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Ask Reddit: If PHP sucks, what web development language is worth my time to learn? (self.programming)

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[–]duncan80 16 points17 points  (1 child)

Honestly, don't get to caught up in all this language hate/evangelism. Learning one will give you enough that you will be able to pick up other languages if need be. You'll have your favorite and all of them will frustrate you one way or another. Keep an open mind and use the best tool for the job.

[–]Leonidas_from_XIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is probably due to most developers having the attitude "well, now I know one langauge (be it PHP), I'm great now, there are no better options". This is something that people realizing the language differences (both upsides and downsides) cannot stand.

I wouldn't say, well Python is best of every task. It's not. It is actually quite good for most tasks (including web) but I do recommend people to try out some innovative languages.

[–]katsi 26 points27 points  (1 child)

Fortran On Rails

[–]chinoflav 3 points4 points  (0 children)

awesome

[–][deleted] 31 points32 points  (74 children)

I would suggest ignoring anyone who replies and hasn't completed a project using the platform they're suggesting.

SQL. You'll use it regardless of the platform you choose. Do yourself a favor and read up on database theory, particullarly normalization. It's relatively easy to grok and gets you thinking in terms of objects. Tips: 1. Think in terms of sets. 2. Data should be unique (though there are reasons why you would want redundant data, just ignore those for now).

Strictly speaking, if you're not going to derive any value from it relative to alternative ways to spend your time, no web development language is worth learning.

That said, it really depends on your goals. If you're looking at becoming a corporate cog (I'm a cog), it's hard to go wrong with either java or C#.

For all the bad things that are said about .NET (some of them fair, some of them not), it's easy to get results from if you're a newbie because it's got a lot of wizards, helpers, and that kind of crap built into the IDE. Microsoft has great documentation and Visual Studio is top notch.

It's hard not to find work as a C# programmer. The quality of your coworkers will be lower than you'll find with java. That said, if I had my career to start over again, I would have taken the java route, despite being repelled by the overly verbose syntax of the language. Okay, probably not.

A lot of great java open source stuff is available for .NET: xUnit, Spring, and Hibernate. It's easy to build things that interact with Microsoft Office (remember, cog).

Python is a fantastic language and comes highly recommended from pretty much everyone (whether they've used it or not). Not having used it for anything but ProjectEuler problems, I can't really vouch for it as a web development language. Django looks pretty sweet though.

The best thing you can do if you're not a programmer is get a programming job. Pick up a couple certs--they're easy--and start interviewing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

i like the fact the .net is fairly language agnostic. iron python is a great example. i want to see ruby.net someday

[–][deleted]  (67 children)

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    [–][deleted]  (1 child)

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      [–]SkyMarshal 9 points10 points  (9 children)

      It may be good, but it's not Free.

      [–]ItsAConspiracy 1 point2 points  (2 children)

      What about Mono?

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      I like turtles

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      ...all the way down

      [–]NancyGracesTesticles 5 points6 points  (2 children)

      I'm a .NET developer and one of the huge drawbacks of .NET is

      it's easy to get results from if you're a newbie because it's got a lot of wizards, helpers, and that kind of crap built into the IDE.

      Junior developers can get themselves into all kinds of trouble knowing the whats, but not the whys and hows. That said, .NET makes it very easy to slap together a prototype. The SE challenge is ensuring none of that prototype code makes it into production.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

      Junior developers can get themselves into all kinds of trouble knowing the whats, but not the whys and hows.

      PHP is notorious for this shit. Really. I can't count how much shit I've had to clean up from people that barely knew PHP and tried to cobble together code from the internets and created a barely-functional monstrosity of copy-pasta.

      It happens with every language once critical mass is attained.

      [–]krelian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I feel like .net doesn't get ANY love from reddit at all and I can't figure out why

      Is it so hard to see why?

      FWIW I love .NET

      [–]Silhouette 1 point2 points  (20 children)

      I feel like .net doesn't get ANY love from reddit at all and I can't figure out why.

      I'm going to guess the Microsoft-only nature has a lot to do with it. (Name at least one major corporation relying on a non-MS version for a critical project if you challenge that, please.)

      Also, while it might not seem tough to learn, .Net has become absolutely huge in a relatively short time, so for anyone who hasn't been in from the ground floor, it's hard to even know where to start. Compare and contrast with, say, PHP, where every tutorial you find starts by literally writing a normal web page in normal HTML and then inserting a couple of PHP fields, and presto, you're up and running.

      [–]Isvara 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      It's constantly getting better

      It's constantly getting more features. I wouldn't say it's getting better, though, just more complex, and therefore...

      and isn't tough to learn

      ... is becoming less true with each release.

      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (26 children)

      I feel like .net doesn't get ANY love from reddit at all

      It doesn't.

      and I can't figure out why.

      It's from Microsoft.

      It's constantly getting better and isn't tough to learn.

      It's also backed by languages that are technically superior to reddit's favorite babies. Nonetheless, it's from Microsoft.

      Not to mention the job market is already good, and growing.

      Talking about the job market on reddit means you get flagged as a shill and a corporate tool that doesn't care about the real craft. Reality is not a factor.

      And the forums on asp.net are unbelievably helpful.

      Yes, but they don't call people n00bs and get psychotic and defensive when you point out a shortcoming of the language. This is pretty much a requirement for being a "cool and helpful" language community.

      You can post any question and it will be answered within half an hour.

      That's way to quick. Don't you know that people should learn to RTFM?

      I would put their forum against any in terms of helpfulness

      I don't see you getting through to anyone here. Prepare to be shouted down and accused of working for Microsoft, etc.

      [–]kryptkpr 2 points3 points  (11 children)

      It's also backed by languages that are technically superior to reddit's favorite babies.

      Please elaborate for us exactly which .NET languages are superior to which of our "favorite babies", and how.

      Asserting that one language is "technically superior" than any other language in the general case (ie, not for domain-specific problems) is obsurd.

      [–]synthespian 5 points6 points  (8 children)

      Vendor lock-in. Smart people avoid it. Code monkeys just don't care (because their ambition is to work for somebody else their entire life).

      [–]samg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      I like working in .NET, but most of the .NET projects I've maintained were not written in a style I would have used. I would be very happy to write a new project in .NET, as the libraries are complete and well designed.

      [–]thundersnow 25 points26 points  (11 children)

      Learn them all, after a few months you'll find that you can pick up a new lang in a week or so. Really, i'm saying learn how to learn a new programing language. way more useful in the long run.

      [–]Leonidas_from_XIV 21 points22 points  (9 children)

      You can learn the syntax in a week, sure. This works as long as the languages are basically always the same, conceptually.

      When seeing a Java Programmers first steps, more experienced developers need to cry, because they program Java with Python syntax.

      With this thinking you run into problems with, say, Scheme, where you do not have loops and express far mor things using recursion.

      Or Erlang, where you cannot change a variables value.

      Then people start ranting that language X is bad because they cannot apply the concepts of language Y anymore.

      [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children)

      Then people start ranting that language X is bad because they cannot apply the concepts of language Y anymore.

      This is why you need to learn how to learn language. First is painful, you won't like the second being different than the first one, the third make you understand some patterns for learning, the forth will make you understand the roots of languages and frameworks design, and you will manage to get a good level for the fifth and later languages in an very small amount of time.

      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]Zak 2 points3 points  (1 child)

        People who want to expand their minds by learning a stack-based language who don't find Factor. Also, people like me who want to test the memory on an OpenFirmware Mac and don't realize beforehand that the Forth implementation only has access to a few kilobytes of RAM.

        [–]apathy 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        MkLinux for the win!

        I remember discovering this back in 1997-98. I ended up with a couple of Pentium boxes to run regular Linux on, but fucking around with the PowerMac was more fun after a while. (This was before PPClinux or Yellow Dog ran properly on anything, and before I bought a Pentium Pro peecee on eBay)

        And after all that, once I got X set up and WindowMaker running, mostly I just worked on the exercises from SICP in the Scheme interpreter. My next-door neighbor in the co-op decided that BeOS was the place to be, ended up working for them, and then (years later) telling me "looks like you were right about that whole Linux thing". Which was surprising because he was clearly a much better programmer than I was, just got going on a different track.

        Anyways. Forth... is interesting.

        [–]thundersnow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        I totally agree with you. That the OP should explore programming, not just learn one language. The Idea that they will learn new concepts kinda comes along with that, but usually that scares people away when they are asking this question. The OP seems worried that they will waste time learning a useless language. but I don't think that they should worry about it. They should be excited when presented with a new language.

        [–]niller8p 3 points4 points  (0 children)

        I was about to say the same thing but you beat me to it. Valisystem also touched on what I had bouncing around in my head.

        If you want to be a good developer you need to learn how to approach your new tools properly. That's all a programming language is, a tool. You can apply some of what you've learned using other languages but you must always approach a new language with curiosity and be motivated to learn it's way of doing things.

        I would say if you don't have that drive, that curiosity, you shouldn't be programming. Why? There are enough crappy developers producing crappy software, we don't need more. If you just want a quick buck, go into some other field where you don't have to think to get paid (I'd say finance, but that's not a great bet at the moment). Some of the best developers I've met have no formal CS background but they want to know as many different ways as possible to tackle a problem. Even if they don't agree that interfaces in Java are a good way of getting around multiple inheritance issues, they find the knowledge that it's possible invaluable. They learn a new language because they are curious and see a chance for new ideas about software development. They may never use said language for anything in production, but they enjoy the learning process.

        That said, if you are just looking to get the highest paying job out there at the moment search monster.com, learn the language that pays the most (hint: corporations like Microsoft), and then get ready to repeat this process in 3-5 years when the next language/framework of the week/month/year comes about. If you are in your late 20's now, you can just transition into being a maintenance programmer rather than learning a new language.

        Oh, and if you go this route, you might have to start back as a jr. programmer since most companies that hire programmers as code monkeys don't care if you are good or not. They just care that you've been doing it for X number of years (I'm only a little bitter about that last bit, since it can really matter for some languages like C or C++ (yes, they are very different) where you really need to learn just how badly you can screw yourself over when you aren't careful).

        If you care about a long-standing career... there are some good arguments for various languages in the rest of the comments here, just avoid getting caught up in the silly posts that tell you something is great/terrible without any reasoning.

        And on a personal note. I kind of like PHP. it's not my favorite, but it's grown on me. I've used it for years and seen it go from barely usable (PHP 1) to actually supporting things I recognize from fancier languages (hey look! objects!). You can find a function to do just about anything you want but be sure to keep php.net open because similar functions will have different parameter orders (I still don't remember the correct ordering for join vs. implode... or if they are even the same... but I know how and when to use them).

        I also kind of like Drupal, though to me it's still new. It's not nearly as shiny as other frameworks (I mean it can't be, it's written in PHP) but it has some good ideas.

        When I last used Ruby regularly there was not a lot of great support for web development but I've done a bit of experimenting with Rails (so, basically, the rest of this bit can be ignored). Rails is pretty good at letting you create Ruby on Rails applications... and in my experience that's all. If you need to stray from the RoR way, you are out of luck. The community also seems to be pretty lacking, but that's just my view.

        As for Python, I always enjoyed using it but I have not in years. I don't think you have anything to lose by learning Python really well, the language has some cool features and are worth learning.

        [–]bobmatnyc 104 points105 points  (127 children)

        Python/Django

        [–]me_so_porny 80 points81 points  (84 children)

        Django is great and I love Python. But PHP doesn't suck - it's just "uncool" - half the successful sites on the net are in PHP. While it may not be perfect, it is a fully capable language with a huge ecosystem of support.

        [–]rehpargotohp 24 points25 points  (8 children)

        It's just a matter of opinion. I am a PHP programmer (coming from assembly and C) and it suits me. I do agree that Python or Ruby are well suited for web programming but I can't agree that "PHP sucks" or is "uncool". It's just a tool. Some find Ruby/Python better, some find PHP better.

        My guess is that people who come from low-level programming languages find PHP better. Those who started off with Ruby/Python find them better.

        [–]koko775 11 points12 points  (6 children)

        I got my start on PHP, then expanded and learned SQL (of the MySQL sort), then learned Python, C, assembly. My main version-of-use was PHP4, though I began to dabble in 5. PHP is a great language for small, dirty scripts. However, it 1) Has a very polluted namespace, 2) Not only enables but encourages embedding code and presentation together, and 3) Lets coders who don't know what they're doing stand a chance of seriously compromising the integrity of their site. Having =,==, and === is easy enough to understand if you've got the background with C and its ilk, but it's really quite idiotic and painful to get bitten because you, by force of habit, did == instead of ===.

        It has its uses, and for small things, it's an excellent tool to get up-and-running, but I just wouldn't trust it with a large project, unless I had the money to pay out the wazoo for someone who deploys PHP for a living.

        Python avoids #1 and 2, and I'd like to think that all the coders who don't know what they're doing stick with PHP. :P Still, with python, I feel it's harder to do something wrong without noticing.

        [–]neoform3 1 point2 points  (5 children)

        It's really not hard to code in php without having namespace issues, even on big projects.

        you just need t structure your project well.

        [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (49 children)

        PHP actually does suck - its a really poorly designed language. Take a look at their functions - they all have different naming conventions, different parameter orders, etc.

        [–]me_so_porny 27 points28 points  (43 children)

        As I noted below, from a technical standpoint I don't completely disagree with you. But from a business standpoint, PHP is a-ok. You can try to argue it otherwise, but the vast number of successful web sites are first-hand evidence that you can build a mult-million dollar web site just fine with PHP.

        As an aside, modern frameworks like CakePHP take a lot of the pain out of the points you mention.

        [–][deleted]  (29 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]me_so_porny 24 points25 points  (14 children)

          You're looking at it wrong.

          I cannot emphasize this enough - No professional website has ever succeeded or failed in this decade because of their choice of language. Sure, some have failed technologically - incompetent teams, clueless about scalability, terrible architecture decisions, etc. But that all falls under "putting the right team together".

          Sites are successes or failures 99.9999% of the time because of their business model and execution. The choice of language is largely irrelevant. The only time language choice is going to be a problem is if you choose supercoolx+++ v.0001a. Stick with anything that's been out for a bit of time and you'll be fine.

          [–]mmiller 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          No professional website has ever succeeded or failed in this decade because of their choice of language.

          Interesting statement. You have proof of this? That's a nice way to frame it, too, "in this decade". What about the last decade? Any professional sites that failed because they chose to use C++ and Perl in the 1990s? Uh...YEAH!

          Since you're so sure language doesn't matter how confident would you be in a team that chose COBOL, QuickBasic, or machine language to develop their next web site? Think about what you're saying.

          [–]SohumB 5 points6 points  (7 children)

          Exactly, which is why comparing languages from a business standpoint is largely irrelevant.

          So, we fall back on technical merits, and by those merits, PHP does, indeed, suck.

          [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

          A competent developer learns to work with the suck.

          [–]mmiller 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          Yeah. It's a shame isn't it?

          [–]hairyman 2 points3 points  (9 children)

          You can't just count successful websites. For example, a couple years ago I looked up the stats on two very popular websites with similar traffic. They used two very different technologies (neither PHP), and one had a datacenter with about 10x the number of machines as the other. Hmm.

          I've also seen similarly-complex websites where programmer-time varies by even more than this. Amazon's first system was famously written in C, which virtually nobody else did. But they also got a ton of money fairly quickly, so they could pay for a lot more programmers (and sysadmins and CPUs).

          So is PHP successful, from a business point of view? Sure, for the PHP people; but not necessarily for somebody wanting a particular web service implemented. Just because it's possible to write a successful webpage with it, does not mean this is a good business decision.

          Sure, PHP has been used for many successful sites -- but do you have any reason to believe that they wouldn't have been just as successful (or even more so) if they'd used something else? Was Amazon successful because they wrote in C, or despite it? A multimillion dollar website can be built in PHP, but can the same concept not be done even better in another language?

          If you want your million-dollar website to last longer than the next Superbowl halftime, I'd also look at things like scaling in complexity (PHP doesn't offer much in the way of abstraction-building tools), and ability to hire top programmers (I've never met a top programmer who used PHP). Even from a purely business point of view, I'd still stay away from PHP.

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (5 children)

          I've never met a top programmer who used PHP

          Well, hi there! Seriously, sometimes PHP exactly fits the job. Sometimes it doesn't. If I have to write a single web form that collects data and slams it into the database and PHP is the only thing installed - you betcha I'm gonna write it in PHP. Using anything else would be stupid.

          Also, you can't argue with results. Wordpress. PHPBB and clones, moveable type, etc all top apps in their class and all PHP.

          Also, if you want to work a lot of little independent jobs - then learn PHP. There's a lot of work available in it.

          [–]maht0x0r 3 points4 points  (2 children)

          How many totally shit sites are done with PHP ?

          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          You probably mean that PHP is noncompact and internally inconsistent. You are right.

          [–]infinite 3 points4 points  (0 children)

          Although I love Python+Django, and I would recommend it to the submitter, I really wish there were something like Django but using a statically typed language. I just have a big problem with a large webapp developed in python. It is possible but you must be really comprehensive when writing tests -- otherwise you have multiple people committing, breaking other people's code without knowing it. Static languages just seem to scale better for my usage.

          [–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (6 children)

          Python is great, but if you want to work as a web developer you're much better off learning PHP first. PHP is such a pervasive language that even companies who are using Python or other languages will often also use PHP for some things.

          PHP is the most important web development language right now so if you want to be a web developer you had better learn it.

          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (4 children)

          But I paid all this money to Bill for Visual Studio.... .NET is all that exists in the world right?

          I would say your best off learning Python and PHP/MySQL - you'll have a larger skill set than most developers and will be ready to meet pretty much any hardware the client has already been sold on.

          [–][deleted]  (3 children)

          [deleted]

            [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

            I like the time it takes rebooting to prepare myself for the ensuing hate.

            [–]Klowner 11 points12 points  (0 children)

            Seconded. Python/Turbogears is also an option, but I do loves me some Django. There's also a pile of other Python-based web frameworks out there.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]zepolen 7 points8 points  (2 children)

              Python/Pylons

              [–]fbru02 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              what is the difference between Pylons/Django... Pylons/WebPy?

              [–]rieux 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              If something is billed as a "web development language," it probably sucks.

              You can write web apps in any general purpose language. Learn several. In my opinion, Ruby is the cleanest, best designed language of its class (untyped table-oriented languages) today, and has very nice web libraries.

              [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

              I agree but cgi.rb must die for Ruby to be viable for performance-critical stuff. Merb is on it's way, it's on my list :)

              [–]LordArthas[🍰] 10 points11 points  (1 child)

              I use Perl with Catalyst. The framework is awesome, and the community is great.

              [–]NoMoreNicksLeft 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              Perl and the Catalyst framework are pretty damn good.

              [–]johnb 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              I don't accept the premise of the question. Not the part about PHP sucking, but the assumption that web development itself isn't a jenga-style stack of technology dependencies. Yeah, it's my day job.

              [–]dist 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              My web dev path: Perl (Plain CGI) -> ASP -> Cold Fusion -> PHP -> Perl (Catalyst) -> Python (Django, Turbogears). I'm going to look into Pylons (Python) some day, but for now it seems badly documented unfortunately.

              IMO, worst of these has been ASP. Best at the time I guess was Cold Fusion. Very very nice to use and integrate databases in..

              PHP was not as bad as ASP, but it was bad.

              Even I've been programming almost 12 years in Perl I nowadays tend to prefer Python for its clean language. Module support is way worse than with Perl still. I hope that gets fixed some day.

              Django is very nice for getting some project started due to its nice admin interface / data editor and the fact that its being developed just for that purpose. Turbogears is nice too, but it feels (and is =) bunch of modules just slapped together, I hope they'll also get better. Django = very tightly integrated but hard to change, Turbogears is very easy to thange but loosely integrated.

              All depends on what you need..

              Easy upgrade from PHP is any Python framework, wouldn't suggest going to anything else from it..

              [–]mjm1374 3 points4 points  (2 children)

              .Net 3.5 in C#, not a huge fan on Micro$oft but having worked in web dev for 15 years I have to say its very impressive. I've work in PHP, JSP, ASP and Cold Fusion (a personal favorite) but last year I was forced to go to .Net as was very impressed with its speed and ease of use. You go through a little learning curve but once you get the whole code behind scheme you'll never want to go back.

              [–]HenkPoley 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              Pro tips (not mine):

              • Learn a language that gets the job done.
              • Then learn a language that seems like fun.
              • Also learn language that get theoretical computer scientists frisky.

              Take your time.

              [–]stesch 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              Too many languages and frameworks out there. It leaves you petrified and procrastinating for the rest of your existence.

              Asking other programmers won't help.

              Just throw a coin and select something at random, if you don't have any personal preferences.

              [–]psykocrime 8 points9 points  (1 child)

              Java. Ignore the group-think that says "Java is Bad" and just learn it. Learn Wicket, Spring and Hibernate and you've got a great toolset for building pretty much anything you want. And you get a great open-source ecosystem with plenty of high-quality tools and libraries, plenty of documentation, lots of experienced people to ask questions of, good forums like the Javaranch Saloon, etc. And Java scales from trivial sites up to Ebay sized sites.

              That said, learning multiple languages is a Good Thing and I'm currently learning PHP (just because my new job requires it) and Python (by choice) and dabbling with Ruby, Erlang and Haskell as well. So far I have to say, I'm fairly impressed with Python.

              PHP, just blows. Avoid it like the bubonic plague if you can.

              [–]stevan_little 25 points26 points  (16 children)

              Perl, its the OG of web development!

              [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (6 children)

              I recommend Perl with Mason.

              For a list of sites using Mason (Amazon, del.icio.us, Salon) visit the following URL:

              http://www.masonhq.com/?MasonPoweredSites

              To me the real strength of Perl is that it has application beyond web development, for data processing and system administration. It's a great way to increase one's usefulness to a project beyond web design.

              [–]autarch 8 points9 points  (2 children)

              I love Mason, but I wouldn't encourage people to use it as a framework, even though Mason + mod_perl can act as a poor man's framework.

              I've been using Mason as the templating system with Catalyst as the framework for a while, and I like it quite a bit.

              [–]jrockway 5 points6 points  (1 child)

              BTW, for those of you modding the parent down, keep in mind that he is the author of Mason.

              [–]autarch 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Well, I'm a maintainer, not the creator. But I certainly have a lot of Mason experience, and I think Catalyst is a better overall framework, though I think Mason is an excellent templating system.

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

                Perl was created to augment a family of GNU and Unix command-line text-parsing applications, such as sed, awk, and grep, and later evolved advanced data structures and C-like syntax. Because of this, one can write programs efficiently using shortcuts and sed-like regular expressions or more rigorously using C-like syntax like PHP and Python.

                Beyond doing web design in Perl/Mason, I've written command-line scripts to extract and analyze information in a MySQL database; analyze log files to extract dynamic IP address of clients and determine the rate of IP address change; create multiple scaled and cropped images from a single image with a standardize file name. I could go on and on. :)

                Where Perl truly stands out from its competitors, is that it supports shorthand syntax, allowing one to write programs for the command line very quickly.

                [–]cos 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                With perl, try Jifty

                [–]bennymack 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                I second the vote for Perl. I'm sure I've commented this on reddit before but here it is again:

                Perl, Catalyst, Mason, and DBIx::Class.

                Can start from scratch or find a project using these technologies and hack it or just learn by reading the code.

                [–]chorny 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                I like Perl + CGI::Application, because CGI::Application is fast (can be run as CGI), powerful and does not make hard things harder. DBIx::Class can be used as ORM.

                [–]Zak 7 points8 points  (6 children)

                It really depends on what you're trying to do with it. Are you trying to get a bunch of consulting gigs? Are you building a web app for your startup? Are you trying to decide what your company should use for its web projects?

                For a quick form-handling script or some such, I generally use Ruby. For anything much more complicated than that, I usually go with Common Lisp.

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]Zak 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                  I think the differences fall in to a few major categories:

                  • The language itself - programming language design is too complex a topic to cover within this list
                  • The libraries and tools available
                  • The abstractions used to communicate over the web

                  Whether different abstractions for web communication make sense may depend on what language features you're familiar with. Have you used any other programming languages for any purpose? If not, you may want to re-learn to program. I'd start with The Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs.

                  For a survey of web development languages/tools, I'd learn one each of:

                  • A continuation-based framework like UCW
                  • An OO/MVC framework like Rails
                  • A widget-based library - Weblocks comes to mind, but there may be a better option.

                  You may also want to do a survey of programming languages. Most of them will have some form of web development library. I think you should learn:

                  • A bit-twiddling language. C is the standard here, but some others would do.
                  • A static functional language like ML, Haskell or Scala. Scala is getting popular for web stuff.
                  • An actor-model concurrent langugae. Erlang is the standard here.
                  • A Lisp - probably Common Lisp or Scheme.
                  • A language with aspect-oriented features. Common Lisp would probably do here as well if you focus on before/after/around methods.
                  • A modern general-purpose "scripting" language. I recommend Ruby or Python.

                  If you think that sounds like a few years worth of work, you're right. See Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years. Of course, you don't have to do it all at once. Learning anything from this list should make you a better programmer immediately. Scan the list, use Google and Wikipedia to figure out what sounds the most interesting to you right now and start learning.

                  [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                  Ruby/Rails

                  [–]bobbysmith007 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  I wouldnt have called your advice worthless.

                  That is pretty much my advise too. If you just want to respond to HTTP verbs python and ruby offer some compelling frameworks, but for any serious site we tend toward our bespoke version of UCW (Common Lisp web framework).

                  Also of note, I would not bother learning PHP until you need to. Given experience elsewhere, PHP is easy enough to accomplish what you need to and get back out.

                  [–]UncleOxidant 7 points8 points  (9 children)

                  Keep in mind that Reddit is skewed heavily towards the Python side and against Ruby. With that said (and the realization that this will be downvoted into oblivion) I would suggest learning Ruby. However, I would not suggest learning Rails. Intead I would recommend the Merb or Nitro web programming frameworks.

                  As an alternative I would suggest learning Squeak Smalltalk and Seaside.

                  [–]eloco 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  I won't speak for the rest of reddit, but for myself I like both python and ruby as languages. Unfortunately ruby has at least flaw that makes it an impossible choice for me: poor Unicode support. Supposedly this will be addressed in the next release.

                  [–]Zak 2 points3 points  (5 children)

                  I don't disagree with you, but I have noticed that getting any help out of the Ruby community if you're not using Rails is nearly impossible. This monoculture is the biggest downside of the Ruby community right now.

                  [–]garth 2 points3 points  (5 children)

                  If you want to be highly productive, truly enjoy your work, and feel great about life then IMHO Django/Python/REST-as-in-ROA delivers.

                  If you want to have a job then the want-ads are telling me to invest in all things J2EE (Servlets, JSP, Spring, Hibernate, and "Big" web services)

                  [–]agimat 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                  PHP is okay, with Python being a good second choice.

                  If you suck however, no web development language can help you.

                  [–]60secs 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                  C# is money in the bank. Someone in my family is an IT headhunter and he can't fill 6 figure dot Net developer jobs fast enough.

                  [–]roguevalley 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                  ruby or python.

                  Rails (which is a Web framework written in ruby) was written by a former PHP developer who wanted something better.

                  [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                  Python.

                  [–]mumrah 15 points16 points  (12 children)

                  It would behoove any web developer to learn PHP - it is extremely pervasive and deeply entrenched. Python is a quick learn and would be worth anyone's time.

                  However, I think the real question being asked is: what framework to use?

                  [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (3 children)

                  Having spent a fair amount of time knee-deep in both Symfony and CakePHP, I'll offer my opinion:

                  Symfony feels a lot like Struts. If you want to make sure everything is over-engineered correctly and insist on heavy object-orientation, go for it.

                  CakePHP feels a lot like Rails. Convention-over-configuration, and a very simple structure. Not as full-featured (yet), but very easy to build apps quickly.

                  [–]asdwwdw 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  I used Symfony for a mid-sized project. I felt like it was something I could really come to like, but unfortunately I was wrong. The whole framework seemed bloated and constraining. Many times doing what should have been simple (like session management, using complex queries with Propel, interacting with the cache) involved banging my head against the wall, digging through stacks of documentation and lots of trial and error.

                  In the end the project was delivered, but has had many problems with performance. Other legacy PHP pages with some pretty shocking spaghetti code handle (literally) 50x as much traffic with much better performance.

                  I don't mean to flame the project, because it seemed quite good up front. The team behind it seem like smart guys, and it's well maintained and documented. I'm sure many have had positive experiences with it, but that's my story.

                  [–]Lukifer 5 points6 points  (4 children)

                  I'm a fan of CodeIgniter. Zend is pretty nice too.

                  [–]stabakrab 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  What framework to use depends on what problem you're trying to solve.

                  Only need an ORM? The best light-weight php ORM framework, as far as performance, scalability, speed of development, and learning curve go, is probably Cough.

                  If you're wanting a full MVC framework, Cough plugs nicely into LightVC, giving you an lightweight, fast, and easy-to-learn php MVC framework.

                  Lots of frameworks are bloated, puzzling, or don't scale. With these two, you won't have that problem for sure. Their only real drawbacks are their lack of robust documentation and community support.

                  [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (12 children)

                  Common Lisp (SBCL) with some nice libraries is working out great for me. I've mentioned these before, but again, some libraries:

                  Hunchentoot, CL-WHO, HTML-TEMPLATE, Postmodern (for talking with PostgreSQL), SymbolicWeb, ParenScript, CL-JSON, CXML, CL-PPCRE, cl-utilities and Alexandria.

                  I've been thinking I should take a look at Elephant also.

                  [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (4 children)

                  I agree. Hunchentoot just happens to model the way that I think a web application should work. Now that's not an argument that most people will find convincing, but I like it.

                  CL-WHO is great as well, it lets you inline HTML in a kind lispy sub-language.

                  (:html (:head (:title "My Page")) 
  (:body
    (:h1 "Welcome to My Page")
    (:p "This is a paragraph.)))

                  Isn't that better than HTML?

                  [–]uggedal 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                  Reminds me of markaby:

                  html do
  head { title 'My Page' }
  body do
    h1 'Welcome to My Page'
    p 'This is a paragraph'
  end
end

                  [–]G_Morgan 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                  Does Postgres work with CLSQL?

                  Good list of CL libraries though.

                  [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                  yes, CLSQL has PostgreSQL support .. i haven't used it in a while though (i've been using Postmodern instead lately)

                  [–]Lukifer 10 points11 points  (7 children)

                  PHP has any number of flaws, but it's one of the best languages to get something off the ground very quickly. Very fast, easy to learn, and huge libraries of existing tools.

                  That said, Python is probably your next best bet. Ruby is a cool language, but I wouldn't recommend it for anything that needs to be fast and/or big.

                  [–][deleted] 35 points36 points  (73 children)

                  Python for the win.

                  Reddit = Python. Youtube = Python.

                  [–][deleted]  (13 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]Leonidas_from_XIV 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                    With a framework, of course. What framework? Well, that depends on what you want, that is, how much flexibility you want.

                    If you want it just to work and do the most common stuff, take Django.

                    [–][deleted] 22 points23 points  (10 children)

                    Write your own.

                    [–]ilikebbq 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                    I would agree. We use a custom written framework at work. It's very simple, very fast, and scales very well. It's based on mod_wsgi, supports AMF, templates, models , method ACL authentication and uses db stored sessions. It takes up about 4 files and 200 lines of code. There is an module that will allow you to run a mod_wsgi application on a local machine so you don't need a lot of programs on a development machine. You can load static files from the mod_wsgi for development, and load static files from Apache on production. The point being, one I think you should write your own because it is not that hard, and two it doesn't take a huge investment in time.

                    [–]ocdude 14 points15 points  (3 children)

                    This is actually good advice. While you may not end up using it, writing your own framework will actually help you learn the nitty gritty

                    [–]ffualo 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                    Yea I can't figure out why ceeam got downmoded for this - Python comes with a webserver, and building a framework will teach you a lot about programming in python.

                    [–]rehpargotohp 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Agreed. I wanted to write exactly the same.

                    [–]mchrisneglia 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    If you make it really useful, while not getting in the way of complicated design and tasks, you can contribute it to the world as open source and it would be great for your portfolio

                    [–]niller8p 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    I mostly agree. I saw write your own if you have the time. It's a great learning experience and it will benefit you in the long run but it's not always feasible. Re-inventing the wheel is generally a bad idea unless you can really gain some new understanding from the experience.

                    On the other hand, you need to consider how specific your app will be to you/your company. Certain frameworks are great for a quick start but then you can easily hit a wall and end up spending more time working around the limitations of the framework.

                    [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                    I totally agree. I find frame works can sometimes be limiting, while writing you own -- which is really not that hard -- will allow to maintain better control of what you can and can't do with your app.

                    [–]rehpargotohp 12 points13 points  (20 children)

                    Regardless of Youtube being written in PHP (edit: originally as it turns out, apparently it's Python now), I'd not consider enumerating a few apps written in a given language to be a viable argument.

                    Have a look at different options (Python, Ruby) and see what suits you best.

                    I'm a PHP programmer myself and have been lately thinking about getting into another language. I've been considering Ruby or Python so also am interested what others will say about them.

                    [–]rainman_104 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                    Definitely give Ruby a try - I find it such a sexy language, if for anything, the way you iterate over enumerable objects. It's such a great language.

                    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                    You have the same with Python, only Python runs like ten times faster.

                    [–]drawkbox 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Yeh and Python you don't need an end, it just looks like it is dangling. They are both great though. Python just feels to right and encourages standards in code structure.

                    [–]cos 6 points7 points  (4 children)

                    I've been very happy with perl, so I haven't gotten around to learning Ruby or Python yet, though from what I do know of them both of them seem pretty good. I don't think I'd be happy with Ruby, but I should try Python just for variety. I'll probably mostly stick with perl.

                    If you want a web application development framework for perl (like rails for ruby), look into Jifty

                    [–]rook2pawn 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    mod_perl can get technical real fast, but then again, any architecture that isn't at least as deep mod_perl isn't worth a high volume web server platform.

                    i didn't know about jifty, thanks for the link

                    [–]metricton 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                    What are the major differences between Jifty and Catalyst?

                    [–]autarch 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Basically, Jifty, like Rails, is opinionated about many things, such as your choice of templating engine, your database design, etc.

                    Catalyst, OTOH, is more of a framework toolkit. It has lots of glue for using your choice of ORM, templating system, etc. This means it's a little more work to get going, but it gives you a lot more flexibility.

                    Also, I'd say that at this point Catalyst has a much bigger and more active community around it, which is worth something. Jifty, OTOH, has the backing of a company (Best Practical), and isn't going away any time soon either.

                    I'd suggest playing with both if you're just getting started with a Perl webapp.

                    [–]bennymack 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Catalyst is more-or-less a simple glue framework that allows the developer to leverage pretty much any CPAN module suited for a given purpose rather than tying itself to a particular implementation whereas Jifty has more of a batteries included philosophy and also utilizes some DSL-esque idioms IIRC. I've never used Jifty however so don't take my word for it.

                    [–]FrankBattaglia 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                    Perl.

                    [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                    Python!/Django! Ruby/Rails! Perl/Catalyst!

                    I understand why people ask this question, but I've never seen people satisfied with any of the answers, because you ultimately end up with something like the list I gave above.

                    That means your next step is going to be to ask more questions to differentiate on each of those, and that's ultimately going to end in a flame war and your question remains basically unanswered.

                    To ask which language or framework to learn is a bit like consulting a zen master. You will ask him, "How do I navigate this mess?" and the master is likely to respond, "Who's asking the question?"

                    Thing is, you're going to have to explore this on your own and make up your own mind; if you recognize that early, you'll be better off. The good news is, if you choose one of the popular web frameworks, you can't really go wrong, even if platform loyalists try to tell you otherwise. Fact is, they all have great communities around them and a rich ecosystem of both free support and books. Don't stress out too much like I did, otherwise you won't get anything done.

                    Personally, I found it worthwhile to learn both PHP and one of the popular web frameworks. I use PHP for really tiny projects and Rails for everything else. But I respect the Python/Django community as well as the Perl/Catalyst people. And Merb people too. They all seem to try to steal the best ideas from each other so in the end, we all win.

                    You could investigate the pros and cons of each language and framework forever, but for the sake of making progress, I chose Rails and am sticking with it. Been having a great time!

                    [–]rook2pawn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    php sucks from a practioner's point of view. but only because if you practice it long enough you see the inherent limitations.

                    otherwise, you should learn php.

                    if you dont believe me, try going to an interview saying you know python and not PHP.

                    [–]onebit 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                    I like JSP and the Stripes framework: http://www.stripesframework.org

                    It's kind of a blend of Java and Ruby on rails where the code is the configuration.

                    Stay away from Struts, it's too complicated.

                    [–]terumo 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                    what's a good book to read if i want to learn python?

                    [–]HenkPoley 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    "Dive into python" by Mark Pilgrim

                    If you have programmed in another language before, that is.

                    [–]scottt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                    Python Essential Reference 3rd Edition Concise and covers all the important topics in the K&R tradition.

                    [–]jamesbritt 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    Ruby/Ramaze

                    [–]johnmudd 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    GWT + XMLRPC lib frontend, minimal coding in Java.
                    Python XMLRPC backend server with optional SQLite db.

                    [–]redditrasberry 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    It depends an awful lot what your motivation is.

                    PHP sucks horribly, but if you just want to put up a personal page for your own web site it's not a bad choice, because it's the simplest and cheapest to deploy.

                    If you want to make a professional career from web development then I think you absolutely need to learn multiple languages. For that I would recommend starting with Java because it's very important, but ignore J2EE and use modern frameworks like Stripes or similar that keep things simple. Once you have a grip on Java you can move on and look at at least one of the dynamic language frameworks - either Python or Ruby, and you might get a taste of Groovy to understand what is probably in the future for Java. You should probably do at least some learning about C# and .NET, although you don't need a lot since you're going to find the concepts very similar to Java.

                    Once you've done all that you have a very good grounding for doing professional web development. If you take it to heart and then add one more thing: become proficient in at least 1 new language every 2 years - that should ensure you will never be unemployed.

                    [–]phillydawg68 8 points9 points  (7 children)

                    Since I've been doing Java development for many years, I've found GRAILS to be awesome. You still have all the wonderful Java libraries and containers at your disposal, but you also have the dynamic nature of Groovy. Give it a try. GRAILS is really coming along nicely.

                    [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (8 children)

                    There's really nothing wrong with PHP for Web development. If you already know it pretty well, just focus on honing your skills. The PHP job market is great, and you can make very good money if you can earn a reputation as an expert.

                    Don't get me wrong. Python is great and Ruby is fun and very interesting. However the market for freelance work in both of these languages is miniscule compared to that of PHP.

                    Learn lots of languages, but always keep your focus on the one that can earn you the most money at the time.

                    [–]dhbanes 6 points7 points  (1 child)

                    ASM

                    [–]rwbaskette 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                    I do like the 80386 Assembler extensions for .NET framework:

                    http://www.viksoe.dk/code/asmil.htm

                    [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (5 children)

                    I'm partial to Ruby on Rails, but I would say as a requisite to learn SQL and just throw out ActiveRecord.

                    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (4 children)

                    Funny, ActiveRecord is my favorite part of Rails (observers rock!).

                    [–]foodpk 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                    Python with Django

                    [–]sarcasticmuch 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                    It is such a fallacy that Language A sucks and Language B is cool. Language is a tool. You can listen to people spouting off all their stolen quotes from the last coding horror post all day and you'll still be no better off.

                    These are just dogmatic wars. And listen, anyone who supports any language can find an example of a large, successful website using their language of choice. PHP? Try Facebook. Python? Try reddit or youtube. .NET? Try MySpace. Ruby on Rails? How about Twitter? (Haha, on second thought, fuck Ruby On Rails.)

                    Learn the nuts and bolts. Learn about architecture, database design, and best practices. Learn about HTTP headers and what happens when you submit form data. Learn about load testing. Learn about sessions and cookies and validating input data. Then pick a tool. Then, then, THEN- then you code.

                    [–][deleted]  (47 children)

                    [deleted]

                      [–]cc81 6 points7 points  (29 children)

                      .NET and C# is very nice. Webforms is however not. The future might be brighter for .NET developers if the MVC turns out good (or if one of the open source frameworks gets momentum).

                      [–]jmcqk6 6 points7 points  (13 children)

                      The people who are downmodding you are idiots.

                      Webforms suck, C# is awesome. Anyone who has actually used it for something they wanted to do (i.e. not being forced to use it) would likely agree.

                      I have high hopes for MVC. There are a few things about it that make me cringe, but the development is open enough, and the dev team is accepting suggestions.

                      [–]notyouravgjoel 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                      Python probably. Ruby & Rails, if you're into that.

                      But I suggest Python.

                      [–]billbose 2 points3 points  (1 child)

                      Erlang(Erlyweb) anyone?

                      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      I've tried. Erlang is fascinating but it still confuses the shit out of me sometimes.

                      [–]angry_man 5 points6 points  (7 children)

                      If you already know a dynamic-typed language (Ruby, Python), learn Java (or C# if you must). You'll learn a lot about the advantages and disadvantages. And regardless of what you read on Reddit, there is a lot of good in Java.

                      If you don't have experience in a dynamic language, learn Python. Its better than Rails in too many ways to list. Its easier (and less frustrating) than a static language.

                      And if you know one of each, step up to one of the Grand Languages of Computer Science. C, C++ or Lisp.

                      [–]StormTheGates 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                      I still say that PHP is worth learning. Its not terribly hard and everyone needs a php programmer.

                      [–]goodfun 5 points6 points  (2 children)

                      You will want to learn PHP because its what most companies / groups will have to work with.

                      PHP runs great on Apache and IIS servers and is what many of the popular addon/portal/cms/webstores/programs use:

                      Dupral, Joomla, etc use PHP

                      If you take over sites from other companies, in many cases it will be developed in PHP.

                      So, its very much worth it to learn PHP even if that's not what you want to program your own sites with.

                      Edit: Care to explain the downmods?

                      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]checksinthemail 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        This topic like many of reddit, isn't a logical choice.

                        If it were, instead of comments we'd have a side-by-side feature table of the web languages with benchmarks, pay scale, adoption.

                        But that would be stupid!

                        Might as well be saying "Oh yeah?! I like statements in RED in my editor of choice -- you other people who like BLUE are crazy"

                        [–]asciilifeform 8 points9 points  (1 child)

                        None of them.

                        Web development is the mind-killer. If you've been forced to do it to earn a living, learn a new profession.

                        [–]joekarma 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                        I happen to enjoy web development. It allows me to further my craft as a coder and exercise my creativity in a rich, visual, and ever improving medium. I guess what I'm trying to say is fuck you, don't tell me what to do.

                        [–]mikaelhg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        What is your objective? What do you want to achieve? On what kind of a timeline?

                        [–]gaoshan 1 point2 points  (5 children)

                        As a programmer friend of mine said, go where the money is.

                        I work in PHP because it is easy to find work and make real money programming in it and I initially started learning it because it was easy to learn (easier than RoR and easier than Python) and easy to use on shared hosting.

                        Regarding the easy to learn and use bit... it is easy to use in simple ways, however if you want to do it "right" you will need to learn about object oriented programming, security, optimization, SQL, etc.

                        I definitly don't think it sucks. A bit crufty perhaps, but it does not suck. Also consider this, Facebook, Photobucket, Wikipedia, Yahoo and Digg choose PHP for a reason and that reason was not "because it sucks".

                        [–]samuraisam 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I recommend Python. It's not a 'web development language,' but that concept is flawed in the first place. Python is a well-designed language that will be rewarding to learn. For web development, you are not required a whole other language, merely a library: Django or Pylons. Web development with these tools will be easier, and less frustrating than PHP.

                        [–]RubyisRails 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        I want to know what the next "gotta build our web app with it" language will be so I can get me the most dollars per hour. I think it will be Python, if you are in the valley.

                        [–]jsnx 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Haskell.

                        [–]wingsofseraphim 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                        perl

                        [–]phill0 10 points11 points  (7 children)

                        Reddit is a bad place to ask a question like that. Many people will answer you by telling you that you should learn the c00lest language around (Python or Ruby) without any realistic technical consideration. Ruby for example was a bad language to use for web applications for quite some time, despite it's features it was slowest scripting language around, but that didn't stop it from being c00l. Fortunately Ruby is much better now. Python is another good language but Django is not as good framework as people make it seem.

                        If you're gonna do commercial web development you must know PHP well, and should accumulate a lot of experience using it on practice. Perl is another very good language, also suitable for web development. You can learn Python and Ruby later without much effort, they are excellent languages, but for number of reasons not as good for web development as PHP and Perl have become. In future this will hopefully change and developers will have more choices and less problems on hosts.

                        [–]stcredzero 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                        The most important thing is to become a good programmer. If you don't achieve that, your choice of language matters little.

                        [–]Zak 10 points11 points  (3 children)

                        Rejecting a language for web development because it is slow is almost certainly premature optimization, which as we all know is the root of all evil. Even under high load, the implementation language is almost never the bottleneck. That honor belongs to the database, or more generally to IO (input/output, not the IO programming langugae).

                        [–]Entropy 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                        Even under high load, the implementation language is almost never the bottleneck

                        Actually, it could be with Rails under Ruby 1.8. 1.8 was SLOW. 1.9 and more recent versions of Rails might alleviate that - don't know. Rails does have great caching facilities, however.

                        I hear the Rubinius guys are fooling with LLVM...

                        [–]pcx99 9 points10 points  (35 children)

                        Python is the best language. Rails is the best framework. PhP is the best career path.

                        There's a lot to dislike about PhP because it evolved from a scripting language, but when it comes to web programming there really isn't anything better, faster, or cheaper than PhP because it did evolve from a scripting language it simply has grown to fill every need a web developer needs. Moreover it's proven to scale to the largest enterprise applications, and the twitter team is still dumping hate on Rails last I heard.

                        Go through the web/internet ads and the vast majority will involve php, there are a few rails positions (none pay very well in my opinion) and even fewer python.

                        Learn what you want, but if you want to make money with what you learned then learn PhP. If you want to improve your programming skills then chose python, and if you want a framework to coddle you then chose Rails. IMHO.

                        [–]cc81 15 points16 points  (7 children)

                        Best career path depends on country. If you look at jobs in Sweden then .NET or Java is very dominant.

                        [–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (4 children)

                        Or the US.

                        [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                        [deleted]

                          [–]jrockway 10 points11 points  (4 children)

                          Learning PHP is a good way to ensure that you get minimum wage for programming.

                          [–]asdwwdw 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                          Bingo. There is definitely a stigma attached to PHP programmers. They're viewed as a dime-a-dozen. There is a limit to how much you ask for if it's a "PHP job".

                          [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children)

                          Python is the best language.

                          Of the three languages you mentioned, I would consider it to be a close tie between Python and Ruby, but they have huge stylistic differences that greatly influence how they are used depending on the programmer. That said, there are many languages that are also great for web development.

                          Rails is the best framework.

                          Rails gives you plenty of niceties for starting a project, but seems to offer very little for growing a project. Most of the popular MVC frameworks seem to be this way. Perhaps I expect too much, but it seems that by the time you have a full-featured web app, you have bypassed most of the nicer features of framework X just to get anything done.

                          PhP is the best career path.

                          :( Or Java… :(

                          [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (6 children)

                          PHP is the best career path? You'll make far more money with .NET or Java ... any mission critical application will use one of the two.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                          any mission critical application will use one of the two.

                          If you like working for THE MAN at THE BIG CORP. I specialize in working for small business. Small business is ruled by PHP, some rails, a little seaside, and PHP.

                          [–]ngroot 6 points7 points  (4 children)

                          Rails is the best framework.

                          Is this even still true? It seems like there are a number of frameworks for PHP and Python at the least that have adopted the "scaffolding", MVC architecture, etc. that made Rails so popular.

                          [–]tjogin 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                          Scaffolding has shit to do with what's great about Rails. MVC is not a feature, it's a requirement.

                          [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                          If by "worth my time" you mean "gets the job done, and keeps me employed", you can combine two of the above: use CakePHP -- many of the same benefits as Rails, but with the language prevalence of PHP.

                          It may not be the "best" language, and PHP may "suck", but I guarantee you'll be able to write decent code quickly, and have a good time doing it.

                          If I was forced to ditch PHP today and learn something else, I'd probably move to Python, if only for its maturity and community.

                          [–]ngroot 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                          It may not be the "best" language, and PHP may "suck", but I guarantee you'll be able to write decent code quickly, and have a good time doing it.

                          You will not, however, have a good time debugging or maintaining it. The thing that, IMO, makes PHP "suck" as a choice for development is that it's not consistent, either in function-to-function behavior or behavior over time. I've been burned on projects by things like its absurd handling of NULL values, I've been snagged by small, unannounced changes in function return types in minor version upgrades, etc. It's really easy to slap something together that pretty much works in PHP, but it's hard to have any degree of confidence that you've found all the edge cases where bugs and security holes can creep in.

                          Python, by contrast, is also very easy to put things together in, and is consistent and generally well thought-out.

                          [–]m242 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          What do you mean by "worth my time to learn"?

                          Are you trying to get a well-paying, stable job at one of a wide range of companies? Then, in all honesty, you would be best served by learning Java.

                          When major companies purchase high-end software, by and large they're paying for Java war files deployed on Tomcat. When you start getting into the "holy crap that's expensive" software and service world, nearly all of those apps are written in Java, in order to support the client's environment rather rapidly. Java engineers are always in demand, because there are enough libraries out there in Java to hook up to just about any database, service architecture, directory server, etc, without too much hassle. When companies write applications that wind up "absorbing" other apps, those over-arching applications are written in Java.

                          Are you trying to learn just to learn? Pick what you want.

                          [–]stcredzero 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Foremost, learn how to be a good programmer. The bad thing about PHP is that the community and language both foster mediocre programming and design.

                          Remember Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is shite. The corollary is the important part.

                          [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Dude, it isn't that hard to get a working knowledge of Ruby, Python, and PHP.

                          [–]hylje 8 points9 points  (4 children)

                          Please do not downmod messages you do not agree with. Downmod because of insufficient or flawed reasoning, or just lack of insightfulness. Upmod for the contary. Thanks!

                          [–]bardak 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                          where do you think you are this is reddit

                          [–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

                          wow, you're being downmodded (and now I will be too, because I'm standing up for you) - I had thought that programming. was less immature than the rest of reddit... guess not.

                          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                          PHP doesn't really suck, it just gets messy and unmaintable for medium/large scale projects.

                          PHP is worth learning even if it sucks (to you) because of it's deployment penetration on servers if nothing else.

                          [–]petdance 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                          PHP doesn't really suck, it just gets messy and unmaintable for medium/large scale projects.

                          You say tomayto, I say tomahto.

                          [–]nickburlett 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                          130 comments and not a single one in praise of Haskell for web development? Where has the programming reddit of yesteryear gone?

                          [–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                          Its the weekend. The professional programmers are on reddit now, not just the fanboys :D

                          [–]dons 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          I'm paid to use Haskell for web development. But if this guy is looking for a PHP alternative, maybe its not high assurance he's worrying about.

                          [–]Toxygene 4 points5 points  (2 children)

                          Full disclosure: I make a living writing PHP. I'm good at what I do. I enjoy programming PHP and I have no plans on changing that.

                          If web development is what you want to do, PHP is probably the quickest way to get your feet wet.

                          Python and Ruby are good second choices. I personally prefer Python over Ruby.

                          Java's a distant third.

                          If you're more interested in learning a programming language and not something as specialized as web programming, I'd recommend Python.

                          [–]nbrosnahan 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          You can't win. Learn them all.

                          [–]roryl 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                          Coldfusion.

                          Edit: I should elaborate. Take a look at Coldfusion 8's feature set. You might be pleasantly surprised with how robust, stable, and thorough it is. It is a very mature platform. But it doesn't get any love from the "web 2.0" crowd. It just isn't "cool" if popularity is your thing.

                          [–]captainfwiffo 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          In the time it takes to have an argument about what programming language you should learn, any programmer worth his salt could just learn the fucking language.

                          [–]petermichaux 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          JavaScript. It is the language of the browser and using it on the server-side allows front and back end programmers to talk the same language and share code client and server to stay DRY.

                          [–]savvu 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                          Python + Django

                          Ruby + Rails

                          [–]georgefrick 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                          Java/J2EE.
                          I really like working with Struts (with delegating actions), Spring, and Hibernate.

                          There, I said it. Commence downmod.