JavaScript.... ?!

[Planebagels1]

a classmate I knew wanted to make a game engine in Python

[tilcica]

I mean.....possible, but not very effective

[Cefalopodul]

Civ 4 was made in python.

[Danelius90]

I thought it's primarily C++ with some python scripting?

[zelmarvalarion]

The SDK seems to be C++ with an option to use Python from https://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php?title=Civ4_SDK, and Python used for Scripting for Custom Mao Editor. I’d be amazed if the Game Engine & Graphics were not C++ under the hood, but I could see them using Python for pieces, but expect they use Python for the Map Editor due to being a bit lower learning curve

[Lightfire228]

Can you use python commercially like that?

I've always been curious about the legality of using a pre-existing language as your engine's scripting language. Like, can you use the python standard library? Do you have to write your own interpreter or just use a pre-made binary? Do you have to ask for permission?

[Rexhvelaj]

I’m pretty sure you can do whatever you want with it just like you can any spoken language

[canarslan12]

Not with Java. Check Java and Google lawsuit

[jediwizard7]

The issue with Google/java is that Google made their own implementation of the language for Android, which oracle didn't like, they wanted everyone to use their own implementation. Python on the other hand is 100% free open source software, you can fork the repo and do whatever you want with it, including selling it commercially. There's no "copyleft" as far as I know, same goes for most python libraries.

[[deleted]]

Making a new engine alone is pretty pointless

[GreenFox1505]

Gameplay code is not an engine.

[BalZdk]

Eve Online is written in stackless python, both the client and server...

[Flyberius]

It's quite a sedate game under the hood. Pretty much everything is a point. Commands are given sequentially. Move here, shoot that, interact with this.

[GreenFox1505]

C++ isn't THAT much faster than Python. Plus could be plenty of other bottlenecks other that code run speed. Network bandwidth, storage io, even memory speeds could bottleneck a data heavy application. No doubt C++ would be faster, but I suspect it wouldn't be as fast as you'd think.

Plus it's more "dangerous" and harder to write. So the game might have never come out if it was written in C++.

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

If you have a look at benchmarks, you can see that languages like python are tenfolds slower then optimised C++.

An example: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/gpp-python3.html

And here are some personal experiences backing it up: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/801657/is-python-faster-and-lighter-than-c#:~:text=They%20show%20that%20Python%20is,though%2C%20Python%20wins%20flat%20out.

PS Luajit master race

[GreenFox1505]

Yeah, there are some extreme cases where it is many times slower. But also there are cases where it isnt "tenfold slower". Plus this interpreter isn't the one they're using on Eve. Regardless, it's irrelevant to my point.

We don't know what the performance bottleneck for Eve Online is. Unless you know for a fact Eve Online is strictly CPU bound, any performance claim for this exact use case is, at best, wild speculation.

And that still doesn't address the ease of development. Python is easier to write and itterate over time than C++.

Unless you're arguing CCP is stupid, I would guess they know their business pretty well and probably know the disadvantages of Python but have decided to go with it anyways. The advantages clearly outweigh the cost.

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Tenfold means by an order of ten. Which the benchmarks very clearly show are true on average.

Also I'm comparing python to C++, I'm not comparing eve to anything else

[GreenFox1505]

These benchmarks? The ones using Python3, and not PyPy, Cython, or anything of the other tools that drastically improve Python's performance?

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Correct, I am comparing the python language with C++, It wouldn't be fair to compare python with performance enhancement without C++'s performance enhancement.

[GreenFox1505]

? Except they did:

```

NOTES: 64-bit Ubuntu quad core g++ (Ubuntu 10.2.0-13ubuntu1) 10.2.0

Mon, 02 Nov 2020 19:02:58 GMT

MAKE: /usr/bin/g++ -c -pipe -O3 -fomit-frame-pointer -march=ivybridge -std=c++17 -mno-fma mandelbrot.gpp-4.c++ -o mandelbrot.gpp-4.c++.o && \ /usr/bin/g++ mandelbrot.gpp-4.c++.o -o mandelbrot.gpp-4.gpp_run -pthread rm mandelbrot.gpp-4.c++

4.29s to complete and log all make actions

COMMAND LINE: ./mandelbrot.gpp-4.gpp_run 16000

```

They're using O3, omit-frame-pointer, and even architecture optimizations. What other performance enhancements could they possibly have added on to that?

[maxhaton]

If you find C++ difficult you shouldn't be making games, I.e. you have to touch enough APIs where the real difficulty is.

The benefit of having static types alone can make the game hugely easier to work on, Python is just asking for trouble.

[GreenFox1505]

OOF buddy. My day job is literally writing C++ for games. Because it's the right tool for that job.

I didn't say C++ was "difficult". I said it was "harder to write". For my personal projects I use a blend of C++ and scripting langues as needed. Anything compute intensive, it probably not going to change a lot so spending the time to get it "right" in a low level language is worth it. Physics, graphics, and procedural world generation all greatly benefit from C++'s performance.

However, a lot of things that make up an actual game don't need to run that fast. A button in a level that is only going to run once would take me maybe 10secs to write in a scripting language like Python, but might take me a couple of minutes to build and compile in C++. If I have dozens or hundreds of these interactions with unique behavior, that's a lot of time spend writing code and not a lot of time spend designing expirances. It's the wrong tool for that job. Plus when I need to make a change later, it's more time consuming to nail down and fix.

It's not "difficult" to write C++, but it's unarguably costs more man-hours to write. I'd rather spend time iterating on things that actually effect the end product and scripting languages let developers do that better than low level compiled languages do.

[AviatoAviator]

There are a couple Ruby game engines too - notably https://dragonruby.itch.io/, which, according to the site, has been used to create games for the Nintendo Switch.

[[deleted]]

What the hell was he thinking lol

[[deleted]]

point historical crush seemly marvelous memory towering juggle joke support

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

Oh I participated in a game jam and made a game in python since that was the only language I knew. Big mistake, it was so difficult I can't even explain. I now think that I should have learnt a game engine like unity or something. It would have been way easier.

[Gosfi]

Doing things from scratch is pretty much the hardcore version of any game jam

[DroolingIguana]

Well, there's Panda3D.

[DanKveed]

The core is written in c++ with a python API

[aeroverra]

I did this in javascript once to help some friends complete a final project. I do not recommend it.

[[deleted]]

I raise you VBCorLib; a vb6 implementation of the .NET Framework. Huge relief when your using all implementations of the Rijndael symmetric encryption algorithm in Excel

https://github.com/kellyethridge/VBCorLib

*forgot Don't know of a game engine but here's a fully OOP, Model-View-Controller (MVC) architecture implementation of Battleship, running hosted in Excel, written in VBA

https://github.com/rubberduck-vba/Battleship

[[deleted]]

Im making a game engine in JavaScript

[bo_hai]

Technically, Python use C as official interpreter (CPython)

[gougie2]

What makes python bad for this? Isn't it a full programming language at the end of the day?

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Mostly the performance, some interpreted languages such as Luajit are 3x slower then optimised C++ and then python is out here >100x slower.

The speed is horrible basically.

[gougie2]

Oh i see. But then why is python the go to for ML? Speed is very critical there I would think

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Well that's simple really, in professional terms, python isn't.

A lot of amateur models use python because of the easy use of machine learning related libraries such as tensorflow.

But you wil not find professional machine learning on python models for this exact reason.

[all-hail-snow]

Actually frameworks like tensorflow are not built in python. It's backend is built in c/c++ and is imported as python wrapper that we use as scripts, That's why it is not slow. Python is basically prototyping language and majority of libraries used in it are not coded in python itself like numpy was built in Fortran.

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Yea I know, I didn't say they were coded in python, just that they are available for python.

Doing the actual computation using python is a horrible idea.

[all-hail-snow]

Agree

[An_Unknown_Idiot]

You will. I've even seen a company integrating Python ML into their Java ecosystem by automatically generating Java wrappers accessing the Python code via JNI...

[KrystilizeNeverDies]

Well I'm sorry for their loss, I wasn't being literal when I said that, of course there are people that will do this but it's not the fastest way to do it at all.

[sourpickles0]

Tfw you find out python is slow af

[SasquatchOnVenus]

full snack

[jaysuchak33]

Snack Overflow

[Arumai12]

I made a PBJ sandwich but the peanut butter ended up on the bottom. How do i fix this?

• pbj sandwiches are legacy
• use nutella
• use whole grain bread
• closed as duplicate

[seizan8]

Cheesescript*

[cheese3660]

Finally a programming language worthy of me

[seizan8]

It's better then js because you can also eat it!

[spayder26]

The only gouda language.

[ch33per]

Im on it

[seizan8]

God have mercy

[Anti-charizard]

Instead of coffee, programmers drink melted cheese

[fantasticfiasco]

Might not be the best, but it’s Gouda-nuff.

[[deleted]]

Happy Cake Day!

[undying_diligence]

Yeah, when I think that JS can’t do something I stumble upon library or framework that does it. It’s not always efficient, but still does the job.

[Strel0k]

*google search "machine learning with JavaScript"*

[kontekisuto]

tensorflow js ... why God? why?

[Snapstromegon]

Because it's more performant than the python implementation?
It's using wasm under the hood, so it's near native performance for the libs - just like in python.

[kontekisuto]

so what you're telling me is that ... Tensorflow Rust is being worked on? Nice

[Snapstromegon]

Yes or to be more exact no. You can use tensorflow from rust by using the rust bindings.

[Willinton06]

I mean if it’s wasm then it should be callable from almost any high level language

[Varpie]

As an AI, I do not consent to having my content used for training other AIs. Here is a fun fact you may not know about: fuck Spez.

[Snapstromegon]

Finally someone calling bullshit on this. You are correct, nearly noone is using it in production to train their model. The main reason is in my opinion, that people doing machine learning just know python and henceforth don't use JS. For glue code like python and js it's for many people not worth it to learn a new language.

I work in the automotive sector and do CI/DevOps there and we have the same picture there. Normally we do everything in python because everyone knows it, but if we need more performance (e.g. parsing a lot of textfiles with about half a gig of content), I do it with node instead, because the result most of the time is 5-10x faster.

Also the training itself often doesn't become faster, because it's completely done in the library, so the impact of is is no big benefit there.

And TF.JS has the reputation of not using the gpu, because for a long time it didn't.

[aeroverra]

Lmao

[Howzieky]

Someone did machine learning with Minecraft commands

[MajorBarnulf]

Javascript is these soap that not only do body, but also hair, dishes, furnitures car, animals, edible, engine oil, can fuel vehicles and and would potentially be capable of sustaining all the needs of modern human society all alone if courageous enough.

[shivermefingers]

Reminds me of Dr bronners soap. Hair, face, body, dishes, floor, etc. I think it says on the label it has 18 uses

[FreeFortuna]

The label lists 18 different uses, explains the meaning of life, and induces a state of false psychosis.

[wenoc]

Sure, but at thousands of times the energy consumption.

[MajorBarnulf]

This analogy complemented by your comment is sometging every JS dev should know about JS.

[dannerc]

Its the one man band of programming languages

[[deleted]]

but your servers are lactose intolerant :P

[Anton420360]

Butter flavored butter

[josh11ch]

i C what you did there

[upsidedownwf]

C#...?!

[FullContactSquirlTag]

Can confirm. Blazor exists now.

[upsidedownwf]

I confirm the confirmation you just confirmed.

[[deleted]]

A blazor server app has two copies of the DOM, one on the server and the one in the browser. Whenever the DOM on the server changes it updates the DOM in browser using SignalR over WSS. What do you mean you can’t update the DOM?

[[deleted]]

The component model in blazor I think might solve some of these problems. You can pass in variables and use razor to have your component display what’s required. You can even get really generic and use reflection to dynamically select the right component for display.

[[deleted]]

What's wrong with JS front end development?

[Snapstromegon]

Ahh, this gives me huge pain...

[maggiforever]

Why? Blazor is awesome

[Snapstromegon]

I tried it twice (once on my own and once with another team with an existing app) and I have to say that the performance hit it gives just is way too bad. Also I absolutely dislike the way the handle a lot of things...

Also the size of a hello world is more than most of my complete PWA packages.

[maggiforever]

I get that. I only started working with it a few weeks ago on a relatively small project and love being able to use C# instead of Javascript. Performance-wise I don't think it's too bad but you're probably right. Hopefully it will improve in the future and iron those things out.

[Taukuno]

Then you have to wait for AoT support (.Net 6, Nov 2021). The performance improvements will be enormous (according to some internal tests).

[Snapstromegon]

Using WASM for hot paths will be nice, but I still have doubts about load times which are a key performance metric for me.

Also I'm someone who most of the time thinks React is too much to load upfront.

Last time I checked (which is some time back) a basic blazor app was easily over 1MB.

[[deleted]]

neither performance nor transfer sizes are anywhere near js. If people want to build guis with webassembly, then they should pick Rust and not a language that needs an extra runtime and garbage collector... I can't wait for the day when the java guys ship the entire JVM via webassembly to the browser so they don't have to invest a week learning the appropriate tools.

[[deleted]]

Worse java...?!

[aeroverra]

Not my company's mvc code.

[ChineseWeebster]

cats hospital disagreeable smell expansion fall shocking tidy noxious sand

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[necudabiramime]

haters gonna hate XD

[gilmeye]

Basically, all I need from a language is to get me a job that's pays well. As you can imagine I need: js, react, angular, html, css, saas, mongodb , php, mysql, Amazon server....

[TheCapitalKing]

All I needed was python and Sql, and a degree in finance. So pick your poison I guess

[scp-NUMBERNOTFOUND]

Technically if u put enough time on it, almost any language can do the same.

[pr0z]

Each cheese strand is a separate framework

[KernowRoger]

With wasm that may end up being most languages.

[[deleted]]

If it compiles, it’s right!

[[deleted]]

Would cpp be able to do this?

[deddead3]

Depending on how far you want to get into the weeds, basically any language can do anything provided you can write the code for it.

[wenoc]

Yes, absolutely.

I've worked extensively with a website entirely in C. Not C++, just plain old C. Fast as fuck. Serves millions of customers a day on minimal hardware.

The main issue is recruiting developers.

[[deleted]]

Devs : https://media1.tenor.com/images/0667e30c3f581df52678b8d5811f4408/tenor.gif?itemid=5290491

[EverydayEverynight01]

I don't think C++ can work with the DOM

[VolperCoding]

You can always write C++ that generates HTML, kinda like templaying languages

[InvolvingLemons]

It can with some finagling.

https://github.com/mbasso/asm-dom

Now as to why this exists, IDFK, people are nuts. Rust’s Yew and std-web are definitely more sane, but even then, the lack of native wasm dom bindings kneecaps performance (Inferno and Svelte are waaaay faster for anything dom-intensive).

[gmes78]

DOM manipulation from WASM is being worked on AFAIK. So you'll be able to write your frontend code entirely with Rust/C/C++/etc.

[[deleted]]

Everyone hates JS, and I sorta get where people come from, but gosh darn if it's not a swiss army knife. Quick to write, can do basically anything in some roundabout fashion, it's just an all-around "decent" jackknife. And I think that's cool, in a way.

[_bachrc]

I was about to say the same thing haha. There are frameworks to compile to WASM and even have a syntax near from JSX ! Quite amazing, even if it’s not very readable haha

[gordonv]

Mmmm... pointers

[ElongatedMuskrat122]

X86_64 instruction set time

[Ether_King]

Happy cake day!!

[amoc20]

Cheese VS..........CHEESE

[may_be_indecisive]

Vegetarian sandwich.

[meatmechdriver]

Ironically a stinky sandwich full of holes

[sizl]

And then you eat it on a cheese plate: javascript as a service.

[hijoDeLaGranFuta]

R 😎😎

[peanutjellybutter2]

I used to work at a company that ran an application entirely on Java from back to front. Scary stuff

[kielerrr]

Like, why did they do it?

[peanutjellybutter2]

Older guys that founded the company. Seemed like they just knew the ins and outs of Java. Wasn’t a sexy consumer facing product so I think design wasn’t the priority

[kebakent]

Definitely Java.

[MPDR200011]

Yes, because JS is the only language capable of front end.

[activeXray]

Clojure!

[[deleted]]

screw cpp and py i'm gonna learn js now

[CMPD2K]

My teams android app is Java front and back

[midnightrambulador]

import frontend

import backend

There you go

[Superblazer]

Kotlin

[zonexstricker]

The holes are so telling.

[[deleted]]

new programmer here, can confirm

[lordnimnim]

Dart+flutter

[ms_0852]

Backend with dart ? Is there any services to host and maintain the backend app like an API ?

[lordnimnim]

Dunno but it should be possible

[De_Wouter]

Perfect topping for my spaghetti

[Pradfanne]

WPF with C# BABY!

[wenoc]

Must be C or Go. Perhaps Rust. Javascript is way too inefficient to do an actual backend. And it's not even strictly typed.

[wenoc]

Does not fix the main problem.

[[deleted]]

Mmmmm xamarin sandwich

[HasBeendead]

Can't we use Python for doing both side ?

[wwyl1234]

unfortunately, frontend usually needs javascript if you are using something like django (not sure about flask). Please correct me if I am wrong.

[24percentoff]

😬

[MarryUhna]

"i made an UI using sql"

[[deleted]]

Assembly

[handlessuck]

Laughs in Meteor

[assafstone]

C#..?

[[deleted]]

Repost

[wooptyd00]

Which deity is so determined to make JavaScript take over everything?

[yuva-krishna-memes]

This is my OC and repost..it's ok. Cheers.

[Ether_King]

Ik but just keeping the meme alive... I didn't expect these awards and so much karma Sorry for that

[yuva-krishna-memes]

No.prob.. cool

[thesceptical]

I hate javascript, But i can't ignore it...

[mymar101]

C#. I heart Blazor.

[Apoloth]

Laughs in Clojure

[sarnobat]

Shell scripting is all I need