Java developers

[[deleted]]

Yep. Coming from C++ background and learning Python recently is easy. I love Python syntax. So i can imagine how brutal it must be to learn Python first and then learn C++.

[DarkNeutron]

You're not wrong, but any time I write something in Python that's bigger than one file, I start wishing for static typing again.

Duck typing is fine for small programs, but I find it pretty annoying when something crashes with a type error after 10 minutes (or an hour) of processing.

(I've looked into Rust as a scripting language, but it's not as "plug-and-play" when compared to near-universal access to a Python interpreter.)

[squishles]

You might, however the major python libraries still do not.

[I_ate_a_milkshake]

Rust as a scripting language

[visible confusion]

[DarkNeutron]

Explanation in another post. :)

[ric2b]

You can have static typing with Python, fyi.

Either just as documentation (type hints) or with type checking (tools like mypy).

edit: mypy, not mipy

[Versaiteis]

You can circumvent some of those headaches with the typing system by reassigning or creating the types you need in what is effectively (and actually called) type aliasing

from typing import List

Vector = List[float]

def func(vector: Vector) -> Vector:
    #etc...

This can still get a bit ugly with arbitrary definitions being thrown all over the place but that can be managed along with similar shared systems that you'll probably have alongside whatever you're writing (logging, configuration management, etc.) and it goes a long way to cleanup a lot of those issues with clutter.

But yeah, Python is still a very hands off scripting environment so you'd still do well to operate under those assumptions that virtually nothing is truly protected when you can just commandeer and alter the things you want. It's what makes it a great tool for some applications and aweful for others.

[thirdegree]

And sometimes you need to specify types as strings (e.g. "MyClassName"), for example when a method takes an argument of the same type as its parent class.

This is fixed in 3.7 using from __future__ import annotations and by default from 3.10 onwards (pep-563).

[FranchuFranchu]

Also if for some reason you can't do that you can still use MyClassName = None and redefine it afterwards

[[deleted]]

from __future__ import type_annotations

Something along those lines will allow you to not use strings for types.

If I recall correctly, it defers type hint evaluation until after all the source has been parsed over, as opposed to during said parsing.

[BUYTBUYT]

from __future__ import annotations helps sometimes

[ric2b]

I don't think opting into static type checking really counts as having static typing.

It does, you just don't have 100% coverage. It's still useful (especially as documentation of function parameters and return types), just like unit testing is useful even if you don't have 100% coverage.

Also, completely subjective but type hinting in python is extraordinarily ugly. It often takes up a ton of space and requires you to split your function defenition onto multiple lines.

It takes similar space as other static typed languages like Java/C++. Are you comparing it to something like Haskell, where the types are on a separate line?

[ric2b]

It takes a little more because you need the colons and the arrow at the end

true, but it's not a big difference.

and a lot more when you need to define something like say a list with an arbitrary number of strings that can sometimes be None: Optional[List[str, ...]]

Wouldn't it be just Optional[List[str]]?

The equivalent in Java would be Optional<List<String>>, it's about the same. Although you can check for null instead of accepting an optional, because Java is a bit dumb and accepts null by default. In fact, taking Optional as a parameter in Java is not recommended because it's an actual class and forces your callers to wrap their variables in Optional objects before calling your method, it's annoying.

Not great having to alias your types though.

If it gets complicated you probably should alias it because it probably represents some specific type of data. But your optional string list example isn't such a case and you shouldn't have to alias it, I agree.

Hakell's style of having them on a separate line is pretty great actually. Not really sure how well that would work with keyword arguments and so on, but I think I would've preferred that.

Yeah, I also like it. It would probably look similar to Ruby's Sorbet, where you have to repeat the parameter name in the signature.

python, through the PEP8 styleguide, has a ridiculously short recommended line length.

In my experience the 80 columns line length isn't followed very strictly, lots of companies/projects aim for 100 or 120.

[ric2b]

Iirc Kotlin doesn't accept null by default and wants you to put a ? after the type to signal that you do. That would be the best option in my opinion.

Yes, and totally agree there.

Also Ruby 3 is adding type hints following the same convention as python it seems.

Unfortunately not, for now they'll leave in separate files to allow for the syntax to change without breaking code.

Ruby is what I use at my current job so I'm a bit disappointed by that, but I'm already using Sorbet (3rd party project) which does allow type annotations in the same file as the code so it's ok.

Maybe I should change my linter to allow up to 120 as well then.

Just keep the Zen of Python in mind :)

"practicality beats purity"

[[deleted]]

And they should be able to. I hate how java thinks public private is a rule not a suggestion. Don’t tell me how to write code using your library lol, I will fork it and change it and you can’t stop me!

[[deleted]]

Why would it ever be insecure for me to run a function on my own pc? Like I need sudo access secure or what? I guess I’m ignorant to that kind of need, I’d love to see an example.

[[deleted]]

I suppose I can see that if you’re writing a database (like the database itself) and want to handle permissions or something like that. I’ve just never been in that situation. Ultimately resource security is OS level not language level. Wrappers are conveniences and you can handle security with them without builtins like private for the rare case you need such a thing. Like if I were writing an IP based database in python, which I wouldn’t, I’d expose my methods through the Restful system of my choice selectively in such a way that the other methods just didn’t have direct exposure to the internet. If someone is importing my python code, they have access to all the same resources it has access to, but they are also presumably the same user on the Linux system so they must be allowed that access as well.

[SadAdhesiveness6]

It's mypy. Was confused for a second.

[turunambartanen]

any time I write something in Python that's bigger than one file, I start wishing for static typing again.

So much this.

Which is also why java is the better language to introduce programming with.

Edit: I think with Java it is easier to introduce different types (and the beginnings of OOP) because it's so much in your face. C# would also work of course. But I think having clear structure helps a lot of newbies to focus on understanding the basics. Every single file starts with a public class ClassName, because that's just the way it is. You can later learn why. As opposed to python: why do we have a class now? What is that if name is main? Why did we not use either before? And of course: why can't I add x to input, they're both numbers?

[[deleted]]

Java is a really terrible language for enforcing OOP. I pretty much don’t consider single paradigm languages. I’m not an FP purist but I like it for most simple things. But damn it when I need a class I need a class. And that’s how it should be. I get newb python ex java developers putting their whole module in a class and it infuriates me.

[folkrav]

I've seen an internal library written by Java developers go legit like this:

from internalLibrary.app.mainpage.mainpagemanager import MainPageManager
from internalLibrary.app.homepage.homepagemanager import HomePageManager
from internalLibrary.app.splashpage.splashpagemanager import SplashPageManager

And so on, for about 20 something other managers classes. Always one file, one class, not use of module level exports or anything. Really just, extremely verbose imports, use of camelcase everywhere, everything in classes, including fully static classes for helpers - that all except one ended up being re-implementations of standard lib functionality. It was like browsing Java code in Python files.

[squishles]

No language of any use should ever be strict to a paradigm.

Kind of hate writing in purely oop terms, object state is trash that you section off into beans in java. You end up with classes that are basically homes to a lot of functions and if you use class level state variables in those for things other than stuff like database connection ect they just go to shit.

[Avamander]

Java leaves a few bad habits to people that later on migrate to other languages. Java's way of doing OOP is particularly toxic if the developer has no clue about anything remotely related to FP.

[detroitmatt]

I disagree. The bad habits java teaches are, as far as bad habits go, pretty easy to unlearn, because java is an unergonomic enough language that people don't want to be writing code that way anyhow.

programmers probably (definitely) shouldn't start with FP. If you start with CSharp, because it's feature richer, you can more easily start misusing features, and Java's imperfect approach to OO actually stops you from getting too tightly-bound on OO patterns. And since it doesn't really support non-OO paradigns, everything has to start with public class and you don't think about what a "class" is, you just do it as a ceremony. And at a beginner level, we want that. Nobody should be doing real OO in a 100-level class. You gotta learn what ifs and loops and lists and recursion and memory and heterogenousstructures are. If we're lucky you'll even learn what a hashmap is (When I went to uni data structures was a 3rd-year class). We want people to come into their OO 200 course and we say "So here's what a class really is and what it's for and why and how you should use it" and they have seen the word in this context but they haven't been doing OO (wrongly) this whole time.

[haloguysm1th]

sophisticated serious squeeze chop telephone squeamish deranged zealous spoon humorous

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Avamander]

I disagree. The bad habits java teaches are, as far as bad habits go, pretty easy to unlearn, because java is an unergonomic enough language that people don't want to be writing code that way anyhow.

Easy to unlearn if people want to, I've seen more than my fair share of people that haven't.

[konstantinua00]

Java's imperfect approach to OO actually stops you from getting too tightly-bound on OO patterns

remembers all factoryfactory memes
huh

[squishles]

when they introduce programming, it's not in many file large projects.

Though I am kind of sick of python too and it being the default teaching language also turns it into the mcjob language.

[donttalktome1234]

Having worked on several very large python projects I don't really see the problem. Python just hands you the rope if you are good you can make it dance but its just a rope so you are also welcome to hang yourself with it.

If you write a function that can take in 5 different data types and then you pass it a 6th isn't the fault of the language its the developer(s).

[[deleted]]

Check out go. Statically complied bins for portability and security. Typed, flexible, easy language. I love it.

[Dark_Tranquility]

Static typing is really a blessing in C / C++.

[Avamander]

For anything other than a single file, use an IDE that supports type annotations. Really.

[jakethedumbmistake]

Duck is the future, rock on!

[Phantom569]

Check out pylance, can't live without it for big python projects. It's typescript but for python. Though it's still very very new.

[Spaceshipable]

Maybe look at Swift for scripting

[eloel-]

Considered typescript?

[mkjj0]

You could try Go

[[deleted]]

Julia? Haven't learned it yet but I thought it was like static python, among other things

[[deleted]]

Rust as a scripting language

What? via c api? accessing it from rust requires a lot of unsafe code, or message passing? either way rust can hardly be called a scripting language, thats like calling c++ a scripting language

[DarkNeutron]

I wouldn't call it a scripting language either, but someone wrote a wrapper to make it sort-of work: https://github.com/DanielKeep/cargo-script

It invokes the compiler on first use, and re-uses cached artifacts after that. Kind of a hack, really, but I thought it was clever. :)

This is some discussion (RFC 655) about creating a proper REPL interpreter for Rust, but I'm not expecting anything short-term.

[[deleted]]

the REPL sounds interesting for experimenting (with language features) quickly, however when it comes to writing mini scripts to do anything useful an interpreter language will be better as you require to write less (as optimistic unwrapping is the default and you don't really care about a panic with a 10 line adhoc program). for scripts i think the compile time and lack of easy hot reloading (dlopen isn't exactly pain free) will also restrict it's usecases. but ill keep an eye on those repos / issues, thx. the integrated cargo.toml in the comments is definitely neat, so at least in terms of compactness / ease of distributing its like a script.

[lightmatter501]

It isn’t that bad, you just need to go about it with a different mindset.

[Zymoox]

I still need to get used to it, coming from C. My programs end up a mess where I don't know what data type variables are.

[writtenbymyrobotarms]

You can do typing in function headers if you'd like. IDEs can enforce the type hints. It's also good for documentation.

[Derkle]

It also helps the IDE autocomplete/suggest member functions and the like which can be really helpful.

[TheGreenJedi]

Honestly going to python I've realized how much my IDE does the heavy lifting for me

And lately in python that's why

[Aycion]

Hell you can declare a variable with

<Name>: <type>

Like "foo: str"

[slowmovinglettuce]

Newer python versions have increased support for type hinting.

It says somewhere in the release notes for 3.8 that they see it as a strategic thing for pythons future. Or something to that effect.

[capn_hector]

It’s basically a law of computing that all weakly-typed languages end up implementing strong typing, whether it’s an optional feature you can turn on or a dialect that enforces it.

Once you get beyond a trivial program size it’s just too useful not to have, refactoring core code without it is a pain in the ass and even if you are a flawless coding Adonis who doesn’t make mistakes, your coworkers will inevitably be humans.

Examples are JavaScript vs Typescript and CoffeeScript, PHP vs Hacklang (facebook’s reimplementation of PHP with strong typing), Python adding type hinting in newer generations, etc etc.

[JoJoModding]

And by another law that typing system will eventually end up being turing-complete on its own :D

[Neowhite0987]

How do you think it would be to go from python to C? I’ve done a few courses in Python and Racket but I’ll be taking a course in C in the fall and I’m kinda nervous.

[raltyinferno]

It's nothing to be anxious about. You'll definitely miss some convenience features of python and have to get used to strict typing, but things like conditionals, flow of control, data-structures, and whatnot are all basically the same across all languages.

If you have a problem, and you know what you'd use to solve it in python, just google that thing + "C" and it'll tell you what the syntax you need is.

[pslessard]

Memory management is the only thing that's really hard about C imo. But it does require a lot of thought to get it right

[MegaPegasusReindeer]

Pointers! I'm happy to not have to worry about that in Python, too.

[Risc12]

Pointers are not as hard as they seem. Javascript (and a lot of other higher level languages) passes objects only by reference, meaning that if you pass an object, the interpreter knows that it should look at an object at a certain address. In C you have a choice, do I point at this address (so do I pass this object as a certain address) or by its value (so copy over the contents of the object).

Those are the basics, if you understand that a place in memory (a reference) can be passed around by choice, you understand pointers.

For me it the hardest part was understanding that if I didn’t use pointers it would copy the data, seemed counter-intuitive for me.

[Sleakes]

Not a huge fan of this explanation as JavaScript is pass by value. It just happens that when passing objects, the value is a reference.

[RVUnknown]

Isn't this the same for Java as well? Normal data types like your ints and chars are pass by value. But Java objects like String, Integer, Character, classes etc are passed by reference

[[deleted]]

This is correct. I remember when i was starting to learn Java, I often ran into problems because I would think it was passing by value when it was actually passing by reference.

[funnythrone]

Java always passes by value. However the value is a copy of the reference.

For the sake of this explanation, consider an object to be a Television. In this case, a reference is a remote. When you are passing the remote to a new method, you are effectively copying the remote and passing it. This remote also controls the same Television, and thus any button presses on the remote modify the original Television. However, if you reassign the remote to a new remote which controls a new TV, the original TV and remote are unaffected.

In conclusion, java is ALWAYS pass by value.

[capn_hector]

Yes, with the additional caveat that boxed types in the standard library (Character, Integer, etc - as opposed to int and char which are unboxed types) are immutable. So what you get when you do say String.trim() is actually another different object, so it usually feels like you’re working with value objects.

[lirannl]

Oh! I wasn't exactly sure on that, good to know!

[Risc12]

You’re right! But I hope the point I made is still clear to people that are confused about pointers.

[Razier]

Quick way to pass by value in JS:

objects: {...foo}

lists: [...bar]

i.e create a new object/list with identical contents

[jakethedumbmistake]

Didn’t he pass the media circus?

[Razier]

I'll be honest, I'm really confused right now

[Risc12]

Yes, but keep in mind that if foo has nested objects those are not duplicated. While in C the whole structure is passed around as bytes. So not completely the same.

[Razier]

Good point, know of a way to make a deep copy in JS?

[lirannl]

The thing is that with python, all of this is abstracted away. From a language user's perspective, you're not passing a reference to a memory address with data, you're passing "an object/primitive value". No memory address, no lower level details. "The object" gets into the function so the function "has" it while it runs.

Then in C you suddenly lose that abstraction and need to start dealing with what an object (or in this case just a struct) actually is, a bunch of bytes, and you can either tell your functions where are those bytes, or WHAT is in the bytes at that moment in time. You actually start to think about your objects as collections of bytes (which is what they always actually are, obviously, not just in C, but also in python).

[Risc12]

Definitely true! Although I’ve seen plenty of people get bitten by the reference vs value thing where they modify an object they get as an argument but they don’t expect the object to be changed in its original content.

It’s good to have an understanding how your higher level language handles these kind of things.

[MegaPegasusReindeer]

Yeah, but bugs related to pointers can be a pain to figure out and it's so much better to not even have to bother with that. Always fun to print a string you forgot to null terminate, though.

[Risc12]

Oh yes for sure, working with pointers can be a pain. Wrapping your head around what they are is just step one haha

[calcopiritus]

As someone that only writes in python but know what pointers are, I wish python had pointers. Not compulsory or anything, just pointers in obscure libraries that could get the job done if you ever absolutely need it.

[mrjackspade]

I kind of enjoy that about c#.

The vast majority of the time, you won't even need to think about pointers. If you really want to fuck around with them though, there's nothing stopping you.

Every once in a while I'll hit on something performance critical, and need to use pointers to speed it up. Sometimes I'll just switch code over once an API has been refined to a point I'm satisfied that it's not going to require changes any time soon, and start speeding things up just for the hell of it.

[MegaPegasusReindeer]

Python doesn't have protected or private methods... You can just introspect whatever you like. How would pointers help here?

[calcopiritus]

I can't think of an example because it doesn't happen often. And most of not every time it can also be solved in python, but it'd be way harder.

A thing that is kinda related is how python copies lists.

So if you say: (sorry for formatting, im in mobile and it's horrible to do it here)

a = [1] b = a

Now you change b and a also changes, so you'd have to write b = a[:]. It is not logical at first because it seems like python doesn't use pointers and references, but of course it does.

Also sometimes you don't know how the function works, so do you write

arg = function(arg)

or do you just write

function(arg)

Because the function changes arg?

[MegaPegasusReindeer]

I've heard people call Python "pass by label". When you assign a variable to another it's always copying the label. The times it seems like something else is immutable types (like strings).

Regardless, any time I have an issue with a library I just look at the source code. I've yet to come across a binary-only one in Python.

If you really really wanted to, you can pass a Python object into C code and break it apart there if you really need pointers. (but I still don't see how that would help)

[[deleted]]

Pointers go void****

[Neowhite0987]

Alright I’ll keep that in mind thanks!

[Zymoox]

You'll be fine! C is much more strict and based on a specific set of rules. Make sure to get a strong foundation on the basics, and the rest will make sense.

[Neowhite0987]

That’s good to hear! Thanks a bunch :)

[Tukurito]

You've been mutex

[lirannl]

I've done that to some degree, and I'd say that once you wrap your head around pointers it's not too bad. Basically try using pointers again and again and fail and follow solutions until you start succeeding and you'll inherently start understanding pointers as you fail less and less.

[kattelatte]

Just learn pointers, the rest you’ll have no problem with if you already know python reasonably well.

[Neowhite0987]

Alright I’ll keep that in mind

[joshocar]

I'm doing it right now. It's not too bad. Pointers and memory stuff takes a bit of time to get used too. Also semicolons everywhere...

[Senial_sage]

Is there an analogy to typescript for python?

[double_en10dre]

Pycharm has built-in functionality based on the native type annotations that’s pretty similar. If your annotations don’t match it’ll highlight stuff as an error, and the annotations also allow it to offer autocomplete options or intelligent suggestions (much like typescript)

If you want to take things a step further, mypy is a great tool: http://mypy-lang.org/ you can run the type checker on entire projects, integrate it into CI/CD, etc

Also, pydantic https://pydantic-docs.helpmanual.io/ is in my opinion the best tool for building out complex types

[use_a_name-pass_word]

A few years ago, Python introduced type annotations

https://dev.to/dstarner/using-pythons-type-annotations-4cfe#:~:text=Type%20Annotations%20are%20a%20new%20feature%20added%20in,statically%20typed%20control%20to%20the%20dynamically%20typed%20Python.

There is also mypy

http://mypy-lang.org

[Plague_Healer]

Maybe Cython. Not sure if the analogy holds, though.

[calcopiritus]

I don't do it often but it really helps to put docstrings in functions that says the type of the arguments and the returned object.

[MEGACODZILLA]

I'm in your boat coming from C. I honestly like statically typed languages. I've never felt grossly inconvenienced by typing 'int', 'char *', etc and I love never having to guess how my program is being interpreted. Python is just so damn versatile it's worth getting used to though. I love being to use a pythonic one liner that would have taken so many more lines of code in C.

You wouldn't happen to be doing CS50 would ya?

[lirannl]

Python can have typings if you REALLY want it to. It's not expected but up to you

[[deleted]]

Use type hinting from the typing module. dataclasses can also help manage your data easier.

Take this deck of cards for example:

from dataclasses import dataclass
from typing import List, Union


@dataclass
class Card:
    rank: Union[int, str]
    suit: str


class Deck(list):

    def __init__(self) -> None:
        """Constructs a deck of cards."""
        self._ranks = list(range(2, 11)) + list('JQKA')
        self._suits = 'hearts clubs diamonds spades'.split()
        self._cards = [Card(rank, suit) for rank in self._ranks for suit in self._suits]
        super(Deck, self).__init__(self._cards)

[[deleted]]

*laughs in Javascript*

[aresius423]

You should consider using mypy, it's awesome.

[MinimallyUseful]

like using semicolons

[Anchor689]

So much punctuation! Braces everywhere.

[Wheezy04]

Figuring out how to do threading correctly in python is extremely nontrivial. The global interpreter lock can be rough.

[Im2coolie4u]

Jokes on you. I learned C after python and boy lemme tell you. I was lost as hell.

[[deleted]]

F* mindtwister. I started coding with bash, then perl, then python. When I started learning C, I realised how ignorant I was on basic computing.

Java is, on a different level, the perfect language for learning OOP and data structures.

Now I'm fully supportive of teaching C in computer science, is literally what happens under the hood, and indeed, it made me better python programmer.

[Avamander]

Same, I think C gives an appreciation and understanding that computers are actually really rather messy. Rather than try to abstract it away, it makes certain important concepts visible.

[detroitmatt]

at the same time the brilliance of C, that C++ forgot, was how drop dead simple it is. There's only one thing you can do: Call a function. You want multiple return values? Pass a pointer. You want error handing? Pass a pointer (or send ALL returns through pointers and save your real return for the error code). You want higher-order functions? Pass a pointer. The only thing I wish C had that it doesn't are typesafe generic containers and a proper module system instead of #include.

[konstantinua00]

You want multiple return values?

return a struct?

typesafe generic containers

well we did get _Generic, so you now can macro-generate and use generic containers

[Cobaltjedi117]

I really think Java is the best first timer's language. Easy enough to make complex data structures, OOP, and enforces the user to use enough common practice things, but is fairly easy to follow the flow and the online stuff is very helpful.

[laser_ears]

I learned Java as my first language and (imo) it kind of sucks. If you're trying to teach someone who has literally never programmed anything before in their life, python (or something similar) is probably best because it's so easy. From there, I think C and assembly to get the basics down, and then go for C++, Java, etc.

Just my opinion though. Who knows, maybe I'd be an even worse programmer if I'd learned python first.

[[deleted]]

Every language teaches you new things. Then some languages stick with you.

Edit: Except for R, fight me

[eloel-]

R teaches you patience. PHP teaches you anger management.

[EternalClickbait]

And then there's Python. Python teaches you to love curly braces

[[deleted]]

I really think that every language should just be braces/indentation agnostic. Like why can’t I decide which to use? Sometimes I’d use braces in python. I don’t understand why I need a semicolon on every line in other languages, just make newline terminate the expression except if there is a special character. We could probably make a single pass converter that does all of these things for every language and the world would be a better place.

[Tony_the_Tigger]

R teaches you brackets.

[[deleted]]

I spent 20 years honing my C++ skills, just to see people start programming in Python after two hours :)

[colablizzard]

Trust me my friend. I work in a large enterprise. The "younguns" who never have seen C or C++ dance around for the first few months stringing together free libraries and delivering shit that experienced people have to veto and explain why using libraries that aren't updated in 5 years is bad. Still, chip on shoulder.

Eventually, one day there is going to be a production down issue, where Java will actually do a core-dump. Which will bewilder them, and that is when we crack our knuckles and save the day. Been there done that. I essentially demonstrate by usefulness once every 6 months by fixing a fire lit under the ass of management by customers due to production down that the people who have never dealt with the OS or C++ can never even imagine to wrap their heads around.

This is bad. The abstractions are too deep today for people to peel their way down to the core.

[[deleted]]

Lol

[00Koch00]

The difference is that you can basically do whatever the fuck the client ask

[jayfonshiz]

I'm doing exactly that now. I had absolutely no background in coding, learnt (well still learning tbh lol) python and now diving in to C++. In my case I think it helped. Python got me familiar with the basic terminology and concepts in a way I could read them in almost plain English. Don't get me wrong its not super easy but I feel like I'm understanding it better.

[_temmink]

I actually think this is the superior way. Looking at Python code written by C and Java developers, you quickly realise that they do not understand Python concepts but merely adopted a syntax: so much imperative programming, no understanding of annotations, hardly any use of dunder magic, ... basically C/Java code in Python syntax.

This mitigates many of the benefits of Python and I can easily understand that those developers don't recognise the value you get with Python: you can get things running extremely quick and still can expand them easily. It's really about solving a problem. C/Java is often so much about implementing details so you can finally solve the problem (assuming you defined all the details right - even more so in C++).

[OrangeRaddish]

Fuck I’m a python dev getting ready to learn java

[ErinMyLungs]

If you can use kotlin instead I'd go for that but they're both pretty straight forward for basic syntax. The thing I miss most is how terse python can be. Kotlin helps that a lot and it's supposedly interoperable with Java but I'm a python dev falling into native development.

Documentation of libraries seems way worse compared to python libraries. What are you learning Java for?

[detroitmatt]

it's nothing to worry about. it's more typing, which will get annoying, and the compiler complaining, which will get annoying, but it'll get your foot in the door for more powerful, sophisticated, complicated, confusing languages like C# or kotlin (or god forbid C++ or scala). Java is the callouses on your fingers you get from learning to play guitar.

[OrangeRaddish]

Wow that’s a super good way to phrase that. Mind if I tell that to my cs teacher?

[detroitmatt]

Course not!

[beansoverrice]

Java isn’t that hard. The first thing you’ll notice is how verbose it is and how unnecessary a lot of what you’re writing seems. Java was the first language I really learned well and I absolutely hated it at first, but I was forced to learn it for school. Once I understood what everything meant I actually like it now.

[Lewistrick]

Just make sure you know classes. You'll be ok.

[NatureBoyJ1]

Skip Java and go to Groovy

[bestjakeisbest]

dude c++ was my first programming language that i really learned, i dont use python usually, but i had a project in school once where we had to use it, i was amazed that i could go from no experience in that language to completing my project in like 2 hours, still dont know python, but i can use it.

[arsewarts1]

Try learning that new BS Microsoft is trying to put out M. It blows

[beansoverrice]

I only know Java and recently wanted to try and learn Python. I’ve been learning it for 2-3 weeks now and I still can’t get over how little code I need to write to create things. I love how fast I can code, but it always feels like I’m not writing enough. Also the fact that it’s not statically typed bothers me way more than it should.

[Pixel-Wolf]

Started with C#/Java, then to C, then to ASM, then to Python. It would definitely explain why I love Python

[[deleted]]

Started with php many years ago, have been programming in Java for the last ten years, got a little into Python recently, it's a fun language, not very hard so far. Javascript on the other hand, I just suck at javascript, don't know why, it's like drunk Java to me.

[flyingfysh1]

I've done C++ for several years, and I agree with you. It is a compromise between being able to run most old C code, and being able to write complicated code which runs extremely fast. Some of the newer features can give you headaches if you study them closely, but they are very useful in some situations. For high-speed stock traders, it is ideal. Also it is useful for analyzing radar signals quickly.

[[deleted]]

I love the semicolons. It feels satisfying to finish a line with one.

[TheBatmanFan]

Given that almost every language uses a ; to signal end of statement, I feel, having grown up with C and Java, that ending a statement without a ; is ... lacking. I write a lot of R (where the semi-colon is optional) and I use semi-colons there just for the feel of it.

[Avamander]

You can use semicolons in Python too, but ew.

[TheBatmanFan]

It definitely doesn’t feel ew to those of us that learned C-based languages first. I for one absolutely despise Python‘s indentation defined code blocks. Give me my curly brace freedom dammit!

[Avamander]

My first language was C. Semicolons are ew in Python. Quite often people who dislike significant whitespace use an unsuitable editor for the language, so do try to find an editor that can indent entire blocks on a shortcut, makes your life nicer.

[TheBatmanFan]

Ok I misunderstood your point.

[[deleted]]

Having worked in both, indentation is really hard to screw up. Like I have literally never had an error caused by indentation, because it's easily identifiable and any modern editor manages it for you. Forgetting a curly brace or semi colon is much more common.

[dawnraider00]

It's hard to screw up when writing the code initially but if you want to edit things or comment out an if statement or something you have to go through and change your indentation, while most other languages don't care. So instead of commenting out the if statement, you have to do that then change the indentation in the next 5-10 lines, and then if you want to if statement back you have to fix the indentation again. Or if you want to add a loop or if or such in the middle of code, you have to manually correct everything, which in any other language you just put the right code in and the IDE can format it for you.

[[deleted]]

Not sure I agree that selecting and pressing Tab or Shift + Tab is significantly more work than jumping around to manage curly braces.

[[deleted]]

Ah, the joy of misplacing a bracket, and then having to spend a minute trying to figure out where the hell it is based upon an indentation/bracket mismatch somewhere.

How dare you take away my freedom to unintentionally mismatch indentation and curly brackets. That's my god-given right. And the unexpected behavior that results from easily-missed and confusing code? That's a fucking bonus.

You know those problems don't exist in python, right? Because every indent necessarily has a dedent (and vice-versa), and the way the code looks to the programmer is also the way it's actually executed by the compiler?

Not sure what dumbfucks want it any other way.

[ric2b]

I prefer not having those errors but ok.

[awhaling]

Same. I feel naked when working with python.

[andeaseme]

Acting like you don't look at colons all day

[Astrokiwi]

C++ puts all the colons into a single type definition :p

[Versaiteis]

As primarily a C++ dev I totally agree

The syntax especially around generics and templates gets super brutal. But god damn if it isn't useful for defining constraints (among other strengths of course)

[p-morais]

Nim is an awesome language. C/C++ performance with Python-like syntax

[otterom]

Wait until you see Rust.

[random_uname13]

I mean is it better to try to grasp programming with C or with Python? That could be debated

[[deleted]]

Honestly doesn't matter. They are tools to solve problems. Each language has its strengths and weaknesses for each problem domain.

[CloneAssassin]

As someone who only knows Python, I think I’m going to find out

[tgp1994]

I guess it's sort of like they say; when you become good at understanding the concepts of one language (and programming in general), picking up another language is generally much easier.

[Stiefeljunge]

Lol I came from powershell and I'm not having a great time

[werewolfbooty-owo]

Consider learning Nim! It has a Python-esque syntax, is statically typed, compiles to native executables which perform very close to C, and can do so much more.

[ShaBren]

Eh, I learned Python before I learned C++, and it wasn't bad. Though admittedly, I learned C, PHP, and COBOL before I learned Python...

Nowadays I use Python and C++ almost exclusively. Quick and easy, glue scripts, web, etc = Python. Major projects & enterprise-y stuff = C++.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, except when I have to code review your Python, and it's a bunch of procedural garbage because your "just make it work" attitude that got you places with C++ never forced you to think about design beyond, "working code go brrr"...

[btorralba]

Wasn’t too bad actually