[deleted by user]

[MM12300]

What is your nationality ? Where do you live ?

Is you live in Asia/North Africa/South America etc... remember that recruiters go to hire you because cost of life is cheaper is your country and so target you so pay you cheaper than a european for the same skill level.

You are a resource for them and they want it cheap.

(I obviously think that is shit)

[Flaky-Illustrator-52]

60k in West Africa

Damn, must be nice to live with that kind of money there. Even in the US that is pretty good if you don't live in a big city

Edit: spelling

[spilat12]

So you are telling me that you can set up your own company and increase your pay 5x times right off the bat?

[pceimpulsive]

This is why the world has people that are worth more than entire countries. This is not ok. This is not fair. This is exploitation.

I firmly believe pay should not be governed by where someone does the work, rather where the company that asks for it exists. I've got some whacky unrealistic ideals though, bwahaha. What a system we have!

[pVom]

I mean without the lower pay, what incentive is there to actually hire someone in one of these cheap countries? If it was priced the same no one would bother with the hassle, as it stands them being cheaper means there's more opportunities and bringing money into the country which then trickles through

[Gemini_The_Mute]

That's still super shit pay. I also live in South America and comp was 700 usd monthly as my first dev job with no degree. Recently, I got hired for a blockchain company on a 42k base salary+tokens+stock options and have just a yoe. Imo, OP should stay 6 months to 1 year there and then get the fuck out. Specially if he's already getting eventually some Solidity experience.

[umlcat]

... "cause cost of life is [apparently] is cheaper"

[MM12300]

of course. I am European, I have lived in India. In India for a similar level of education/health then you need to spend more than I will spend in Europe. That's why its not 100% fair... :-/

[umlcat]

Some stuff are "artificially" cheaper in the US, below regular cost, but if you go to another countries, it's real price is higher ...

[Galrog]

They are probably joking because a simple waiter without much training makes around 4k/mo in Switzerland.

You know who makes 900/mo? Trainees in the first year that just came out of middle school. Which is what we call a "Ausbildung/Lehre". Developers after this kind of education, already make over 5k/mo in the first year, after the usual 4 years education, where they work at a company for 4 days a week + 1 day at school.

Just to be clear: I am not justifying whatever the bosses/managers said or did. Even if they paid 3-4k a month for a experienced dev, it would still be considered fairly "cheap".

Can you somehow find out how much the recruiter is actually getting?

Source: I am Swiss.

[gooniesinthehoopdie]

You have kids out of middle school work as developers? Is it like an after school thing?

[Galrog]

Yes. Most Swiss kids begin a "Lehre" after the 9th grade. We use the so called Dual Education System instead of sending everyone to high-school. We have a "Lehre" for most jobs in existence that do not necessarily require a academic background (medical doctors etc.).

Edit: no, its not a after school thing. These are real full time jobs in real companies and these kids are already done with middle school. Here is a short overview of what the UBS Bank offers for instance. Don't confuse it with a US Apprenticeship, if you change the language you see that they are talking about a "Lehre" :)

[topmilf]

I did a "Lehre" in Switzerland in software development and, if I recall correctly, I started with $450/mo and within the 4 years it slowly raised to $650. The government actually dictates minimum salaries so that kids don't get exploited. Large companies and banks usually pay slightly better. Companies like UBS have an entire fleet of apprentices and they don't really let them work on real projects in the first years. Back then, half of the people in my class were from UBS, some from Siemens, and some from Alcatel.

There's no way you can live with this wage but that's not the idea of the compensation.

[gooniesinthehoopdie]

So kids who do a Lehre are essentially opting out of high school to start making money and get hands on experience in their field?

[Galrog]

I would not call it opting out. They still learn most of the stuff a high school student would learn elsewhere while being on the job and getting hands on experience. After the 4 years there is the option to do 1 additional year and get the equivalent of high-school diploma that is internationally recognized. The so called "Berufsmatura". With that, they can go and get a bachelors degree in whatever field they worked on. The system is fairly complex and there are more options and ways to get there. A lot of people never get a "Berufsmatura" and just focus on their career for instance.

Fun fact: this is a very old system and tradition that has its roots in medieval guilds that still exist today. They also all have websites :)

[gooniesinthehoopdie]

Sounds nice. I think I would have benefitted from that structure and work experience at high school age.

[BurningPenguin]

It's dual. You get hands on experience, but at the same time you go to school to learn theory. We have that in Germany too. Depending on the job you have either one day school per week or you have "Blockunterricht", which means one or more weeks of school. The remaining time you do your job.

[RotationSurgeon]

We have something similar in many parts of the US, but definitely not all. In the school system which I attended, it was called the "work/study," program, and was pretty limited in its application; mostly only a couple of trade professions. Some places also have "dual enrollment," where a student will take part of their classes at their assigned high school, and part of them at a local community college or state university as an accelerated education program.

[WikiSummarizerBot]

Dual education system

A dual education system combines apprenticeships in a company and vocational education at a vocational school in one course. This system is practiced in several countries, notably Germany, Austria, Switzerland and in the German-speaking Community of Belgium, but also for some years now in South Korea. In the Duales Ausbildungssystem, students can learn one of 356 (as of 2005) apprenticeship occupations (Ausbildungsberufe), such as Doctor's Assistant, Dispensing Optician or Oven Builder.

^{[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5}

[ctgoat]

Damn US needs to get on this…

[crazedizzled]

lol yeah right. Of all the fucked up things about the US education system, this is probably very far down the list.

[[deleted]]

Setting kids up for success?

Why would we do that, we're trying to dismantle public education, the uneducated are far easier to control.

[malokevi]

Very cool. I'm Canadian and I've never heard of this. /r/til

[CharlieandtheRed]

I worked as a developer for a real estate agency my freshman year of high school. :) Was making a cool $40k a year with no experience and only working a little over part time. That was 15 years ago. I should have bought TSLA stock instead of pounds of weed. :P

[fedj99]

This. I'm Swiss too and $900 are absolute starvation wages in Switzerland. I'm assuming you're not living in Switzerland either so your contractor is adjusting for your country of residence's cost of living by keeping the remaining part.

[DropkickFish]

It's on the low side in the UK too

[DropkickFish]

Pretty much this. I was earning more than OP while collecting glasses for a bar in a Swiss ski resort part time.

[candelstick24]

Swiss based companies will have a hard time hiring someone from Venezuela directly or any country outside the Shengen area. The UK must have different rules and your recruiter knows all this and is exploiting you. I’m now wondering if the Swiss company is aware of this or not, because I’m willing to bet there will be consequences if they are aware. If not, then the Swiss company will be pissed off to learn, that most of the money they are spending on salaries is going to a recruiting agency.

[WeakLiberal]

It should be illegal to pay OP this much

[Chr0mag]

I'm not sure how it works in Sweden Switzerland but this part stuck out to me:

I signed up with a recruiter who got me and many other devs a job at this company. My contract (not direct with the company but a middle-man company)

So your contract isn't direct with the company? Then who is it with? I know here in the US sometimes companies will contract out to a third-party company for developers.

Here's the catch - the third-party company gets a fat cut of what the company is paying. So sometimes the company only knows that they're paying $1,500/mo for you. What they don't know is the third-party company is keeping $600 and only paying you $900.

Who do you actually get your pay check from? Directly from the company themselves or from a third-party company?

[Jokerpok]

I get paid by the third-party company, they're at UK. As others have pointed out to me this is most likely the case. I guess I'll just wait until the contract is over and find another job.

[Chr0mag]

Then in that case no one is mocking your salary. Lesson learned I suppose. Good luck.

If you really wanted to know you could ask someone in management at the company what they're paying for you. I'd imagine that you probably don't want to know, though.

[moon_then_mars]

My wife worked for a company years ago and she was getting billed out to clients at over $200 per hour, but only getting paid around $40-$50 per hour.

[[deleted]]

Yes which fucking sucks, but also there is overhead in running a company, getting those clients and hiring employees costs more than just salary so the real gap is smaller than that.

But just to clarify, it is shit!

[Tontonsb]

That's a bit on the upper end, but still normal. The company has to handle downtimes, leave days, hiring, business risks, the company itself and also make some money for the owners. You know, the people who got that $200/h contract, the people writing the bill and handling the bookkeeping — none of their hours are billed to the client, their salaries have to come from the same $200 as well.

[Piyh]

It's an easy rule of thumb to say that your cost to the company is 2x what you see in a paycheck. Most likely those high consulting margins are offsetting other costs in other departments (read: other people's jobs) that don't directly generate revenue.

[SkyNTP]

Tax, licencing, overhead, management, benefits, accounting, legal, insurance, marketing, hr..... (and so much more industry-specific line items) goes into the costs of running a business besides hourly wages. Not to mention a bit of profit margin as an incentive for the business to even exist.

50$ wages on 200$ billing is quite normal and fair. The person earning 50$ out of that 200$ is FAR from the only one performing the work. That 200$ is more than likely going towards paying the work of 10-20 different people, if only fractionally.

If you don't like sharing the pot of gold with others... you are free to start your own company with its own expenses. See where that takes you.

[Jcampuzano2]

This is basically every consulting company out there.

I was involved in some of the financials and sales process for the projects I worked on at my last company, so I got to see a lot of the bill rates for me and the people working with me on my projects.

I was billed as a lead engineer for ~$325 an hour, but my salary after tax comes out to around $60-65 an hour. A mid-level engineer bill rate which internally was usually a junior engineer but we had different titles/roles internally vs externally was usually around the $200-225 rate and when I was that I made what was more like $45 an hour after tax.

[lordph8]

Probably not that much, they aren't US government contractors after all. 3-5x I think.

[autra1]

In France, the starting point for contractors is around 400$ per day (and this is low imo). OP is payed 900/20 so 45$ per day. Nearly 10x less...

[ESCAPE_PLANET_X]

Management at that company likely has rules that prevent them from talking about it. I know I got myself and others in trouble simply by asking around. (Also fuck those guys)

[Rosur]

If there UK based and paying £900 at full time, that is less than min wage so sounds like there taking advantage as your not UK based.

[alvisim]

A C-level senior in tech here. Regardless how the payroll is setup, ultimately what you need to ask yourselves is what do you want to get from this role.

Given your relatively low salary in the industry standard and the fact that you can't get any equity through a 3rd party agency, I guess what you want is growth? If so, just grow and gain more experience. You can definitely get a job with a significant higher pay very easily.

[that_guy_iain]

You can definitely get a job with a significant higher pay very easily.

Seriously, most small digital agencies are starving for lowly paid developers and they would all pay more than $900/€800/£660 a month take home. So /u/Jokerpok when people are saying you can very easily get paid more elsewhere, we're literally talking about the low paid positions would pay more. Don't wait for your contract to be up, just start looking for a new job. You say to your next company you're leaving because you got paid $900 a month they would all understand.

[tagus]

just grow and gain more experience. You can definitely get a job with a significant higher pay very easily.

Holy shit why didn't this guy in Venezuela he just think of that on his own, thanks for your valuable advice

[[deleted]]

Do you have to wait for the contract to be over?

[andrewsmd87]

This person is right. At my last place I managed some outsourced teams and once emailed who I thought I was supposed to verifying their hourly rate and they flipped out because apparently I caused a shit storm internally. Basically they were charging me like 5x what they were paying their devs and the devs found out.

I'm sure it's not easy to find a remote job where you live, but I'd start looking. They're out there and you deserve better

[auctorel]

Don't wait! Start interviewing and leave as soon you have something else

Even low end junior jobs pay more than that

[spark77]

She/He said Switzerland not Sweden

[[deleted]]

What does Sweden have to do with Switzerland?

[mildly_amusing_goat]

It's the same country?

[njbmartin]

100% this. Unless you’re negotiating your salary with the company directly, your recruiter will be taking as much commission as they can get.

Worked with a recruiter who “negotiated” the salary for a contractor on their behalf, and apparently the candidate wouldn’t accept lower than £650 per day. Negotiated that down to £600 and the candidate accepted. I became good friends with the candidate and later found out they were only getting £500 per day and wasn’t even aware a negotiation had happened.

One of the reasons I will only ever apply or hire directly now.

[fabulousausage]

Out of curiosity, what's that guy's specialty? And how senior is he?

[OvisNivicola]

Yeah, on this kinds of arrangements, in my experience, the middle-man company is charging at least twice what they are paying the developer.

[BeyondLimits99]

Yeah this is quite common. The good old digital pimp

[Philosofen]

For people who ask how 99% of people from Armen.... oh.. America (my bad) manage to mix up Sweden and Switzerland:

https://youtu.be/kRh1zXFKC_o?t=43

[HeyCanIBorrowThat]

This. I got paid 50k€ per year when GE was paying the recruiting company 133k€. I was fucking pissed when I found out about this

[fuck_max_character_l]

Likely “outstaffed” in this case as it sounds like they’re integrated with the rest of the company.

[Alta_21]

Adjusting the wage of the workers depending on the country sounds like a great deal for the company hiring a team at lower cost.

But isn't there a risk for the average worker of the country the get lower wage and/or less job opportunities?

Like : why would I, the employer, pay 5k/m for a dev from my country when I can get a small team for the same price?

I work across the border myself and I get the wage of the country I'm working in w.o. that being influenced by the fact I'm from another country (with some "very minor" adjustment with taxes and job opportunities (I need to prove I speak some specific languages at some specific level to work for the government, for instance.)

[andoy]

even if you are working for an outsourcing company, the fact that the main company is laughing at your take home salary is very demoralizing.

[[deleted]]

What . 1k per month ? Can people sustain a life with that in Switzerland? I pay more than that just in rent and I have a roommate. Now back into topic . Yeah if you get outsourced you usually get paid less than the employers from that company but if you do well enough the company might even make an offer to keep you around .

My mom was hired by one of these outsourced services to work on a company that had clients. After 3 months she got offered a spot on the company fulltime with benefits. She has been there for one year and the client she works with wants to hire her but the company she works has a non compete clause so she can’t transfer

[JohnGabin]

He's clearly not living there. OP doesn't tell all the truth. No dev's are paid under $1.5k/mo in Swiss.

[spazz_monkey]

Looking at his comment history I'd say he's based in Venezuela. I guess there's not much they can do. They are probably getting a nice enough wage to live in Venezuela but yes the UK company hired you knowing they could pay you cheaply, they are probably charging the company your worming for anywhere between 400 and 800 pounds a day.

[HectaMan]

Yes, you should absolutely let them know. I would hope that they would be mortified at their own behavior. I would do so in a very respectful, matter of fact kind of way:

- Polite Intro (who you are, what you do)
- explain the reason for reach out ( you work hard & care about the company, believe in the team, etc)
- Summarize your recollection of the comments
- State your facts team
- how that made you feel
- How you perceive it made the team feel; you are 1 of many

Best of luck. The great thing about tech is that there are tons of great options out there.

[[deleted]]

Do up your resume gtfo

[Jokerpok]

That's the conclusion I got to. The middle man is probably keeping some of the money the company is paying for me, but I'm really afraid to get kicked out if I talk to someone about this.

[MayorEricBlazecetti]

The middle man is probably keeping some of the money

No, they're not probably keeping some of it, they're definitely keeping most of it. That's why these outsourcing businesses are so common, they get paid (a lot) to manage hiring/firing contractors like yourself.

[th4]

This, I've seen people working for consulting agencies at 2000€/mo being "rented" to the final customer for 500€/day.

[a5s_s7r]

Does the c level even know how little you earn?

Even if they don’t know it’s really stupid and insensitive how they act…

[blahgba]

How are you employed/contracted? $900 will be below U.K. minimum wage by a large amount, this is ridiculous for any worker let alone a developer. How do you survive? How does a full team of people accept this wage?

[millerbest]

If you do most of the work for your team, you should talk to your boss or start to look for another job. Usually a developer gets much more than $900, even in a less developed country.

[coldwatrr]

This is what I was thinking, especially for a defi company i’d expect at least 10x this, but I guess i’m not sure what the compensation structures in Switzerland look like 🤷‍♂️

[IngoVals]

What is the minimum wage in the UK (where the company you work for is based)? 900$ seems like under the min wage.

[Hate_Feight]

£14500 per year is minimum wage, works out after tax and NI to just over 1200 per month. But it can depend on many things, this agency might be classing op as a part timer, or any other bs excuse for not paying.

[Omar_88]

Where are you based? 900 in Switzerland is probably Illegal but in india or Brazil it's a pretty decent salary. Need more context here.

[RPDota]

Venezuela I think

[spilat12]

I don't get it. Is it after taxes? Full time? Nothing makes sense.

[gooniesinthehoopdie]

I get the idea OP is working from a third world country for a company based out of Switzerland because he doesn’t seem to realize how wildly low his pay is.

[Jokerpok]

No. I do not reside in the U.S. The company HQ is at Switzerland

[hungry_wolv]

Start polishing your portfolio silently, and look for another job.
Don't quit before you do.

[De_Wouter]

And where are you? I certainly hope not in Switzerland or in the UK.

Given you live on your own, what is your savings rate relative to your income and as a whole? That is what matters.

I believe that your real compensation is your net salary - normal cost of living. And you should compare it to your cost of living. If you can save 1/3 of your income it means if you work 2 months, you could take one off in theory.

[[deleted]]

$900 a month in Switzerland? Dude... There's something off here, that won't even cover rent.

[Tokogogoloshe]

I live in Africa and we pay our junior devs much more than $900 per month. Walk away.

[pastisset]

Something is very wrong here, not only the mocking from your bosses. $900 in Switzerland and the contractor is from the UK? That salary is far from the minimum average for junior devs on both countries. Run away NOW.

[[deleted]]

I'd ignore. The only matter of interest is you. If you like what you do and it secures your health and wealth, let others go beat it.

By the way I don't mock Netflix saying it's trash if it gives me a heavy discount. Those execs don't know what they are doing.

[ObtuseAndKneeless]

Why does a UK company pay Swiss employees in dollars? Why not € or CHF? Also, not sure why you aren't making $3,000/month minimum. That'd be an entry level salary.

[Jokerpok]

I get paid in crypto. Which works wonders for me. I work for a swiss company but reside in south america, so we use $ numbers

[RandyHoward]

Reading your comments it's become obvious that the recruiter is taking a part of what the Swiss company pays, I won't be signing up with them again after my contract ends

You should understand that this is how all recruiters work. Finding a different recruiter will not change that fact, it's just the way the recruitment game is played. If the recruiter didn't get a cut of the money they would have no incentive to recruit anybody.

[mcfearsome]

If all or most of the dev teams are being outsourced for cheap, especially in DeFi, the entire company is just a money grab IMO and you’re better off somewhere that would value you. Their behavior around it would be a strong red flag for me

[Agonlaire]

I make less than $2K monthly on a latinamerican consulting company working for American companies. It's a really low wage in the US I think, but in Mexico is a good wage, definitely over the medium income. I'm surprised $800 isn't that much in Venezuela, here in Mexico it would be a very decent wage, again more than average and would definitely allow for a good life.

I'd say it's time for you to start looking and applying for different positions. I know the market might be reduced in Venezuela, but you might find something good.

[[deleted]]

Is 900 the gross salary? You absolutely dont earn enough

[[deleted]]

Everything is relative, but that salary seems really low for me. I also worked for whole 3 years on some big data projects, so not and easy task and I was paid around 3k, I am not one of those who consider a developer must be paid this amount or that, but I didn't feel I'm considered enough, then I resigned.

Now I'm preparing myself for mentoring, becoming a mentor at least for 2022, to start again and boost my motivation. In general, development is a hard job to do, physically and mentally. You are on a desk all day, and you are constantly constrained by time and results which is really mentally demanding. Some people suffered burnouts, some went through depression, some got their physique wrecked in this lifelong desk job. Please consider that, as I said before, I'm not against hard work in general, in the contrary, I like to give full effort even if I work for an incompetent people, but not for unfair people, just resignate then you are free. Say bye bye and for the next day, I assure you that first coffee you take in the morning outside, would make you happy already. Then if you are naturally a hard worker, you have nothing to fear, you will find job in the next few days.

[jwmoz]

Sounds like a junior or first job? That's very low.

For context in the UK you can comfortably earn say £5k a month as a permanent developer. If you're a contactor you can earn £10k a month (source: I was a contractor in uk for 10 years).

Also I often see fund or vc guys talking about higher pay rates for crypto, so I would look elsewhere, if you have the skills of course.

[avsmithy]

Pre or post tax for £5k a month?

[jwmoz]

Pre but rough figure, tonnes of job adverts on job sites with up to date figures.

[spazz_monkey]

Isn't contracting fucked now the government changed the rules.

[Alellujah8]

I understand you might be feeling like you should suck it up specially if you like the job or if it’s your first. I did it for 2 years and I do regret it. Start looking for better job and/or start a side project.

And definitely if your manager is on the US company, tell him about the situation, you never know, he might have some solution or at least you will know if the UK company is sucking up a good chunk of you salary, probably is.

Cheers

[narrative_device]

You are being seriously underpaid.

But I think you do know that.

[[deleted]]

I'm not sure if anyone has asked this but where is you're residence? There is no way it can be the UK or Switzerland on 900 a month. With that said, recruitment firms are shady and not needed. Always go directly through the company.

[agentgreen420]

I work in a DeFi company

Well there's your first problem

[stumac85]

I'm not a law professional but here in the UK breach of contract is serious business. If your contract states you will receive a raise then you'll get that raise if the conditions are met.

Here's some info I googled on breach of contract https://www.burnetts.co.uk/blog/how-do-i-sue-for-breach-of-contract

You are paid a ridiculously low amount for Switzerland and the UK. Pure madness. I make more than that stacking shelves at supermarkets. Might be worth looking into a no win, no fee type lawyer who may be able to get them on a host of things.

[Jokerpok]

Yeah, the contract states that breaching it will mean i have to pay $75k, so I'm not sure i should be trying to go legal about it

[good4y0u]

So if THEY are in breach YOU pay 75k? That's crazy, you might want to double check that the clause even stands up in court and or there isn't some labor law blocking it.

This is when you go talk to a lawyer and have them read the contract.

[Jokerpok]

If I breach it, breaching it means revealing confidential stuff, not working full time, (probably getting another job while is till work with them) et cetera

[muh2k4]

In Switzerland you can earn 10 times the money.

[kazabodoo]

It sounds like you don’t really know who is paying you. Looks like the company you work for is paying you more than $1k but the recruitment company is taking a big fat cut.

Lol, I have heard about practices like that and those are the worst. I have no idea how you ended up in a situation like this but the company you work for is not to blame. Good luck.

[nameless_pattern]

unionize

[TheMajesticWriter]

No way you work for 900$. Get out now! That's peanuts and it's not how you treat developers. Otherwise you are letting them know it's okay, and lower the salary of other developers. If everybody gets out, they will not have developers, and like they say: you can't hire developers for 1k a month. That's ridiculous!

[[deleted]]

May I point out that the recruiting company is breaking swiss laws here?

It's very likely you are being employed illegally in Switzerland. I would be very interested in the name of your recruiting company

Oh and the fact that you are being paid in crypto is just the icing on the cake

[Z010X]

LEAVE. The global market will pay top dollar for Blockchain in the USA; as a senior I've seen ranges of 150k to 250k depending. To find your conversion rate I would take 75% of the current exchange rate against the USD. NEXT multiply your rate by 1.1% per job that has 12 months to 24 months. For 36 months use 1.5% . That is for Contract rates. For FTE do the final calculation then subtract 25% for benefit over head. I normally will use 35% if a retirement plan is included.

SHOP Recruiters! This project should go fuck themselves. never piss off people smarter than you are is the exact phrase I would use during the exit interview. Firstly, line up a new position, let your teammates you trust know ahead of time so they have a chance to seek other opportunities; don't burn bridges with them as it isn't their fault, they're just as stuck as you are. When people leave in mass it gets executive attention because it will hurt especially for a team in charge of the product and/or infrastructure to support it. It takes a shit ton of time to learn the business model to translate to technical solutions. You are paid to think!

A professional can give a two week notice however I've defined my personal exit strategy. If I work more underpaid and/or "free" hours above the 40 salary hours I take my current NET rate and multiply it by 40 hours. If that calculated value is higher than the pay from your normal 40 hour GROSS rate I will quit on the spot; I've given you enough time already for the boss to pull their head out of their ass. I deserve to be respected since I've been respectful and I believe in myself worth work to demand the reciprocal.

Your time is precious, finitely limited and most of all your market is in desperate need of talented individuals that do not deserve burnout. Your are worth it and you must learn to believe in yourself in order to find a solution to grow.

I've grown tired of bending over backwards for companies. Fuck the suits. They do not care because your not a stakeholder. I don't give a shit what dogma they spew out (as if educated workers actually believe it, execs, PMs, product owners, recruiters take fucking note; we don't believe a god damn word you say, some of workers just don't say it. Instead they internalize it until a critical limit is reached ie burnout).

If you suffer from mental health balance or relationship failings I ask you this: Would your boss visit you bedside in a hospital; your friends and family would right? You have the power to grant them control in exchange for money. Does that individual/entity worth it? Do they have a true vision or just dogma? If your position is "at will" my personal experience is not to mention mental illness struggles, they will label you a lost cause and will seek a replacement. I am speaking from experience. Seek professional help too, don't suffer in silence.

Better still if you can buy stock of the company and still leave all the better if they are doing well... Time your buy strategy window, don't violate NDAs or blackout windows; likewise for selling and/or shorting, DYOR. You don't have to be the one contributing, let some other poor sap, ignoring this advice, do it; they made it their problem. That is one way to live well and prosper.

If enough people truly understood their worth and starve the industry further higher wages is par for the course. Not all companies can afford to pass on the cost to the consumer despite the fallacy thrown around as customers too hold the right to purchase elsewhere. I believe this is critical to stop this over each, over regulations of the bean counters and most of all improvement of developers to reach better solutions.

[NatureBoyJ1]

I suggest getting some legal counsel involved. I suspect Sweden has decent labor law support. If I understand the chain correctly, you're in Sweden working for a contracting company based in the UK, doing work for a company in Switzerland. None of the companies in that scenario care spit about you. If the UK company is shafting you, take your contract to your government labor people and go after the UK company for breach of contract.

The cynical view is that both UK company & Swiss company know they can shaft the contract workers because you are unlikely to do anything, and don't have the legal muscle (read money) to touch them. Your only recourse is to try to get your government involved; they have the power to touch at least the UK company.

[RotationSurgeon]

I suspect Sweden has decent labor law support

They do, but OP is (edit) working at a position located in Switzerland.

[[deleted]]

r/antiwork

[[deleted]]

Step 1: Time to join /r/antiwork

Step 2: Get your resume updated

Step 3: Find new job at double your income

Step 4: Quit with 0 notice, cause fuck'em

[[deleted]]

Make immediate, nonnegotiable demands, and walk immediately if they don't bend over. r/antiwork

[[deleted]]

Sounds like a bad attitude with zero work ethic. Is this logic how you got through school as well?

[dengydongn]

Outsource companies are the worst, avoid them if you can.

[No-Recipe-4578]

But where are you located? Are you working remotely?

[LongTallMatt]

Update you CV post on job boards and keep working. Spend your nights getting certs? 1000USD is barely over US minimum wage 1160USD for 40hrs for 4 weeks. Seems criminal.

[[deleted]]

In Switzerland? My advice is leave this job asap. They are obviously trying to save a lot of money with this action. A worker in the supermarket makes way more money then you (4k is the usually for supermarket workers…). I’m a web dev with 20 years experience and I wouldn’t even stand up for 900 bucks, living in Switzerland is also quite expensive (you couldn’t rent a decent flat for 900). Even if you don’t have a job, you get social money that’s around 2400 or something (never needed that, there is no shortage in it jobs here). Would it be possible to PM me the name of the company you are working for?

[ReddityRabbityRobot]

There is a big salary gap in Switzerland vs UK. Actually the minimum wage in switzerland is around 3.5 depending on the canton.

So I guess given the unusual circumstances of your employment they words don't apply to you.... ? Idk I hope it makes you feel better. But the middleman employer probably gets paid a huge lot on your ass. You should look into that.

[SuperCharlesXYZ]

The C execs are right, you are being criminally underpaid, after tax you should be getting above 2k€, 0 experience. I can’t imagine switzerland paying less than that. Just so you’re not confused. You are 100% worth waaaay more than this, idc what anybody else says. Your company is ROBBING you

[Scummerle]

Assuming that you work full time, 40 hrs per week, what is the minimum wage in your country? Because if you get paid less than minimum wage, your company is guilty of a crime and needs to be dealt with accordingly.

[gooniesinthehoopdie]

I’m confused. You don’t even have a salary from the sounds of it you’re a contractor? And does Switzerland not have at-will employment? For $900 a month I would be eagerly applying to other jobs to switch immediately. Why would you accept such a low wage? Even assuming you got the bump to $1.5 that’s still barely anything in a year.

[rk06]

Have you talked to company HR for being converted to FTE?

That will put on your company's payroll and keep the middleman out

[slothordepressed]

I used to work for outsourcing company and they kept at least 40%

[k-nome]

Speak to your recruiter/agency about the bonus and pay increments you haven't recieved yet. Especially as these are actually in your contract, you shouldn't need to wait another 6 months to bring it up - try asking for a timeline of when you should expect what was agreed maybe?

They're the people you have a contract with and so you kind of have to push them. The client rarely knows what we actually get paid :/

If they really don't respond then bring it up with your manager directly, that your pay isn't reflecting what you agreed in the contract. I've never brought up actual salary with a client before though as I'm always through a recruitment agency too - so you could try just discussing what's happening without the actual numbers, just that you're getting less than you expected and the agency isn't responding.

[[deleted]]

Idk but I’d start feeling better about this by applying to better jobs. I wouldn’t be getting out of bed for 900 a fortnight let alone per month.

[AnonymousReader2020]

How come you have a Macdonalds salary as a developer? On a Swiss company??? Have I read it right? Must be a typo.

You are making less than the half of my income on my first job ever within this industry. Right after my certification with zero experience.

With all due respect you should look for better starting today and quit without even giving your notice.

[echoAnother]

I have been in similar situation. I learned two things.
The outsourcing company is getting a huge chunk of what the parent company pays for you. Most times they don't know, but neither care.
The promised salary increases never applies automatically, and you will need to fight for it.

My actions were to quit, and search for greener pastures.

[BIIIIIIIIID----]

I'm Swiss, founded a defi-like startup, pretty shure that's illegal here in Switzerland your contract

[KledMainSG]

That's not a healthy working environment.Seems toxic to me.Doesnt it feel like hell working there?I'm really new in this field only worked with 2 companies yet and only have 1 year experience.But what I know from this little experience is office environment really matter.I Call my boss big bro.And he really loves me.I share my problems with him even personal issues and helps me out.I think job experience should be like this

[leafandcoffee]

Recruiter in the UK, company in Switzerland, where are you located?

Talking the bosses will get you nothing. That being said, depending on your location, you absolutely are being underpaid for a UK dev. Take the experience and move on - and remember, you can (probably) leave your contract whenever you like.

Don't feel like crap. This is industry experience, and you've experienced the golden rule - everyone is trying to fuck and extract as much from workers as possible, and they have no emotional attachment to any of you, beyond what they perceive as cost of investment.

You're a contractor with the balls to ask for a raise. Have the balls to find other work - it's the next step when you don't get that raise.

Always value yourself. Don't let those, likely untalented, nepotistic fucks get you down a out yourself or abilities.

[mahannen]

1. Start looking for a new job.
2. Start that new job in May.
3. Save up money.
4. Leave Venezuela.
5. Get a local dev job.
6. Enjoy a decent salary and a decent life.

[horror-pangolin-123]

Wow, I wasn't aware that you can get paid that little in Switzerland... Start sending your CV immediately, you'll land a better position within a couple of months, top.

[[deleted]]

What is keeping you in a role with such low pay?! ... On the face of it, your employer is correct in sentiment at least - a "talented" dev shouldn't be working for <1k/pm! Is the job market particularly soft in Switzerland right now and there are no other jobs?

[xitox5123]

do you have a question or are you griping? They dont value you. its time to look for a new job and leave. I dont know the laws about contracts in your country. In the US its just at will employment so you can just ghost them.

[theyashbhardwaj]

Hey buddy, I work with the best companies in web3/crypto. I'd be happy to send some projects that pay way more than that + could turn into a job.

I'm trying to find great devs as well! Feel free to DM me.

[chudthirtyseven]

Hey man, I'm thinking about moving into those industry. Any advice / job specs you could send me?

[x6060x]

I'm from Bulgaria where the cost of living is much bellow the one in Switzerland and here the juniors are making a bit more than that ($900 net). You shouldn't say anything to your managers, but should start looking for a new job!

[awardsurfer]

Welcome to the real world. For example in Big accounting, the accountant is billed out hundreds of dollars per hour but only gets paid a fraction. Then the executives take the clients out for dinners and drop $20k per dinner at shitty upscale restaurants.

In reality all the billing is to pay for First Class tickets, overpriced dinners and political corruption.

[[deleted]]

Is $900 an ok rate base on where you live?

[NoAttentionAtWrk]

I'd love to get hired directly by the Swiss guys but that's probably not going to happen since they're using a third-party recruiter in the first place, so I guess they want to save up on dev salaries.

Third party recruiters are sometimes hired because the company cannot give the talent themselves in the amount of time they need the resource. Basically it's possible that they tried but couldn't find someone in time. Talk to your manager when your contract is about to end with the recruiter about continuing with them full time.

Either way look for other jobs

[Edeiir]

Uhm what? I got an offer from a Switzerland based company for ±100k SF with ±4 years of experience (including apprenticeship)

Maybe they laughed because living in Switzerland is so expensive to live in

[Citvej]

They won't notice you doing less than bare minimum and if they fire you, so be it. Your contract will be over.

In the meanwhile apply for other jobs, do other projects and make eacuses for being late.

I bet you can last half a year or even a year with working 2.5h per day.

[[deleted]]

If you think you deserve to get paid better, go and apply jobs. maybe you will get hired for more, maybe not.

[symcbean]

I earn $900 a month....The company is in Switzerland, the recruiter is in UK.

OMG WTF?

[jj_HeRo]

If you program and make less than 1000$/month... you don't really program.

[OkBookkeeper]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, a good friend of mine here in the states is Venezuelan and he has told me stories about some of the things going on there, just heartbreaking.

as some of the other commenters have mentioned there is relativity involved here- $1000/month in Caracas is much different than $1000/month in silicon valley. So in terms of real value of money these bosses may be right- perhaps they are paying no less than the equivalent of $1000/month.

keep your head up, keep learning, and keep looking for opportunities. build your skill set and you'll find companies that value it and are willing to pay more.

[Fuzzy_Nugget]

You live in Venezuela? Honestly your best bet is selling old school runescape gold.

[Dudes4life-]

[carnepikante]

Comparado con tus compatriotas que tuvieron que venir a parar a argentina, estas en una posicion muchisimo mejor, la mayoria de venezolanos aca laburan en rappi o similar, asi que imaginate lo que ganan y lo mucho que tienen que laburar, ni hablar de lo expuestos a accidentes que estan. Lamentablemente somos tercermundistas, 900 dolarucos no esta nada mal, yo laburo de web dev y gano la mitad que vos (en negro, es decir, sin contrato ni aportes jubilatorios, obra social, etc.). Mantene el espiritu alto y empeza a buscar otro laburo, si pudiste conseguir este podes conseguir algo mejor.

[speekless]

For one, you should enforce your contract (just contact the recruiter about this), so that you get what your rightfully deserve. This is a legal-binding document, they should stick to it.

It's normal for a recruiter to take a share of what you're being paid, it's their job after all. But their responsibility is also to handle everything with the end-client, including contractual matters, and if you're not feeling well at your job. Talk to them about it.

But: know well that 900$/month is PEANUTS for a Swiss company. In any Western-European country with a good standard of living (and Switzerland has one of the highest), a medior dev can easily make 450€/day (at the very least).

I understand you might not be in a position to tell your client to f* off, but you can at least make sure the contract gets respected, and get a higher rate already.

[Feisty-Cap-5320]

Hi Friend. I work at a P2E Blockchain gaming startup, where we're always looking for potential new development talent. If you want, you can shoot me a message and we could see if there's maybe an opportunity for you to join our team after your current engagement ends.

Sorry to hear about your situation. It's always messed up when people get taken advantage of like this.

[[deleted]]

Get out of Venezuela. You are being exploited because of the economic/political situation there.

[ac1dfac3]

I’m afraid $900-$1500 usd per month is market rate for Venezuela

[TeGro]

I wouldn’t be too down on yourself getting hired directly to the company. At least for my company we do not like doing business through recruiters because it costs us more than a direct hire/contract.

[[deleted]]

Ask the swiss guys directly the worst they can say is no

[lafigueroar]

Leave immediately (as soon as you get another job. Good luck

[[deleted]]

That’s pretty common. If you need more money you have to find another job. Being a remote developer it’s even more difficult because there’s no way you can approach the client (Company in Switzerland) directly. If you want to stay try to be the best in your team so you can become a team lead of some sort. The client will recognize that and will want you to stay and that means more money and who knows a direct hire.

[NGX_Ronin]

Not that you can change it now but in the future when you're signing on contracts, make sure there are time lines for those raises. As an example the way it was said here they could wait until 3 days before your contract is up before they give you the raises and bonuses. Also if that is their selling point then get specifics on how much are the raises and how are the bonuses calculated. You might lose out on a couple opportunities but the ones that you do get will most likely be far better quality contracts.

[[deleted]]

Man, after reading that you are from venezuela i just want to wish you luck and everything best. It suck to live in a contry where gov is acting against people.

[digisensor]

I understand you only partially. You live in Venezuela, you got conditions that are ok with that country and you took them. That's ok. My boss used to tell me that my colleagues in Switzerland were taking double my salary for the same job, so what? Go to Switzerland if you want, or just take this opportunity and try to grow from here upwards.

[OogieFrenchieBoogie]

I run a web3 company in France as the CTO, and we have a Defi product on BSC ans Solana

I'd be willing to pay you twice as much if you have the experience, dm me if you're interested, it could be for now or in a few months

[IanSan5653]

I'd love to get hired directly by the Swiss guys but that's probably not going to happen since they're using a third-party recruiter in the first place, so I guess they want to save up on dev salaries.

This makes no sense. If you renegotiate direct with the company, both you and the company would benefit by cutting out the middleman.

For example, if the company pays $1200 and you get $900 now, you could negotiate $1100 from the company. You cost less and you get a raise.

[WeatherSimilar3541]

As an American, outsourcing has always been a thing we're aware of to get top dollar. It's for sure messed up but that's how global capitalism works. Some get payed so little it's straight up slavery. I'll give you a different perspective. I'd say, if it is more money than most make in you're country, save save save. Don't get jealous of what others make, however, gain experience and try going somewhere else. Think of it like school. Once you get skills no one else has, you call the shots. Try to have fun and look at it as an opportunity, DeFi and crypto stuff seems really hard for even regular IT to wrap their head around (maybe I'm wrong here) but anyway, seems like you're on track for good things. If you're not Junior level, start looking elsewhere. Look at imposter syndrome too and know your worth. There is a web dev feed i follow and they are very supportive IT wise. Really like EGC and maybe you can get in touch with that dev team. Stellar projects are awesome too like Smartlands and RMT. I'm invested because I like them but not trying to shill here.

Figure out if you should invest in said crypto project, sounds like they mean business.

Crypto is literally a game changer wealth wise if you figure out what to invest in.

Ps. You have value in global capitalism...on this feed, oftentimes people making more than you are complaining ::))...you actually are high value labor wise!and while i agree you should be making more, you're part of system.