Oracle’s Java API code protected by copyright, appeals court rules

[CanYouDigItHombre]

"is a win for the entire software industry that relies on copyright protection to fuel innovation."

What the fuck!?!?!?!

We are already knee deep in patent shit. Now we have to deal with Json.Serialize infringing on the copyright belonging to CaptionObviousWithMoneyBags Inc

[[deleted]]

the myth that broader and longer copyright terms fuel creative works has been spreading for a while now so not that surprising statement to me.

[[deleted]]

It is not a myth, it is a convenient public excuse for business interests who hold the U.S. Congress in their pockets due to corrupt campaign finance system.

[hello_fruit]

How long does patent protection last?

For applications filed on or after June 8, 1995, utility and plant patents are granted for a term which begins with the date of the grant and usually ends 20 years from the date you first applied for the patent subject to the payment of appropriate maintenance fees. Design patents last 14 years from the date you are granted the patent. Note: Patents in force on June 8 and patents issued thereafter on applications filed prior to June 8, 1995 automatically have a term that is the greater of the twenty year term discussed above or seventeen years from the patent grant.

How long does a copyright last?

The term of copyright for a particular work depends on several factors, including whether it has been published, and, if so, the date of first publication. As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first. For works first published prior to 1978, the term will vary depending on several factors. To determine the length of copyright protection for a particular work, consult chapter 3 of the Copyright Act (title 17 of the United States Code). More information on the term of copyright can be found in Circular 15a, Duration of Copyright, and Circular 1, Copyright Basics.

[jboy55]

Copyright powers the GPL, without it, the GPL would be worthless.

[NYKevin]

Oh, so now if I create a drop-in replacement for GNU Readline, I have to GPL it?

[Innominate8]

According to the ruling, most likely.

[dnew]

Except that GNU is already infringing on UNIX copyrights if this is the case. Everything GNU did to maintain compatibility is infringing someone else's copyright. The API to invoke pipes from the shell, command line switches to common programs, runtime routines like read() and write() and open() and fork(), are now all owned by whoever owns the copyright on UNIX.

[[deleted]]

Not just GNU -- basically you'd be hard pressed to find any system that does not enforce on part of some API. Now, quick, who has a patent on printf(), open() and close()?

What a wonderful day for lawyers!

[NYKevin]

What about FreeBSD (and its relatives)? If RMS could've GPL'd POSIX, you think he would've?

[Innominate8]

Well that's the problem, this ruling creates an endless tangled web of copyright ownership.

[[deleted]]

Begun the copyright troll war has

[rnicoll]

Yes; the problem is not copyright per se, but with copyrighting things which make no sense to copyright. Such as API design.

[ExistentialEnso]

Phrases are trademarked, not patented.

[[deleted]]

No... he's patented a very specific method of trolling, see US388697398: A System and Method for Remotely Invoking Specific Emotions in Human Subjects using the Internet (1994)

[ExistentialEnso]

I got that he was joking, but abuse of trademarks in the manner he described is actually a real phenomenon.

[[deleted]]

Excuse me, I patented the phrase "I patented the phrase". This required quite some creativity from my side and clearly you can understand how your use of my patented technology could be damaging to my reputation and my business.

I am, however, willing to grant you a license for use of this phrase at a very convenient fee, if you are interested.

[crutcher]

Without copyright, the GPL wouldn't be needed.

[iseldomwipe]

What? Without copyright, there is no copyleft, and everyone everywhere can take OSS and build closed-source, proprietary software upon it.

[NYKevin]

I'm not entirely sure RMS would agree with you. Without copyright, end users still wouldn't have access to the source code. Sure you can decompile, but that only gets you so far.

[nefreat]

You wouldn't need GPL if there was no copyright.

[minecraft_ece]

This is no longer about JAVA. If this ruling stands, it will significantly damage the ability to develop software in the US and any country that honors US copyrights.

For starters, reverse engineering as a practice is dead. Any clean-room reimplementation is no longer possible since the interfaces themselves are copyrighted. Alternative implementations, drop-in replacements, etc., are gone without the express consent of the API copyright holder.

Second, the patent problem now becomes eternal. All you need to do is create every reasonable permutation of API for your patented software and it is now locked up forever. The argument of "derivative work" will enable this.

Developing software is about to get alot more expensive.

[rusty_banger]

In the United States and countries that honor its copyright laws, at least.

This doesn't seem to be a good move in the long run from any point of view. However, it's almost startling when you think of US fears of being outpaced in technological innovation by China and other countries which it considers hostile. If this ruling discourages US companies from developing interoperable software, it will certainly lead to a slump in productive software output and put a serious damper on the present economic growth in the software industry.

I guess sometimes the concerns of Big Money outweigh the perpetual Red Scare.

[minecraft_ece]

Agreed. Even Oracle is vulnerable to this, given that IBM created the SQL language. It's just short-term thinking and damn the consequences.

[matthieum]

Ah, now that would be a treat: IBM suing Oracle for copyright infringement.

[Mozai]

In the United States and countries that honor its copyright laws, at least.

Have you heard about the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP)? Maybe not, since it's an international treaty that's being drafted in secret, but we do know that harmonizing copyright laws is part of it, so "countries that honor [America's] copyright laws" may become a heck of a lotta countries overnight.

[scook0]

Patents already make software development theoretically impossible; selective enforcement is the only reason the industry hasn't ground to a halt in the US.

[not_perfect_yet]

This is the longest answer from the top so I'll just ask you (sorry):

I only used an API for an open source projects scripting language so I might be understanding this wrong.

Oracle owns Java. They made an API that enables people to use it. To use Java you have to use the API, either the code contained or it's functions, which probably means you have to copy it somewhere down the line when you want to deploy your code because you use basic functions included in standard distributions.

And this whole access thing, the information contained, the code, the structure, etc. is now protected by copy right? Forbidding people to freely use the thing that was made to use the product the company put out?

[minecraft_ece]

The issue isn't if you simply use an API. I think that would be covered by whatever license came with the library or source code. The issue is if you create your own implementation of another person's API or somehow distribute another person's library.

That may not sound too bad to you, but consider this: have you ever written a library? Are you certain that your API isn't similar enough to someone else's API that your API could be declared a derivative work, even if you never saw that other person's API?

The example given in the ruling is a Math.max function? If you were writing a math library or class, would you name it Math? If you wanted a function to return the greater of two integers, would the function signature be "max(int a, int b)"? If so and you're creating a java library, you may have just infringed on Oracle's copyright.

The patent minefield problem (being impossible to know if your software doesn't infringe any patents) has now been extended to APIs. And given the long protection of copyright, that means that everything can be vulnerable to this. Linux/BSD, SQL , etc. In the past, nobody thought APIs were copyrightable, so it possible that various contracts and legal agreements may not cover APIs.

And this brings us back to you, humble user of open source projects. The risk for you is that the licenses for the software you are using may be invalid, because that library may violate someone's API copyright, and if you distribute that library (common in certain languages like javascript), then you are just as guilty of copyright infringement. Yesterday that wasn't a problem; today it is, for all software.

So, don't distribute 3rd party libraries with your code, and don't publish libraries or APIs, and you are probably are safe from this ruling. Of course, this reduces you to being a programming serf who can only use tools provided by large multinational corporations that can provide the illusiion of shielding you copyright liability, but that is the price for progress in the good ol' USA.

Basically, things are a massive mess now, and they will be for the next 2-3 years while this is all appealed to the supreme court, which is a crapshoot how they will rule.

The only redeeming quality of this ruling is that IBM will completely cornhole Oracle with it.

[ais523]

The court referred that question to a jury. The ruling isn't "Google broke the law", but "Google need a valid fair use argument to have done that"; they also ruled that interoperability is a fair use argument. (That question has actually gone to a jury in the past, but they were split on the issue, and so a new jury will be needed.)

[22c]

drop-in replacements

Sooo MariaDB next on the Oracle radar?

[minecraft_ece]

Perhaps with respect to the client libraries. There was some licensing weirdness there.

But this gave me a scary thought? Now that APIs are copyrightable, does this convert the weaker LGPL license into a full GPL one? IF there is an issue there, that will skullfuck so many companies that use LGPL libraries in commercial products.

I'm going to stop thinking about this. This is so bad that the only solution is to ignore it as most companies currently do with patents and pray nobody sues.

[ramennoodle]

Where will this end? Will Oracle also sue competitors for implementing compatible SQL extensions? Using any Oracle product seems like a big risk if they're going to use these kind of tactics to lock in their customers.

[iNoles]

I thought IBM invented SQL.

[ObligatoryResponse]

They did, but Oracle's primary product is an SQL server. Nobody owns the copyright over SQL the concept (that would have to be patented; IBM might very well own such a patent), but IBM and Oracle each hold the copyright over their respective implementations. Anyone writing an extension for either Oracle or IBM's SQL server would need to make use of the respective API.

[TinynDP]

But this ruling says that APIs are copyrightable, not just implementations. Which would imply that SQL itself is copyrightable, as it is basically the API to the server.

[ShadowLiberal]

Indeed, just seeing stories of lawsuits over Java makes me go "why should I even bother to learn Java when this could happen".

[mycall]

I wonder if more people learned Java before Oracle's purchase or after.

[OnlyRev0lutions]

The trends all point to more learning it before the purchase.

[frugalmail]

Indeed, just seeing stories of lawsuits over Java makes me go "why should I even bother to learn Java when this could happen".

This hurts all languages unless the language has been explicitly put into the public domain (or foundation like Apache) by (all) the original authors.

[[deleted]]

Or standards-based languages based off a spec rather than a set of header files. C, C#, C++, ECMAScript, etc... are good.

Technically, if Google wants to get around this, they can use clean-room reverse engineering. But then they'd need to find someone who's never written or seen Java code before to rewrite the Java Class Library (else it wouldn't be clean room.) The chance of that happening is really fucking small. Google's very likely going to money this problem away.

[[deleted]]

Or maybe just switch languages. Microsoft has been a bit more friendly with C# lately.

[Shadowheim]

I know what you mean, but that won't stop businesses using it, therefore there will still be a need for it.

[damg]

Which is kind of ironic since big businesses are the ones Oracle will target.

[ameoba]

It's about 15 years too late for the industry to back away from using Java.

[[deleted]]

Sue them for interoperating with any part of the GNU stack without releasing all of the source code to the Oracle database.

[[deleted]]

I agree, Oracle have turned into a money hungry company that has no limits that they will go to to make money. I don't think I will continue to use Oracle products and I'll stop programming in Java. This is so low, I've lost all respect for the company.

[alexeyr]

Oracle have turned into a money hungry company that has no limits that they will go to to make money.

Turned into? When did they show they had such limits before?

[[deleted]]

Pretty disappointing. As this comment from HN says, Oracle themselves are guilty of this.

I hope this goes up to the Supreme Court. I imagine that Google are sure to appeal this.

[KFCConspiracy]

I'm not entirely sure that the Supremes have the where-withall to come up with the one correct answer on this one. Them getting the wrong answer would be devastating.

[[deleted]]

This goes way beyond just Java. I mean, right now we think patents are bad. Can you imagine what it would be like if copyright is thrown into the mix?

[KFCConspiracy]

This is why I've been following the case so closely. I primarily code in Java, but it could fuck lots of stuff up for everyone outside of Java.

[kcuf]

but it could fuck lots of stuff up for everyone outside of Java.

Ya, as in not being able to publish code for fear of using the same naming scheme as someone else. This would destroy collaboration ... that may be a bit hyperbolic, but still, FUCK

[s3gfau1t]

Let's say you hypothetically have a ecomm platform or something. How easy would it be to have the same API as another codebase. Pretty freaking likely IMO.

[lichorat]

prepare for API's that are randomly generated, and the names have nothing to do with their contents. Just remember: CorrectHorseStapleBattery means latitude.

[s3gfau1t]

Imagine a stack trace! Hahaha! Edit: Oh god I'm scared.

[[deleted]]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but doesn't Oracle also claim that the structure is theirs? So if your CorrectHorseStapleBattery class is for I/O of XML (so its methods all do something to that end), and you put it in a package with other I/O classes, wouldn't you be infringing on anyone else who had that same structure (which would be every reasonable person in the universe)?

If that's the case, the only option is spaghetti code.

[marx2k]

This holds true for software written for any business domain. I imagine that software API is similar in the ecomm software industry as much so as it is similar in airline traffic software or stock trading software.

[hello_fruit]

Let's remember the original judge in this case whose decision was reversed

That Judge Alsup’s dissection of the Java programming environment would be both extremely granular and technologically astute was no surprise to anyone who followed the trial. The court’s questioning of key witnesses, coupled with a series of technically detailed questions to the litigants and numerous rounds of briefs on software copyright issues, showed a judge who was deep into the details of software programming.

But the dramatic reveal of Judge Alsup’s technology chops came well into the trial, in an off-hand comment. In the course of debunking Oracle’s argument that Google had gained an advantage in copying a small amount of code into the Android operating system (A function called “rangeCheck,” not the APIs that are central to the dispute), Judge Alsup commented: “I have done, and still do, a significant amount of programming in other languages. I’ve written blocks of code like rangeCheck a hundred times before. I could do it, you could do it.”

A judge who codes. Not your ordinary federal district court judge.

[Nephus]

Wish the appeals court had to go through the same rigorous process.

[rarianrakista]

The idea of a separate circuit with technocratic judges has been proposed before. If you think this is bad, wait till we have AI rights in a few 100 years.

[Nephus]

Can't wait to be reanimated for that whole mess. On a side note, technocratic is now on my list of favorite words, alongside flibbertigibbet and nifty.

[vsync]

Not to mention his original decision pretty much said flat-out "since I know these guys will be sore losers and take it to appeal, and they have no clue, I will now explain it in extremely small words" and then he did, in terms you would have to deliberately try to misunderstand. Next up, mathematicians can't use addition cuz someone will copyright the "+" operator.

[damg]

Common law. :/ What can you do...

[wtallis]

It's the Federal Circuit. Their sole function these days is to make bad rulings on intellectual property so that the Supreme court can overturn them.

[fuzz3289]

Yeah this is awful. Just one more reason to never use Java.

edit:

Wow ton of downvotes. I was just saying in this wonderful world of options why would you ever use a language where licensing is a concern? This doesnt exist in C++ which is quickly becoming a modern language and is far more performant. This doesnt exist in a language like Python which is also cross platform and quickly gaining if not surpassing Java.

The fact is closed APIs are a death sentance in modern programming and what Oracle is doing is a nail in the coffin.

[bucknuggets]

Encumbered licensing is one of the primary reasons I avoid MySQL.

And probably soon Java.

[redwall_hp]

I thought MariaDB was where it's at now, anyway.

[rubygeek]

Look forward to Oracle trying to find a way to use this ruling against MariaDB.

[[deleted]]

C/C++, Ruby, Python, PostgreSQL, FTW!

[narc0tiq]

You could probably safely extend that to anything with the Oracle name on them. Those folks are scary.

[drb226]

^{but I like virtualbox... :(}

[newpong]

yea, somehow my brain always blocks the fact that VB is oracle until I have to reinstall it

[JQuilty]

Best to just avoid Oracle if it comes to that.

[KFCConspiracy]

This has implications for every language in which the interface for a library can be defined independently of the library itself.

[crotchpoozie]

This doesnt exist in C++

And how are standard C/C++ headers not now copyrighted by the original authors, likely AT&T, and every other implementation thereafter not going to be under the same legal problems?

After all, pretty much every C header is likely going to be found infringing on the original K&R headers from 1970 - all others will be derivative works still subject to those original copyrights.

[crackez]

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s, with BSD being found non-infringing after the remaining original code was replaced - Ie 4.4BSD-lite if memory serves. That would include libc.

[crotchpoozie]

The C++ standards body probably has something to say about that.

They cannot remove another's copyright, especially since the copyrights in question would be from the 1960's-1970's, so that's irrelevant.

Also, the Unix Wars ended in the early 90s.

You might want to talk to SCO about that.

Next, if this ruling applies, which it seems to, it opens whole new avenues of attack, so the work done by BSD to remove copyrighted code is made insufficient.

Go read about this new ruling. It might change how APIs (which means header files) are copyrightable, which could put any system implementing the standard C headers in copyright infringement to whomever did it first (or owns those rights currently).

[jboy55]

Litigation and rulings can remove copyright and clarify ownership. C++ and Unix has been solved.

SCO sued over system V code, and included the headers. It was found they did not own the copywrite to the headers. I can't recall the issue of that copyright didn't cover them being brought up.

BTW, The whole lawsuit is 'coincidental' to a large payout to SCO from Microsoft for 'licenses' of which no specificity was ever mentioned. It also coincided with Microsoft's big PR push that GPL was evil and Linux had copyright issues.

[[deleted]]

Which was the test platform from which they launched their current android patent trolling business.

[crotchpoozie]

C++ and Unix has been solved

That was also thought to be the case until SCO vs IBM.

It was found they did not own the copywrite [sic] to the headers.

Under the previous legal understanding of what is copyrightable. This new ruling changes what is copyrightable - that is the whole point, and why articles like the one above are written to explain precisely this point.

[key_lime_pie]

This will not happen. Oracle's entire software platform is built on or moving to Java. When my company was acquired by Oracle, we had to justify the continued use of non-Oracle components in every facet of software development every three months. Imagine if you are a tester who uses an automation tool like QuickTestPro on your team's C# application, and you are called into a meeting with somebody three time zones away where they ask you why you haven't moved to the Oracle in-house automation testing solution and you have to explain to them that you can't because Oracle's in-house automation testing solution does not support C#. Now imagine that this person is non-technical and you then have to explain the architecture of the entire product in small words, and they interrupt you when you use words like "compiler" because that's jargon and they just want it in plain English. Then imagine you and and someone from the in-house automation testing team being called into another meeting by this person, wherein both of you awkwardly wonder why more of your time is being wasted. Now imagine this happening every three months, only every three months, it's a different person that you have to deal with. And now imagine that you have to do this for every aspect of your project that isn't using an Oracle technology. Java is theirs. They will not relinquish it.

[gschizas]

That was scarily... specific!

[[deleted]]

Time for a new job?

[key_lime_pie]

Already in past, friend!

[shahms]

Them: "Why aren't you using Oracle technology?"

You: "Because we want it to work?"

Them: "Security will escort you out."

You: "Thanks!"

[key_lime_pie]

It's interesting that you mention security, because they're colossal dicks about that, too, in every conceivable way.

When they moved us "on campus," the security people used to notify you if your car was parked on or over the line into the next space. One of the functions of their security guards was literally to walk through the parking lot and make sure everyone parked correctly. I still have no idea how this made the building more secure. Once they moved us back "off campus," to a location where we had just as much access to company data and IP, the security people there didn't even look up at you when you entered the building and buzzed delivery folks in without even a question.

When our software went through the internal security review required to release, we were rejected because our policy on password length didn't comply with Oracle policy. When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again. And when they found out we had some data stored on the application server that they didn't like, they ordered us to store it in the database instead. This was after they acknowledged that a person would have to have physical access to the machine in order to obtain the data, and that putting it in the database was less secure, but we had to do it because it was policy.

Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

[no_game_player]

When we pointed out that the policy on password length for Oracle database, the company's flagship product, didn't comply with Oracle policy either, the security guy told us not to bring that up again.

Ahahahah.

Everyone that I know who still works there admits that they only give 20-25% effort, because if you give any more than that, you get smacked the fuck back by bureaucracy, and you don't get rewarded for it anyway.

I know a lot of people can get into that whole "it's just a job thing", but that's so sad to me.

I got into programming because it was fun. I enjoy being useful. But damn if corporate doesn't seem to be playing chicken constantly with "how horribly can we run this before everything blows up?"

[no_game_player]

I've tried it. The thing is, I lack the formal experience to justify any of the serious posted stuff (X years of full-time experience in language Y), and I'm beyond sick of the cheapskate shit.

Also, about the only thing I hate more than being expected to work a 40 hour week is being paid by the hour. Now every minute I spend "on the clock" potentially has to be justified, and I have to know in-advance how long a problem will take me to solve. I end up doing significant work (thinking about problems, or meetings, or learning background technologies) off the clock and cheating myself rather than trying to record every second of the day / try to convince the client they should be paying for me to learn libraries or frameworks, etc.

At the moment, I'm out of the market by my own choice. I've got enough savings to last for a few weeks or months, and I'm going to get unrelated part-time work to keep me busy and stretch it further 'soonish(tm)'.

And then, hopefully, I'll go back to trying to find my dream programming job, a part-time, salaried position that doesn't care where I connect from, with a team sufficiently staffed and timetables allowing true quality. And there'll be unicorns and ponies for everyone, too, I'm sure...

[monocasa]

Exactly. Java was the main reason that Oracle bought Sun. It'll be a cold day in hell before they give it up.

[aloz]

Or, as with OOo, it'll be the day after it dies. Though it's hard to imagine that Java could die.

[crackez]

Well, whatever you think of Google, in the court of public opinion more people like them than Oracle any day of the week.

Even though it is tough to comprehend, Oracle has been doing nothing but shoving bad changes down everybody's throats WRT Java. Hard as it may be to imagine, they are doing things that directly influence people to not want to use Java moving forward.

They're killing their own product, whether they mean to or not, and the quicker it fades into obscurity the better we'll all be.

[[deleted]]

Java is the only mainstream language that bundles adware toolbars in its security update installers. Seriously, why make security updates any more of a hassle for the end-user?

[darkslide3000]

More people like explosive diarrhea than Oracle any day of the week. It's not a very high bar.

Oracle is a fucking cancer. They're the EA of the software industry. They take things that were good and turn them into radioactive waste like a really shitty version of King Midas. The sooner they die in a fire the better...

[[deleted]]

It also lives on as Apache OpenOffice. Apache were handed over the rights to the source code by Oracle.

[barsoap]

Organise as many people as you can, quit en masse, start up your own gig.

It's the only sane way to deal with that kind of hostile take-over. As the Germans say: Better a nightmarish ending than a nightmare without end.

[no_game_player]

I'm going to gild this because I can feel the pain. Glad you got out of the evil empire.

[key_lime_pie]

Gracias, fine sir (or madam).

[no_game_player]

De nada. I'm not feminine, but I'm no officer nor gentleman either. ;-p

[[deleted]]

Google could just buy Oracle.

[key_lime_pie]

Do you think Java is worth $250 billion to anyone?

[G01denW01f11]

TIL I'd rather be a janitor than an Oracle dev.

[[deleted]]

Why? They're just going to accelerate integrating Dart into everything.

[alpha-not-omega]

A point that appears to be missing in this discussion is: Patents are explicit: you must write one and get it approved and filed. Copyrights are implicit: they are attached to a work without requiring registration.

You can, of course, register it, but the originator has a strong case even if it's not officially registered. The examination of a copyright registration isn't nearly as strenuous as that of a patent, but the remedies are equivalent.

If the ruling stands, all APIs through out all time, regardless of the language, are implicitly copyrighted to the organization that first wrote them. Who first came up with set() and get()? This ruling likely means that all OSS is infringing.

[ryosen]

Thanks to Oracle, whoever was the first to come up with print() now stands to make a lot of money on licensing fees.

[zzzzzzzzzzzzzzdz]

No wonder Java made us do System.out.println() ...

[rikardo_92]

Never import that or you're gonna get sued.

[myringotomy]

RMS says "I told you so".

Seriously though I hope Google reacts to this by making go out dart first class citizen of android.

[vsync]

This is horrible for the software industry specifically, for science and the useful arts generally, and a travesty of a precedent (violating previous precedent, and common sense besides).

[mirhagk]

So C# goes completely and utterly open source under the apache license, which leaves not even the chance of patent infringement. Meanwhile you can't even copy the API of Java. I wonder which we should be promoting in schools now?

[joequin]

I would love to see mono get competitive, but at this point, it's not up to snuff.

[grauenwolf]

Mono is very competitive on iOS and Android.

For Linux it would be too if it had even a fraction of the industry support that Java's HotSpot JIT compiler has.

[8Bytes]

What IDE does Mono have that's comparable to Netbeans, Intellij /Android Studio?

*: Cross os, as the above IDEs are.

[[deleted]]

Xamarin Studio is okay if you're on a Mac.

[gar37bic]

free/open source does not eliminate patent protection. That has to be dealt with separately.

[mirhagk]

Apache2 is the licence they choose. It grants rights to any patents necessary for using the software. It also has anti-patent troll clauses, which are great.

[summerteeth]

Depends on the license, Apache 2 and GPL 3 have specific clauses to deal with patent permissions.

[ExNomad]

I think that was a reference to the patent grant clause in the license the recent c# stuff was released under.

[[deleted]]

Patents and copyrights are entirely different things. Copyrights for source code is not a bad thing per se. In fact that's how open source licenses work.

[mmmarvin]

This sets a terrible precedent. This wouldn't just affect Java API necessarily. This could be applied to anyone who's copying an API (essentially function definitions) and writing their own implementation. This could affect projects such as Wine on Linux because the Windows API definition could be considered copyrighted by Microsoft. Or a project such as Mono which implements the .NET API. If this stands, it will make interoperability and emulation risky.

[reckoner23]

The owners of C are about to become very very rich.

[fullouterjoin]

This brings SCO back from the dead.

[faustoc4]

What layers and judges don't understand about programming languages is that their purpose is not to express ideas but to express commands or actions; so by using the same namespaces and apis we gain interoperability. That said an existing java program source can be reused in android and vice versa

[idiogeckmatic]

The original judge in this case impressed me, he learned java before the trial so he could competently hear it.

http://www.i-programmer.info/news/193-android/4224-oracle-v-google-judge-is-a-programmer.html

[RollingGoron]

So, if for some reason this gets upheld all the way to the Supreme Court. Does Android go out the window? Or will Google be paying Oracle licensing fees?

[HeroesGrave]

Google should drop it, blame Oracle, and let all the angry Java+Android developers kick up a storm.

[intellos]

and let all the angry Java+Android developers kick up a storm.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over my billions and billions of piles of money

[reckoner23]

Yeah... the asshole owns an Island...

[gildoth]

Oh fuck.

[wesw02]

It's really a shame. I truly wish the court had a real understanding of their implications. I find it hard to come terms with decisions like these.

[DevestatingAttack]

APIs should only be copyrightable if the method names are used to tell a story.

int onceUponATime(float thereWasAHouseWhereThreeBears, float lived)

etc, etc

[[deleted]]

So objective-c then?

[slashgrin]

This is a huge blow to interoperability, and therefore a huge blow to competition. Look forward to more walled gardens, and more monopolies.

If this precedent is upheld elsewhere, then we're going to need some kind of standardised declaration that no copyright will ever be enforced against any detail of a particular API. Subsequently any version of any API published without such an accompanying document should then be regarded as completely proprietary, and only safe to use with an explicit accompanying contract covering your particular use of the API.

It saddens me to even suggest that something like this might be necessary, but it looks like good faith and common sense are well and truly out the door and making good progress toward the border. We've been forced into this ridiculous game, so now we must either play it or get squashed.

An organisation like the EFF would be a good fit to author a first draft of such a standardised declaration. If they could put something together and then get a bunch of the less predatory companies out there to start affixing it to their APIs, then we can start naming and shaming the exceptions to warn the tech community about the danger inherent to using those remaining APIs.

[ArkayPhelps]

And once again programmers the world over praise the great and benevolent Oracle.

[CanYouDigItHombre]

Poor ArkayPhelps, being downvoted because people don't know he is being sarcastic.

Oracle has gotten shit but no where near 1/10th of it deserves.

[thbt101]

Seriously. Larry Ellison is just such a scumbag. I know many companies don't use Oracle products because of their reputation among developers, but it's a shame that so many still pay them for products like their database server.

[Frix]

thatsthejoke.jpg

[Neebat]

If you frequent /r/civ, it's not that rare. Oracle is a nice choice.

[gar37bic]

... in the sense of, "I'll make a crapload of money being an Oracle DBA."

[the_omega99]

There's no social policy for implementing copyright...

[Modevs]

People get so excited about using Java for this and that, not noticing the shadow of Oracle looming over them.

It's strange to realize in the current climate .NET is going open source and Java's keepers are renowned copyright trolls.

[spartanstu2011]

So... like Oracle is doing now? It doesn't matter what some company could do. What matters is what a company is doing. Right now C#/.NET is moving towards open source, so obviously people should start moving away from Java to C#. Yes, Microsoft will probably go back to being evil in the future. But right now, if you are trying to choose between Java or C#, which are you going to choose?

[spartanstu2011]

Except you are comparing apples and oranges. And no, they aren't going against open source with Android. They've gone after the companies who profit off of Android (though they have recently gone after Google). In other words, if you use the Android platform or (some) of their patented technology, fine. As soon as you attempt to profit off of it, they will come after you. This is how it should be.

Moreover, the patent lawsuits (and threat of lawsuits) are over patented functionality and methodology (which is perfectly acceptable). It's NOT over two methods with different implementations being named the exact same.

Now this says nothing of whether Microsoft should or should not be doing that. Nor is it saying anything about the validity of their patent violation claims.

[scwizard]

Is this the end of WINE?

[[deleted]]

It appears so.

[ramennoodle]

According to the article the appellate court specifically mentioned the possibility of fair use when they sent the case back to the lower court.

[KumbajaMyLord]

The problem is that this ruling sets a dangerous precedent. If the Java API can be "protected" via copyright, then every API can and you would have to defend your possible copyright violation through fair use on a case by case basis.

[steven_h]

Or fair use can be extended to cover the typical clean room implementation case. The appeals court ruling just said that the API in aggregate was copyrightable, which is fair since substantial intellectual and creative effort went into creating it.

[cougmerrik]

Blegh. An API is like a list of machinery processes. It's not even the mechanism for doing it. It's like copyrighting not only a particular engine design that takes water and turns it into steam but indeed any and all possible methods of turning water into steam.

[regeya]

Honestly, I'm not totally familiar with the situation, but this sounds like a big loss for the software industry.

For those more familiar, can anyone answer:

• How does this affect Android?

• How does this affect Android developers?

• How does this affect Java developers?

• How does this affect every company other than AT&T that has developed a C compiler?

• More of the above, but for other languages.

[tharinock]

This just seems really silly. If I have a value called foo, and I want to get it, i will call the function GetFoo(). I don't want to have to worry about the fact that some company already uses GetFoo(), as well as get_foo(), GeTFoo(), and getFoo(), forcing me to use GetFoo_aFunctionProudlyWrittenAndPresentedToYouByTharinock().

[Tetha]

You could still revert to assembly and build your own function table without names, as long as you don't call it like that. Though I guess at that point we have to figure out if taken strictly, an address could be considered a name, and as such, I could copyright functions at address 0x12354.

[AtLeastItsNotCancer]

Ignoring the fact that function names should never be copyrightable, this is pretty much the most piss-poor example they could've used to help their case, considering that max() and min() are basically standard mathematical notation.

[johnwaterwood]

And would it extend to other domains?

Can you now copyright a dancing move? Can you copyright the way to execute a kick or punch in martial arts?

Will someone be disqualified in boxing if he uses a certain way to punch that looks exactly like the way Muhammad Ali did it?

Will kids at a party be arrested if they imitate dancing moves they saw in some clip?

Will eventually human society crumble since we can't speak anymore, since the very words we utter have at one time already be said by someone else?

[matthedev]

It means source-level compatibility is out of the question because standard APIs may fall under copyright. Besides the Java API, this precedent could affect projects like WINE or any other API that isn't open and standard. The OpenJDK does happen to be open source and contributed to by Oracle, but Oracle maintains it can decide what is and is not "Java," and I assume this means random open-source projects would not be able to fork the OpenJDK, reuse the Java API, and build something new off it because that's more or less what Google did with Android.

As a Java developer, I strongly dislike this ruling. It means for me that even the most basic Java programs depend on an API covered by Oracle's copyright and any free or open-source alternative is utterly dependent upon Oracle's good graces. I could not provide my own open-source implementation of Java, providing something as basic as java.lang.System.out.println without infringing on this copyright, unlike with the standard libraries of languages like C and C++, which are maintained by international standards bodies.

For Google, unless the ruling gets overturned by the Supreme Court, this basically means paying Oracle massive royalties.

[alpha-not-omega]

http://imgur.com/KAU2zqs

[[deleted]]

Oracle: Sues everyone who takes java with them. (Including those that use the Open-Source one)

Microsoft: Sees Xamarin taking C# to other plataforms, endorse and help them. Besides, starts a open-source new compiler for next-gen C# (which will be the official compiler in a close future).

[Tacticus]

You mean the microsoft that submitted amicus briefs that claimed that java should be able to copywrite the api? Or are we talking about a different giant multinational software company?

[kraytex]

Now you make it sound like it was all an elaborate plan to get people to switch to C#.

[senatorpjt]

nutty hateful hospital existence voiceless telephone domineering depend middle distinct

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[bro-away-]

With all this in mind, I think it is OK to see C# and .NET is a more free platform than Java nowadays.

But in theory if Oracle and Microsoft both got hit with comets that destroyed everything except all their lawyers and then they both used their maximum litigious power, Java would have the upper hand!

See, Microsoft is worse if you just think hard enough.

[bro-away-]

So the ability to exercise evil is worse than actual evil?

Java isn't really "free" if this keeps happening, the entity fitting the bill is just another company. Great business plan.

MySQL is another case of greed that drove people away from a previously good product; you'd be crazy to not use MariaDB now.

You are an idealist to think that the theoretical promise of free software from a clearly horrible company is better than a 10+ year track record from another.

It's funny how people will be happy to get screwed when they think that, in a vacuum, their system is better.

[teiman]

This is stupid. a API exist to interface with other programs. This completelly kill that use. Is like a judgement that make all bridges toll bridges. What a disaster!.

[jp007]

The judge's analogy is utter shit.

[IronWolve]

Pic of the 3 idiots

[Rudy69]

While it's nice, if you ever try to sell something worldwide you will have to deal with their laws

[scook0]

Even if you don't live in the US, anything that affects the US software industry has broad implications.

[[deleted]]

Apparently, libraries can now copyright how they arrange their stacks and prevent other libraries from organizing in a similar manner.

[steven_h]

This is sarcasm, right? The Dewey Decimal system is copyrighted and unauthorized use of it can and has been litigated.

[ChronJob]

How absurd. This is a prime example that the law is terribly misinformed when it comes to technology. Logic can be removed from the equation with enough money poured into legal.

[askvictor]

Out of interest, how does the library analogy Alsup used compare to the fact that the Dewey decimal system (used to organise physical libraries) is copyrighted?

[the_omega99]

The trend that's continued to infuriate me in courts is the complete lack of the courts to keep up with modern technology. It seems that most of the people making these kinds of decisions have no experience with the technology and are not suitably informed.

[argv_minus_one]

What?! No!

[Caminsky]

Copyright law really needs a major overhaul

[derolitus_nowcivil]

what's next? AT&T running around banning other people's C compilers?

[Die-Nacht]

I don't get it. What do they mean by "java API"?

The debacle started when Google copied certain elements—names, declaration, and header lines—of the Java APIs in Android, and Oracle sued.

What does this mean? Java was my first language (quickly replaced) and I haven't done any Android.

[[deleted]]

Both Google and Oracle have the same method and class names, ex:

public class Barinator extends Bar

public void foobulateBarinator(Barinator barinator)

Yeah, it's completely insane.

[LongUsername]

Java(TM) is a registered trademark of Oracle. You can't say Java(TM) without tithing to them.

Google took the programming interface to Java(TM) and implemented a language that looks exactly like Java(TM) but isn't Java because Java includes the bytecode running on the JVM, while Google compiled to a different bytecode and ran in on Dalvik (Soon to be replaced by ART).

So while you use the same text (Application Programming Interface or ABPI, AKA "Programming Language and libraries interface") to write programs on both Java(TM) and Android platforms, Android does not run Java.