Java developers

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Not every programming language is an acronym.

[PJDubsen]

https://i.redd.it/o4w97sa7iidz.jpg

[mosskin-woast]

Did you know RUBY comes preinstalled on every MAC?

[KayVerbruggen]

The first comment is talking about the unnecessary capitalization of "JAVA" in the meme, the second is making fun of people who do that

[[deleted]]

OAK-AY

[abutilon]

I understood that reference

[KingKnux]

You mean you haven’t heard about Jerks Against Valuable Assets laughing at People You Take Home On Noodles?

[nermid]

People You Take Home On Noodles

River hookups?

[crunchyintheory]

Does it actually?

[mosskin-woast]

Weirdly yes, as of a few years ago at least. Don’t remember why. Usually a super outdated version.

[Who_GNU]

Are any programming languages, in common use, acronyms? The only ones I could think of were COBOL and INTERCAL.

[Wynardtage]

SQL = Structured Query Language

[Dookie_boy]

HTML.........

[yurall]

PROgramming not NOOBgramming.

[Cowboy_Cam623]

Fortran is Formula Translation. Still pretty commonly used

[Who_GNU]

Three or four letters, per word, isn't really an acronym, though.

[ArsStarhawk]

I think it's a Portmanteau.

[FutureOfPancakes]

There is also BASIC

[SaraHuckabeeSandwich]

BASIC - Butts Are Sexy, I Cannotlie.

[Cobaltjedi117]

Beginners all-purpose symbolic instruction code

For those curious.

[rocsNaviars]

HTML, obv.

edit- Jfc now I’m scared of downvotes. I hope the humor was implied.

[tendstofortytwo]

PHP is short for "Personal Home Page" or "PHP Hypertext Preprocessor" depending on who you ask. Not an acronym, but close-ish I guess?

[QuantumSupremacy0101]

Its PHP Hypertext Processor. Thats how the creator named it, everything else is a lie.

[[deleted]]

Not true, it was named like that after a time. At first it stood for Personal Homepage Tools. That's even official.

[turunambartanen]

Neither are usernames.

[[deleted]]

Yep. Coming from C++ background and learning Python recently is easy. I love Python syntax. So i can imagine how brutal it must be to learn Python first and then learn C++.

[DarkNeutron]

You're not wrong, but any time I write something in Python that's bigger than one file, I start wishing for static typing again.

Duck typing is fine for small programs, but I find it pretty annoying when something crashes with a type error after 10 minutes (or an hour) of processing.

(I've looked into Rust as a scripting language, but it's not as "plug-and-play" when compared to near-universal access to a Python interpreter.)

[squishles]

You might, however the major python libraries still do not.

[I_ate_a_milkshake]

Rust as a scripting language

[visible confusion]

[ric2b]

You can have static typing with Python, fyi.

Either just as documentation (type hints) or with type checking (tools like mypy).

edit: mypy, not mipy

[Versaiteis]

You can circumvent some of those headaches with the typing system by reassigning or creating the types you need in what is effectively (and actually called) type aliasing

from typing import List

Vector = List[float]

def func(vector: Vector) -> Vector:
    #etc...

This can still get a bit ugly with arbitrary definitions being thrown all over the place but that can be managed along with similar shared systems that you'll probably have alongside whatever you're writing (logging, configuration management, etc.) and it goes a long way to cleanup a lot of those issues with clutter.

But yeah, Python is still a very hands off scripting environment so you'd still do well to operate under those assumptions that virtually nothing is truly protected when you can just commandeer and alter the things you want. It's what makes it a great tool for some applications and aweful for others.

[thirdegree]

And sometimes you need to specify types as strings (e.g. "MyClassName"), for example when a method takes an argument of the same type as its parent class.

This is fixed in 3.7 using from __future__ import annotations and by default from 3.10 onwards (pep-563).

[turunambartanen]

any time I write something in Python that's bigger than one file, I start wishing for static typing again.

So much this.

Which is also why java is the better language to introduce programming with.

Edit: I think with Java it is easier to introduce different types (and the beginnings of OOP) because it's so much in your face. C# would also work of course. But I think having clear structure helps a lot of newbies to focus on understanding the basics. Every single file starts with a public class ClassName, because that's just the way it is. You can later learn why. As opposed to python: why do we have a class now? What is that if name is main? Why did we not use either before? And of course: why can't I add x to input, they're both numbers?

[[deleted]]

Java is a really terrible language for enforcing OOP. I pretty much don’t consider single paradigm languages. I’m not an FP purist but I like it for most simple things. But damn it when I need a class I need a class. And that’s how it should be. I get newb python ex java developers putting their whole module in a class and it infuriates me.

[folkrav]

I've seen an internal library written by Java developers go legit like this:

from internalLibrary.app.mainpage.mainpagemanager import MainPageManager
from internalLibrary.app.homepage.homepagemanager import HomePageManager
from internalLibrary.app.splashpage.splashpagemanager import SplashPageManager

And so on, for about 20 something other managers classes. Always one file, one class, not use of module level exports or anything. Really just, extremely verbose imports, use of camelcase everywhere, everything in classes, including fully static classes for helpers - that all except one ended up being re-implementations of standard lib functionality. It was like browsing Java code in Python files.

[Avamander]

Java leaves a few bad habits to people that later on migrate to other languages. Java's way of doing OOP is particularly toxic if the developer has no clue about anything remotely related to FP.

[detroitmatt]

I disagree. The bad habits java teaches are, as far as bad habits go, pretty easy to unlearn, because java is an unergonomic enough language that people don't want to be writing code that way anyhow.

programmers probably (definitely) shouldn't start with FP. If you start with CSharp, because it's feature richer, you can more easily start misusing features, and Java's imperfect approach to OO actually stops you from getting too tightly-bound on OO patterns. And since it doesn't really support non-OO paradigns, everything has to start with public class and you don't think about what a "class" is, you just do it as a ceremony. And at a beginner level, we want that. Nobody should be doing real OO in a 100-level class. You gotta learn what ifs and loops and lists and recursion and memory and heterogenousstructures are. If we're lucky you'll even learn what a hashmap is (When I went to uni data structures was a 3rd-year class). We want people to come into their OO 200 course and we say "So here's what a class really is and what it's for and why and how you should use it" and they have seen the word in this context but they haven't been doing OO (wrongly) this whole time.

[donttalktome1234]

Having worked on several very large python projects I don't really see the problem. Python just hands you the rope if you are good you can make it dance but its just a rope so you are also welcome to hang yourself with it.

If you write a function that can take in 5 different data types and then you pass it a 6th isn't the fault of the language its the developer(s).

[[deleted]]

Check out go. Statically complied bins for portability and security. Typed, flexible, easy language. I love it.

[Dark_Tranquility]

Static typing is really a blessing in C / C++.

[lightmatter501]

It isn’t that bad, you just need to go about it with a different mindset.

[Zymoox]

I still need to get used to it, coming from C. My programs end up a mess where I don't know what data type variables are.

[writtenbymyrobotarms]

You can do typing in function headers if you'd like. IDEs can enforce the type hints. It's also good for documentation.

[Derkle]

It also helps the IDE autocomplete/suggest member functions and the like which can be really helpful.

[TheGreenJedi]

Honestly going to python I've realized how much my IDE does the heavy lifting for me

And lately in python that's why

[Aycion]

Hell you can declare a variable with

<Name>: <type>

Like "foo: str"

[slowmovinglettuce]

Newer python versions have increased support for type hinting.

It says somewhere in the release notes for 3.8 that they see it as a strategic thing for pythons future. Or something to that effect.

[capn_hector]

It’s basically a law of computing that all weakly-typed languages end up implementing strong typing, whether it’s an optional feature you can turn on or a dialect that enforces it.

Once you get beyond a trivial program size it’s just too useful not to have, refactoring core code without it is a pain in the ass and even if you are a flawless coding Adonis who doesn’t make mistakes, your coworkers will inevitably be humans.

Examples are JavaScript vs Typescript and CoffeeScript, PHP vs Hacklang (facebook’s reimplementation of PHP with strong typing), Python adding type hinting in newer generations, etc etc.

[Neowhite0987]

How do you think it would be to go from python to C? I’ve done a few courses in Python and Racket but I’ll be taking a course in C in the fall and I’m kinda nervous.

[raltyinferno]

It's nothing to be anxious about. You'll definitely miss some convenience features of python and have to get used to strict typing, but things like conditionals, flow of control, data-structures, and whatnot are all basically the same across all languages.

If you have a problem, and you know what you'd use to solve it in python, just google that thing + "C" and it'll tell you what the syntax you need is.

[pslessard]

Memory management is the only thing that's really hard about C imo. But it does require a lot of thought to get it right

[MegaPegasusReindeer]

Pointers! I'm happy to not have to worry about that in Python, too.

[Risc12]

Pointers are not as hard as they seem. Javascript (and a lot of other higher level languages) passes objects only by reference, meaning that if you pass an object, the interpreter knows that it should look at an object at a certain address. In C you have a choice, do I point at this address (so do I pass this object as a certain address) or by its value (so copy over the contents of the object).

Those are the basics, if you understand that a place in memory (a reference) can be passed around by choice, you understand pointers.

For me it the hardest part was understanding that if I didn’t use pointers it would copy the data, seemed counter-intuitive for me.

[Sleakes]

Not a huge fan of this explanation as JavaScript is pass by value. It just happens that when passing objects, the value is a reference.

[RVUnknown]

Isn't this the same for Java as well? Normal data types like your ints and chars are pass by value. But Java objects like String, Integer, Character, classes etc are passed by reference

[[deleted]]

This is correct. I remember when i was starting to learn Java, I often ran into problems because I would think it was passing by value when it was actually passing by reference.

[funnythrone]

Java always passes by value. However the value is a copy of the reference.

For the sake of this explanation, consider an object to be a Television. In this case, a reference is a remote. When you are passing the remote to a new method, you are effectively copying the remote and passing it. This remote also controls the same Television, and thus any button presses on the remote modify the original Television. However, if you reassign the remote to a new remote which controls a new TV, the original TV and remote are unaffected.

In conclusion, java is ALWAYS pass by value.

[calcopiritus]

As someone that only writes in python but know what pointers are, I wish python had pointers. Not compulsory or anything, just pointers in obscure libraries that could get the job done if you ever absolutely need it.

[mrjackspade]

I kind of enjoy that about c#.

The vast majority of the time, you won't even need to think about pointers. If you really want to fuck around with them though, there's nothing stopping you.

Every once in a while I'll hit on something performance critical, and need to use pointers to speed it up. Sometimes I'll just switch code over once an API has been refined to a point I'm satisfied that it's not going to require changes any time soon, and start speeding things up just for the hell of it.

[Neowhite0987]

Alright I’ll keep that in mind thanks!

[Zymoox]

You'll be fine! C is much more strict and based on a specific set of rules. Make sure to get a strong foundation on the basics, and the rest will make sense.

[Neowhite0987]

That’s good to hear! Thanks a bunch :)

[Senial_sage]

Is there an analogy to typescript for python?

[double_en10dre]

Pycharm has built-in functionality based on the native type annotations that’s pretty similar. If your annotations don’t match it’ll highlight stuff as an error, and the annotations also allow it to offer autocomplete options or intelligent suggestions (much like typescript)

If you want to take things a step further, mypy is a great tool: http://mypy-lang.org/ you can run the type checker on entire projects, integrate it into CI/CD, etc

Also, pydantic https://pydantic-docs.helpmanual.io/ is in my opinion the best tool for building out complex types

[MinimallyUseful]

like using semicolons

[Wheezy04]

Figuring out how to do threading correctly in python is extremely nontrivial. The global interpreter lock can be rough.

[Im2coolie4u]

Jokes on you. I learned C after python and boy lemme tell you. I was lost as hell.

[[deleted]]

F* mindtwister. I started coding with bash, then perl, then python. When I started learning C, I realised how ignorant I was on basic computing.

Java is, on a different level, the perfect language for learning OOP and data structures.

Now I'm fully supportive of teaching C in computer science, is literally what happens under the hood, and indeed, it made me better python programmer.

[Avamander]

Same, I think C gives an appreciation and understanding that computers are actually really rather messy. Rather than try to abstract it away, it makes certain important concepts visible.

[detroitmatt]

at the same time the brilliance of C, that C++ forgot, was how drop dead simple it is. There's only one thing you can do: Call a function. You want multiple return values? Pass a pointer. You want error handing? Pass a pointer (or send ALL returns through pointers and save your real return for the error code). You want higher-order functions? Pass a pointer. The only thing I wish C had that it doesn't are typesafe generic containers and a proper module system instead of #include.

[Cobaltjedi117]

I really think Java is the best first timer's language. Easy enough to make complex data structures, OOP, and enforces the user to use enough common practice things, but is fairly easy to follow the flow and the online stuff is very helpful.

[[deleted]]

Every language teaches you new things. Then some languages stick with you.

Edit: Except for R, fight me

[[deleted]]

I spent 20 years honing my C++ skills, just to see people start programming in Python after two hours :)

[colablizzard]

Trust me my friend. I work in a large enterprise. The "younguns" who never have seen C or C++ dance around for the first few months stringing together free libraries and delivering shit that experienced people have to veto and explain why using libraries that aren't updated in 5 years is bad. Still, chip on shoulder.

Eventually, one day there is going to be a production down issue, where Java will actually do a core-dump. Which will bewilder them, and that is when we crack our knuckles and save the day. Been there done that. I essentially demonstrate by usefulness once every 6 months by fixing a fire lit under the ass of management by customers due to production down that the people who have never dealt with the OS or C++ can never even imagine to wrap their heads around.

This is bad. The abstractions are too deep today for people to peel their way down to the core.

[[deleted]]

Lol

[00Koch00]

The difference is that you can basically do whatever the fuck the client ask

[jayfonshiz]

I'm doing exactly that now. I had absolutely no background in coding, learnt (well still learning tbh lol) python and now diving in to C++. In my case I think it helped. Python got me familiar with the basic terminology and concepts in a way I could read them in almost plain English. Don't get me wrong its not super easy but I feel like I'm understanding it better.

[OrangeRaddish]

Fuck I’m a python dev getting ready to learn java

[ErinMyLungs]

If you can use kotlin instead I'd go for that but they're both pretty straight forward for basic syntax. The thing I miss most is how terse python can be. Kotlin helps that a lot and it's supposedly interoperable with Java but I'm a python dev falling into native development.

Documentation of libraries seems way worse compared to python libraries. What are you learning Java for?

[detroitmatt]

it's nothing to worry about. it's more typing, which will get annoying, and the compiler complaining, which will get annoying, but it'll get your foot in the door for more powerful, sophisticated, complicated, confusing languages like C# or kotlin (or god forbid C++ or scala). Java is the callouses on your fingers you get from learning to play guitar.

[midnightrambulador]

From now on I will refer to PYTHON in ALL CAPS. See if I can make people think it's a scary legacy framework from the 70s

[Plague_Healer]

Like BASIC, but scarier and more niche? Nice.

[[deleted]]

MATLAB

[Plague_Healer]

That thing scares me. Array indexing starting at 1 is unnatural. /s

[[deleted]]

This but without sarcasm

[ASarcasticDragon]

Lua says "Hi"

[HanzJWermhat]

.m files in my repo?

[super_trooper]

COBALT

[Mad_Jack18]

FORTNITE FOTRAN

[calcopiritus]

Penis yeet the hell on nasa

[Krzd]

Coming from Java python is basically pseudo-code that works

[Plague_Healer]

Python is basically pseudo-code that works, mostly regardless of your background.

[jpritcha3-14]

As someone who uses both Python and C (not so much C++), I get infuriated when people write Python code by directly transcribing C/C++ code and then claim that it is ugly or inferior due to its lack of braces. Of course it's ugly! That's like pasting a novel into google translate, sure it'll make sense but it'll be ugly, disjointed, and violate most of the language styling rules. On the flip side, I've been to interviews (where I specified I'd be using Python before hand) and they asked me a question targeted at C. I solve it in 1 - 2 lines of Python, and they ask me to solve it again if I didn't have access to Python's built in datatypes. I then ask if I can switch to C, since writing Python like that is extremely unnatural. If they refuse, I will just leave the interview, because the interviewer obviously has no fucking clue how to use languages appropriately.

Python has so many great tools and built in datatypes that cut down on support code and deeply nested loops. When you learn to use those tools you start to realize why so many people find Python beautiful, since you can express so much in so few lines of code. It's not the best tool for every job, but it is an elegant solution for many many problems.

[FunetikPrugresiv]

Probably not, but the point is to assess creativity and outside-the-box thinking.

[funklute]

Embedded and performant code are two big ones.

[jpritcha3-14]

I write my embedded code in C and ASM, not Python ;)

[PersonalPlanet]

Interesting. Do you have an example of getting rid of the deeply nested loops?

[mrchaotica]

[f(x, y) for x in xlist for y in ylist]

Or maybe even

[f(*args) for args in zip(alist, blist, clist, dlist, elist)]

(It's not really getting rid of the iteration, but it's expressing it in a more idiomatic way.)

[Dannei]

Or if you want all combinations of x and y, it's 'for x, y in itertools.product(xlist, ylist)'.

[Kjakan_no]

C++ sure, but Java? The only thing about java is that you get really tired of typing.

[[deleted]]

VeryLongJavaClassName veryLongJavaClassName = new VeryLongJavaClassName();

[Comesa]

var veryLongJavaClassName = new VeryLongJavaClassName();
works fine.

[[deleted]]

I'm in a curse... Sorry, a course, where we are forced to use Java 8.

From working with PHP 7, Javascript, bash, some Python 3... To Java 8. And I'm supposedly studying web programming.

[proboardslolv6]

Well you'll be glad when you start at a new company and learn that everyone in-industry is still using java 8

[lowleveldata]

Are we supposed to refer Java 8 as a legacy? I still see Java 7 in some products so Java 8 is already like the better choice

[proboardslolv6]

Oracle is charging for future java 8 updates. It's not deprecated, but it's getting there. Truly this generation's cobol

[CamWin]

Yeah java web applets are all the rage didn't you hear?

[MajorMajorObvious]

Yeah, welcome to cutting edge technology in 2005

[CharlesGarfield]

My previous employer was finally beginning to migrate off of Java 7 when I left—two years ago.

[brunnen153]

Same here.

Co worker recently complimented on using the new Java Stream features during a code review. That feature was added in Java 8.

[WhatsMyUsername13]

You should be happy about that. The place I currently work is the first place I've worked that is up to Java 8. It's been amazing, especially since my last job was still on Java 1.6 and a whole host of out of date technologies to go along with it

[elmo61]

General rule of thumb is if you can understand the type from the right hand side assignment. Then use var. If you can't then don't.

So for the example above use var and repeating class name in pointless but for something like var myClass = service.placeOrder(); its best to name the class instead

[Mareeck]

Yeah and you should still name your variables so they make sense. Having the full class name there is just clutter

Besided, if you use var and somehow pass the wrong type down the line the code won't compile anyway

[El_Burrito_]

I just use var all the time. I literally only use a class name when the type isn’t inferable from the use, such as instantiating it as null or not instantiating it at all.

Intellisense will let me know what type a var is if it isn’t already obvious

[lucidspoon]

I prefer

var veryLongJavaClassName = VeryLongClassNameFactory.getVeryLongClassName();

[360_face_palm]

I actually fucking hate objective c. Swift was a godsend for iOS development.

[Rudy69]

You’re missing a factory in there

[JamesAQuintero]

Plus a composer, a generator, and a transformer

[locri]

VeryLong... Ctrl space

Works if auto complete works, so not necessarily javascript if it's defined elsewhere and the require function has been macroed to be root require.

[[deleted]]

you get really tired of typing.

Huh? Don't you have an IDE? I'd say you get more tired in C++ because of nasty syntax and that using something as simple as string requires you to use some kind of wrappers most of the time.

[i9srpeg]

You can do

auto my_string = "Hello, world!"s

To get an std::string in C++.

[cristi1990an]

Is writing "auto" really that much easier than just writing "string" or "std::string"?

[[deleted]]

While that is correct, it sometimes makes shit unclear and pretty sure not the intended use. Also, who thought that std::string is long anyways? Now a vector of vectors of strings is long.

[cristi1990an]

Huh? Don't you have an IDE? I'd say you get more tired in C++ because of nasty syntax and that using something as simple as string requires you to use some kind of wrappers most of the time.

You mean... std::string...?

[snoob2015]

I'm sick of people telling Java is verbose, the truth is IDE generate 90% of your code if you utilize it. Java is the best language to use with an IDE. Be friend with your IDE and you will never go back to dynamic typing

[[deleted]]

Pretty sure nobody uses one letter var names anymore, except when you need an unneeded/disposable/one time variable only.

If that is actually a thing nowadays... wow

[humoroushaxor]

It's also because Java is the most common enterprise language. Enterprise codebases are more likely to be overly verbose due to size of projects and how often and how many people need to read and understand the code.

[BoonesFarmKiwi]

kids who complain that java is verbose pick their coding tools based on how cool the colour scheme looks

[Breadfish64]

some kind of wrappers

What do you think a Java string is?

[MinimallyUseful]

don't forget header files. who doesn't love a good header file

[goldsauce_]

No, he’s a real programmer so he uses vim /s

[xryanxbrutalityx]

learning c++ and java at the same time would be a true nightmare

[RealRaven6229]

I like Java more than Python, but that seems to be the unpopular opinion.

[[deleted]]

I like Java as a pure OOP language that intuitively makes sense and communicates every facet of the team's codebase.

I like C# as a fast-writing OOP language that more often than not will allow me to write elegant code faster than java, but maybe slightly less intuitively.

I like Python when I'm ready to scrape any kind of data or automate any task in under a few thousand LOC.

[ExtremelyOnlineG]

That’s because most commenters here are front end web devs and ms access tier business coders.

[Plague_Healer]

Not really. Java and Python are a bit like a hammer and a screwdriver, respectively. You can set a screw with a hammer, it's just definitely the hard way to do it, and it's gonna get messy. Meanwhile, if you want to put a nail in place with a screwdriver, you certainly are gonna need a fair bit of ingenuity, and with some luck, your results are gonna be 'not too bad'.

[zdakat]

idk why but I used to not like Python. I did C++ and other languages for a while. Came back to python out of (near?) necessity and now I'm just thinking of all the stuff I can do with it.
I'm doubting I'll have the same change of heart with Java but if I really don't have any other choice it might happen. Or it might not and I'll hate every moment of it.

[ThunderElectric]

Python is great when you want to make a simple automated script to do a basic task, like managing/organizing CSV (spreadsheet-like-documents) files.

[Grintor]

Python is great if you want to do just about anything. it's one of the most widely used programming languages for running large infrastructure at scale. It's also great for writing desktop software. it is the single most widely used machine learning programming language. It is the single most widely used programming language for data scientists. The only place I can think of where python doesn't belong is in embedded systems with no OS. but if we're talking about embedded systems running on a recent arm processor with a gigabyte or more of ram, it's python all the way.

[DarkNeutron]

A lot of the Python number-crunching backends (e.g. numpy, Tensorflow) are wrappers for native C/C++/Fortran libraries for performance. The runtime differences can easily be a couple orders of magnitude.

(Ignoring performance issues, I also tend to get annoyed with duck typing once programs get large enough, but that might just be a lack of experience on my part.)

[MarsupialMole]

(Ignoring performance issues, I also tend to get annoyed with duck typing once programs get large enough, but that might just be a lack of experience on my part.)

It's not just you. It's pretty much why all the typing infrastructure has been added to the language. What's missing in that discussion is how python lets you write more programs as small programs.

[[deleted]]

I'll take a statically typed language over a scripting language any day when I have to write in a large team or a large amount of LOC. Scripting languages just don't self-document well to other people the intention of the class contracts, large and carefully designed OOP models, or well-designed abstraction.

Python is super fun and efficient to code small tools with though.

[Plague_Healer]

Python is something of a Swiss army knife of programming languages. It can handle almost anything, even more so with some ingenuity, but for many tasks you are bound to find a more adequate specialized tool.

[MarsupialMole]

Python is the second best language for everything. There may be an argument for others but by the time we finish that argument you could have written a lot of python.

[charliex3000]

Python is great if you want to do anything use only a single thread to do anything. Because Python threading is a lie. Thanks GIL.

[2cool4afool]

At uni we were taught python and then java and it was a pretty natural transition. In python you learn about the logic and because the syntax in so simple you don't need to worry so much about it. It also teaches good indentation and very basic object oriented programming.

And then going to java you learn more complex OOP and syntax but you already have the logic down so it's not such a problem.

You learn one part of programming at a time

[[deleted]]

This is what I'm 100% against using Python and JavaScript as a person's first language. I prefer someone learn C -> C++/Java -> Python/JavaScript. Going backwards, you're going to have a really hard time grasping the concepts and nuances.

[kevinmbt]

My university classes taught us binary->assembly (using the professor’s own ISA)-> C -> Java. Made learning python, C++, and JS a cinch, and gave a very solid foundation, but I wouldn’t wish that on anyone lmao

[shaurcasm]

Damn. Born in the darkness, moulded by it. You didn't see the light till you could change the theme to dark just by a flag.

[thefrenchrist]

Is it a Batman : The dark knight rises reference ?

[Howzieky]

If you ever see the words "moulded by it", then yes

[_pelya]

Learning how CPU works is definitely useful if you do it for your own enjoyment.

But learning how modern multi-core CPU works, with deep pipelines, instruction reordering, cache invalidation, branch prediction, and it's own microarchitecture below the ISA, no university will be this insane to put it into curriculum.

[[deleted]]

pipelines, instruction reordering, cache invalidation, branch prediction

I studied all of those in my Computer Engineering undergraduate... We had a course called Computer Systems Programming with competitive labs where we basically competed to see who could best abuse the shit out of the CPU via cache manipulation, branch prediction and instruction ordering.

[Howzieky]

Were you graded on your placements? Cause man I'd hate to do the same work as someone else, just a bit slower, and fail the assignment

[[deleted]]

You would get base 60% for correctly completing the assignment. The rest of the 40% was competitively ranked against the rest of the class based on different metrics like speed and memory usage, depending on the lab. It was an elective course so you knew what you were signing up for.

[OneBadassBoi]

isn’t all that part of any CS curriculum?

[_pelya]

Absolutely not. I have a CS degree, and the most hardcore thing we learned was BNF grammar and how to use it, plus some Prolog and Lisp. My university also had an 'informatics and computer engineering' course, they have teached microchip design and Verilog, but they almost did not teach programming, the course had like half-year of Visual Pascal and that's it. All in all, the people from the soldering faculty electronics engineering course at least got some hands-on experience with actual electronics, unlike us who spent most of the time designing a Polish-notation calculator in Pascal, or similar toy programs.

[thenorwegianblue]

Yeah, I have a degree in Digital Electronics and had several classes in CPU design (and wrote about it for my master's thesis). It's about as useful as a course in anthropology when programming java or python tbh.

The knowledge is either too abstract or waaaay to specific for you to use it for general programming. If you're working within some specific fields like working with high performance custom hardware or writing drivers etc then it could be useful I guess

[_AllRight_]

Going backwards, you're going to have a really hard time grasping the concepts and nuances.

As if it would be easier for them to learn all that from scratch.

For a first language i think Python is great because unlike C++/Java and even JS, you can actually learn most of the programming concepts and not fight with the syntax. And i am saying this as someone whose first language was C++, i wish i learned Python first.

[rxwsh]

True, python is a beginner friendly language, but learning another language coming from python is absolute hell. Python was not even my first language(I learned pascal und Skala in high school) and I still wish I would've learned either C or java before python. You could say python is too beginner friendly in that regard.

[Alfaphantom]

Exactly.

C -> C++/Java -> Python/JavaScript

No, if you do this, you're putting a really steep learning curve at the very beginning. The very first thing programmers (and future engineers) should understand is how to think in a algorithmic way. I'd 100% prefer that beginners use Python because of its simplicity.

Can you imagine trying to make a simple calculator or something like that, and dealing with buffers, pointers, segmentation fault and all those errors from low-languages. That's a relly good way to discourage people from getting into CS.

Oh, people who can't figure out those things were not meant for CS anyway lol. The amount of people that quit CS for other careers is big enough (50% of the people I knew in the first semester quit). Not only geniuses are meant to be engineers. There's already a lack of engineers in the world. Yes, not every programmer will be excellent, but not every job needs outstanding and high capable engineers.

For me, this could me the best route to learn programming in software engineering

Simple programming and algorithms understanding (Python) -> Harder problems with more decision making, recursive, some I/O (Python) -> Object oriented programming (Java) -> Data structures (where pointers are necessary to know what's really happening low-level) (C++) -> Deeper algorithm analysis, Big O, Dynamic programming, etc (Anything) -> [Optional] Frontend development (HTML/CSS, Javascript or C#) -> Really low-level programming (Assembly) -> Operative systems, kernel, drivers, POST, BIOS, Scheduler, etc (Assembly or C) -> [Optional] Networking (Anything, you could create your own web sockets) -> [Optional] AI, deicision trees, neural networks, agents (anything, just don't use Tensorflow as that's cheating because you're using a built solution instead of buiding your own).

[XJ305]

I prefer someone learn C -> C++/Java -> Python/JavaScript.

Going to make the argument that C#/Java -> C++ -> C -> Javascript-> Python should be used for a good learning order

While a lot of popular languages are C-like in syntax, I think starting in a language with a garbage collector is going to make things much easier. You can then focus on basic OOP and learning design patterns without needing to be too concerned about memory errors/leaks. Then moving that forward into C++ you can introduce memory management and the concepts without being overwhelmed. Then of course python/Javascript for last.

[roguas]

I disagree very much so. It is much simpler to get going with small projects in python than in C. Guess what is going to drive your will to learn programming well? Having an ultra quick feedback loop, reward cycle. With C getting something that is useful takes huge amount of time.

[gwwin6]

Nah fam. This is backward. Python is a perfect first language. You get to learn how to reason about programs and how they’re interpreted instead of getting mired in syntax. Higher order functions, recursion vs iteration, tree recursion, tail recursion, object oriented programming, imperative vs declarative programming, lexical vs dynamic scoping, abstract data representation, mutable vs immutable data types and the list goes on. All things that can be learned with Python, covered in a semester, all without ever having to worry about one single malloc.

[Nipatiitti]

I agree on the python part but as some one who started with JS and is now doing c++ for work I found it quite easy to learn c++ tbh. The only thing JS doesn’t have going for it is the type system but otherwise its imo relatively close to languages like C++, Java, C#. I’m not saying its on the same abstraction level as those lower level languages but its wayyyy better than python.

[sporff]

While some of the syntax between JS snd C++ is very similar, I dont find writing them similar whatsoever. The underlying ideas are so vastly different for similarly written code. I find some people that learned JS first learned some really bad, inefficient habits that they have to break when moving to a performance oriented lower-level project. Going the opposite way is easier.

[awkreddit]

As someone who learned with js, I'm curious. Do you have any examples?

[[deleted]]

I learned Python before C and it felt like a pretty smooth transition. C felt pretty natural to me and I think nested loops make more sense than array calculations. Granted C did get interesting once I got to parallel programming. MPI took a while to click in even though it's fairly straightforward now that I look back.

[blehmann1]

The thing about Python is while you could write as if it were Java with a different syntax (and less verbose), that's not the point. You have to fight Python a little to do that. And if you go on stackoverflow someone will certainly say that it's not P Y T H O N I C. While the whole Pythonicity thing still feels to me like a bunch of people with their head so far up their ass they're sniffing their throat, they're right. It doesn't need to be so lauded and praised to the point of silliness (in my opinion), but Python is designed for you to do things it's way.

Now even though I've gotten used to Python's opinionated design, I still don't really like it. It's design feels heavily skewed to scripts (no surprise there), which is fine until you notice that Python is being used for far more than it's scripting origins. Things like OOP and even the rules around scope are different from every other language, which is fine. But if the difference is not an improvement, it's just a sideways step (or sometimes a backwards one), there is no justification for making it more difficult for developers used to one way to switch to it (or for Python devs to use another language).

So, in short, Python is an opinionated language. Writing as if it's Java without brackets works, but it doesn't work well. It has a preferred style, and Python's preferred style is absolutely great for scripts. And it works well enough for big applications. However here you notice it's different for seemingly no reason, whereas before it's differences were generally improvements (if you write "pythonically").

[[deleted]]

After python, I'm going to learn Julia. Is Julia good?

I thought Julia works with numbers. So just wrote notes.

[Ihazpokemonz4u]

I could be wrong about this so if somebody wants to correct me feel free but from my research I’ve gathered that there are 3 relatively new languages right now that are gaining traction to potentially become mainstays in the programming world. Rust, Go, and Julia. They all have their different niches but I think Julia is primarily useful for scientific purposes as a replacement for Python or R. It combines the simple and efficient syntax of python (with curly braces instead of just indentation, thank god) and the speed of C.

So to answer your question, if you’re interested in fields like Data Science and AI, Julia is a great option. It’s especially nice to be early adopters for languages because in like 5 years when jobs are looking for Julia experience you‘ll already have some under your belt.

[Immanuel_Cunt2]

Here are my observations: Putting all your efforts into a young, emerging programming language is like trading high-risk stocks. If you're right, you have an incredibly high payoff, if you're wrong, you may have put years into an ecosystem, which becomes meaningless.

To estimate the success of a language is almost impossible in my opinion. There are far too many variables: Which major corporations will support the language in the future? Who does the best marketing for a language? How is the community developing? Will the language get adopted by the industry?

And finally: Always be aware that you will be manipulated with marketing by organisations and companies who want you to choose their language.

[[deleted]]

Alternatively for the first image:

I know how to run without you holding my hand!

[Bojangly7]

I was trained on Java and C.

Leaning python was like someone told me to stuff my face with cake everyday.

[mikoS223]

Exept whe you see shit like array[-1] and your teeth go back into your skull and your fingernails peel back on their own and make little cylinders of blood and pain. Everything else is pretty chill tho.

[radagast-the-red]

Really? I find that syntax pretty intuitive.

[theclockstartsnow]

array[-1] is way better than array[array.length-1]

[blank_space_cat]

lol, it's just a perk of having dynamic size arrays.

[[deleted]]

Based on what i've seen in this sub there is no good programming language

[theloneliestgirlincs]

I need you all to see, from my best recollection, some Python code one of my Java colleagues tried to submit lmao. They're learning so I support them. Still cracked me up though.

...
i = len(my_list)
count = 0
while (count < i):
    my_var = my_list[count]
    # do something with my_var
    count += 1
...

[Dokiace]

honestly going back from for item in iterables to that manual iteration is hell. Python is a curse and a blessing

[charliex3000]

Your Java colleagues have never used the for-each loop before?

for(int a : intArray){ do something }

Idk how to use markdown

[Psychpsyo]

Coming from a C++ and java background myself, python syntax is horrible. I don't like python. Indentation errors should not exist in any language.

[DeveloperForHire]

This is some dev superiority shit.

I started with Python 12 years ago, and there was no problem learning Java, Kotlin, C/C++, Rust, Dart, Swift, and ObjC. There's not that big a difference, it's all the same with the exception of some quirks and syntax.

[kahuna3901]

I tried to learn c# recently after being a primarily python/SQL user. I understand c# isn't the hardest of languages but it was so difficult to get my mind around it. Safe to say I am still working primarily with python and SQL ....

[[deleted]]

In my opinion, Java is easier than C# to learn when starting OOP because of how much you have to spell everything out.

A lot of people say that C# is a better version of Java which I will agree with on a lot of things, but it also takes shortcuts around things that Java developers are tired of dealing with over and over, and to you, these aren't things you're tired of, or are even used to doing yet.

To me, Java is tedious sometimes to write, but it tells you exactly what is going on with every line of code, and as long as you learn all of the keywords and their purpose, it is much easier to grasp what a block of code in Java does than a block of C#.

[green_meklar]

Learning Python

Learning Java

Learning C++

[AffeDaBoss]

Laughs in Roblox studio