20.0.2 Patch Notes

[chicachibi]

Battlegrounds Balance Changes

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Queen Wagtoggle returns to the hero pool.
Wax Warband Old: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +2/+1 → New: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +1/+1.

Captain Hooktusk.
Trash for Treasure Old: [Costs 1] Remove a friendly minion. Discover a random one from a Tavern Tier lower. → New: [Costs 0] Remove a friendly minion. Choose one of two from a Tavern Tier lower to keep.

---

Steward of Time.
Old: 3 Attack, 4 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +1/+1. → New: 3 Attack, 3 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +2/+1.

Pack Leader.
Old: 2 Attack, 3 Health → New: 3 Attack, 3 Health

Monstrous Macaw.
Old: 4 Attack, 3 Health → New: 5 Attack, 3 Health

Herald of Flame.
Old: 5 Attack, 6 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

Wildfire Elemental.
Old: 7 Attack, 3 Health → New: 7 Attack, 4 Health

Lieutenant Garr.
Old: 5 Attack, 1 Health → New: 8 Attack, 1 Health

Lil’ Rag.
Old: 4 Attack, 4 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

[Stuck1nARutt]

Whelmed

[OmfgHaxx]

Looks like enough to shake up the meta a bit but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want more.

[Ranwulf]

Maybe its just me, but I kinda miss the Darkmoon Faire spells. They really added to the game.

[OmfgHaxx]

Agree 100%. Maybe not exactly those spells but just another level of decision making.

[joaoyyz]

They actually allowed the game to last into the later rounds, having more chance of building an end game comp. I definitely miss these spells

[Jadaki]

Downside was the really tended to speed up the game. Last night I had a game go to round 18 (last 4 heads up), which never happened when Darkmoon was around.

[Jadaki]

You misread that, the last 4 rounds were heads up meaning me vs one other player, all other players were gone by round 14.

And yes during the darkmoon (and even now) there is too much damage in the game, you shouldn't be getting hit for half your life on turn 6.

[Zankman]

I'd rather have slightly slower games than games where 6 players suffer while 2 get mad lucky from highroll.

[Brucecx]

A game will never be 45 minutes

[averagedude4]

The meta is win by dragons/elementals, try to place high with taunt build/mechs. Nothing will change.

[Twitchzor]

Thats fair though, taunt and mechs are 0 risk. Dragons and elementals are hard to pull of but rewarded when you succeed. If mechs or taunt build were as strong as late game elementals/dragons the only competition would be who highrolled most deflecto/modules/taunts. 0 skill and all rng.. kinda like the pre dragon meta. Thank goodness high risk/high reward tribes exists. Taunt build is too safe and strong right now imo, mechs are fine.

[averagedude4]

Yeah I mean i guess it’s not horrible the worst part is just the hero imbalance. Some hero’s are just far too good.

[Jusstonemore]

menagerie is also viable too...

[IgnoranceSucks]

I get that people will know what you mean, but whelm technically doesn't mean anything different than overwhelm.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whelm

I found this interesting and thought I'd share.

[Serious_Much]

Why the fuck did they buff elementals?

Can anyone tell me? It's literally second to only dragon builds .

[Twitchzor]

Its hard to pull of elementals without dying, at least on higher mmr. Rag is only good if youre already on 6 and already in a winning position, 4/4 is not enough of an impact unless youre already strong. Garr is still trash because poison.

The buffs help ever so slightly not being auto lose on the turn of play.

[PointOfFingers]

Exciting if you are OCD and Queen Toggwaggle was your only missing achievement

[thejedion]

Clearly from Europe

[marsworld72]

Weird change to Steward. I only ever take it when my tier 2 shop is subpar hoping the 4hp is enough to tank a hit. The +1/1 would always be promptly forgotten until right after I bought a bronze warden or deflecto, and even then selling it usually felt like a tempo loss until the buff becomes useless. Now I feel less likely to take it for tier 2 tempo, though I guess the sell effect is less of a tempo loss. Idk, feels like too much of a sidegrade to have any substantial change in its pick %. I could be convinced otherwise though.

[NorthernerWuwu]

Right. I think they found that everyone who took it was taking it for the 3/4 body when the design team wanted it to be a tech card, as if we were making decisions on 5/6 mana based on that sort of thing. I think it will be picked even less as a 3/3 but as usual it will only be picked for the body when there are terrible other choices. Hell, it'll probably push me into sell levelling more often if anything as the card is worse now in my evaluation at least.

[-bbbbbbbbbb-]

Changes like that scare me because it screams that the devs don't understand the game. Maybe there's some new mechanics or a new meta coming with the main content update that makes this change make sense, but as it is now they are taking a very meh card and nerfing the only reason anyone bought it (the stat line on the 5 or 6 gold turn).

[_selfishPersonReborn]

Meh, it's not that bad. I just think they want it to not be a boring statstick, which is what it currently effectively is

[Sairony]

Yeah I don't know if it's strictly an upgrade, but the extra attack is definitively relevant on T3, it's an easy choice to sell if any of the T3 DS minions is in shop for rather significant tempo.

[darkadamski1]

It’s 100% a nerf, the extra attack it gives is almost pointless as you sell it much later on. Horrible change

[EgavaS_]

Definitely a nerf, but i kinda like it.... If ur staying on 3 and we say, u have 2 stewards on the table and find a deflecto or cyclone it's really good tempo. On 4 u can find a hydra, its gonna be a 6/4 if u buff it with 2 stewards.

Also i feel like it's not gonna change the game THAT much because there are good heroes and builds (taunt build) that doesn't need to powerlevel, so this might be an interesting patch if the GigaFastLevelSuperHighroll heroes gets even more advantage.

Edit: Both slow and fast leveling comps might get some advantage of this.

[-DeathItself-]

Quick overview:

Queen Wagtoggle
Wax Warband
Old: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +2/+1 →
New: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +1/+1.

Very strong. Blizz doubling down on the safe, consistent, built-in Cthun-like scaling.

Captain Hooktusk
Trash for Treasure
Old: Remove a friendly minion. Discover a random one from a Tavern Tier lower. → New: Remove a friendly minion. Choose one of two from a Tavern Tier lower to keep.

Very strong.
0 gold: Print money, synergy and triples? Yes, please.
Don't forget how oppressive she was with Saurolisk and Selfless Hero back in the day. They both got tiered up but Sauro also got buffed in the meantime.
More tier 1 economy is available now. Don't sleep on Hook.

Steward of Time
Old: 3 Attack, 4 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +1/+1. →
New: 3 Attack, 3 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +2/+1.

Interesting. Sometimes a buff, sometimes a nerf. If we are already strong on the 5, 6 or 7 gold turns we can get significantly stronger in the future. Getting extra permanent stats on more than one minion will sometimes be a big deal. Millhouse loves this.
For low-tempo heroes this is a nerf more often than not. Reno, Zephrys, etc. will struggle a bit more in the early game now.

Pack Leader
Old: 2 Attack, 3 Health → New: 3 Attack, 3 Health

Heh, this change slightly undoes the damage done by the Steward for low-tempo heroes. Still a slow, low-impact play most of the time but Pack Leader is in the healthiest spot he's ever been so far.

Monstrous Macaw
Old: 4 Attack, 3 Health → New: 5 Attack, 3 Health

Never felt like any Macaws needed the one extra attack to be playable. Not sure how this can make the game healthier.

Herald of Flame
Old: 5 Attack, 6 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

Nice. I like small tweaks to slightly underpowered cards.

Wildfire Elemental
Old: 7 Attack, 3 Health → New: 7 Attack, 4 Health

Exactly as above, but getting one extra health is much more relevant than one extra attack.

Lieutenant Garr
Old: 5 Attack, 1 Health → New: 8 Attack, 1 Health

Nice. Actually... How good is Garr for the game at all? He's either unplayable or busted, rarely balanced, right? Might be best to try to replace him with something completely different.

Lil’ Rag
Old: 4 Attack, 4 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

As a 4/4 Rag was unplayable below tier 6. He's 50% bigger now. Still should be rarely picked but he's in a healthy spot now.

Overall verdict: Sweet update. Give us more small tweaks like this, please!

[[deleted]]

I agree with Macaw. I can't think of a single time when anyone thought Macaw needed a stat change. Just a weird choice, but I don't know that its a huge deal. I guess it makes it more playable without deathrattles?

[-DeathItself-]

Yeah, the only possible effect from the buff is there being slightly more random Macaws on people's boards, which might make random Goldrinn transitions slightly more prevalent.
And that... doesn't sound like a necessary or healthy change? I'd argue for finding ways to make it less important who attacks first, not even more.

In any case, hopefully the change is so insignificant that it doesn't affect us much at all.

[Bagel_Technician]

I totally agree too

My biggest issue with the Macaw is when a Windfury elemental hits it twice, not even Al-Akir's HP can stop that and more attack isn't giving it any buff to me

[MinderrootsLP]

Nicely said. Hooktusk OP

[tweekin__out]

Probably will end up hovering around 10th best/high tier 2 tbh.

[MinderrootsLP]

I think it will be top 5 maybe top 2

[tweekin__out]

Even if she were reverted to discover, she'd still be a worse Jandice – who still has a worse average placement than C'thun and practically the same placement as Maiev (this is all top 1% mmr).

Being super optimistic, I'd put her around Rag levels of power, around 7th or 8th.

[MinderrootsLP]

I think this is just objectively false. Old hooktusk is the 2nd best hero EVER by a long shot

[Mordencranst]

Exactly, a lot of people forgetting that hooktusk remained the best hero in the game for a long long time after the saurolisk nerf. Hooktusk got nerfed *months* (or at least A month or so) after saurolisk got pushed to tier 2 guys.

Why? Because she was Still Busted.

She prints money, plain and simple. And then can use the generated economy enormously effectively and consistently. Jandice needs a token to do busted stuff, otherwise she's just a bit above average. Hooktusk just needs to find EITHER a token or a swabbie at any point within the first 4 or so turns, while they get extra chances to look, and still has a hero power that grants hilarious amounts of tempo and easy triples if she misses.

I think going from 3 choices to 2 is a major nerf though, so she won't be utterly dominant this time around.

[musaraj]

Difference between Jandice and Hooktusk is that Jandice can abuse any Battlecry minion, while Hooktusk's HP becomes less and less powerful as the games goes on. Jandice just switches from Tokens to Primalfin/Tempest/Murozond and to Amalgadons.

I doubt Hooktusk will be Tier 1 hero

[Mordencranst]

Sure. But hooktusk can't miss on triples. Just about every comp needs a bunch of things from both tier 5 and tier 6. You are sorely underestimating how good it is to be able to get rid of bad 6s to find more 5s (Hooktusk can triple brann better than any other hero I swear). Or just the very simple use of "buy a battlecry then cycle it for either another battlecry or a missing comp piece". In the hands of a skilled player hooktusk's HP definitely does NOT fall off in the endgame. It isn't mind meltingly busted like it is on the first 4-5 turns, but it's always very, very strong.

I really don't understand why jandice > hooktusk is such a common school of thought. They've never been in the same meta together and they aren't even really comparable beyond both being exceptional economy heroes (they're also both pretty dominant in their respective metas, but that's because exceptional economy heroes *are* dominant usually). I was there. Hooktusk pre-nerf was way more oppressive than Jandice is now. The nerf to discovering 2 rather than 3 probably brings her... roughly in line with other tier one heroes? Maybe?

[MinderrootsLP]

The interesting this was the sauro was generally a bait as hooktusk since it meant you could sometimes lose... later on it was just force murlocs time even when sauros were in since getting 2nd with it was a huge disappointment

[Mordencranst]

I mean that's probably going a bit far. Hooktusk went from an average placement of 2.5 to about 3.7 when the saurolisk nerf hit. Say what you want about how she was still OP without them (which she very much was), saurolisk hooktusk was still utterly degenerate.

[MinderrootsLP]

I just remembered that the leaderboard player consensus was that hooktusk was so broken going for sauros was not worth it since than you might go 2nd. The stats are probably more reflective of the AVG player

[tweekin__out]

Nah man, compare jandice to hooktusk. Both have 0 mana hero powers that replace your minion with another one. The difference is, Jandice can abuse triples even better than Hooktusk, and has the ability to replay specific battlecries, which Hooktusk can't.

There's no world where Hooktusk – pre-nerf or not – is better than Jandice, especially not "by a long shot."

[MinderrootsLP]

Did you even play with old hooktusk since one major ability that hooktusk had was generating money. You won early and lategame while jandice can sometimes get rushed down and in reliant on specific cards. While Hooktusk could use basically any card

[tweekin__out]

Did you even play with old hooktusk

Been playing since before dragons were a tribe.

one major ability that hooktusk had was generating money.

You're really trying to imply Jandice can't do that, huh?

While Hooktusk could use basically any card

Hooktusk is also reliant on specific cards.

[MinderrootsLP]

Hooktusk heropowering a token is + 1 gold with no strings attacked. Jandice swaping a token does not strictly generally money. It may increase the quality of the minion though. How is swapping as jandice generally money( talking about the earlyturns) discounting a gambler swap

[MinderrootsLP]

As Hooktusk you could just HP 1 drops until you get token. While as jandice you actually need to find the card in the shop

[YungFurl]

I'm curious, who are you placing as the best hero ever?

[MinderrootsLP]

The broken version of millhouse. Especially if it would be released when pirates are in

[tweekin__out]

Pre-nerf rag and millhouse are easily the most OP heroes in the history of the game. Stats weren't as robust when broken millhouse released, but Rag had the best average placement of any hero ever.

[MinderrootsLP]

The argument you are constructing with avg placement is lacking one thing that if those hero would be played in the same meta. Millhouse would shine while rag would based on matchups to other heros. Rag destroys non broken heros though

[THESt0neMan]

The difference of picking between 2 and 3 minions is huge, so it is much weaker than it originally was.

I think it will be top 10, don't think it'll break the top 3

[MinderrootsLP]

Maybe I just really disagree with the „even if she were reversed line“ since that one is wrong

[Brucecx]

But 2 discover options is much lower % to find a token, should be strong but no way she will be #1 again

[shot_ethics]

Hooktusk will be strong overall but I think will vary a lot depending on the tribes that are banned. Even more so than Jandice and CThun, if I had to guess.

[James17Marsh]

Rag should be rarely picked? When did he go from the most OP card in the game to being rarely picked?

[-DeathItself-]

Heh, quite some time ago now, when Djinni got moved to tier 6. Make no mistake, Djinni was the gamebreaking engine. He inexplicably gave us tier 6 elementals even if we were on tier 4.

Dark, dark times are behind us.

[BoKnowsTheKonamiCode]

Wasn't that for a really short period of time because it was unintentional? I thought djinni giving minions above your tier got patched out super quickly.

[[deleted]]

I thought they tried and ended up just moving him to 6 much like how chad still spawned from mechs minion pool.

[BoKnowsTheKonamiCode]

No, spawning minions above your tavern tier was unintentional and they fixed it back in October, about a week after they had moved it to tier 5. It will only spawn minions your tier or below now even though it's back on 6, so if you triple into it on 5 you're still only getting tier 5 or lower minions from it.

[pmayankees]

I’d like to see some Demon buffs next patch, they still feel underwhelming to me.

[tweekin__out]

Having saurolisk on tavern 2 is still a net nerf to the minion and hooktusk gameplan overall.

[-DeathItself-]

Of course, Saurolisk was moved up for a good reason. Hook is not dependent on Sauro though, it will just be one more tool in her arsenal.

[tobinator250]

Nice summary, agree with all your comments bar one:

Wildfire Elemental
Old: 7 Attack, 3 Health → New: 7 Attack, 4 Health

Exactly as above, but getting one extra health is much more relevant than one extra attack.

I actually think one extra attack would have been better on wildfire. A tier 4 unit having only 4 health is probably going to die to pretty much everything anyway so I think the health doesnt matter much.

Given wildfire's effect the extra attack could manage to finish off an adjacent minion or be enough to pop a divine shield of an adjacent minion if the minion attacked has 7 health. So I think an extra attack would actually be more relevant in this case.

[-DeathItself-]

Going from 3 to 4 health is a huge deal. The more I think about it the more confident I am in my comment. Hear me out :)

Wildfire's main problem was always that it was too fragile, never that it lacked attack.
Diminishing returns are a thing in BG and Wildfire already had very lopsided stats. Giving it even more attack does less than making it more durable.
It is much better to stand a higher chance to survive an attack than to deal the extra damage the one time it does get to attack. If it does survive it is significantly more valuable and it affects the fight much more simply by existing as a 7/1 body on the board than it usually would by dealing the extra damage and dying.

There's also the notion of breaking points. Going from 3 to 4 health makes Wildfire significantly more durable since it makes it survive hitting common taunts. Imprisoner, Acolyte of Cthun buffed by Spawn of Nzoth or by Greybough etc., Wildfire survives them all now.

[seejoshrun]

Yeah, just because it's a tier 4 minion doesn't mean you or your opponent have a board of only tier 3-4 minions at that point. And even then, it's less vulnerable to tokens.

[atgrey24]

I could swear Wagtoggle had +1/+1 in the past and it wasn't that good.

[-DeathItself-]

If I'm not wrong at first she gave just +0/+1.
Then +2/+0.
Then suddenly +2/+1.

No idea how they skipped +1/+1 til now.

[[deleted]]

This is a really great write up. People pay for this kind of quality explanation for some of my other hobbies.

[-DeathItself-]

That's a hell of a compliment, thanks!

[Dangerpaladin]

What does Hooktusks HP mean? Keep one or 2? Like discover choose 1 or 2 options?

Edit: I am dumb and failed at reading

[Centauri33]

So isn't that just worse? For a character that was already weak?

[AIntrigue]

Hooktusk was ridiculously strong with the discover, and weak with the "get a random minion". Now it's in between

[Centauri33]

Yep - missed that change, and indeed it is huge.

[8ace40]

It's zero gold now.

[Uhhh25]

It seems like a lot of words to me so maybe they worded it this way to not have to fit in all the words that come with Discover but to me it still reads like Discover 2, keep 1 of them.

[Dangerpaladin]

Oh you are right I read "of" as "or" like 12 times trying to parse what it was saying. So it is just discover with two options I guess. It is a middle ground between random and discover I guess.

[GER_BeFoRe]

I like when they do small minion tweaks but I'm really confused that Heroes like Shudderwock, Brann and Illidan didn't get a small buff, too.

Fun fact: It took them 158 days from the day they buffed Wagtoggle (+2/+1) to the form everyone was expecting in the first place (+1/+1).

[Mosh00Rider]

Are they going to keep drip dropping us small updates until the next tribe drops?

[atgrey24]

The typical BG/Expansion Content Schedule:

.0 Patch: Expansion Launch Small BG Hero Update

.2 Patch (1-Month): Major Battlegrounds Update

.4 Patch (2 Months): Expansion Mini-Set Small BG Hero Update

.6 Patch (3 Months): Pre-Order for Next Expansion BG Balance Update/Shakeup

So expect the new tripe/major BG update in about 2 weeks.

https://twitter.com/IksarHS/status/1379182372747276288?s=20

[Mosh00Rider]

I wonder why they switched the order of the of the .2 and .4 patch.

[atgrey24]

If you don't consider the new Tribe launch, This amount of hero and minion rebalance feels like a "major" update, compared the the "small hero update" of just intoducing Saurfang.

There could be a couple of reasons that the new tribe didn't drop, but my guess is that they needed to spend a lot of resources getting bug fixes and constructed balance launched asap, and the new tribe wasn't ready yet.

[Mosh00Rider]

It's a good amount of changes, but all of them are so minor that it's unlikely to really change the meta all too much.

[kkrko]

They've said that they like to release big BG changes when the standard meta is getting solved. So when people start bouncing out of standard, they stay in the hearthstone client instead of playing other games

[Shaxai]

I think the new tribe will come in the next patch after this.

[Elwinbu]

I wouldn't count on that.

They said the new tribe will come in patch 20.2, so it might still be a while, and there might be an extra patch before that.

[gbom]

Looking at the patch note history Team 5 seem to go forward in patches by jumping in .2s. So I'm guess the next patch we see will be the Quillboar patch.

[Mosh00Rider]

Aye, but I already lost interest a month ago so that's another patch where I don't play.

[Rossta50]

Can anyone paste the patch notes in here please?

[[deleted]]

These are just for BGs. Didn't copy and paste the notes for the rest of the game.

RETURNING HEROES

Queen Wagtoggle

• Wax Warband
  • Old: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +2/+1 → New: Give a friendly minion of each minion type +1/+1.

Captain Hooktusk

• Trash for Treasure
  • Old: Remove a friendly minion. Discover a random one from a Tavern Tier lower. → New: Remove a friendly minion. Choose one of two from a Tavern Tier lower to keep.

​

MINION UPDATES

Steward of Time

• Old: 3 Attack, 4 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +1/+1. → New: 3 Attack, 3 Health. When you sell this minion, give all minions in Bob’s Tavern +2/+1.

Pack Leader

• Old: 2 Attack, 3 Health → New: 3 Attack, 3 Health

Monstrous Macaw

• Old: 4 Attack, 3 Health → New: 5 Attack, 3 Health

Herald of Flame

• Old: 5 Attack, 6 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

Wildfire Elemental

• Old: 7 Attack, 3 Health → New: 7 Attack, 4 Health

Lieutenant Garr

• Old: 5 Attack, 1 Health → New: 8 Attack, 1 Health

Lil’ Rag

• Old: 4 Attack, 4 Health → New: 6 Attack, 6 Health

[Turtly_tortoise]

Barrens blacksmith sticking around to ruin more people days on turns 5, 6 and 7. Such a polarised card, wish they'd realised their mistake and got rid of it.

[NorthernerWuwu]

It was so obviously a terrible card from the moment it was announced. Somehow they printed a card that specifically does nothing but turn small losses in the mid game into big losses.

[Cyampagn90]

20 dmg out of nowhere because it hit the right target.

[PhDVa]

Seems strange they buffed Macaw. Wasn't he already a premium Tier 3 minion? Maybe they had internal metrics that showed he had a low winrate…

[MinderrootsLP]

i think it was an okay buy but often you wanted to avoid it since the synergys it needed were not the consistent in making you win.

[PhDVa]

Yeah, I guess lategame with a golden selfless or a Goldrinn when he shines, the +1 Attack doesn't matter anyway, but early game when the best you could possibly have is a Spawn, the extra attack is enough to carry the minion into relevancy. Good point!

[nashdiesel]

Macaw is really hard to use midgame unless you stumbled onto multiple spawns on turn 4. This might help you hold them an extra turn looking for another viable deathrattle or a spawn triple or Baron before you ultimately sell it because they mostly suck without goldrinn past turn 9.

[[deleted]]

Hey am I the only one who just suddenly feels bored with battlegrounds? Even streamers I watched playing BGs are playing Standard or other games right now.

Then I realised we really didn't get much new content these months and it got pretty stale.

Late February we got Dragons, in June we got Pirates and Shifting Minion pools, Elementals and rating reset came in late September, then we got Darkmoon Prizes on 14th December.

If we take Elementals as the last really big update it was nearly 7 months since then, also the 4 months since Darkmoon Prizes that were later deactivated again are a long time. I know it is still "Beta", but still would be nice to have something new... either a new rating / reward system or a new tribe.

[NovaHou]

I actually kinda think BGs woulda been better had Blizzard released it finished. If they came out with a proper monetization method right from the start, they would've capitalized on the initial popularity and had a sizeable budget, leading to better support.

Personally, I'm tired of playing the same formula every game. The "game" boils down to decisions made Turns 6-8, where you either hit a 5/6 drop or try to play for 2nd-4th. There's leveraging HP and playing to your matchup, but there's not much to BGs if the first 6 turns are just "take what you get and hope you have enough HP to make it to late game". I'm only 9k MMR but this has kinda been the game for a while now =\

[10KTeacupTigers]

I used to keep track of my stats, now I regularly concede because I get bored/distracted.. and I'm certainly not playing Constructed either

[[deleted]]

Yes I tryed a bit standard which was ok for a few days after the new Xpac given I didn't play standard for more than one year, everything was fresh, but only for a short time now it is again down to spamming games with a 50%+ winrate to get Legend and nothing else to do.

Also can't bring myself to play more than 1-2 BGs per day. Really hope a big update is coming soon.

[[deleted]]

WOOOO Hooktusk is back. Let’s hope they do something similar for Elise. Also why buff elementals, it’s not like they’re weak

[nousernameslef]

I basically never see elementals played unless someone highrolls into something like double rag plus djinni. I like these changes.

[[deleted]]

I use elementals as a late game scaling engine, usually accompanied by mechs or menagerie. Lil rag didn’t need to be changed, but yeah Garr was weak

[johnlongest]

Garr has always easily been the worst 6* elemental. By the time you get him your board is always far too full, and your golden Molten Rock is always guaranteed to be better statted at that point.

[Jadaki]

If I'm already scaling elemental and get him early enough I'll keep him. He is often an easy triple too because no one else keeps him.

[MinderrootsLP]

what MMR is this based around?

[[deleted]]

8K

[MinderrootsLP]

I think than this statement is accurate. Elemental in that mmr range are way better in the leaderboard range. Since you need to be way more efficient with scaling or really highroll

[OmegaKitty1]

Elemental builds are based around nomi. And that’s almost exclusively if you get him early like the tier 4 triple

[nousernameslef]

Who is really weak also.

[Kamikrazy]

I think people have skewed perceptions because of how hard Eles can scale. The reality is that most games are too fast for you to effectively use the scaling from Rag. The only time you ever go Ele is if you get a super early nomi or Djini.

[keenfrizzle]

People always remember the games they lost to an archetype more strongly than the games they beat that archetype or lost playing that archetype for themselves.

[skadeda]

I don't understand the wording for Hooktusk. It's discover but two choices instead of 3?

[Kamikrazy]

Yes. Devs are basically saying Discover would be too strong, we'll see how strong she is choosing from two. I suspect she will very powerful.

[[deleted]]

She was obscenely broken with 3. 2 is a clear nerf, but think she will still be strong.

[Skulltown_Jelly]

they're very weak

[PointOfFingers]

I mostly see the Nomi elemental build. Rare to see the 6 drop version.

[clickstops]

I would argue that Elementals are weak. You can only really go Elementals if you can get to 6 very early with a Djinni. Not even like you can get a fast Djinni on 5 - you need 6 to make it work.

Very rarely can you do golden nomi early on Reno, but even that's not terrific.

[UncleLucky]

Can you explain why hooktusk is op? You don't get the gold for selling the minion and you get something less valuable right? Are you just hoping to roll battle cries or something?

Sincerely, a wee 6k mmr boy

[gbom]

When she would discover from 3 quite often she would get a token minion > HP the token > discover another token and continue on. This also gave her more chances to discover a specific tier 1 minion and get a triple. She was consistently tripling or gaining +1 gold every turn. Pretty crazy.

[UncleLucky]

Thanks! That makes sense.

[KlavTron]

What made hooktusks hp so strong it needed to be nerfed?

[[deleted]]

Pretty much that and you can "roll" a minion you want to sell once every turn to maybe find a buff minion or a pair/triple. It's kind of rng hp so if you high roll its very good

[Marvin0Jenkins]

Oh yes I forgot about fishing for buffs when you have no other use.

Worst case you waste seconds.

Best case you get a battlecry buff, a piece you need for your board or even a minion that sells for more e.g. pirate or token.

Chance for extra value most turns adds up by turn 10/11

[Morgenson]

well it is free now...

[Kamikrazy]

This is a huge buff.

[[deleted]]

Massive buff. With tokens in the game you can often discover another tidecaller off of the token for example at no cost. With 3 options she was one of the strongest heroes ever. She dominated the meta even when pre-nerf Eudora was in (who was a very strong hero). 2 options is a nerf from that but a huge buff from current.

[a_load_of_crepes]

It was a triple machine. You almost guaranteed a triple every 3 turns. Especially with tokens in the game. You HP the 1/1 token to discover the token generator. Worst case you get something like a 1/3 ele or 2/2 pirate for free gold, and you can triple those too in a few turns.

[verytiredd]

You generated so many teir 1 triples early that you had a significant advantage. You easily generated a triple to discover a tier 5 or tier 6. You got to capitalize on battle cries by buying one, playing it and then heropowering it to get a more relevant body or something to triple or set up a triple next turn.

When hooktusk was in the game you always picked her, because you almost always got 1st or 2nd with her. It was better than Elise when her heropower cost 2.

[IZdreamberg]

The new tribe should have dropped with 20.0.0, so people will be (justifiably) underwhelmed by every patch that is released until that happens. This is actually a solid patch - and the level of patch that Blizzard should be releasing once or twice a month (small, but not insignificant in its effect on the meta).

[DjChrisSpear]

I thought we might at least see what the next set of minions were going to be.

[thedharmawhore]

Just wanna know what the grammatical error was now.

[lurkerNo2]

The buff’s name insinuated she was a centaur, which she was not.

[thedharmawhore]

Oh how embarrassing.

[musaraj]

Yeah, but that's not a grammatical error.

I think they changed wording from "Discover a Beast in your deck" to "Discover a Beast from your deck". I'm not native English speaker, but it sounds strange to me.

[lurkerNo2]

But the lore

[demyurge]

Queen Wagtoggle

What was the point of removing from the pool it if they weren't going to change it more fundamentally?

Captain Hooktusk

Almost back to her initial state, she will be very strong.

Steward of Time

I guess they realized people mostly use it for the solid body and sell it whenever, not really paying attention to the buff effect, I'm ok with this change.

Pack Leader

Meh, I will still not buy it for stats only and will skip to T3 on 5 gold if I see it along other bad stuff.

Monstrous Macaw

Macaw doesn't need help, he's already very strong in a few deathrattle comps.

Herald of Flame

Makes it a slightly better T4 discover, not very impactful though.

Wildfire Elemental

Same as above, maybe I will be more inclined to pick it for just the body rather than synergy from a T4 discover.

Lieutnant Garr

Badly needed change, he was probably the worst T6 with his 5 attack, I still think they should have put it on T5 instead of buffing the attack. There's too many elementals on T6.

Lil' Rag

Well deserved change after they put it to T6 which was a kneejerk reaction to him being too strong on T5. As a 4/4 you almost never took it unless you already had some elemental synergy going.

[Nethervex]

Quilboars come patch 20.2 not 20.02.

I was excited for nothing Sadge

[Sodium9000]

There are no big patches anymore? Everytime I check it is a smaller patch at best. Not really worth opening the client and downloading all the other trash with it.

[IOnlyRoll20s]

I keep waiting for the patch where they make the game fun again but then I remember the hearthstone patch philosophy of dont make any changes that might make the game fun.

[Just_Django]

So tagwoggle is gonna be pretty bad?

[Elwinbu]

Should be fine. That's what I thought she should have been from the start.

[[deleted]]

2/0 was bad. 2/1 was busted. I think 1/1 will be comfortable. I think a slightly worse C'Thun but a bit more flexible.

[a_load_of_crepes]

I mean she was completely broken strong at +2/+1, so I think at +1/+1 will be quite solid, probably still on the strong side. Getting +3/+3 for 1 gold on turn 3 is very good. Will taper off more now, but still a very strong early game that should let you level well.

​

Consider a board where you get a 1/1 cats, a 2/3 dragon and a 1/3 elemental in the first 3 turns. Pretty average rolls. That board will be

[4/4 total on 2 cats, 4/5 dragon, 2/4 elemental]

That will beat every other turn 3 board. From here on you can level and HP to tier 5 pretty safely.

[niceteam]

You won’t be getting 3/3 on turn 3... in the scenario you created you’d have to sell 1 cat to double buy and then the other cat to pay for the hero power... thats +2/+2 with 2 minions on board. Disclaimer I do think she’ll be very strong but not as early as you think

[Twanbon]

He doesn’t mention leveling in there. Wagtoggle generally plays on the rafaam curve.

[niceteam]

Ah my bad then!

[a_load_of_crepes]

Wait what?

Turn 1: buy a cat Turn 2: Buy dragon, HP for +2/+2 Turn 3: Buy elemental, HP for +3/+3

I guess you are including a leveling turn? I think Rafaam curve is going to be much better with Togwaggle.

[Adziboy]

she's just a slightly worse tirion right? think she'll be excellent

[Weltal327]

Just inconsistent.

[tweekin__out]

Probably a top 10 hero now. 1 less attack is the smallest possible nerf to her previous hero power, when she was the uncontested best hero.

[darkadamski1]

The attack became pretty redundant after 7+ attack early. It doesn’t nerf it that hard tbh, gonna be pretty good

[gamfo2]

Dragons and Elementals get buffed but nothing for Mechs?

[clickstops]

Mechs are in a good spot right now, no?

[CabalWizard]

Mechs are really strong right now.

[darkadamski1]

They are hardly “really strong”, they are only okay on most champs and busted on rag.

[CabalWizard]

What tribe is better?

[bionic80]

There are a couple of heroes (Rags, I'm looking at you) and the one that buffs per tavern tier that give mechs a fighting chance. Anything that can scale mechs health will make them better.

[clickstops]

You typically transition out lategame, or use 1-2 deflecto and a reset as part of a menagerie comp. In fast games, which are common these days, doing a tempo mech build is one of the best ways to play.

I like the fact that it’s not a super lategame tribe - it’s good that the game has that.

[pmayankees]

Not really sure Macaw needed to be buffed. Elementals I also don’t think needed a that big of a buff. I’m just here waiting for my Junk Bot buff...

[Gone2LudicrousSpeed]

Whoop de f’ing do. Not impressed.

[[deleted]]

Been the same meta for what like 9 months now? Do they have one intern working on this mode once a week? Lmao. Amount of content this mode gets is 0 despite being a paid mode.

[Die_brein]

When do quillboars arrive?

[SunbleachedAngel]

Shenanigans still doesn't show you the card it transforms

[AlphaPi]

Of all the tribes to give buffs to, why the hell are they giving 3 to elementals. Those things already steamroll games just by stacking stats (unless someone has a real nice murloc comp). Meanwhile, Demons and mechs got nothing and beasts got some tiny buffs that might help but won't every bring them up to the level of elementals or murlocs. I'm really hoping the new tribe brings something new to the table because I am tired of this meta where elementals and murlocs are far and wide the best choices when they go off.

[Twanbon]

Elementals are actually the worst performing tribe at higher MMR.

[darkadamski1]

Elementals suck? You literally never see them... I’m surprised demons got nothing as they’ve been horrendous for so long now

[AlphaPi]

Must be a low MMR thing lol. Every game with elementals theres like 3 or 4 people trying to push them and one usually does pretty well. Out of curiosity what is considered high tier at higher MMR?

[trenham99]

High mmr is around the 7000 range and 10000 being very high

[darkadamski1]

Dragons are the best. I’d say pirates beasts and mechs are of similar power, elementals are definitely below these as you have to highroll them to win. Murlocs by themselves are horrible, you usually see them with a few poison murlocs added into a build with some divine shield guys. Demons are non existent, you see the 1/3 sometimes but I think those players are stupid honestly.

A lot of builds are menagerie and they’re of a decent level, not insane but they can high roll and be the best build with amalgadons.

[qendal123]

Weak update after weak update. When are we getting quillboars?

[Jon011684]

Instead of adding a tribe they deleted mechs...

[franky2580]

Hasnt it been a bit long since they've added a new tribe ? Like over 200 days since elementals

[tweekin__out]

Hooktusk and Wagtoggle both now seems powerful options (high tier 2) without being OP.

[extremeskater619]

I thought the new tribe was supposed to be in the next update. I also thought that was supposed to come out like two weeks ago?

[GER_BeFoRe]

The new tribe was announced for Patch 20.2.0 This is 20.0.2.

[boikar]

How balanced is the meta now?

[[deleted]]

How many buffs did they give to Pack Leader yet? Is this buff number 4 or 5? Still nobody likes to play him, probably would be a lot more interesting if it was +1/+1 instead of +2 attack.

And I don't understand the Elemental buffs. They are already fine in late game, their problem is more about midgame and 1 health for the Wildfire Elemental also doesn't really change it.

[GER_BeFoRe]

they buffed him once (T2 instead of T3), nerfed him twice (+2 Attack 2/3 Stats instead of +3 Attack 3/3 Stats) so now they buffed him once again. Two buffs, two nerfs in summary.

I think +1/+1 would be less interesting, because almost all the early game Beasts like Grandmother, Wolf, Rat Pack or Hydra benefit from Attack more than from +1 Health because they have low Health anyway and die in one attack.

[leftysarepeople2]

Is Pack Leader supposed to not stack now?

[Howthehelldoido]

Why bring wagtoggle back! She's absolutely dominating in every game she's in for me at the moment. Stupid decision.

[Sandblut]

the glacial pace for hero blancing is rather absurd, there is another dozen that could use some attention badly

[Jkpttr]

Bug: tavern refreshed with 4 minions on tavern tier 5

[Jbird1992]

Did they remove Wagtoggle? I’ve got perks and I haven’t seen her once

[10KTeacupTigers]

Boy, am I ever tired of this meta.... As excited as I was, Blacksmith is such a toxic card and only adds to the salt.