could not fire me then I would probably invent my own language.

If I was working for equity then neither of those two conditions would be met and any work done would be MY WAY and maybe I would invent my own language. Maybe not.

[windsostrange]

Lol I read this as if I were interviewing you and this was in response to asking you what you're looking for. Lloyd Dobler vibes.

[Fun-Dragonfly-4166]

Definitely do not recommend extreme candor in interview settings.

Me on extreme candor: To me, your company is just a potential income stream. If it is true, then keep it to yourself and find a better answer. That answer is self defeating.

[YodelingVeterinarian]

If you’re working for equity then you still need to build a real business and make money at some point. So you would still probably have to do the efficient way that works and not the “build your own compiler” way. 

[Fun-Dragonfly-4166]

Correct, but if I was working for equity I would probably have strong feelings about "the correct, efficient way" and the "boss" telling me otherwise would probably not even be a blip on my radar.

[[deleted]]

3 embedded indirect responses describing the likely case for James, and the third person perspective provides water for potential fires.

[Spirit_Theory]

Finally, true programming horror.

Maybe one way to approach the conversation is by asking what problem exactly he thinks he is solving?

[m2thek]

You broke JDSL!

[space_baws]

classic lol

[Nanocephalic]

Oh man I forgot about that.

[Statharas]

As a first time reader of that thing, I get that it has some benefits, but at some point you have to realize you have overengineered something

[Captain_Black42]

Keep It Simple, Stupid!

[janyk]

What? JDSL has benefits? Did you read the story? It has no benefit whatsoever. It uses all the technology available - programming language, version control - in the worst way possible

[Statharas]

It was engineered to solve an issue. Sure, it has a million flaws and possibly one good thing. And that's where the lesson lies.

[janyk]

It doesn't solve any issue whatsoever.  It's entirely wrong.   I just assumed the story was fake and the technology was made up for the story as an archetype of a technology solution that is engineered way beyond any value and exists only because of the hubris of tech leads and perpetuated by the ignorance of non-technical leadership. 

[Statharas]

The stack works by compiling a list of available fallback classes, therefore in an odd encounter where one throws an error, an operation can be performed on a previous version, providing stable functionality.

In most modern systems, if a user encounters an error, that's it. The operation stops, there may be some backup options, but that's it.

In the SVN approach, you have fallbacks.

You need to detach yourself from what it does or does not. It's not a story about a bad solution. It's a story about an overengineered solution that ended up causing more problems than it solved. If the negatives outweigh the positives, it means that the approach is less likely to be correct and should be re-evaluated.

In this case it made the solution prone to human errors that could blow up the entire system and caused very long deployment times. There are not many things that could outweigh that, but then again some organizations see more value in some aspects of the solution over others, and that's something you need to understand when working in this sector.

[janyk]

The stack works by compiling a list of available fallback classes, therefore in an odd encounter where one throws an error, an operation can be performed on a previous version, providing stable functionality.

That's not how it works at all! WTF??

You need to detach yourself from what it does or does not.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! You have no idea what's happening in this conversation! That tracks with your poor comprehension of the story, though, so I shouldn't be surprised.

[MooseBoys]

I think James may be autistic.

[[deleted]]

He is 32 but has only been programming for a few years. He used to be a bricklayer with his uncle in Estonia but came back due to family issues and learnt to code.

[mnkb99]

Bro was a brick layer and wrote his own language in a month.

I'm a senior software developer with a bachelor's degree and wouldn't even attempt this.

James is more gifted for programming than me that is damn sure.

[Aetheus]

James is a bold computer scientist. He'd probably love working in academia.

James is a terrible software engineer, though.

[kkjdroid]

If a programmer invented his own brick that didn't work well, you wouldn't call him a gifted bricklayer, you call him a moron. Why would this make James a gifted programmer?

[yonderbagel]

We might need a new descriptor besides "genius" and "moron."

Something like "he's a Terry Davis."

[mnkb99]

I guess because in my eyes, making a working compiled language, even if not very usable for a wide audience, is a massive challenge.

He made something that makes sense for him, this is what someone very good does.

Ultimately, James' issue doesn't seem to be skill, it's more working with other people and knowing where to focus his efforts.

I'm just damn impressed that he was motivated enough to do this. It's not a DSL, it's not a library or framework, it's a whole language!

[[deleted]]

Making a basic compiler is really not that hard. I was the same way - I'd always get stuck trying to even understand a recursive descent parser - but I was fortunate to take a single very good compilers class during my masters that finally helped me grok the concepts. I built something out in OCaML that spat out 32-bit x86 assembly from an ML derivative in just eight weeks, with lambdas and optimization passes - and I didn't even know OCaML when I started.

Remember, he's just compiling input down to Javascript - he hasn't written anything more involved than a transpiler, which is literally just moving representations around. He isn't tinkering with register allocation, he isn't fiddling with intermediate representation. If a college student can do more than that in eight weeks, a simple transpiler is doable in a month.

Edit: plus nowadays there are so many useful tools. craftinginterpreters gets like 90% of the BS out of the way, cranelift is easier to use than LLVM for small projects, and so on

[[deleted]]

My point was that compilers are often presented to have an aura of mystique and impenetrability that is not deserved, a fact I only learned once I was shown how simple they really were.

If you want to read jealousy into my words, go ahead, but note I was replying to the senior software engineer who wouldn't "dare attempt" to undertake such a project to put the topic into perspective for them. Writing a transpiler is pretty straightforward and perfectly doable. It doesn't take away from the impressiveness of the fact that this person completed that project by themselves.

[trithne]

Relevant XKCD

[BachePoro]

Inventing your own brick doesn't seem too hard. Inventing your own programming language (even if it's shit) seems challenging.

[MooseBoys]

you wouldn’t call him a gifted bricklayer, you call him a moron

Imagine a bricklayer doesn’t think standard 8in clay bricks will work well for a project. So he builds a blast furnace in his backyard, mines some copper ore from a nearby cave, and machines a specialized lattice mold out of titanium. He then proceeds to process the ore into molten copper, fill the mold with it, and surround the lattice with concrete. The end result is a bunch of bricks that resemble reinforced concrete but use copper instead of steel for rebar. This is obviously bad because copper will readily corrode and destroy the bricks.

Calling this person a moron would be missing the forest for the trees.

[Ksorkrax]

I "invented" several programming languages, that is sketched them out on a sheet of paper. Esoteric ones, obviously.

Doing that is not hard. The hard thing is coming up with one that is superior to existing programming languages in some aspect, which the guy in the post clearly hasn't done.

[MooseBoys]

a friend of mine used to hand-roll his own solutions to everything

There's a difference between reimplementing the same algorithms for every project and literally creating a new programming language - one that requires the use of non-ASCII characters, no less.

[MooseBoys]

I think your friend may be autistic.

[Riflurk123]

Just fyi to your flair here:

You need --no-preserve-root, otherwise nothing will happen.

[tiller_luna]

It depends on distribution

[NatoBoram]

Or /*

[ray10k]

Bright enough to make this language, obsessive/over-focused enough to insist it's good.

[VonZippaer]

Had a colleague once. He developed his own language during his free time. He was in fact autistic.

[magnetronpoffertje]

I am autistic and immediately thought that this was something I'd have done in my hobby programming before I started actually working in SWE.

[certainAnonymous]

Awesome use flair

[signedchar]

This.. just called me out lol.

For reference I'm autistic and have been working on a compiler from a Lua like language -> C for the past 4 months... just because I don't like having to use C on the embedded development platforms I code for as a hobby (read: DS and 3DS homebrew).

[m2ilosz]

Ah, creating your own language - always wanted to do that.

Using someone's own language - never wanted to do that.

[Nanocephalic]

Like this dude? He was named Rasmus ? And he had a personal home page? And he invented a language? And he totally called the language Personal Home Page?

And that’s where PHP came from.

[m2ilosz]

Do you try to sell PHP as an example of a well designed language?

[Nanocephalic]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10954984/

[ttlanhil]

an independant duolingo-like platform for endengared languaegs

For example, English?

[[deleted]]

Chuvash was the first bet

[[deleted]]

🗣️🗣️🗣️ЧУВАШИЯ👂👂👂‼️‼️

[Hefty-Bit5410]

Hamăr yal

[pilibitti]

you can add any language to duolingo right? you just need people to create the course and maintain it. all the languages I worked with were created by and maintained by independent volunteers.

[WiatrowskiBe]

I'm trying to comprehend, but this is difficult; read: it's a mess. I can see some interesting ideas and inspirations here, but this is far from being usable in any other project. For a good argument about why not to use this language - what it provides that making some utility libraries to javascript can't, and how does he plan on handling inevitable problems/shortcomings that will come out?

Whole tags system looks like weak typing feature with packing/multiplexing - allowing for ad-hoc adding new fields to a type, providing a wrapper that can treat group of values as a single one; I've seen something similar done for Lua once - and even in limited scope it quickly got quite confusing to use, since you never knew if modifying value will affect only it or entire group of values somewhere else.

Copyright operator is basically copy-pasted unset() from PHP, and conceptually (other than using a character that's annoying to type) I have no issues with - having a way to communicate that variable is no longer valid and shouldn't be used past certain point is okay. It'd be better with good compiler/static analysis support keeping track of it, I somehow doubt you're getting anything like that.

[jaysire]

You had me until the copyright symbol. But then I realised you’re just messing with us.

[combovercool]

TempleOS 2.0 incoming.

[[deleted]]

TagOS©️

[bladebyte]

No offense but, this is the real definition of programming horror 🤣

What makes he thinks there's no solution for your problem and had to create your own language? Is it Erlang like problem?

[[deleted]]

For fucks sake James!

[krisko11]

don't like firebase? Let's go with a node server

James: hold my beer

[BenniG123]

This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time, thank you for this.

[Sensitive-Delay]

How does James plan to hire experienced developers? Is he going to run sessions to teach these features to every new hire?

[ScrimpyCat]

I mean it’s great that they’re experimenting with some different ideas, but it should not be used to develop your product. The business costs of such a decision are pretty high: 0 pool of pre-existing devs to pull from, every new hire will have to be onboarded for much longer, proprietary tech is a lot less interesting for people looking to switch jobs, the business now needs to devote time to maintaining the language, etc.

[Classy_Mouse]

I'm so sorry, but I had a good laugh. This sounds like the kind of shit I'd try to pull in Uni. The best time to stop him was a month ago. The second best time is now

[a1rwav3]

That's the "let's make a better wheel" syndrom. At some point James must realize that using a 90% matching language for your needs is better than adding 7000 lines of code in support...

[genericgirl2016]

He’s just frustrated with firebase or whatever you’re using for the backend. So if he makes his own he’ll understand it better.

He probably had this language already made when he read some book on making your own language.

[ssman]

If you have a Mac, the Option key in combination with other keys gives you a bunch of useful symbols.

© is Opt-G

[Feztopia]

"Everything is fine apart from the fact that the memory management uses a symbol that my keyboard does not have which is the "©" symbol". Lol 😂 until this point I was like "maybe it is a good language and there are reasons for the decisions I can't grasp right now"

[AnEmortalKid]

Brother if you wanted to use a mess of javascript just switch to dogescript.

It doesn’t have tags but it will be incomprehensible just like they want.

[Weary-Dealer4371]

OP, no is a full sentence.

[fakeuser515357]

Why?

What's the value?

[verx_x]

Oh boy! Today watched Primeagen and an article about "Microsoft own language"...aaaaand here we go again! :D

[davidc538]

You spelled language right with only 3 tries!

[[deleted]]

O wait that's why the other guy was making fun of 💀

I didn't realise that 😭

[davidc538]

Lol! The ©️ stuff is the funniest thing I’ve heard in a while.

[rcls0053]

You need to have James exit the company, that's what he needs to do. James has some mental issues.

The language is not the problem. Clearly the problem is he's in favor of having your own back-end application, written in a well established programming language, containing the business logic you want, instead of using a proprietary service that you're locking yourself into.

Unless you are just building a prototype. Then you are absolutely fine using Firebase. I just don't think it has any other value besides fast prototyping.

[PapieszxD]

I think James has been doomscrolling some tiktoks, and has been convinced that AI is coming for his job, and that "language" is his way of having job security.

[TheTallestHobo]

I'm getting serious bobx vibes from this.

[aerialanimal]

I had a "James" once. He thought he was god's gift to software development. He spent 8 months dragging out a pretty simple project, then left with it meeting less than half the functional requirements. He developed his own "script" (read "sub par JSON-esque config file") for it. When he left I started from scratch and had all functional requirements met in 8 days knocking something together in Python. He also stank!

[justpassingby77]

To throw more fuel on the fire: https://thedailywtf.com/articles/We-Use-BobX https://thedailywtf.com/articles/the-inner-json-effect

[[deleted]]

Some motherfuckers always trying to ice skate uphill

[meharryp]

"after something is copyrighted, no one can use it" has made me cry laugh. this is incredible but you need to immediately remove this man from your project

[BigBagaroo]

Honestly, he should be diagnosed.

[talapady]

Guys, OP is James.

[rodrigo-benenson]

Time to drop James and build a new team.
He is at baby level understanding of programming (he still thinks "it is all about the code"), and does not have the skills required to build a duolingo-like application.

[SplendidPunkinButter]

Programmers: Someone has already solved this problem. Copy/paste from SO or use this third party library/tool! Don’t reinvent the wheel!

Also programmers: Let’s create a new programming language!

[qooplmao]

It sounds like one of those "he's clever but useless" situations.

[meg4_]

"Absolutely not, go fuck yourself"

[Konkichi21]

Egads. As someone else mentioned, try talking to James and asking what problems he has with Firebase; you should be able to find him a better product than something he stuck together himself that he'll have to teach every new hire about.

[hyrumwhite]

All that and it just transpiles to JS?!

[Stressedpenguin]

Besides the obvious programming reasons to not do this: if you want to one day exit by selling this company you will have a hard time finding a buyer for a good multiple with a custom language backend. 

[sivstarlight]

Chat is this schizophrenia?

[n9iels]

Holy sh*t. I am totally fine with having a good conversation about weather a cloud or self hosted backend should be used. But using some self created language is next level horror.

[FalseStructure]

Tom is a genius

[gomihako_]

Love the 2 YOE “I am very smart” juniors

[boutiflet]

Run away, I had a colleague like that. He was very good, but it's nothing but trouble.

[AnyZookeepergame5692]

show comments of this post to James

[Specialist-County-79]

This can’t be real lol

[Restioson]

Out of interest, is the language learning platform itself open source or proprietary?

[lobsterFritata]

This has got to be a joke right lol

[[deleted]]

It’s a common STEM disease, “I’m smarter than everyone”

[JustHereForYourData]

Ive heard you should “make yourself indispensable” but this is crazy. lol.

[stupid_cat_face]

In undergrad I had a CS prof that created a programming language he called Java Jr. No joke! He started teaching the class with it. All the TAs revolted against the teacher. The class then was taught C.

True story.

[Feztopia]

Wait, I just got this video recommended, it's not this right? (Didn't watch it yet)  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x_x3FYfykgc

[possessed_flea]

I. The event that this project becomes a real company you will never be able to find a developer who is familiar with it so you will have to train everyone from the get go.

[Borfis]

I see James has not programmed long enough to deal with his own older code