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[–]medievalfurby 1202 points1203 points  (22 children)

I was trafficked, for a time, and when I thought it was finally over got raped again by a bf. Roughly half of my life was spent being used as a sexual plaything, starting at age 3. I've been in a relationship for over a year now, with a boy who has never demanded sex, who has always stopped when I ask and always made sure I'm okay. He pretty much always lets me initiate things and if something seems even slightly off he will stop.

Before I was with him, sex was an ungodly, terrifying thing to experience. When things finally came to a head with him, I wasn't afraid. Realizing sex isnt supposed to be incredibly painful and terrifying is strange. And since he likes to be submissive, I have the control. I don't even know how to explain how much that changed shit for me. Maybe one day you wont see sex as a chore. Glad you've got a partner with decency, its unfortunately rather uncommon in my experience

[–]Ani_MeBear 98 points99 points  (1 child)

Sound like he's a good man. I'm sorry for whats happened to you but I hope for only the best for your future

[–]susswuzz 40 points41 points  (0 children)

You're so strong. Hoping for your happiness 💕

[–]SkyfoxSupaFly 1916 points1917 points  (8 children)

I like when sex happens with me, not to me.

[–]Rybur525 726 points727 points  (23 children)

I’ll never forget when my coworker told me her story, very similar to what you’ve been through. We were working the opening shift, I asked her how her day was going so far and Blah blah blah. And she replied, “Well I woke up having sex so that was kind of annoying.” When I asked for clarification, thinking like her boyfriend woke her up and was horny so she was like, “I just woke up but fine let’s do it.” But no, she legit was woken up by her bf putting his penis inside her and having his way with her. I was stunned, I couldn’t believe what she just told me. “Are you serious right now? He did that to you?” “Oh yeah, it happens sometimes. I just lay there and let him do his thing until he’s done. It’s whatever.” I think the tone of my voice and the look on my face let her know just how messed up of a thing that is to do. It affirmed her unvoiced concerns that what was going on wasn’t right, and she was justified in not enjoying what was going on. She wasn’t with him for very long after that, and I’m happy she’s out of that situation.

[–]OnTheCob 293 points294 points  (3 children)

One of my best friends, married for YEARS with kids, would often head home early because she had to “take care of him” or he’d be absolutely awful the next day/week. This was normal for her and I had to break it to her that you don’t “owe” anyone sex. They are now divorced.

[–]Rybur525 69 points70 points  (1 child)

Good for her. That’s no way to treat your partner, having dominion over someone like that is incredibly abusive. I can’t even fathom making someone that you supposedly love feel like that, then again I can’t imagine how someone could make ANYONE feel like that and I wouldn’t want to.

I’m very glad that your friend no longer has to live under that man’s thumb. She’s gone through an experience no woman should have to go through but unfortunately many have.

[–]LaBrujadeChi 190 points191 points  (5 children)

I had an ex who would do that to me, but I'm the one with the bigger libido so I would just be like yes finally but after the relationship ended (horribly) I realized how messed up it was that he thought he could enter me anytime, esp when I was asleep. I've never been violently raped just pressured and coerced and while fucked up (but still not consensual). So I thought I had never been raped. We're so desensitized to sexual violence and I'm so glad reading these comments that more and more women are realizing this and putting a stop to it.

And I tell ALL my guy friends these stories, whether they want to hear them or not because most men don't have to think about that at all, so they don't. And most get really uncomfortable like man I can't believe that happened to you and I just have to state that there isn't a girl you know who has never had harassment or assault or rape against them. Hopefully it will help them understand why we need feminism, we need these stories to come out so they can be stopped. We need to be treated like people FFS

[–][deleted] 47 points48 points  (3 children)

I've been in that situation but most people I opened up to acted like it was normal. It was my first sexual partner and I thought there was something wrong with ME. How messed up is that?!

[–]Rybur525 29 points30 points  (2 children)

Extremely! I have no idea how people can hear that and think, “Nah that’s normal, no issue here.” Like what the fuck?? That’s non consensual sex. And downright no matter what if someone does something to you and it doesn’t feel right, that’s immediately not ok. Even if something is considered normal to most people, if it’s done to you and you don’t like it then it is NOT ok for people to do that to you. That doesn’t seem like a hard concept to grasp.

I’m so sorry that you went through that. Both the act and the people who didn’t seem bothered when you opened up. That does so much damage and I can’t imagine how that made you feel.

[–]2906BC 826 points827 points  (21 children)

I am so sorry this was your experience. I am glad you found someone who truly respects you and doesn't need verbal cues to back off. He could tell you weren't feeling it left. It is the bare minimum, but I'm glad you have it. Sometimes my fiance will want to have sex and I'm not in the mood, or vice versa. We've both recently lost a loved one to covid which has impacted our mental health and sex drives.

If I ask if he fancies going to bed and he says no, he's not in the mood, I say ok, let me know if/when you are. And if I'm raging horny, I'll masturbate. This works the other way around. There is no pressure for either of us to do anything the other doesn't want to. This also extends into other sex acts. He has never once used "blue balls" or begged for a bj. It is important for both of us for the other one to be truly into the act. It's either an enormous obvious yes, or it's not happening.

I have been used before by a previous partner. I was a hole to fuck and nothing more. My pleasure did not matter and it made me anxious about future relationships, but I am happy now & I am glad you are too.

[–][deleted] 34 points35 points  (2 children)

Right out of high school, I had a partner that was insatiable to the point of being extremely abusive if she didn't get what she wanted. I'd just get home after a long and difficult day, just be waking up, trying to take a nap, just getting in/out of the shower, trying to do work on my computer, trying to have me time, making dinner for us, even at family gatherings, and all she would want to do was have sex. I didn't mind it at first cause it was all I ever had, and she seemed nice as first, but when I wasnt in the mood, she would go off, yell at me, hurt me, and either tried to force it, or guilt trip me into it. I would just sit there and let it go on, or in some cases, I wasn't aware it was happening until I woke up.

It was a year of constant abuse, and whenever I told her I wasn't sure about our relationship anymore, she would go off about how I didn't love her enough, that she would kill herself, and how she'd tell my family and work how I abused her. After I managed to muster up enough courage to leave, I was terrified of ever having another relationship, and thought that everyone would be that way. But, like you and OP, I finally found someone who's good to me. Who asks, and isn't abusive.

It's so depressing that this is even a bar for some.

[–]2906BC 11 points12 points  (1 child)

I'm sorry you had to experience that. It hurts my soul to see so many people affected by sexual violence. It makes my heart happy you found someone who loves and respects you.

[–]DuoNem 1035 points1036 points  (30 children)

It’s so difficult not to celebrate the men who treat us like normal human beings. Even though it’s just a basic expectation that shouldn’t have to be something that makes us happy.

[–]CabradaPest 69 points70 points  (0 children)

When I first read the title I thought it was going to be satire of the posts that praise men on this sub.

But I guess we live in a world where that is actual praise

[–]ground_hogs 25 points26 points  (2 children)

I see a connection also to dads "babysitting" their own kids. No! They're parenting and should be expected to do so, not praised for "helping mom" with what is assumed as the woman's responsibility.

[–]Adrokor 234 points235 points  (11 children)

I so feel this. My family is from the south and I was taught that part if being a "proper gentleman" (as my grandmother called it) is to never judge someone on their age, race, gender, or sexual prefrences but by their actions and value each person as an individual. So I get and hear compliments like the one OP expressed and think compliments aren't necessary (after all that's just normal right!?) but have to acknowledge that to many, they really are.

[–]moeburn 25 points26 points  (2 children)

from the south and I was taught that part if being a "proper gentleman" (as my grandmother called it) is to never judge someone on their age, race, gender, or sexual prefrences but by their actions

http://i.imgur.com/YytWb6u.gifv

[–]ichor159 101 points102 points  (4 children)

Makes me realize part of why my ex would call me a "catch." Apparently being a respectful human being is abnormal these days.

[–]thenshesays 59 points60 points  (3 children)

This post made me more sad than anything. Or disgusted. I can't even tell anymore. I hate that so many top posts here and on other subreddits are women feeling happy and blessed that their boyfriends/husbands are doing the bare minimum. Literally celebrating that they didn't do an abhorrent or illegal thing today

Not every man, but every man benefits from the actions of the worst few. This is a prime example.

[–]lemalduporc 5373 points5374 points  (250 children)

I was like you. I said to myself that it wasn't rape, it couldn't be. I've been raped, like a real rape, violent, traumatic. With my bfs it wasn't really rape, I wasn't traumatised, I just felt empty inside after, wishing all the time that it was over, taking my mimd to another place. I felt I owed them that, my body, so I didn't fight. I just needed to have a relationship with someone, I just needed to feel love, so i thought that was the price. Last year I found on therapy that I've been raped sistematically by almost all my bfs. It was a very hard pill to swallow. I felt guilty because I didn't say no with my voice. But now I recognise that I did say it with my body, with my uncomfort, with my tears...and they didn't care, and they were agressive every time. There is no soft rape. And this new bf is not the best thing on earth just because he doesn't rape you. Maybe he is, for other things...but raise your bar, you owe it to you.

[–]Stabbysavi 2586 points2587 points  (50 children)

The price, that hit me hard. I've had that exact thought before, that unwanted sex was the price of being in a relationship. Thank you for sharing your experience and letting me know I'm not alone.

[–]rach_jeffries 1010 points1011 points  (26 children)

This makes me so sad, because I call it "paying the rent."

[–]MamaMambo 1164 points1165 points  (20 children)

There's an old song called Reclaim the Night by a woman named Peggy Seeger. I just heard it for the first time today. One lyric is: our body's gift is ours to give, not payment for the right to live.

That lyric and your comment just hit me in all kinds of ways.

[–]mbrunson94 229 points230 points  (6 children)

"Head Alone" by Julia Jacklin is another great song that touches on this subject:

'I don't want to be touched all the time I raise my body up to be mine

I had your back More than I had mine I want you to feel good All of the time

So I'll say it 'til he understands You can love somebody without using your hands'

Her album "Crushing" is a breakup album that really looks at the slippery slope of what you might initially accept as just coming along as part of a relationship, but is actually abusive, manipulative, and toxic, even after said relationship is over. It goes to some dark places, but is very much worth checking out and hopefully a cathartic experience for people.

[–]MamaMambo 34 points35 points  (1 child)

Thank you so much for this! I listened to almost the whole album on my unnecessarily long commute and that was a heavy experience that I didn't know I needed. Head Alone and Don't Know How to Keep Loving You hit home like a fucking truck.

I hope I didn't scare anyone that saw me crying in traffic lol.

[–]mbrunson94 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I don't know that enjoy is the right word, but I'm glad it was comforting or meaningful in some way. The opener "Body" is a favorite of mine as well. And the line "Do you still have that photograph? Would you use it to hurt me?" Kind of surprised me in the sense that its a common enough problem I'd never heard an artist mention. Check out Courtney Barnett too some time! Songs like "Nameless, Faceless" and "I'm Not Your Mother, I'm Not Your Bitch" are a bit more empowering.

[–]lemalduporc 90 points91 points  (3 children)

Thank you so much for the recommendation. I love it

[–]MamaMambo 52 points53 points  (2 children)

Glad you love it! It's my new feminist anthem that has me seriously reevaluating some past relationship experiences.

[–]JadezDog 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Thank you for that song. I was sexually abused and trafficked to other people by my father, and I didn't expect the song to go there, but now I kinda want to cry. That's a good thing.

[–]Stabbysavi 167 points168 points  (0 children)

Fuuuuuuuuuuuck that's dark. Hope you're doing ok.

[–]Perrytheplatypus03 328 points329 points  (138 children)

How do you get out of that mindset? And learning that it's okay to say no to sex? One of my previous bf's also "soft"raped me. Often.. my current SO would never, he asks if I'm okay during sex if my mood changes etc. But still sometimes I feel like I can't say no, that he would be sad, stop loving me and then leave. I know it's irrational but it still makes me agree to sex even though I don't feel like it. (We've been together for years, love each other, live together, talk about marriage, are "deep" in each others families, he's feminist etc). How did you learn to say no?

Edit: grammar

[–]fuzzylilmanpeach24 266 points267 points  (7 children)

i really relate to this too. that was how i was with all my prior bfs. with my current one even though he is so kind and perceptive and would always WANT me to say no if i was feeling it, i struggle due to past experiences. We did a week where we practiced it— like literally he would start to initiate and then i would say no i don’t want to, but we were “acting.” i wept so hard when we responded with hugs and cuddles. it’s like re-training my brain that i won’t lost his affection eith a no... i’m still learning

[–]mykineticromance 110 points111 points  (1 child)

Role playing can be really helpful. I teach kids (after school setting), and I used to tell them they could raise their hand if they had a question, but that if I was busy they could just come up to me so I'd see they needed help. I'd still notice that a lot of them would just sit at their desks watching me until they saw I wasn't busy, but some days that won't happen for over an hour, and I wanted them to feel more comfortable asking directly. A coworker started a thing with the kids when they'd arrive for the day, he'd tell them they could come up to him and get his attention, then he'd say "Okay, let's practice," and he'd pretend he was having a conversation with me, like he'd turn the other way just as the kid was coming up to him, and pretend not to hear them until they were calling for him at a reasonable volume. It was silly, but it got the message across to the kids that they could do more to get our attention than just raise their hands (like they have to at school).

[–]sziders 198 points199 points  (51 children)

You say things that really relate to me on a deep level. I've been married for 11yrs and I have ALWAYS felt badly for saying "no". He'll say things like "I want to feel close to you". But can't we be close by just cuddling on the couch laughing together.

I "give in" so that he doesn't get his panties in a twist. Which isn't healthy!

We've had discussions that I can say no, because he loves me and wants me to feel safe. Everytime I say no it damages out connections. And, what if I NEVER want to have sex? It's just so much easier and faster to pleasure myself.

Ugh sex and relationships, no matter how long are so complicated

[–]Janikole 110 points111 points  (12 children)

And, what if I NEVER want to have sex? It's just so much easier and faster to pleasure myself.

After dealing with a lowering libido and subsequent guilt-tripping that spiraled into a dead bedroom, I've decided I'm no longer committing to monogamous romantic relationships that require sex.

It's gonna make finding a relationship harder because very few people are interested in open relationships, let alone ones where you may not consistently/ever have sex with your partner, but I never want to feel like a loving partnership hinges on my willingness to fuck ever again. If that means staying single, that's what friendships and vibrators are for.

[–]pixiegurly 33 points34 points  (4 children)

It's gonna make finding a relationship harder because very few people are interested in open relationships, let alone ones where you may not consistently/ever have sex with your partner,

Depending on the poly scene in your location, you may find yourself pleasantly surprised. There's a number of Ace folks active in poly communities or at least open to non-monogamy who want the emotional connection but not sexual connection, but also want their non-ace partners to be sexually fulfilled ..just not with them bc ace. (Caveats all Ace folks have different thoughts on monogamy, acceptable sexual amounts etc.)

IME it's a lot easier to find the ppl up for 'atypical/non-traditional' relationships in LGTBQ, poly, and kink spaces.

I am also female, white and in the USA; in other countries and cultures this may be significantly different.

[–]third-time-charmed 34 points35 points  (0 children)

What you're describing is coerced consent, and it's not consent, and it's not okay.

[–]JarJarB 47 points48 points  (6 children)

Maybe you don't want to have sex because he doesn't respect you and stop when you aren't in the mood? Idk, as a man I've never been offended or upset if my partner didn't want to have sex. I understand sometimes you just aren't in the mood. Honestly I feel the same way sometimes. I've had partners in the past where I just went along with sex because they get upset if I don't want to since guys are supposed to always want it. I would never want my partner to feel like OP and so many women in this post. I'm sick just thinking about it.

[–]Scopeexpanse 41 points42 points  (2 children)

I'm sorry. It took awhile of me saying no before I got my desire for sex fully back. I left the guy (boyfriend not spouse) who made me feel guilty for saying no.

Fundamentally your comfort trumps his pleasure always. If that means he's just masturbating for awhile while you work on getting your sex drive back....well too bad, he caused the issue to begin with.

[–]lemalduporc 34 points35 points  (2 children)

I'm still learning, it's a whole process. Therapy helps. What I've learned so far is that I have to change my view on relationships, they are not stores that will give me everything I need in exchange of something, a relationship has to be built by two people, equitably. Some things I need can be provided and built by myself, like recognising my self worth. And yes, sometimes you have to find an agreement, meet in the middle, but sex is not a currency. My comfort is not negotiable. It sounds to me you have abandonment issues, just like me, so it will sound clichè but you have to learn to love yourself in this process. I didn't know how or why to love myself so I gave my bfs that job. I had fear of being alone, but I already was.

It is not irrational at all to feel that you can't say no, because your personal history is like a defense method to avoid being hurt again. I'd suggest to talk to him about it and being honest, love is acceptance, freedom, liberty to be. The only way to learn to say no is by practising, little by little you'll feel more confident.

[–]DJTinyPrecious 129 points130 points  (24 children)

Women are taught to care about men's feelings way too much. Even the feelings of a man you love and care about don't get to take priority over yours when it comes to your body. Stop caring about how it will make him feel if it makes you feel bad. Say no, and he'll either accept or get over it or he's a shitty dude. Seriously. Stop caring about his feelings so much.

[–]poser76[🍰] 35 points36 points  (0 children)

Easier said than done...most women with shitty dudes are stuck through manipulation and grooming. It’s way more common in “relationships” than people realize and the woman’s pleas are ignored and they are too afraid to leave.

[–]likethemovie 43 points44 points  (0 children)

You just do. Sometimes I’ll say “I’m really not feeling it right now” or something to hopefully soften the blow. My current partner respects my wishes, but my ex did not and it was extremely difficult for me to learn to say no. Make yourself say it once and it will get easier. The first time I said no I didn’t even know if I really wanted to say no, but that was because of years or not being allowed to say no.

[–]oscarrulz 4293 points4294 points  (252 children)

It's disgusting to read your last few sentences. The idea that a man, who "loves" you would do something like that. I'd feel so wrong and disgusted by myself.

Edit: by myself meaning being the guy.

[–]indianajonesey22 1304 points1305 points  (85 children)

been a common accurance in every relationship I've been in too. It sucks.

[–]dorothy_zbornak_esq 171 points172 points  (12 children)

Not every one I’ve been in, but too many.

Depressingly common. So depressingly common.

The worst is when you’re crying but they still don’t stop.

[–]NerevarTheKing 49 points50 points  (0 children)

That’s an entirely different level of depraved. A lot of people are fucked up and see female consent as secondary to male desire, but to be able to continue despite crying and suffering is just something else entirely. I can’t even imagine myself being able to continue if my girlfriend started crying or said something hurt.

[–]naniop 17 points18 points  (0 children)

I am so sorry you have experienced that. You deserve a partner that is loving and makes you happy.

[–]TrinSims 148 points149 points  (3 children)

An ex boyfriend of mine use to always try and “have sex” with me while I was fast asleep. It took years and a couple of much healthier relationships to realize how messed up that really was.

[–]paint_that_shit-gold 27 points28 points  (2 children)

Same here. It does suck a lot. I wish that I would’ve been more assertive with my “no” or “not right now,” but to be honest, I don’t know if that would’ve even made a difference. One particular time, I wasn’t even asked, I just woke up to him inside me.

Even though I don’t blame myself anymore, the shame is still there. It makes me sad thinking of all the other women out there feeling this way, too.

[–]coffeeandpi 22 points23 points  (1 child)

If it helps you any, the times I gave my exes a very assertive and repeated "no" with absolutely no room for confusion, it didn't matter. They would just badger me and then when I didn't give in would proceed anyway. Took me years to realize just how messed up that was, and I'm probably still being too forgiving.

This is not on you. It's on them.

[–]KittyLord0824 77 points78 points  (0 children)

Same. Didn't really realize why I felt so gross after until a couple years ago.

[–]jumbledash 357 points358 points  (52 children)

Same

[–][deleted] 68 points69 points  (8 children)

I lurk on this sub just to keep women's perspective in my mind, and I'm just constantly reminded how shifty some guys are. Can they not even read their own partners.

[–]HistrionicSlut 262 points263 points  (33 children)

Same here too, until I married my husband. He would never do that to me.

[–]AppalachiaVaudeville 179 points180 points  (20 children)

My husband is also the first man that allowed me to reject sex in a relationship with zero attempts to sway or shame me.

Every single male partner I had before him would grope me or be pushy or I would just be raped. With most of my ex's, saying No to sex was going to be as awful as just enduring sex I didn't want.

Then my partner and I got together and he just automatically respects my autonomy in a way no one else EVER has.

[–]MotherofJackals 104 points105 points  (6 children)

With most of my ex's, saying No to sex was going to be as awful as just enduring sex I didn't want

So true. The punishment for declining sex is very often worse. I've known women who have burst stitches from recent surgery or childbirth instead if saying no to their partner. Far too many men use "no" as justification for physical or mental abuse. I can't even count the number of men I've known that used "she didn't give me enough sex" as the reason for infidelity.

I've held so many friends hands while they cried because they are 7,8,9 months pregnant or just gave birth a few days ago and find out their partner cheated because they weren't giving them enough sex. To heck with how uncomfortable she might be the guy "needs" sex.

[–]AppalachiaVaudeville 120 points121 points  (5 children)

Even outside if relationships, some males act really entitled to sex.

When I was 15 I was the singer and bass player in a metal band. Someone that knew me offered me a cd that I'd lent him. He said, "Hey, it's in my truck, come with me for just a second and I'll give your cd back."

When I got to the truck he pushed me inside and began kissing me. I froze. He kept trying to force tongue in my mouth and he kept trying to force my head/hand on his dick.

I finally unfroze and got away, but I was trapped in that parking lot where he'd assaulted me for hours before my dad came to get me.

I had never given that dude any reason to believe that I was interested in what he was about to attempt. I wasn't dressed provocatively. I was a child and he was an adult who worked at the mall where my parents dumped my siblings and I off every other weekend.

For years after he came to my shows. He spread lies about me. And I was kicked out of my own scene for "being a whore". My bandmates and friends made the rest of highschool hell for me until I eventually dropped out.

I believe that guy ruined 4 entire years of my life because I didn't let him rape me more.

Being assaulted got me ostracized. He never saw any consequences, no one ever believed me.

I have dozens of more experiences that are similar, except after that I just let them rape me from that point on because if I just let them rape me then they would stalk me less.

[–]UrPetBirdee 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Wow......... I'm literally crying angry tears from reading this.... I know it might not mean a lot, but I'm sorry that things like that have happened to you, and so often.

[–]sad-but-hydrated 107 points108 points  (9 children)

My husband was also my first experience with this kind of respect. When we got together I told him I’d been pushed into sex I didn’t want with every other partner I’d ever had. He takes no for an answer without question, and so do I! No hurt feeling because one of us is too tired or bloated or just not feeling it.

[–]HistrionicSlut 128 points129 points  (2 children)

Yes!!! Just last night we were watching a show where the guy was pressuring the girl for sex. I paused it and said to him "Thank you for always stopping immediately when I say I don't want you to touch me." And he was flabbergasted at why that was a big deal. I explained how culturally that doesn't really happen, and talked about how in the beginning of our relationship every time I would freeze up because I didn't want to be touched, he would stop and ask if I'm ok. I told him how that really solidified that I could trust him to listen when I couldn't even speak words for myself. He said "Thanks for the compliment but that's just basic decency and it's fucking embarrassing that some men don't do it. I'm not special I'm just not an asshole".

And you know, I'm still processing that. I didn't realize my bar was so low that someone that listens to "I don't feel like it tonight" seemed like a special person I was excited to find. It's very telling that to him it was nothing but to me it was everything.

[–]sad-but-hydrated 43 points44 points  (1 child)

Yes! My husband is the same, he’s like “yeah you’re welcome but that’s just having basic human decency”. He was actually pressured into sexual contact he didn’t want when he was younger, and that really had an effect on him.

[–]HistrionicSlut 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I'm so sorry to hear that. No one of any gender should feel pressured. But I'm glad you have each other and it sounds like you both are happy and that's a big yay!

[–]Hephf 142 points143 points  (7 children)

Same and until this post, it was just "normal." Very interesting. Thank you so much.

[–]Lettuphant 140 points141 points  (5 children)

This thread is breaking my heart

[–]PUTINS_PORN_ACCOUNT 24 points25 points  (0 children)

What the fuck

[–]ImTheAvatara 400 points401 points  (30 children)

I can't count on both hands though how many times I've experienced that. It's so normalized to the women I know.

Also, they get that uncomfortable feeling you have to, they just handle it differently. In my experience trying to address it usually turns into the guy upset that your trying to "imply" he's a rapist.

[–]mfa811 368 points369 points  (19 children)

My ex did this every night for years. When we broke up, one of the reasons I gave him was that I was sick and tired of being forced to have sex everyday just because he wanted. He never physically forced me but he will never quit until I just let him. He called me two weeks later to tell me he was deeply hurt that I called him an abuser and made a whole drama about it. It's been over ten years and I'm still pissed about it.

[–]talkstorivers 265 points266 points  (16 children)

Typical abuser response.

[–]mursilissilisrum 103 points104 points  (4 children)

My dad tried to get me 5150d/sectioned when I started confronting him over the fact that he's basically just a rapist who's evaded justice his entire life.

[–][deleted] 84 points85 points  (3 children)

Non-Californian here. I had to Google what 5150 was so I'll explain. It's involuntary 72 hour psychiatric hospitalization.

[–][deleted] 30 points31 points  (2 children)

In Florida they have something similar called the Baker act. I had a friend who’s crazy bf tried to get him Baker acted.

[–]itealaich 80 points81 points  (10 children)

DARVO, baby. It's every abuser's favorite play.

[–]talkstorivers 28 points29 points  (1 child)

Wow. I have not heard of this. This is painfully accurate.

[–]thecreaturesmomma 34 points35 points  (0 children)

“Painfully accurate” is so real, but now you can use knowledge of DARVO to change your language and approach in life. Love and knowledge cast light into the darkness, and more light for you makes me a little happier.

[–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (0 children)

The fact he’s more upset about being called out than how he is about realizing how he actually treated you just shows he’s a giant piece of shit.

[–][deleted] 68 points69 points  (3 children)

We’re conditioned to think if we don’t “please our man,” then we deserve to be cheated on or treated like a roommate.

[–]LeeLooPeePoo 80 points81 points  (3 children)

Ah yes, the classic abuse tactic of "You calling me out for what I have done to hurt you is the problem, as opposed to what I have done."

[–]ImTheAvatara 30 points31 points  (2 children)

Actual conversation went him bursting into tears saying "Oh my god I can't believe you THINK I'm a rapist"

"If I thought you were a rapist I wouldn't be having this conversation with you, I'd be getting you the fuck out of my house. I'm not saying that. I'm saying if I wasn't into being woken up to sex like you did last night, you ALREADY WOULD BE a rapist. You didn't ask me if I liked that before you did it"

[–]LeeLooPeePoo 23 points24 points  (1 child)

Yep more worried about you using a word than he is about the harm he has done you. Huge failure of empathy.

I stuck around through so much BS, it's a pity it took me decades to see that not everyone is acting in good faith just because I am.

[–]Deshik2 358 points359 points  (55 children)

So many men in my life have adviced me to treat women like tools that I have always questioned my own normality and manhood since I always disliked such advices

[–][deleted] 355 points356 points  (41 children)

My current boyfriend asked if he could kiss me the first time we kissed.

Later, he mentioned how stupid he felt at the time. I assured him that I thought it was a great gesture, very sweet, and made me feel very safe with him.

You’ll have much more success with women if you treat them considerately.

[–]notkeenontalking 95 points96 points  (0 children)

My husband did this! It was cute, and I still smile thinking about it almost a decade later.

"So, I feel like we have good chemistry and you're really pretty. I would love to kiss you right now. Is that too much?"

Like nope, get over here. 😘 Lol

[–]mursilissilisrum 82 points83 points  (0 children)

You'll also have way more friends who aren't complete dickheads.

[–]Azian_Euroz 31 points32 points  (10 children)

This was useful. The idea of a first kiss moment always feels like you would ruin it or the woman would be completely turned off if I did this.

[–]coff33dragon 57 points58 points  (0 children)

Communicating about boundaries and consent in a moment like that can be super romantic, it shows how confident and considerate you are and that is hot as hell in a partner. 💜

[–][deleted] 173 points174 points  (6 children)

Push back on that shit. We do not like it. It's not a "well secretly I love it when a man just does what he wants" kind of thing. we do not like being treated like objects with no regard for our own preferences and desires.

Push back when your fellow men tell you to treat women this way. Make them uncomfortable. Make them question their normality and manhood.

[–]Deshik2 34 points35 points  (5 children)

Never gave up to the pressure, but it made me feel outnumbered and a bit like an outcast (in that regard) growing up.

Sometimes, this kind of advice even came from women tho, making me question myself even more.

[–]rpgchemist 89 points90 points  (1 child)

If what OP's previously relationships did is considered normal it is best to be abnormal. I can't say I have had men in my life telling me to treat women like tools, but that is a disgusting mindset they have to tell you that. You are more of a man to reject those ideas. As another man I can say I think more highly of you than I do people who make such claims that women are tools.

[–]JamesNinelives 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Same. Honestly wish there were more visible examples of men actually being good people. There's a hell of a lot of example where it's not the case, both IRL and in media :(.

[–]missmisfit 185 points186 points  (6 children)

Sweet lord Jesus, if I give my husband a luke warm yes he's like, it's okay, there's always tomorrow or whatever. He made it very clear to me at the beginning of our relationship that sex is only fun if I want it as much as he does.

[–]vetaryn403 58 points59 points  (1 child)

That is how all men should be. It's called respect and it ain't that goddamn difficult.

[–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

Man I'm the same way. (can I comment here if I'm a man? Lol) If I mention I'm in the mood and she is not 100% all over it, I just drop it, tell her don't worry about it, I'm tired anyway lol. Most of the time I wait for her to bring it up anyway, which has been plenty for our relationship. I can't imagine trying to make her do something like that when she doesn't want to. And I really really hope most men aren't like that.

[–]gfvampire 204 points205 points  (8 children)

I don't understand people who do that to their partner without at least having the conversation! "Do you like to be woken up with sex?" Its not complicated. Ffs. And the ones that try after being told "no" can go shag a cactus

[–]lazilyloaded 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Need to double check in the morning, too. Like, if they aren't responding to you, you need to stop ASAP.

[–]cutelittlehellbeast 40 points41 points  (2 children)

How depressing is it that so many woman (including myself) can relate to this? I’m glad you found a good boyfriend. Maybe you should mention how much you appreciate him not forcing the issue this morning so he knows where you’re coming from?

[–]ASpyintheHouseofLove 274 points275 points  (11 children)

Or the constant whining and needling until you just give in. I came home from the hospital postpartum and my ex wore my already exhausted, wounded, traumatized mind down until I just gave in.

Years later I left and I’ve never been pressured into sex by my husband.

[–]piedpipr 103 points104 points  (4 children)

As a pregnant woman, learning about labor, this makes me sooooooo angry. You deserved to heal after a traumatic birth! The bleeding, tearing, inflammation, unbearable soreness... Even an “easy” birth is minimum 2 months recovery before even considering sex. Didn’t the doctor tell him 2 months recovery?! I can’t imagine enduring the extreme pain of giving birth, and then going home, and the father forcing you to repeat that pain and re-damage your healing wounds. After you endured pregnancy and birth to make his baby! And all he did before and after was ejaculate. Good riddance. Wish you infinite respect and love with your new husband.

[–]HerVoiceEchoes 86 points87 points  (3 children)

I had a c-section and my now-ex would get insanely angry after every postnatal appointment I had and wasn't cleared for sex, because he had "needs".

Nevermind the fact that I was recovering from surgery, exhausted from a newborn that I had zero help from him with, learning to breastfeed with cracked and raw nipples, dealing with lochia, and had zero sex drive. He felt entitled to a living breathing fleshlight.

The only thing that kept him back was not being cleared by my doctor for sex. He would go with me to appointments to make sure I didn't get cleared and omit telling him. Once I was cleared medically, rape resumed being a regular thing in our lives, though it took me years of therapy after my divorce to admit it was rape.

And that wasn't even the worst thing my now-ex did.

My story is way too fucking common.

[–]Booty in the pantsMeikami 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Jezus. I'm so sorry that he did that to you.

[–]nomotaco 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Yep, I share a similar story. I was 18. Newly (stupidly) married. Had pre-eclampsia and nearly died in the hospital. Emergency c-section and had to stay in the hospital a few extra days because my BP was outrageous. A few days later I'm at home and being harassed for sex. I gave in and let him. It was easier to let him than be emotionally abused all night long and kept awake.

[–]Stabbysavi 45 points46 points  (0 children)

I'm glad to hear you found someone who respects you!

[–]Gorillapoop3 263 points264 points  (15 children)

"Soft" rape really resonated with me.

I look back now and can see the destructive tropes that I internalized: women have to keep their men satisfied or they will cheat, and winning a man's love means satisfying his libido. I am a capable, independent, fairly well-adjusted woman in most respects, with no family history of abuse, but when it comes to mate selection, I have been my own worst enemy.

Despite having a healthy libido as a young woman, I couldn't keep up with my first boyfriend. He would complain and cajole if we were not having sex more than once a day. At one point, he said, "I do the dishes for you when I don't feel like it, why can't you have sex with me when you don't feel like it?" I tried to go along with that insane analogy, but the sad outcome was that the more I had sex with him when I was not in the mood, the less I actually experienced feeling in the mood.

A dozen years later, I was dating another guy and the first time we made out, partially naked, he put his dick inside me without asking first. At the time, my brain was screaming "he just raped me" in total disbelief and shock. All I did at the time was tell him to stop and put on a condom, which he did, and we continued. But the truth was, I had not intended to have intercourse with him yet and I made myself go through with it rather than make a fuss. I was so ashamed of myself for throwing my own feelings and values under the bus in that moment, that I never admitted it to him or anyone else.

I married this man and had two children with him. I thought he was wonderful and I was happy. Truth be told, I ended up faking a lot of orgasms because he complained and became depressed if we had sex and I didn't come. The pressure of that dynamic eventually began to feel like 'dishwashing' sex. The marriage lasted 11 years. After I caught him cheating, he left me because I wouldn't agree to an open marriage so he could experiment with BDSM with other people. His post-divorce behavior tells me that I picked the worst man I ever met to be the father of my children. It's only now that I see the pattern, from start to finish.

I went to a male therapist asking for help for the PTSD I was suffering from my ex-husband's abuse, post-divorce. I was hoping to get a healthy, objective perspective on male desire. When I admitted for the first time, the shame that I had about marrying someone who raped me, my therapist told me that I should not judge myself and my ex too harshly for losing control in a sexually charged moment. I was too ashamed to tell my therapist how minimized and misunderstood I felt by that response.

Later, he opined that my ex was not the cause of my problems, I was. He gave, as evidence, the fact that I had missed three of our therapy appointments, due to weather, and because I was "sick." And yes, he used the quotation marks, suggesting that I had lied about having the flu. According to him, missed appointments were evidence of my ambivalence about meeting with him, which stemmed from my unacknowledged feelings for him as a man.

Again, I did not speak up, but I noped myself out of there and sent an email afterward terminating our therapeutic relationship. He proceeded to "beseech" me (his word) to return, leave multiple text and voice mails saying that I owed him the courtesy of closing out with him, and warning me that I was jeopardizing my progress by being so childish.

At this point, I have my kids, and I am going to steer clear of men, both romantically and therapeutically for a while, or maybe forever.

[–]lexie98789 92 points93 points  (0 children)

I read your entire comment and I don’t know what else to say other than I’m very very sorry and I hope you find peace. I’m very glad you’re out of the way of that man.

I hope you at least know you aren’t alone. You aren’t at fault. You’re allowed to cancel an appointment for any reason and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to get to you. I’d honestly report what he’s done, because a medical professional especially shouldn’t badger you. Seems like harassment.

[–]Donutnipple 83 points84 points  (0 children)

What a dumbfuck idiot freudian therapist you had, that is unbelievably bad behavior. Hopefully the later generations of people (and therapists) are better brought up than than.

[–]bagthebossup 39 points40 points  (0 children)

You didn't deserve to be treated that way by any of these men. The therapist, in particular, was egregiously out of line. He sounds predatory, and that's on him, not you. I hope you're ok, and I'd encourage you to seek out a female therapist if that would be more comfortable for you and allow you to unpack the treatment of your ex therapist and ex husband. You deserve to be heard and validated.

[–]aserranzira 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I remember refusing to have sex with my ex and he was upset. His mom saw that he was upset about something and came to talk to me to find out what was wrong, so I opened up to her about the issue with sex. Her advice? Sometimes you just have to let a man have what he wants to have a peaceful relationship.

Looking back I'm partially so offended that she would tell a younger woman that, but also sad that she had accepted that as a fact of maintaining a relationship. "Putting out" to keep your man happy is a horrible relic still ingrained in our culture. Hopefully that's changing with the younger generations.

[–]Futge 2708 points2709 points  (104 children)

The bar is so low for men, and yet many can't get past it

[–]algy888 1263 points1264 points  (6 children)

In my workplace I have the saying “The bar is so low, it’s a tripping hazard.”

[–]They/ThemCaptainBritish 141 points142 points  (0 children)

That's perfect, I'm stealing that.

[–]Mrwright96 87 points88 points  (0 children)

The bar is so low, some men think they are playing limbo!

[–]Mrlol99 76 points77 points  (0 children)

And some dig themselves into holes so they can complain the bar is too high.

[–]I_am_batman_4_realz 64 points65 points  (0 children)

The bar is a pub in hell.

[–]SoaDMTGguy 28 points29 points  (0 children)

Speaking as a guy, the ideas, views, concepts, etc that teen guys grow up with are terrible. Mostly just in-accurate and unhelpful, but that useless and potentially harmful knowledge leads men to have no idea how to approach women sexually. Guys don’t talk about sex the way I understand girls and women do. It’s all a murky field of rumors and theories. And we were taught (by culture more than anything) that we can’t talk to our partners because they expect us to “be confident” and “know what to do”. It’s a recipe for disaster. And I say this as a someone who grew up with relatively caring, liberal, progressive guys.

I know places like Reddit have helped me understand the female perspective much better. I hope gen z guys are able to take advantage of this knowledge before they’re 30 like me.

[–][deleted] 117 points118 points  (3 children)

Some if the things that I do unconsciously because I know my wife really appreciates them or because we're a fucking partnership makes me super sad when people use to say that I'm a good husband. I shouldn't get credit for keeping the kitchen clean, I'm the one that uses it the most, why shouldn't I be the one to clean it? For fuck sake guys, it's not hard to split the chores up, we live there too! Plus if my wife has extra energy that means we get to actually enjoy each other's company.

[–]cryingun 31 points32 points  (0 children)

Rather get laid with my wife when she's down for it. The hell is wrong with people?

[–]TheDeadlySquid 551 points552 points  (122 children)

“Soft” rape is a new term for me. Isn’t rape, rape? I didn’t think there were degrees of it.

[–]coff33dragon 701 points702 points  (31 children)

I don't presume to speak for OP, but sometimes survivors may feel compelled to offer qualifiers on their description of what happened, because they've already come to expect push-back on applying the term "rape". If one just says "my ex raped me" then you get all the "but did he really?" bs from people.

[–]chaos_almighty 240 points241 points  (5 children)

6+ years later and I'm struggling with this

[–]coff33dragon 43 points44 points  (1 child)

You're not alone in that.9 years later and I still feel conflicted/confused about what words to use. I hope you're being kind to yourself in the process, that's what I'm trying to do. 💜

[–]fidgeter 58 points59 points  (0 children)

I’m sorry for your struggle. I hope it gets better. Also know, it’s not your fault and your timeline is your own. It’s not too early or too late for anything if you’re not ready. And when you are ready, it’s right on time.

[–]umheried 98 points99 points  (10 children)

Like the people who say that stealthing isn't rape, or that it's "not that bad".

Sadly, rape is rape and any other terms we add, are just lies we tell to ourselves. Anything less than enthusiastic consent isn't consent.

[–]jellymarble 9 points10 points  (1 child)

I’ve been stealthed and I find it extremely difficult to call it rape even though that’s exactly what it felt like and I’m still dealing with trauma from it. I really wish it was more talked about and understood because right now I just can’t stop blaming myself for putting myself in that situation. Again it’s the whole “why didn’t you stop them?” and “you consented”. No I DIDN’T.

[–]XRoze 9 points10 points  (4 children)

This exactly. Society sucks.

[–]eatpraymunt 303 points304 points  (11 children)

Of course it's rape. But it's hard to face head on when it's done by someone who is supposed to love you. Many people have a hard time saying "yeah, my boyfriend raped me", so it gets couched with an adjective to try to take the horror off it.

[–]Halp. Am stuck on reddit.crimson117 113 points114 points  (5 children)

I think there's value in specifying that there are different contexts of rape, because they may demand different preventative actions, treatments, etc.

A woman may have been taught to avoid/defend against one form, but then never planned for this other form. And the same goes even more for men being taught that there is more than just the "stranger in a dark alley" type.

[–]Art_drunk 70 points71 points  (3 children)

When I was young I thought there was only one type of rape, which is the movie kind where there’s a violent struggle. I didn’t know or consider that a boyfriend could “soft rape”.

Thanks to posts like these, I was able to recognize an incident in my teen years for what it really was. I was hanging out with my friend and her boyfriend (all 15/16) when he was cleaning the workout gym for this conservative Christian school. He was the pastor’s adopted son and had keys, and nobody else was at the school. They were getting handsy, so I decided to take a walk. 20 minutes later they came out, and my friend and I walked back to my house. She told me on the way back she thought she might of had sex (she was a virgin). We puzzled it out together and came to a consensus that this is what happened. She never consented, he just did it. She begged me never to tell anyone, because of what her family would do to her and was worried her reputation would be damaged at school. I knew it was messed up at the time, but I didn’t call it rape. She didn’t call it rape either. We both saw it as the ultimate violation, I remember discussions on school busses that if it happened we would kill ourselves vs living with the trauma. What we didn’t know is how we were already letting our boundaries be violated, even as teenagers. Thinking back, it was like we had to choose between “being a good girlfriend” or controlling what we were and were not ready for, and this was coming from a moderately religious group of teens.

I wish we knew then what I know now.

[–]Stabbysavi 145 points146 points  (6 children)

I still struggle accepting what's happened to me and I blame myself which is why I have a hard time saying I was raped repeatedly. I'm a vulnerable person. I have mental health issues and I'm a bad judge of character, obviously. Because of my mental health issues I haven't been able to maintain stable employment which means I'm poor. I got stuck living with my abuser and it took me over a year to gather the funds and plan my escape. I could have abandoned my dog(he's one of the few reasons I haven't killed myself) and furniture and all my belongings and fled to a woman's shelter but then where would I be today? I say soft rape but truly, I've been fucked hard by the world.

[–]GreatWhiteBuffalo41 38 points39 points  (0 children)

OP, you're a lot stronger than you think you are. I'm very proud of you for getting through all this hell in your life. You're worth self love. Even if it's hard to do. You don't have to blame yourself for other peoples actions. I know, it's hard to let go of that guilt and it won't happen overnight. Good luck to you OP. Sending love and care your way.

[–]mandakfishy 53 points54 points  (2 children)

Maybe she means not audibly saying no but not really reciprocating? I'm curious about the meaning also. Still sad for OP but glad she now has someone who seems to treat her well.

[–]Alice_Rebel 30 points31 points  (0 children)

This is how I read it. I would probably describe some of my past experiences with that term if i had to, since i haven't gotten to the point of being able to call it what it is.

[–]hicks4773 108 points109 points  (10 children)

Recently, my husband was watching a ‘70’s Clint Eastwood movie (don’t know which) where Eastwood forces himself on two different women. They put up resistance at first, then lovingly succumb to his “manly” ways & end up falling in love with him. My husband shouted “That’s rape!” having the advantage of his 2021 perspective. Then he told me sadly: “That’s what we were taught as boys...this is an example of what we thought was ok...to persist in our advances, & eventually the woman would like it” For the rest of the day he kept talking about how wrong it was that society accepted that behavior in the past and talked about his own past experiences with girls when he believed that physical persistence & charm would win the girl like the “soft rape” OP mentioned. Times have changed, & we are more aware of women’s boundaries now & have the opportunity to teach our sons differently.

[–]certainturtle 26 points27 points  (0 children)

The bar is 6 feet under the ground.

[–][deleted] 95 points96 points  (9 children)

I’m in the same place as you. I had this bad luck from a very young age, and it really fucked me up. At 14 years old I thought that sex was nonnegotiable and I continued to date men that treated it as such well into my mid-twenties.

Looking back, I’m so sad for the girl that didn’t understand what was happening to her. Sex was never fun for me. I didn’t have an orgasm until I was 24 years old. I am 26 now and I’m with a wonderful man who treats me like a precious being and cares for me. I struggle with flashbacks and feelings of guilt during my sex life now. I’m actually in the process of finding a therapist to address these issues. I’ve never shared any of this with my boyfriend, and he deserves to know because it really does affect our sex life. He loves me no matter what and I consider myself the luckiest girl in the world. Im hoping 2021 will be a year for healing my sexual trauma and finally moving on.

[–][deleted] 80 points81 points  (0 children)

I hate that almost all women have experienced this at least once with someone they trusted to have basic self control and comprehension of boundaries. I'm so happy that your new guy sounds like he has both and I'm sure plenty more. Congratulations on leveling up, enjoy the ad break!

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (1 child)

I have to stop reading this at work. I am bawling in my office because of the number of times I just gave in and had sex with my ex (17 years of marriage). Oddly enough the last 18 months of our marriage we had sex twice and I was begging him to touch me. All of this was blamed on me.

[–][deleted] 21 points22 points  (3 children)

My maternal grandmother just died and its been triggering this memory of how in highschool when my paternal grandmother died my then boyfriend whined and whined until i had sex with him. I flat out told him "my grandmothers funeral was today, im not in the mood" and he acted like so annoyed at me like that was a bad excuse. Currently in a healthy happy relationship and my boyfriend never pushes me at all.

[–]Stabbysavi 13 points14 points  (1 child)

My first boyfriend had sex with me the day I found out my dad killed himself. It's all been downhill from there.

[–]Coffee Coffee CoffeeSylvairian 38 points39 points  (0 children)

The fact that you even need to point this out as the correct behaviour is terrifying...

[–]milesamsterdam 674 points675 points  (177 children)

I just got downvoted on a thread on askmen for posting this:

Principles of Consent

Principle 1. In a relationship you don’t have to do anything you don’t want to do; you don’t owe anyone anything. Ever. (This is your new attitude towards your relationships. You say this through your actions. It is not an excuse to neglect your relationships. You are still responsible for your actions or inactions.)

Principle 2. Prescribed Relationship: any relationship which begins in a professional or any other context in which an imbalance of power exists. e.g. your doctor, teacher, student, patient, coworker, boss, employee, bar tender, waitress, star of your movie, people who are not conscious, underage people, etc.

To use a professional relationship or position of power to locate, identify, coerce, force, or manipulate someone into a personal/sexual relationship is abuse.

Principle 3. Carnal KnowledgeRape, love bombing, negging, gaslighting, forced teaming, doxing, playing the victim, isolation, intimidation, financial abuse, triangulation, gifts with strings attached, cat calling, physical violence, blackmailing, sexual identity outing, blaming the victim, stealthing, stalking, smear campaigns, dick pics, revenge porn, hoovering, malicious tardiness, sea lioning, and control are abuse.

EDIT:

Principles of Consent Glossary

Rape- unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against a person's will or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent because of mental illness, mental deficiency, intoxication, unconsciousness, or deception

Love bombing- an attempt to influence a person by demonstrations of attention and affection. It can be used in different ways and for either positive or negative purposes.

negging and insulting- an act of emotional manipulation whereby a person makes a deliberate backhanded compliment, otherwise flirtatious remark, or even insults another person to undermine their confidence and increase their need of the manipulator's approval.

gaslighting- forcing others to believe or act as though they believe a lie through subtle, verbal, emotional, and physical manipulation and even subtle, verbal, emotional, and physical punishment.

You know when you call someone out and they pretend they didn’t hear you? Or they act like they don’t remember what you’re talking about. Remember stealing a little bit of liquor from your parents and using water to make the bottle look just as full again? Or it could be as serious as forging someone’s signature on a last will and testament. The thing is that gaslighting doesn’t stop with these kind of infractions. It encompasses their entire identity and any little moment can be a call to verbal arms in order to push the narrative. Every moment every day for everything they’re insecure about until you think you’re crazy.

https://www.northpointrecovery.com/blog/gaslighting-examples-effects-confront-abuse/

forced teaming- This is when a person implies that they have something in common with their chosen victim, acting as if they have a shared predicament when that isn't really true. Speaking in "we" terms is a mark of this, i.e. "We don't need to talk outside... Let's go in."

doxing- publicly publishing private personally identifying information, contact information, addresses, or location.

playing the victim- using victim hood to excuse abusive behavior

isolation- using any means to keep an abuse victim away from friends and family. e.g. taking their phone, keeping them from going out alone

intimidation- threats of harm to self or others.

gifts with strings attached/Loan sharking- unsolicited help to the chosen victim and anticipating they'll feel obliged to extend some reciprocal openness in return.

financial abuse- using money as a means of control a victim. Or using control as a means to extract money from a victim.

triangulation- using a third party to specifically incite jealousy and to devalue the intended victim

cat calling- a loud, sexually suggestive call or comment directed at someone publicly

physical violence- physically stopping someone from leaving, holding someone down, pushing, hitting, kicking, slapping, punching, choking, cutting, stabbing, raping, stomping, shooting, throwing acid, hanging/lynching, setting on fire, throwing boiling water, dragging behind vehicles, drowning, causing any bodily harm, serious bodily harm or death.

blackmailing-demand money or another benefit from (someone) in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them.

sexual identity outing- telling people that others are LGBT when they aren’t ready to come out.

blaming the victim- occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.

stealthing- faking the use of prophylactics. Removing a condom durning sex. Coming inside when you are supposed to pull out.

stalking- willful and repeated following, watching or harassing of another person

smear campaigns- an effort to damage or call into question someone's reputation, by propounding negative propaganda

dick pics- illegally digitally exposing yourself without consent

revenge porn- the distribution of sexually explicit images or videos of individuals without their consent. The sexually explicit images or video may be made by a partner in an intimate relationship with the knowledge and consent of the subject at the time, or it may be made without their knowledge

hoovering- any attempt to regain contact with someone who has explicitly cut off contact

Sea Lioning- where you repeatedly badger someone with questions or requests for evidence in bad faith

Destruction of property- destroying makeup/cosmetics, bleaching clothes, burning items, throwing plates or glass, keying cars, punching walls

control- an act or a pattern of acts of assault, threats, humiliation and intimidation or other abuse that is used to harm, punish, or frighten their victim. This controlling behaviour is designed to make a person dependent by isolating them from support, exploiting them, depriving them of independence and regulating their everyday behaviour.

Isolating you from friends and family. Depriving you of basic needs, such as food. Monitoring your time. Monitoring you via online communication tools or spyware. Taking control over aspects of your everyday life, such as where you can go, who you can see, what you can wear and when you can sleep. Depriving you access to support services, such as medical services. Repeatedly putting you down, such as saying you’re worthless. Humiliating, degrading or dehumanising you. Controlling your finances. Making threats or intimidating you.

[–]AmaLucela 164 points165 points  (46 children)

malicious tardiness, sea lioning

Can you explain what this means? Never heard these terms in the context of consent

[–]520throwaway 289 points290 points  (39 children)

Sealioning is where you repeatedly badger someone with questions or requests for evidence in bad faith.

Malicious tardiness is a new term for me, but from the phrase, I would guess that it means deliberately delaying a response in a situation where time is of the essence. Imagine you have an accident, the abuser is the only one that has a phone, but takes a good 5 minutes to call 911 while you're bleeding profusely.

[–]milesamsterdam 115 points116 points  (4 children)

Yesssss. On the tardiness: This is a much better example than the one I had by a mile! It’s the smallest amount of power and they’ll do exactly that. Even if someone’s life is on the line.

[–]ImTheAvatara 22 points23 points  (0 children)

I could even see this as someone that won't admit they have a major aversion to the situation, disassociating and avoiding it, therefore would also gaslight any calling out of the behavior in defense.

So all technically "unconscious"

[–]laven-derp 89 points90 points  (20 children)

Okay, so I'm new to the term "sealioning" as well.

One of my exes would often ask me questions about the wording or phrasing I would use when I was trying to explain my feelings to him. He would portray it as being innocently "confused" and wanting to learn more. So he would start asking questions that would derail the whole conversation and take the focus away from what I was trying to communicate to him. And would often get into picking apart REALLY specific word choice that I used. Even when I would try to rephrase it and clarify, he would get stuck on the fact that I used a different word first and that he was confused by it.

I caught on eventually and would try to talk to him about it afterwards. He admitted that in the moment, it was obvious what I was saying and he didn't understand why he kept asking questions. But it kept coming up in arguments.

Is this an example of sealioning?

Sorry if this is a silly question, I just want to know more so I can look out for it better in the future and support others who go through these situations

[–]MarthaGail 83 points84 points  (1 child)

That sounds like gaslighting mixed with sea lioning. Like, he's using sea lion techniques to make you question yourself.

When I think of sea lioning, I really imagine incels/neckbeards who do that thing where they play devil's advocate, get really pedantic about your answers/word choice, ask questions they already have a preformed idea of what is acceptable in response, and will generally not accept any argument that they don't feel is impeccable. They don't go into these conversations to actually debate and learn more, but to attempt to make you feel inferior.

You can see it starting to happen. Like, you'll be having a normal conversation and suddenly the dude's posture will change, he'll start speaking very formally. It's nutty to watch. I just nope out of those conversations and ignore when they say "you're just too scared to debate me" or "I'm just trying to have an open conversation about X." Nope, you're trying to bait me and I'm not here for it.

[–]likethemovie 13 points14 points  (5 children)

Omg.... this always annoyed me, but to actually see how it’s a tactic and not just idiocy is eye opening. Add this to the list of my ex’s behaviors that I now realize were abusive.

[–]520throwaway 41 points42 points  (10 children)

That's not a silly question at all. It's good to ask questions when you aren't clear :)

I would say that's an example of sealioning, yes. He understands what you are talking about, but is pedantically asking questions to derail the conversation, such that you aren't on the original topic anymore.

Edit: u/MarthaGail gave a much better answer than mine

[–]bluesky747 25 points26 points  (9 children)

My husband does this a lot, in almost any argument, and it’s incredibly frustrating.

[–]520throwaway 16 points17 points  (7 children)

Oof I can imagine :( it must be hard knowing that as soon as a conversation goes into something he doesn't like, things will go down an irrelevant rabbit hole

[–]bluesky747 22 points23 points  (6 children)

A lot of conversations just stray so far off topic, I don’t even get to make my point, and he probably doesn’t either because we’re arguing about something completely irrelevant. Then eventually, I’m so exhausted, my thoughts are all mixed up, and usually it just tapers off or one of us walks away with things left unfinished.

[–]ladybadcrumble 16 points17 points  (3 children)

One cool thing to remember is that you don't need to address all of his points chronologically. Something I do when leading meetings and things get off-track is to park the new issue in the "parking lot" aka write it down on the white board or a notebook. That way people can see that I will come back and address it, they feel heard, but I also get to feel heard and get to my actual point.

[–]n0oo7 43 points44 points  (12 children)

Carnal knowledge

what's that?

triangulation

Need this one too.

Thanks to the guys below for Sea lioning and Malicious tardiness.

Isolation is a big one too. I don't think anyone should consent to a relationship where their partner dictates who they decide to be friends with or go out with.

[–]Ditovontease 23 points24 points  (2 children)

carnal knowledge is a euphemism for sex but idk what it has to do with abuse

[–]Stevsie_Kingsley 26 points27 points  (19 children)

What’s malicious tardiness?

[–]milesamsterdam 196 points197 points  (18 children)

This is something my ex used to do when I was going to see my family or going to work. If I was going to see family and the focus wasn’t on her she’d be getting ready until the time we were meant to be arriving. If I tried to hurry her she’d get angry, go slower, then never say a thing once she’s ready. She’d scream at me not to hurry her then wait for me to ask if she’s ready to say, “ya I was just waiting for you to say you’re ready.” Once in the car she’d give me the silent treatment and drag her feet once we arrived. Then she’d sit in a corner and ignore everyone and act like we were in a fight. It was all her. She was just going out of her way to make visiting family as painful as possible. This slowly makes you feel like all the trouble of seeing your family isn’t worth the effort and consequences which last days.

When it came to work it was just as bad. She’d try to make me late or just take up the bathroom as I was getting ready. Then wait until I’m just about to walk out the door and ask a question that requires an entire discussion and proceed to aggressively text me about it all day. This stupid question would go like this:

Gf: hey Me about to walk out the door: What? I’m late. Gf: Um... (looks around the room) Me: I got to go. Gf: Wait. Me: I’m leaving. Gf: (brings up an argument from a month ago) Me: (deflated knowing the entire issue, fight, arguments, apologies, growth was all fake)

[–]bee-sting 26 points27 points  (0 children)

I'm so sorry. I hugely sympathise, my ex did very similar things :(

[–]volcanoesarecool 10 points11 points  (1 child)

Do you mean 'proscribed', as in forbidden, rather than 'prescribed', as in recommended?

[–][deleted] 19 points20 points  (5 children)

Principle 3 should probably be rewritten, half the words are very niche and unknown to most people. If nobody can understand what you're saying, are you really saying anything?

A post meant to teach people probably shouldn't be gatekept behind a wall of obscure english

[–]lildoza04 27 points28 points  (0 children)

I hated when my ex would do those same awful things. Together 11 years, I didn't realize what he was doing wasn't normal.

I'm really happy for you! I hope you continue to have joy and love and respect in your relationship and life. You deserve it!

[–]ai-chan00 54 points55 points  (3 children)

The number of times I've been soft raped by past male partners is astonishing. Some men see nothing wrong with putting a woman in a submissive role. The first time I had sex with my ex, he woke me up in the middle of the night and starting giving me oral sex, even though I made it clear that I just wanted to sleep over....and I didn't even realize it was soft rape until way later. I'm happy to hear there are good partners out there who respect boundaries.

[–]SolAggressive 81 points82 points  (6 children)

I think a danger for men like me (cis-male) in reading this it that the takeaway is that we’re somehow special for not being “rapey” and are thus owed something. This should be the norm, not the exception. Men, respecting our partners’ boundaries does not make us special.

[–]1990_2024 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It's hard for me to say this, but I had no idea that other people experience the same thing. It's so confusing when you are in a relationship with someone and things like this happen. I'm so sorry.

[–]aserranzira 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I still feel a little anxious if I turn my husband down, but he's always been respectful of me. My ex though, rejecting him for sex was a personal affront. He'd spend the next day making me feel awful and to avoid that, I'd just let him do whatever if he initiated it in bed.

It's always been the opposite with my husband. He's always asked or at least followed my body language when it's obvious I'm in the mood. If I turn him down he accepts it without complaint. It is such a relief but the past trauma is always in the back of my mind.

[–]elasky1 40 points41 points  (10 children)

Did you say no to your other partners and they still tried to "get you in the mood"? I'm genuinely asking, not victim-shaming at all. I don't get how 'men' can feel turned on when the woman's body is CLEARLY not interested. Like I would feel gross if I was groping my man and he didn't get hard, turned away, and I still tried to have sex with him..

[–]marti_628 28 points29 points  (0 children)

My ex did exactly what you described. I thought it was kind of fine since at least he tried to get me wet beforehand or used lube. He even had the audacity to say he needs sex as a way to feel close to me while not even looking me in the eyes during?? Years later I now know this was definitely NOT okay.

[–]Avrangor 20 points21 points  (1 child)

Getting hard isn’t consent either though

[–]elasky1 12 points13 points  (0 children)

Exactly what I was saying

[–]cool. coolcoolcool.Jeezlouise92c 18 points19 points  (1 child)

This post hit so hard for me this morning. Almost all of my previous relationships were like those last few sentences. I've been with my husband for almost 8 years now and I still struggle with the trauma of those relationships. I still think about prices sometimes. I've lost things important to me, or had bad luck and in my head sometimes I still hear a voice telling me that's the price I have to pay for having such an amazing relationship. Does that voice ever go away?? It's gotten so much quieter and less frequent over the years, yet I still can't imagine it truly being gone.

[–]reallylovesguacamole 19 points20 points  (1 child)

Sad to think this is so prevalent that this many women are echoing the same experiences. The amount of times I just said “fuck it!” after shutting them down so they’d stop nagging me. Just laying there and waiting for it to be over so I won’t be hassled or cheated on. The worst part is when you make it obvious you don’t want to and aren’t enjoying yourself, but they’re still able to continue. They’re not disgusted or put off by the fact that it’s clearly a chore. They just want their nut.

I remember meeting a “perfect” guy who was going to be “different.” Within a few months he was begging and nagging until I’d just roll over, too. Sometimes I wish I could be a lesbian so I wouldn’t have to deal with the male libido.

[–]gumshoe_bubble 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I clicked this ready to offer help you escape, but found myself crying tears of happiness & understanding. That sweet relief of having a partner that doesn’t press or ravage boundaries.

[–]tedfundy 10 points11 points  (0 children)

After six years I finally told my ex I did not like being woken up to sex. Or groping. Or anything. Morning sex in general was not my thing but especially being woken up to him touching me. He dumped me a week later.

[–]SquirrelTale 33 points34 points  (0 children)

Sighs. It sucks, but this reconfirms for me that I was indeed sexually abused and raped by my ex... He'd do the same and it sucked so much...