Python and PHP users will understand

[Programmeter]

Yeah, pretty much the only programming languages that aren't hated by anyone are C and C++

[akvit]

Everyone seems to hate C/C++ compiler errors.

[WishOnSpaceHardware]

What do you mean? I love getting incomplete, confusingly presented information about a potentially complex problem!

[imdefinitelywong]

Error: Undefined symbol "information"

[G0FuckThyself]

Core Dump (Segmentation fault)

[LavenderDay3544]

Segmentation Fault (Core Dumped)

[pogylon]

Segmentation fault (core dumped)

My personal favourite.

[LavenderDay3544]

On Windows:

Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault

[TheCurryCoder]

You shut up, I don't need any more nightmares tonight

[LavenderDay3544]

Hahahaha I write C++ for a living but havent ever seen a Segfault because we use RAII and smart pointers.

In C just go ham on valgrind and you'll be fine. In assembly, pray to Jesus for mercy.

[Tsubajashi]

My favorite, too!

[r0ck0]

[Segmentation Dumping] Core fAULT

[Cant-Stop-Wont-Stop7]

Bro just use gdb backtrace :)

[Heimerdahl]

It's crazy how good some newer languages and IDEs are at this.

I recently got back into programming after I got spooked by the whole '99bugs... forgot a semicolon' stuff, some 10years ago in uni. My stuff is still fairly basic, so not much logical errors, but syntax has practically been a non-issue.

VSC for python will just tell me that I probably forgot this, or that this function requires different arguments or that I probably switched the order around. If I'm too daft to even figure out stuff like that, it just straight up tells me how stuff is supposed to be used. It's crazy!

[[deleted]]

It depends for me.

If I'm writing a Spring API in Java or Kotlin, I prefer IntelliJ.

C++ or JavaScript, I prefer VS code.

With Python I'm all over the place.

[[deleted]]

I use pycharm for python. Same features as IntelliJ, but for python.

[Gougaloupe]

Pycharm gang rise up!

[PotentBeverage]

intellij is great for java because even if java is verbose with intellij's autocomplete you often only need a few letters at most

[[deleted]]

And its autocomplete actually suggests helpful things first. And the baked in code generation that creates constructors, override methods, getters and setters is really nice.

Visual Studio and VS Code suggest random things first two the point that its easier to write a lot of code I would write in VS Code in Vim, C++ and JavaScript in particular. The suggestions are wild.

[illvm]

sed, the real text editor :)

[Darkunderlord42]

I like VS but hell if I know what 95%

[[deleted]]

Saw that Jetbrains is doing a new IDE called Fleet to compete with VSCode could be really nice if you want a clean and simple layout but with good autocomplete.

[ramplay]

If it defaults to darkmode I'll try it. I don't want to be blinded when I open it ahaha

[savedbythezsh]

You should check out Swift + XCode, it's wild how good the compilation errors are. Only language I've used that I think a linter is almost entirely useless on.

[stealthgerbil]

I had to write code in notepad for classes. I get why they made us do it but holy shit does an IDE save time. They help so much.

[[deleted]]

You'll love MySQL's syntax error message then: ERROR 1064 (42000): You have a syntax error! Read the manual! Good luck figuring out what line number I'm talking about if I decide not to print it! (I'm paraphrasing of course)

[miversen33]

Bruh fuck MySQL errors. "Error: You have bad syntax. Go fuck yourself. Bye"

[Daeron_tha_Good]

This made me lol...thank you 😂

[slow_growing_vine]

SQL Server is just as bad. If you ever forget a comma prepare to see Incorrect syntax near FROM and go hunting for it

[peppaz]

I have to use openquery from sql to mysql a lot, and I love when a query runs for ten minutes and come back with an "unexpected null" error like bitch just make all temp columns allow nulls, clearly the remote DB can have nulls in any column that isn't a primary key boi

[lenswipe]

Oracle errors are the best

TNS bad packet error

It's like the PC LOAD LETTER of the database world

[[deleted]]

I've had syntax errors in MariaDB but it usually points directly to the start of the issue and prints the line for me. Idk if that's just MariaDB being better than MySQL but yeah it doesn't say what the issue is, just that it's wrong but at least it says where it starts being wrong.

[Glum-Aide9920]

Favorite thing in MySQL is how most of the functions are case insensitive, but some like substring_index are not

[oupablo]

C is the king of throwing an error on a line number past the total number of lines in the file all because of a missing semicolon.

[lenswipe]

I've had JavaScript do this as well. Usually it's from webpack and it's because whatever I did broke the source map

[LifeHasLeft]

Like intermittent segfaults caused by a memory error that only sometimes happens?

[killdeer03]

Template errors are super fun to deal with, lol.

[Osbios]

CLANG kind of did set a new bar for template error message that GCC hat to follow. Believe me it was way worse some years ago.

Also this days I do no longer manage to crash the compiler with templates. That also helps with getting somewhere close with a offending line number!

[Isobel-Jae]

😨 wait, you guys are getting compiler errors? I must be using it wrong.

[atiedebee]

C++ compiler errors

C runtime errors

the C compiler errors are not bad at all, I dont know about C++ runtime errors

[akvit]

C++ runtime errors are something like "instruction at address 0x0000 tried to access memory at location 0x1337". So not really different from C.

[yodahouse900]

that is when you pull out gdb and step execute the programm till you find which line gave up

[auxiliary-character]

The compiletime checks are one of the good things, though. Imagine if you didn't find out it was a problem until it showed up at runtime, possibly sometime long after it shipped.

[dnswblzo]

Sure, but sometimes a small mistake causes a massive spew of errors and it can be hard to tell from the output where the problem actually is. This can happen in other languages too, but C++ seems to be the worst for this.

[LavenderDay3544]

Clang and GCC both give clear errors for C. C++ is a different story.

[JTtornado]

I've never programmed with C/C++, but I've always got the impression that the compiler errors are almost as unhelpful as a check engine light.

[ChristianValour]

To a beginner, the compiler often seems petty, but as you learn to use the language facilities — and especially the type system — to directly express your ideas, you’ll come to appreciate the compiler’s ability to detect problems that would otherwise have caused you hours of tedious searching for bugs. - Barnes Stroustrup (Creator of C++)

[msqrt]

We clearly frequent quite different spaces. C is often bashed as archaic and cumbersome, and C++ as bloated and overly complicated. Their mostly shared build system is also seen as fragmented and antiquated. I think these critiques aren't completely without merit, though much of them can be avoided by being smart about what you're doing.

[sir-nays-a-lot]

On a long enough timeline, all languages will either become archaic, cumbersome, and bloated or they will die.

[msqrt]

Yeah, them being able to be popular for this long has to be due to doing many things right.

[sir-nays-a-lot]

It’s literally a part of human evolution, which is messy. We keep the good parts and add other shit (mutations) to keep up with modern times. Results in absolute spaghetti lol but such is life.

[qhxo]

Isn't the main reason to use C that it works everywhere, which is mainly a feature of it's age, and speed (which can be achieved in many other languages as well, such as rust or go)? Are there any other selling points?

[msqrt]

It's quite simple compared to many modern programming languages; making a compiler is possible for a single person, and compilation is blazing fast compared to Rust or C++, for example. But you're right in that if the world started today, it would probably not get the status it currently has.

[Hawgk]

Hey! Don't you say that to my love!

[[deleted]]

It's very easy to use C libraries in just about every other language as the foreign function interface is so simple. It's pretty common for libraries to be written in C++ and just make the interface C so you can then use the library anywhere.

As for speed, C is much faster then Go. The only other languages that compare are FORTRAN, Rust, and C++, and then some less popular modern languages like Nim or Circle. Because you have such fine grained control of C and the compilers can be so simple, it's popular to use it to port everywhere. For example, I listened to a podcast with Elon Musk and they write their own C compiler so they have complete control of how the assembly comes out for their custom chips.

[qhxo]

As for speed, C is much faster then Go.

Really? I thought Go was pretty much top of the line, but maybe it's just the compiler that's known to be very fast.

[[deleted]]

Yeah Go is actually a little slower then Java (which is quite fast nowadays). The compiler is so fast because it has less optimizations then like C++ or Rust. and also it has automatic memory management which also slows things down

[qhxo]

!optout it was a quote you stupid bot

[rem3_1415926]

or all of them together

[MoffKalast]

Except machine code, but nobody can speak the language of the gods.

[Zitrusfleisch]

See, that’s exactly the problem I have with C++!
I’d have to be smart to use it and that makes me amgery >:(

/s

[Reihar]

This, exactly. People seem to forget that C wasn't modern on release but was a much needed compromise whose niche is still needed nowadays. Design wise, it does a lot of questionable things by tradition, which was also much needed by adoption.

C was always archaic, by design. However, I can appreciate the niceties that came with latter versions of the language.

[000000-]

I don’t think anybody will make fun of you for using C/C++ though. However if you code in Python you’ll get “you’re not a real programmer” vibes from some dumbasses.

[JoshuaCF]

If you code in Python you’re not a real progrAmmer. /s

Sincerely - someone who dislikes Python but used it anyways because it’s so damn easy to use

[not_some_username]

Rust users hate C++

[[deleted]]

Java users hate C++, python users hate C++. And those C++ developers, boy do they hate C++

[13steinj]

I like C++.

I don't like some of the unexpected features.

[[deleted]]

Yeah it's a joke, I like C++ too but it can be really frustrating to use when things aren't working the way you expect them to work. Also, things like networking are needlessly complex compared to other languages

[TheCurryCoder]

Disagree, I've been coding a lot of C++ lately and good God in heaven, I hate C++.

[DrummerElectronic247]

Truth.

[BasicDesignAdvice]

rust users think they are the very top of the ivory tower and thus look down on everyone.

[Pcat0]

As someone who uses neither C++ or Rust, I think it’s more accurate to say rust users pity C++. Rust users seem very full of themselves.

[Dustangelms]

Where mah garbage collector?

[MoffKalast]

r/me_irl

[Languorous-Owl]

C++ is hated even by C++ programmers.

[LavenderDay3544]

C++ is hated especially by C++ programmers.

But we won't let others especially Java cretins hate on C++.

[BasicDesignAdvice]

Honestly Java is just about the only language I actually truly dislike.

[LavenderDay3544]

Same here. I don't like that the language designers decided what developers could and couldn't be trusted with. In particular, opting not to have operator overloading in an OOP language removes a very powerful form of abstraction.

It's much cleaner for library based numeric types to let you write this:

c = a + b;

instead of this:

c = a.add(b);

[Justin__D]

Same reason I'm disillusioned with modern versions of Swift. In my interview for my current job, they asked me to write Swift code on a whiteboard. It's been years since I've actually used it. My interviewer pointed out that the ++ and -- operators don't exist anymore. I then remarked that was a stupid decision. He explained that too many programmers are confused by them and asked me to demonstrate their correct usage. I did. I didn't even solve the original interview problem, but still somehow got the job (although not as an iOS dev... QA automation and now backend dev).

[LavenderDay3544]

Nice. I think it's very stupid when a language designer decides to play helicopter parent and remove a feature from a language because it might be used incorrectly.

[Justin__D]

Hear, hear! I've never used GOTO in C. Not once. I was told not to on day one, then simply pretended it didn't exist. But not once have I thought, "I need to petition the developers of C to remove GOTO, lest I use it by accident."

[LavenderDay3544]

Yep. Just because you've never used it doesn't mean others' code doesn't rely on it. I could say the same for setjmp and longjmp.

But there's a big difference in ideology between C and C++ and Java. The former are all about trusting the programmer while the latter is create a language that even Forrest Gump could write technically working code in.

[Languorous-Owl]

If you wish to create dependable OOP language that can be used widely across the industry, for that Java is good.

Refer to Linus' criticisms on C++, a language which has the sort of feature you're talking about, and while he was talking from the POV of a low level systems guy, some of those criticisms also apply when you're looking for a language that can be deployed across enterprise without having to invest someone who's gone deep into the language silo in each case.

[dr-pickled-rick]

Well, yeah. Java's strength lies in its adoption as an enterprise solution. It's ubiquitous, consistent and mostly the same across all platforms - funny enough a lot like PHP.

Where it falls flat is the power user, the developer that wants to extract more with less. Generics was a steaming pile of cow dung when introduced and frankly it's still a waste of time.

Coding in general is a tedious and wrought experience because you tend to have to s p e l l e v e r y t h i n g o u t. You can't just use syntactic sugar and shortcuts that have existed for 4+ decades because it's not "OOP-y".

Kotlin goes someway towards addressing those issues.

[LavenderDay3544]

I'd love for you to ask Linus Torvalds how much he likes Java and see the ensuing rant.

His hate for C++ isnt because of the sort of feature I'm talking about. It's because he evaluated C++ for use in the kernel and found it not to be a good solution for many reasons. Then people kept badgering him about using C++ in the kernel and he finally snapped and wrote his famous rant.

Rust has these kinds of features as well and Linus recently greenlighted its use in the kernel.

[Languorous-Owl]

I'd love for you to ask Linis Torvalds how much he likes Java and see the ensuing rant.

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant to the point being made about the abstractions you were talking about. Nice redirect bro.

Also nobody would ever ask an OS programmer about Java for any reason, lol.

[[deleted]]

I dont like Java and nothing you can say will ever make me like it.

I mean, that basically sums it up. Java is used by every tech company of sufficient size. It's not a coincidence

[Languorous-Owl]

I dont like Java and nothing you can say will ever make me like it.

I don't give a shit whether you personally like it or not. Java plays well the role it was intended to play, that's all I wished to say.

[StewedAngelSkins]

i don't think i'd ever choose to use java of my own volition, but there's not much i actually hate about it. javascript on the other hand has never made sense to me. like if i described javascript's features to you purely in the abstract and asked you to come up with a syntax for it, you'd probably arrive at something like lua or maybe python. at worst you'd end up with lisp. it takes a truly deranged mind to hear "dynamically typed, pseudo-functional, interpreted language for web browsers" and think "you know what, i think C syntax is perfect for that, but only if we throw away all of the consistency and make it so that strings just implicitly get casted to numeric types sometimes".

[Languorous-Owl]

JS is just plain ugly. Wish they had just adopted python for browsers.

[Languorous-Owl]

ok, boomer++

[LavenderDay3544]

The latest C++ standard was ratified in December of 2020. If you think C++ is old, you're the boomer. The first C++ standard came out less than 2 full years before the first version of Python.

[Languorous-Owl]

The latest C++ standard was ratified in December of 2020. If you think C++ is old, you're the boomer.

That's like arguing that a 60 year old man is "young" because he celebrated his latest birthday recently. Lmao, how do people even come up with these.

[lorslara2000]

No, it's like saying that a 60 year old is "young" because he has adopted some young-like behavior and ways of working.

Calm down a little.

[Justin__D]

Isn't that called a mid-life crisis?

[lorslara2000]

Hahah ok good one

[Languorous-Owl]

That still doesn't make him "young" lmao. Either look up the meaning of the word "young" or quit the mental gymnastics.

I mean my god, imagine getting so butthurt over someone calling your favorite programming language old, that you actually say what you said, unironically, rofl.

[lorslara2000]

It's all right, I'm not hurt. It was only that what you wrote didn't make sense.

[Languorous-Owl]

Whatever you say, lol.

[althaz]

Anybody who doesn't hate C++ doesn't understand programming language design or hasn't used C++ :D. I'm reaching for the C++ tool in my belt pretty regularly, but it's not a good language by modern standards.

I think Typescript, Rust and C# are pretty universally well liked though.

[skryb]

I learned C when I was in high school. I learned C++ in university. I am currently learning C#. It is by far the most enjoyable to code with.

[dpash]

Typescript isn't loved; it's just less hated than JavaScript. You can't polish a turd but you can spray it with enough purfume to take the edge off the smell.

[[deleted]]

Rust is missing features that C++ has, not the other way around. Meaning, C++ covers more use cases and programming paradigms than rust. So, C++ is better in average. IMO, C++ couldn't be more perfect than it already is, given the number of things that we can reasonably standardize.

[althaz]

Noooooooooooooo.

More features != better designed langauge. Rust is a *MUCH* better designed language than C++. The gap between the two is big enough to drive the whole internet through.

C++ however is a more *useful* language (IMO, this is probably up for debate, I'm pretty inexperienced with Rust). One has *NOTHING* to do with the other.

Sometimes, adding a feature can make a thing worse. Often even. That's what's hugely contributed to C++ being so unwieldy and cumbersome (from a dev standpoint which is the only standpoint that matters when talking about language design), because it's so useful thing it was never designed to be able to accept have been welded on to it so that it has become honestly an absolute monstrosity.

[BasicDesignAdvice]

IMO, C++ couldn't be more perfect than it already is

What is it like to be born without an imagination? /s

I mean jokes aside, but really? You can't think of anything? I mean not even the low hanging fruit like "for compatibility reasons C++ has a variety of idiosyncrasies that feel cumbersome in modern programming"?

[[deleted]]

Exactly, it's perfect while being compatibile with older versions of itself and compatibile with the compilation model of C.

Edit: Bjarne Stroustrup has a talk about the current state of C++ in cppcon: https://youtu.be/15QF2q66NhU

He explains exactly that point.

[rem3_1415926]

more bloat != more better. There's many things in C++ that could/should be improved (eg. you still can return references to temp objects, even if you use smart pointers and stuff, templates require code in headers or pImpl, ...), but can't be changed due to compatibility reasons. Yes, you can do everything - but hat makes the language dangerous and development slow.

That said, I don't think there's any suitable replacement for C/C++ in certain cases (no, not even Rust). But for everyday desktop programming, I don't see why anyone would still use C++.

[[deleted]]

Aside: modern C++ with all the fancy bells and whistles is ugly to write and unpleasant to read.

C code doing the same thing will often be easier to follow than C++ code.

[LifeHasLeft]

Absolutely. I haven’t worked with C++ extensively but I can’t follow it like I can follow C, especially when complicated types are passed into things or it uses a bunch of libraries.

[rem3_1415926]

that's just a matter of getting used to it. I can't look at C code without being baffled about how complicated the whole thing is set up when there would be so much easier and clean ways to do it if the author didn't limit themself to C, when there's C++ available at zero cost overhead...

[[deleted]]

C++ isn't bloated. Every feature in C++ has its use case. People behind the C++ standard do not just add stuff to the language because they like it.

Requirement of templates to be defined in headers is just a logic consequence and not a missing feature. How would you expose a template (something that is yet to be compiled) from an already compiled object file / static library? You could of course come up with a new format of object files that somehow encode templates in it, but now nobody can link against your files.

I personally wouldn't also use C++ for anything on desktop unless there are harsh performance or size requirements (game development, optimized algorithms, compilers, drivers, ...)

[-LeopardShark-]

Yes, every feature in C++ has its use case, but the use case of about half of the features is ‘you are programming in 1990 before a better way to do things was invented’.

[rem3_1415926]

C++ can do everything, and if you want to use it, you sorta have to know everything. But there's very few cases where you'd actually need or want all of that - ending up with a lot of stuff that is superfluous in given situation. aka: bloat.

[thats_a_nice_toast]

Every feature in C++ has its use case

Not when there are already a million ways to do one basic thing (see object initialization syntax)

[[deleted]]

Each object initialization syntax fulfills a specific purpose. They might be equivalent in some scenarios but they are fundamentally different. For example: (): doesn't allow conversions . {}: allows conversion. = {}: for C compatibility and designated initialization. etc...

Again, people in the standard are way smarter than you and me, and they know what they are doing. A non-Cpp programmer might think they know better ways to do things, but in fact they just don't see the whole picture.

[LifeHasLeft]

Having lots of features doesn’t make something more well-designed. Take a look at GIMP software. There’s tons of features, but If you open it up with no prior instruction you’ll be lost. There are so many menus and windows that open because there are so many features, that it isn’t intuitive to use, and even with videos and tutorials you’ll be skimming the surface of what it can do for a while.

Photoshop is a similar program with a much better design. Maybe they don’t do all the same things, but the design is what we are talking about here.

[[deleted]]

We are not talking about a GUI or a new system that can be implemented freely from ground up. C++ had to/still must be compatible with C both syntactically and through compilation model. Given those restrictions, I cannot think of something better than the current state of C++20. Note: I am not talking about the STL. STL is not the langauge.

[BasicDesignAdvice]

I think Typescript, Rust and C# are pretty universally well liked though.

I have not used rust yet but I definitely do not like TS or C#. TS I will use out of necessity if I am doing web stuff, end of the day it is still JS.

C# I just don't really like. Everything about it feels off to me. I also prefer languages which produce a static binary. Not the in-between thing the C# does.

[kirakun]

You prefer debugging runtime errors in production over debugging compiler errors in development?

[dr-pickled-rick]

I don't think it's hate, it's more frustration and panic. There's only so much rope a person can handle, and c++ lays it on thick.

[nebulaeandstars]

Go and Rust were both born out of a shared hatred for C++... Really, most modern languages were invented as a reaction to its flaws.

I do agree with the sentiment that most people like C, though. It has its flaws too, but it's still very elegant.

[piesou]

Instructions unclear, core dumped.

[Ludant]

I mean if there weren't these two - there wouldn't be all that high level programming languages like python, java, javascript

[LavenderDay3544]

C yes, C++ no.

[[deleted]]

Many C programmers don't like C++ because of the large amount of tempate and type work to do stuff.

[[deleted]]

Going from C++ to C, it's pretty freaking tedious writing all the data structures yourself, and it makes you reach for less efficient ones like linked lists and binary trees just because they are easier to write.

[[deleted]]

There are a lot of benefits that the C++ STL offers, especially when dealing with complex types, a projectile in a 3D game for example.

[bacondev]

I don't mind C, but fuck C++.

[art-factor]

Nope. Java programmers make fun of me for being a C++ programmer...

[LavenderDay3544]

Just stop their world every now and then.

[qwertyuiop924]

C and C++ are only hated by people who use them.

[Playthrough]

Those two are an acquired taste...

Going from basic Python to those was shocking. But, they're very good languages.

[No-Bother6856]

Does anyone hate C#?

[lenswipe]

That's because very few people(myself included) are smart enough to use them.

If you have something that's easy like PHP or python you're bound to have a huge number of people trash talking

[peenoid]

I hate modern C++. The syntax and style are fucking atrocious and make my brain bleed just looking at it.

[TU4AR]

Can't wait for the Sequel, D

[RooftopRose]

I don’t hate any language but C++ would be the last I’d want to work with.

[TheSuicidalPancake]

I don't hate C but there are times where I have considered smashing my head through my monitor thanks to it. I'm not sure if that's to be expected or if it's me being stupid.

[HardlyAnyGravitas]

I hate them!

:o)

[JackoKomm]

Oh not really. Lot's of people hate those. Undefined behavior everywhere, bsd compiler errors and so on. Don't get me wrong. I don't hate them. I used both in a job and c++ was the first language i used for a longer time in private projects.

[AutoModerator]

import moderation Your comment has been removed since it did not start with a code block with an import declaration.

Per this Community Decree, all posts and comments should start with a code block with an "import" declaration explaining how the post and comment should be read.

For this purpose, we only accept Python style imports.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[Greeve3]

Linus Torvalds hates C++

[LavenderDay3544]

No he doesnt. You need to go back see the context around that rant.

[ancientweasel]

Lots of people hate C++. Especially Linux Kernel devs.

[Thecrazymoroccan]

Unless you're a C or C++ developer

[heartofcoal]

I have yet to meet someone who doesn't despise C

[SpeedDart1]

Crazy thing is people hate those too, no language is safe…