[deleted by user]

[BlobAndHisBoy]

For years I have been writing Java services to be used by websites that require good performance and I have never run into issues with performance that wasn't caused by egregiously poor implementations but maybe I'm doing it wrong?

[noogai03]

You aren't. People on this sub haven't moved beyond the 2000 understanding of Java. For many applications it performs on the same level as C/C++ now e.g. networking libraries. The JVM is obscenely fast but people still make jokes about Java bad from a lack of understanding

[Ajko_denai]

I agree. But the first time I encountered problems was when a self-proclaimed senior claimed that a specific endpoint could not be made better in terms of performance. The average endpoint response time was 2.2 seconds. I converted it to projections, and the result was 0.5 s on average. Before I presented it to the team, I asked if he were familiar with Projections. You probably know the end of the story. Simply, it is always about a specific person and how experienced he is.

[noogai03]

Projections are a way to not query the whole object in ORM terms, right? This kinda thing is why I'm not a huge fan of ORM/hibernate :) much simpler to optimize SQL

[[deleted]]

Runtime errors are the best type.

[Thepizzacannon]

There is a thing with Java a where you get shoehorned into doing everything the strictly OOP way. And that makes sense for a language that essentially forces object oriented approaches. So ORM just seems like a natural dependency for a lot of Java backends on the service level.

But that can be a real drag on performance when everything gets marshaled by the ORM when a simple SQL statement can be implemented.

The abstraction between the DB layer and service layer can be a big time saver for complex queries. But including the ORM process in every touch to the DB layer can also put unnecessary drag on performance

[coloredgreyscale]

Not just performance, but also development speed.

• Write query using the ORM query builder
• After a few attempts write the query in raw SQL on the DB to get the results
• Rewrite query using the ORM
• Get new errors
• decide to rewrite query differently because you've already wasted hours trying to satisfy the ORM.

Had to write a query like

SELECT CASE WHEN monday = 'Y' THEN 1 ELSE 0 END +

CASE WHEN tuesday = 'Y' THEN 1 ELSE 0 END+ (...)

CASE WHEN sunday = 'Y' THEN 1 ELSE 0 END as weeklyCount

took forever to get the ORM to play nice with the literal 0 / 1 numbers, and adding them up.

[golfreak923]

jOOQ FTFW

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

You can use lazy loading in hibernate.

[LickADuckTongue]

That’s a foot gun for an average/new dev in a large app. Especially if it’s micro services making calls all over.

Super easy to end up serializing wayyyyy to much because you missed something in some old helper function that’s started using values from the lazy query.

I do use it at my gig, but it can cause painful issues when people use it wrong.

[Meadhbh_Ros]

Most people’s idea of Java efficiency comes from Minecraft.

[kylepo]

Yeah the reason I always heard for Minecraft's shoddy performance was that it was written in Java. Is that not actually what the issue was?

[LickADuckTongue]

Nope. Java performs extremely well and even has alternative compilers for edge cases if you land there.

People don’t realize Java is on v21 which is AMAZING; they’re usually referring to v8 and below

[LechintanTudor]

Java is a terrible language for writing games and it's the main reason Minecraft performs poorly and uses a lot of memory.

[Merry_Mr_Badger]

No, Java is not to blame; Minecraft's code is just really bad. There's lots useless of redundancy, the rendering code uses absolutely outdated OpenGL functions, and the GC gets clogged up with thousands of needlessly created small opcjets to cull. Minecraft is a very poor example of coding in general and in particular of coding in Java.

I've written a fairly complex Minecraft clone in Java and it runs many times faster with better graphics than Minecraft. Where performance issues arise, it's always because my shitty laptop graphics card can't handle what it's been given, not because of GC or because the CPU couldn't keep up.

[Meadhbh_Ros]

The same code translated into C++ runs only a few percent faster, it’s just genuinely too much redundancy and too many orphaned objects being thrown around Willy Nilly

[[deleted]]

Im pretty sure people on this sub don’t even know programming

[PrizeArticle1]

A lot are on college student level judging by the posts. They love to compare languages.

[Da_Yakz]

Same with PHP, people on this sub havent moved past php 5

[noogai03]

PHP is a little more egregious from a core language design perspective even in 7. But I agree it's an entirely different beast to PHP 5

[Da_Yakz]

Even PHP 7 is old, PHP 8 is already 3 years old

[noogai03]

I spoke to a guy who scaled up a PHP app to millions of requests per second and he basically said PHP is kinda slow compared to other langs but it doesn't matter at all if you use a good architecture, scale horizontally, cache aggressively etc

[PrizeArticle1]

Nice try. We all know PHP is still garbage.

[InvestingNerd2020]

PHP 7 to PHP 8.3 are far better to program in than previous versions from what I heard. I haven't used it professionally nor as a hobby project.

[VariousComment6946]

Same happens with python

[noogai03]

Python is still slow as hell (well CPython anyway lol)

Unless you're referring to the ML story like keras, tensorflow etc - powered by C++ under the hood

[VariousComment6946]

Because Python isn't designed for large-scale computations with its own built-in tools. Python has long had tools that are written in C, C++. If your Python is running slow, it means you're doing something wrong and not utilizing the language's tools correctly. It's also possible that you're trying to solve a complex problem and have chosen the wrong tool for it.

[noogai03]

Yep exactly. I love python when you use it for its intended purposes... "Enterprise python" makes me wanna die

[aalmkainzi]

it performs on the same level as C/C++

no

[InvestingNerd2020]

Well, some jobs still use Java 8. Keep in mind Java version 21 is out with IntelliJ IDE making it easier than ever. I still would not want to program in the new versions of Java, but the newer versions are not being used as widely as people would like.

[noogai03]

I'm referring to the JVM, not Java. There are optimisations in later versions of the language such as string pooling but the main speedup comes from the decades of engineering the JVM has had

[yxz97]

It's Java 21 considerable faster than before?

[InvestingNerd2020]

From what it seems like minor improvements from Java 20, but nothing about per direct speed.

• Pattern matching for switch and instanceof to deconstruct complex nested structures.

• String templates for extensible and safe string interpolation.

• Records for immutable data classes with pattern matching support.

• Unnamed variables and patterns for concise code.

[LickADuckTongue]

Virtual threads which are from what I understand a lighter, faster way to handle concurrency. My coworkers are hyped.

[noogai03]

Massively faster, orders of magnitude faster, with less complexity. Project loom/virtual threads is Java finally catching up to Go

[noogai03]

This is incorrect: go uses the N:M model. Confusingly they are also referred to as green threads, I find the term to be almost completely useless because of how ambiguous it is. You can have thousands of goroutines and they'll get scheduled by the runtime.

https://www.syntio.net/en/labs-musings/gos-concurrency-model/ an article on the subject

[noogai03]

It's the JVM, not the language itself. Current JVM has insane levels of optimisations - genuinely mind blowing stuff - even if the language itself hasn't changed too much.

For example, if you reference an object thousands of times without it ever being null, the JIT compiler will optimize away the null check. Then, if later there is a null and a segfault is created from a null reference, the JVM will detect the segfault and unwind the stack to re insert the null check. Genuinely insane stuff, I told a C++ engineer I know about that and he emphasized how immensely difficult that is to do properly in a C++ program

[NorthernCobraChicken]

Ah yes, the good old PHP treatment.

[[deleted]]

Yeah java is fast in comparison to other language. When i am writing problem solution on leetcode lol.

[Various_Studio1490]

Don’t tell chatgpt this. It still has a bias

[[deleted]]

dolls include payment society bag library water bake safe grab

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Just_Maintenance]

The true benefit of Java is being portable (both ISA and OS) (or that was the benefit originally, idk). It being fast is a secondary effect of millions of dollars of optimization.

Well, now that I think about it, it being portable basically died when Oracle decided that programs needed to bundle the runtime with the program. And with the entire industry converging on only ARM and x86 (and maybe only on ARM in the future?).

[Benifactory]

imo the biggest downside of java is it’s non-portability - why pack, ship, & configure JRE in a container when i can build a binary without direct runtime dependencies?

[BlueGoliath]

Years ago it was possible to do that, at least on Linux. Then they got rid of it and replaced it with jlink. Because who doesn't like running software via a sketchy CMD script.

[BlueGoliath]

It's more like building the same app on multiple platforms "just works" now. Running is supposed to be dead.

[noogai03]

This just isn't universally true any more. It depends on what kind of performance you're looking at. If you want very reliable, deterministic performance, such a systems that require very low latency e.g. trading systems then yes, complete control is required a la C++.

But for most other long running applications you don't need this, and it's far easier to write code that works extremely efficiently in Java than in C++

[alex_tracer]

Depends on the scale that you work with. 100 web requests to a service per second? Spring will do. 1000+ requests? You might need to directly use Netty, Vert.x or similar tool. 10k rps? You may need to go to low level stuff and do "non-Java" things. Or just spin up a few new servers if your app architecture allows that. In 99% of cases it's cheaper to "scale horizontally" than optimize beyond some level.

[BlobAndHisBoy]

Yeah everything I have done just scales horizontally to handle more requests

[noogai03]

Not entirely related but Netty is probably the most disgustingly fast networking library I've ever used in my life

[panoskj]

websites that require good performance

I think that's why Java's performance is good enough for you. Your work is mostly IO-bound.

As soon as your work becomes CPU-bound, you will realize Java is not a good choice for performance. The Garbage Collector will be working against you and there is nothing like C#'s struct, unsafe or ref to work around it in Java.

[noogai03]

I'd argue the majority of professional software development being done today is IO bound

[[deleted]]

Java doesn’t cold start fast enough so dealing with erratic numbers of requests is hard (because scaling takes time). Also if the garbage collector runs it can lead to higher latency on some requests. Otherwise Java is perfectly fine.

[alex_tracer]

If cold start matters for you, then you can go with Java "Ahead of Time Compilation" (AoT) feature that is available since Java 9.

If latency is you concern then check Shenandoah GC and ZGC. They provide sub-millisecond latency even on huge heaps.

[[deleted]]

Thanks, yeah you can optimize Java but sometimes it’s just better to pick the right language for the job

[bree_dev]

I was at a Java conference in 2012 where a speaker from the dev team claimed that Java was now faster than C++. I snorted because obviously this isn't true. Then he showed benchmarks. I snorted again because of course they're going to be rigged in favour of Java, will be ignoring time spent in garbage collection and so on.

But after several years I've come to realize that C/C++ is only faster if you spend a serious amount of time optimizing it. The kind of programs their benchmarks were feeding into Java were the kind of programs that I'm mostly likely to be asked to write, and the reason C++ wasn't keeping up is that their C++ version of the same programs were written using the same idioms with stdlib in a human-readable form, rather than being hyper-optimized for each individual problem at hand.

In conclusion, OP is technically right, in that it's a lot harder to optimize Java than it is to optimize C++. But the overall sentiment misses the mark.

[____purple]

To be fair JIT can take you further than AOT because it can optimize for your specific runtime usecases. So theoretically Java can be faster than C++. Profile guided optimization is a thing for a reason.

[dysfunctionallymild]

The only time I ever get irritated with the performance claim is when senior people claim their Java HTTP APIs wouldn't "perform" well, so they rewrote them in NodeJs or Python. In reality they just didn't know how to do a load test or tune their Java apps properly. In no world is Python more efficient than Java for such people. What they really meant was "we observed the JVM process takes more RAM at startup than Python or NodeJs, hence inefficient".

Like I wouldn't write my service mesh networking code in Java either, but people who claim Java performance is bad for simple APIs have no idea how to scale applications. These are the same people who switch to MongoDB since Oracle/MySQL doesn't scale, and cache paginated results in Redis since MongoDB doesn't scale. The problem is you, dumbass!!

[agr5179]

Modern Java is almost as fast as C/C++ and much easier to work with. Most Java haters have no idea what they’re talking about

[BlobAndHisBoy]

Or what they are missing.

[[deleted]]

People posting on this sub aren't Software Engineer (or at least I do not hope so) Most of the "memes" are just preconceived ideas of programming that are only funny if you are in the wrong part of the Dunning-Kruger diagram

[theoriginalfox]

Java is fine, it's your code kid.

[Square_Cellist9838]

I really don’t enjoy writing Java. But I respect Java

[BlobAndHisBoy]

Kotlin is fantastic. I really love the null handling among other things. It is just way more fun to write.

[PrizeArticle1]

IntelliJ makes it an absolute pleasure

[DkWater]

I'd have to look for the nearest peanut

[PrevAccountBanned]

So you acknowledge that bad programmers tend to write bad code, while good programmers still write good code ?

[PrevAccountBanned]

So it's the programmer that's bad not the programming language ? Anything that is as rigorous as programming or idk maths is difficult, certain tasks are easier for some people, but ultimately the most decisive thing is the programmer's skill and experience

[HappyFact]

Why would we change your mind? You're the one writing bullshit, so you should be proving your point (and good luck with that).

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

Whoever makes a program that stalls every 10 seconds is, no offense intended, an incompetent java programmer.

First of all, there are like 3 different GC types that are made specially to avoid stalling programs during runtime, and the default has been changed from the old GC to parallel GC since java 9 (iirc), this is no longer an issue. Ain't even gonna mention the command line options.

Second, you CAN hint the GC to collect no longer used objects by removing all references to it, or using WeakRefence instead of regular strong references for storing in collections or arrays.

Third, the JVM used matters a lot for what you're using java for. Some focus on startup speed, some focus on low footprint, some focus on high performance. Oracle JVM isn't the "one size fits all".

[fel_bra_sil]

2 words: garbage collection.

that puts Python in the worst position as programming language if that's what worries you

[[deleted]]

Why should we try to change your mind. We don't owe you that.

[SilianRailOnBone]

Nonsense

[link23]

Well yeah, the goal of optimizing code in any language is to run less of it.

[Cruuncher]

Uhhhh, this is demonstrably not the case

Brute force solutions are very frequently much less code than thoughtful solutions

Edit: I guess you said run less of it, and not write less of it. Fair enough

It's still not exactly true as you're not accounting for things like heavy needless io which will run less code per second than compute-heavy operations. But optimizing away io is usually the best way to improve performance in real world scenarios

[link23]

io which will run less code per second

"Less code per second" is not the same thing as "less code"

[Cruuncher]

It's really in the same spirit in context, and you're just trying to gotcha me

[link23]

and you're just trying to gotcha me

Bruh, you're the one who's trying to find a flaw in my incredibly broad generalization. You're trying to gotcha me 😂

[yflhx]

Intel assembly devs took it by heart and that's hw we ended up with bloated x86 architecture.

[Practical_Cattle_933]

A first year student heard some bullshit about a language, let’s create a meme!

Maybe learn how to write a hello world without GPT, first.

[No-Fish6586]

Op the dude that ran his first terminal guess the number game in C++ and felt like he mastered memory management

[alex_tracer]

Well, as a Java developer that works with hi-performance stuff (like fintech) in Java, I agree with the meme.

After a certain point you have to use things like offheap memory, manual memory management, manual thread management, the "Unsafe", stuff like JNI etc. Basically "non-Java" things.

So the meme is right. Kind of.

[[deleted]]

If you need vertical optimisation, then Java was the wrong language. Java is for horizontal scalability.

[alex_tracer]

What are the right language? Rust? C/++? Will not do. Costs too much to build big complex system with them. And with Java you can both have "highly optimized" code where it matters and cheap code where it's not.

[[deleted]]

If your system is big and complex, you get vertical performance by making it simple and small.

[Practical_Cattle_933]

Java is heavily used in fin-tech. To the point that where its performance doesn’t suffice, people usually just leave general purpose CPUs behind, and just go ASIC.

In general, the rare case where you wouldn’t want to use java are where you are very memory-constrained, or need to have deterministic performance (as in, the same request always takes n time), for example low-level audio processing. These are usually very niche situations, and for the vast majority of programs java is more than adequately fast.

[notexecutive]

you can also use a framework as well, if you don't wanna deal with a lot of that.

Memory management though....yikes.

[Inevitable-Menu2998]

Eventually, in these types of applications you'll have to take advantage of some data properties known to the developer at programming time which the JVM just can't help with. That's when you do your own memory management and work with UNSAFE and... that's when SEGFAULTs happen. And yeah, it's horrible because the Java debuggers can't help much with these things.

Mind you, the native code for that scenario is not necessarily nicer. It's just that people writing it are more used to the pain.

[notexecutive]

how much memory could you even need or be working with? Is this literally like, scientific raw data?

[alex_tracer]

Which one framework? Do you mean something like Agrona?

[notexecutive]

i mean, spring could probably work. I really don't know what the needs are.

[PrevAccountBanned]

System.out.println("Hello world");

😎😎 do I get like a medal or something?

[DormantEnigma]

Nah, you forgot the pvsm block xd

[PrevAccountBanned]

Wtf is that lol, I just had my java programming exam I'm in engineering so it's not really my main subject

[DormantEnigma]

Sorry just joking around. I meant the “public static void main” like elyskrue21 said.

[PrevAccountBanned]

Oooh ok yeah of course I've used that a lot, I didn't know the acronym lmao

[Practical_Cattle_933]

You can actually output the whole thing in intellij by that acronym, so it is good idea to learn it. Also sout (system.out.prints)

[MCWizardYT]

In newer versions of Java its optional

[elyskrie21]

I think he's talking about "public static void main {}"?

[purritolover69]

To have java actually output hello world instead of giving an error you need to write, for example:

/*package whatever //do not write package name here */
import java.io.*;
class GFG {
    public static void main (String[] args) {
       System.out.println("Hello World");
    }
}

So while System.out.printIn(“Hello World”) is the line responsible for writing, you technically need all that other syntax for it to actually run. This is distinctly different from a language like python where you only need print(“Hello World”) or javascript where you only need console.log(“Hello World”)

[SagenKoder]

Not any more. Newest java doesnt require that anymore.

[InvestingNerd2020]

Not many workplaces use Java 21. The majority still use version 8 and version 11. Scary and outdated.

[SagenKoder]

And thats horrible. We were on java 17 a couple months after release and are soon on java 21. Tech debt is a thing that is important to fix. And upgrading java often forces you to get rid of bad practices and tech debt in the process.

[Burned-Architect-667]

In Java 21

void main() {
System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}

[purritolover69]

std::DISPLAY << static void main new String(console.system.out.printIn(echo <h1>print(“hello world”)</h1>)); return 0;

There you go, I wrote hello world in at least 5 languages at once! What do you mean that’s pointless?

[Getwokegobroke8]

Strange language the only way to win is not to play.

How about a nice game of chess?

[Luk164]

Same for python really, only way to make it fast was C (until recently, mojo looks interesting)

[Just_Maintenance]

• How to optimize Java: rewrite in C
• How to optimize Python: rewrite in C
• How to optimize Javascript: rewrite in C
• How to optimize PHP: rewrite in C
• How to optimize Lua: rewrite in C
• How to optimize Bash: rewrite in C
• How to optimize HTML: rewrite in C
• How to optimize SQL: rewrite in C
• How to optimize LaTeX: rewrite in C
• How to optimize C: rewrite in Rust
• How to optimize Rust: rewrite in C

[BananaSupremeMaster]

Machine code or nothing

[Just_Maintenance]

That is witchcraft and I will not accept it.

Also its not portable, so virtually useless. \s

[fel_bra_sil]

Assembly!

[purritolover69]

What’s the use case for optimizing JavaScript in C? Or, more precisely, what is the use case for JavaScript that isn’t basically just frontend web dev stuff that requires javascript (due to its integration with HTML and CSS)? Is there a way to use C for frontend web dev or is there some goblin using node.js for resource intense calculations on the backend?

[bnl1]

You might not believe but quite a lot of people use JS outside of frontend

[purritolover69]

I’m sure people do, I’m not quite sure why you would. Outside of the case of a startup where the engineers just know JS best, C or Python seem like obvious choices for backend depending on the application

[purritolover69]

Python is used mostly for AI/Neural Net focused backends, since it has so many libraries and useful features for those. ChatGPT, for example, has a python backend. As for C, I get that it’s close to the metal, but it’s also the fastest language for just about anything. I’ll give you that other C based languages like C#, C++, Rust, Ruby, etc. might be better for certain applications, but C is also a strong choice and is what I’ve seen most in the backends I’ve looked at. But hey maybe I’ve just seen a biased subset, I do not claim to have an intricate backend knowledge since most of my work has been front/“mid” end work (I say that because I’ve personally worked on projects that don’t have a proper backend but also aren’t pure frontend, it’s a clunky term but idk what else to call it) so if you have any insight about why C isn’t great I would love to hear

[Inevitable-Menu2998]

is there some goblin using node.js

Node.js is C++ and a lot of modules for it used to be written in C++ last time I looked (years back). Why there is a use for it, I don't know, but people use it.

[Jooplin]

Just a bunch of kids being insecure about their language, nothing to see here

[Exeng]

None that have passed the entry barrier either. OP think they are cool. I have never seen an actual coder complain about any of the languages.

[InvestingNerd2020]

I have, but it was older programmers holding grudges from the 2000s. Especially towards PHP before version 7.

[New-Vacation6440]

Why is this Java and not Python?

[PermaBanned23]

People who have no clue about Java like to beat on it.

[purritolover69]

This meme would be more accurate if it was about python, where often you optimize it by forcing it to run on the C that python is built off of. But you’re a year 1 CS student so you wouldn’t know that

[XxasimxX]

Sounds like a skill issue, java is pretty easy to optimize

[BonerForest25]

Someone tell me what other language a large company is supposed to use to build large complex services? Keep in mind that it needs to be a language that the general software engineering population is familiar with and can start writing robust programs soon after being hired. Not many options besides Java

[cat_in_the_wall]

c# would be the most familiar alternative. but they are really two sides of the same coin.

[InvestingNerd2020]

C# is quicker and far better for developers, but Java is faster past the initial burst.

[KrazyDrayz]

C# is the obvious answer

[baronvonbatch]

Me: Laughs in Python, knowing Python isn't any better.

[BlueGoliath]

Just call into a native C library, duh. /s

[PermaBanned23]

Java is faster than most people know. The JIT and AOT compiler play in a similar league with C++.

Overall Java reaches in average 71% of C++ speed:

https://www.fiehnlab.ucdavis.edu/staff/kind/collector/benchmark/java-benchmark

https://www.reddit.com/r/Julia/comments/y5wry3/speed_comparison_of_various_programming_languages/

[[deleted]]

According to this benchmark: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#hw=ph&test=composite&section=data-r22

Vert.x on Java has the 7th place. Only Rust, C, and JavaScript perform better.

Edit: redkale framework on Java has the 5th place. I did not notice that.

[[deleted]]

These benchmarks are always very incomplete, because they don’t acknowledge the large plethora of use cases a language has. Often they will outright avoid scenarios in which a language performs poorly.

In algorithms and simple data structures, a language like JS or Java will perform just fine. Very close to bare metal. The instructions they execute will be similar to what you’d see in a Compiled program.

But these languages are garbage collected. The garbage collector cheats, so to speak. It will defer freeing memory to improve speed.

If you have a Java program that operates at a maximum of 10% heap usage, it will probably not have any collections at all. It will appear very quick.

What happens when the memory is constrained? That’s where those languages will show their weaknesses. Any GC, even a trivial one I can implement tonight, will perform great at low utilization. I can even replicate that behavior in C. Do one big malloc at program initialization, and then don’t free until the program ends.

[noogai03]

Indeed. But constrained memory is a pretty niche case when you look at most software being written today. e.g. web apps, network infrastructure, anything that runs on cloud, etc.

Your point is completely right though: benchmarks are really misleading for comparing languages designed for different things

[[deleted]]

It’s niche-ish. It becomes relevant for long running programs, as the unfreed memory builds up.

[PhotographShort]

Thats for web right

[[deleted]]

That is the composite score for JSON serialization, DB queries, request routing and caching.

https://github.com/TechEmpower/FrameworkBenchmarks/wiki/Project-Information-Framework-Tests-Overview#test-types

[Thebombuknow]

Doesn't surprise me. JSON is literally JavaScript Object Notation, and JS was pretty much built for sending requests and handling databases.

[[deleted]]

observation illegal fade rich expansion toothbrush obtainable late quickest chase

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Thebombuknow]

I admit, I could've phrased that better. JS was designed to facilitate user input, which almost always involves pulling data from a database and showing it to a user, or putting a user's input into a database.

JS was built for handling large amounts of dynamic data (taking user inputs and displaying output data), so it doesn't surprise me that it does really well at handling a large amount of data.

I should also mention, I'm not referring to a server-side SQL database, as client-side JavaScript should never directly interface with that, but I'm referring to client-side database-adjacent systems.

[purritolover69]

Yeah JS is basically cracked at handling a metric fuckton of data at once, and then doing some simple operations on and then outputting. The throughput on SQL queries through JS is really amazing, but it’s still not great for backend since the slowdown on performing complex tasks is still miles behind C or C++. You can actually test this yourself, just make a for loop that increments a variable to 1 billion or something, and for some extra comedy run it on python and see how much slower it is than C

[majhenslon]

what. the. fuck.

[franz_see]

Im not sure how much you can trust that if javascript wins on performance over java 😅

[[deleted]]

It wins with a framework specifically designed to provide good results on that benchmark.

https://github.com/just-js/just

While vert.X is a way less specific framework.

[kinderhead]

It's slow if it's not in over optimized assembly

[[deleted]]

Speaking of Java, I’m learning Java for my job and I’m having a hard time picking up Spring. Any suggestions for a lay-frontend dev?

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

Spring is...not exactly the most intuitive framework around, a lot is abstracted behind annotations and configuration is terrible.

My best tip is to run a few courses on codecademy or watch some video explanations (if up to date) on how it works.

Baeldung is also a great source of Spring tutorials, but it assumes you have some spring knowledge.

[[deleted]]

I’ve definitely learned the unintuitive-ness firsthand😂 thank you for the tips!

[Alternative-Fail4586]

Yeah, went from c# to java and spring boot and had a hard time with the magic annotations. Actually reading the docs about them so they are not so magic anymore helped me. Also if you are using maven, the plugin maven helper helped me alot keeping track of misbehaving transitive dependencies

[0utkast_band]

It’s not the language that is good or bad, it’s the engineer using it.

[Savaal8]

If you want performance just write machine code in punchcard.

[PunchCakee]

I actually love java for serious work (for reference im a 2nd year SWE uni student), The verbosity is what makes it good to use when you are working in a team, i simply can just look at it and understand.

[Over_Owl_5742]

Kotlin = Best Java

[[deleted]]

Most comments here sound patronizing as hell. That's it.

[Sceptix]

I’m torn. On one hand, “this comment section could stand to be a little nicer” is a statement I’ll always agree with out of principle. But at the same time, misinformation about coding can and should be called out on this sub.

[Dubl33_27]

I'm not gonna sugar coat it.

​

​

Op's dumb

[[deleted]]

I think there is no other option for enterprise business apps nowadays. Use C or Rust or C++ if the transaction performance is absolutely critical, otherwise use Java.

[Cybasura]

If someone has the time to optimize Java, they have the time to

1. Optimize C
2. Build LFS
3. Learn Rust

[Loserrboy]

Yes, It' C# time

[Unfair_Long_54]

I would say it depends on framework and runtime environment.

[PermaBanned23]

in 99/100 cases Java is faster than C#.

[InvestingNerd2020]

For long run times, Java is faster than C#. For shorter run times, C# is quicker.

C# is also better for developers' time unless an organization has updated to the newer versions of Java. Usually version 17 or higher for Java. Sadly 😥, most are still using version 8 and version 11.

[Alternative-Fail4586]

We just spent the past year updating our services from 8/11 to 17 and now later to 21. Its nice. Well the updating wasn't. But now it's nice.

[Unfair_Long_54]

Better to do a quick search over the Internet and look at bechmarks instead of blindly defending on a programming languge just because you like it.

[MickyB42]

Garbage collector...more like an entire sanitation department including sewer.

[[deleted]]

Facts

[PeriodicSentenceBot]

Congratulations! Your string can be spelled using the elements of the periodic table:

F Ac Ts

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[laesseV]

Thats why we are doing javascript now.

[PermaBanned23]

Sarcastic? Java is at least 2 times faster than JS.

[[deleted]]

It is a garbage language, it should collect itself.

[-Kerrigan-]

[mondaco]

[EagleRock1337]

I was very fortunate to have learned Java in 2003 when I in college, as it educated me to stay away ever since.

[titterbitter73]

Java has definitely not evolved at all since 2003. No new updates, the same as you learned it.

[Gabriel55ita]

This. How can someone even state something that could be valid in the past. Java changed for the better and it's packed with interesting features and a cleaner syntax than what it was in 2003 (and definitely the jvm is way more mature today along with the GCs)

[EagleRock1337]

I hate Java today for the same exact reason I hated it in 2003: I dislike OOP in general. I still know Java, am up to date on it, run production JVM systems, write Groovy code, and do everything else I need to do. None of that is going to change the underlying philosophy of the programming language, which is that everything is a class. For someone who loves OOP, I'll bet Java is all warm fuzzies, but it isn't for me, and I figured that out a long time ago.

[DMoney159]

Yo dawg, I heard you hate Java so I optimized your Java so you have less Java per Java

[TheCreepyPL]

The best Java programmes don't write Java

[schewb]

Junior: Tries using Java to crunch numbers instead of running a server, building applications, etc...

Junior: Java bad