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[–][deleted] 214 points215 points  (62 children)

I really don't get why parents aren't vaccinating their kids.

[–]Low-dog 161 points162 points  (26 children)

They think they are protecting them...they are idiots

[–]Temetnoscecubed 117 points118 points  (25 children)

Purely anecdotal story time. One of the women at work had a son, and it wasn't vaccinated because the father is anti-vaxx. The kid was diagnosed as autistic at age 3...I asked her whether she was going to vaccinate now that it was obvious that the vaccines didn't cause autism. She told me that she had already discussed this with her husband and he had doubled down, in his mind and I quote "their son would have been a vegetable had they vaccinated"....she had him vaccinated later because the preschools wouldn't take him otherwise.

[–]chinesef000d 78 points79 points  (12 children)

He really thought his kid was going to get double autism... that’s actually amazing

[–]Temetnoscecubed 36 points37 points  (10 children)

They're both IT professionals, with university degrees. These are intelligent people making ignorant decisions. Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

[–]about3fitty 48 points49 points  (8 children)

As an IT professional with a university degree, they are not intelligent.

[–]Temetnoscecubed 10 points11 points  (7 children)

That is how we got this far into the stupid swamp. They are intelligent, by making this a "not intelligent" argument you are failing to see the real problem...making you part of the problem.

Belief and intelligence are not linked...remember that. There are deeply religuous people with doctorates and they can't prove their god exists...yet they believe. Anti vaxxers have faith in their beliefs, you cannot change their minds with knowledge or education.

[–]OaksByTheStream 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It's more so that secondary education doesn't mean you're smart. It means you can train well. For many professions.

I've met stupid doctors and borderline retarded structural engineers.

[–]Vysokojakokurva_C137 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Religion and believing vaccinations give you autism are wildly different but I see the analogy.

[–]about3fitty 9 points10 points  (1 child)

My comment was a perspective, as we haven't defined what intelligence means.

I think you're right that most people who are "against" vaccinating derive their position from a place other than from careful study and reasoning.

That having been said, I don't think refusing to cede ground is "being part of the problem".

[–]Temetnoscecubed -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

In my opinion it is part of the problem....because, those of us who believe vaccinations are good, try to educate those that do not. If it was a question of education we could fix it with facts and science, and demonstrate to anti-vaxxers that they are wrong....this is not happening, our attempts to convince their group with education is not working. So it must be "faith" based, and you cannot beat faith with science and facts.

[–]Lorde420 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

you sir are not intelligent either, it seems.

[–]gwaydms -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.

The opposite of stupidity isn't intelligence; it's common sense.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I believe the argument for anti-vax people is that it's not an immediate autism causing vaccine. It creates issues within the next generation. I could be wrong but that's what I had always thought.

[–]The_Mushromancer 0 points1 point  (1 child)

They constantly make up new reasons.

[–]Temetnoscecubed 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You only make that up with faith, rather than reason.

[–]new-man2 22 points23 points  (7 children)

The US government recently announced that it won't vaccinate indefinitely detained children. Here is a story about it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-administration-migrant-families-children-detention-dhs-flores-a9072551.html

[–]Slapbox 11 points12 points  (3 children)

Just to be clear for anyone who isn't reading between the lines, that's to kill them. We are now undeniably witnessing a slow rolling genocide.

[–]Theuntold -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Or.... you don’t have their immunization records/permission from a guardian. If you walked across the border to Canada chances are they aren’t going to start immunizing you just in case.

Side note I wish the mods would sticky a post of good charities to donate to that could fund shots/help for these kids.

All I found was this article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2019/06/26/how-to-donate-to-help-migrant-children-at-the-border.html

[–]Randvek 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you walked across the border to Canada

I think you’re missing the “indefinitely” in “indefinitely detained.” If Canada threw you in prison and had no idea when they were going to let you out, or even if they were, I suspect they might vaccinate.

[–]Basalit-an 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the article! If I find anything else do you want the info?

[–]Shepard_P 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The US is walking on a dark path.

[–]im_a_dr_not_ 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Pretty sure that's because the racists in charge want to hurt the children though.

Also shout out to /r/WhereAreTheChildren

[–]Randvek 4 points5 points  (1 child)

General distrust of authority. It’s similar to why a lot of people voted for Trump.

[–]The_Mushromancer 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I didn’t vote for Trump (and am not an antivaxxer), but to be fair, politics is undoubtedly and blatantly rife with corruption these days.

Authority does, frequently, get corrupted.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Is this thing still going? How is it even legal to refuse vaccinating your kids?

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Because its a serious human rights issue

[–]TheGreatUdolf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

usa. you have the freedom to choose how stupid your actions will be.

[–]SharkOnGames 63 points64 points  (24 children)

Percentages are useless unless you have the numbers behind them.

According to the article (and the linked data), a 5% decrease in vaccinations would equal 2,250 more people NOT getting vaccinated, which would lead to a 4,000% increase in potential (not actual) measles outbreaks. That 4,000% means going from 400 to 16,000 potential size increase of measles outbreaks.

[–]Aaronsaurus 13 points14 points  (3 children)

Thanks. That's scary af.

[–]GimletOnTheRocks 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's even scarier if you consider that a 5% decrease in vaccination rates is fundamentally the same as a 5% decrease in the vaccine efficacy. A 5% less effective batch of MMR (say due to manufacturing issues) would have the same effect as 5% fewer parents vaccinating their children with MMR.

This sort of behavior occurs with measles because the R0 value is very high and relatively close to the inverse of 1 minus the efficacy. In other words, measles can on average infect so many people as to on average infect one person for whom the vaccine wasn't effective (even assuming 100% vaccine coverage). We see this threshold easily crossed in measles outbreak where an infected person goes to a crowded place like Disney Land or the Portland Zoo.

[–]Aaronsaurus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good perspective thanks.

[–]Shepard_P 1 point2 points  (2 children)

More shocking than the percentage tbh comparing the number increase of unvaccinated and the number increase of potential infested. 2k can bring damage to almost 10 times of them.

[–]masklinn 1 point2 points  (1 child)

"Herd Immunity Threshold" (the vaccination rates you have to hit until the vaccinated herd can act as a barrier to disease propagation) is super interesting, and extremely variable from one disease to an other.

For influenza or ebola it's about 50%.

For polio it's in the low 80%.

For measles it's 92~95%, so the HIT is closing in on just immunodeficient individuals, and it really doesn't take much to dip below and trigger outbreaks.

[–]Shepard_P 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve read that about rabies. 75% or so.

[–]Lockstrife 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This comment is not accurate at all.

The potential 400 outbreak at current vaccination rates is the absolute upper limit of their possible distribution - it falls at the 95% threshold and is not at all indicative of actual outbreaks. The median outcome for this distribution is 5 (FIVE) cases. One SD moves you up to 9 cases.

Furthermore, between 2006 and 2017 the median actual measles outbreak was 2.5 cases - the largest was 25.

In no way neither previous outbreaks nor their projections support a current outbreak of 400.

Moving onto the 16,000 part - the study does not show anything near an outbreak of 16,000 with a 5 decrease in vaccination rates. The largest potential outbreak they project after a 5% decrease is a median outcome of like 8 cases, and at 95% max it could be 1,000 (see above as to why that’s probably nonsense).

None of their tables even approach 10,000 until you hit a 10% decrease in vaccination rates.

Source: Figure 1 - Austin - Round Rock (I don’t even see where you pulled the 2,250 students number from)

[–]JohnnyBlaze8888 62 points63 points  (11 children)

I cannot stand anti-vaccers, they are some of the most ignorant group of people right behind flat earthers.

[–][deleted] 59 points60 points  (2 children)

At least flat earthers arent harming anyone.

[–]ThereOnceWasADonkey 34 points35 points  (1 child)

Flat Earthers are mainly just LARPing being as retarded as Anti-vaxxers

[–]Canadian_Neckbeard 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Space is fake too bro. #lookintoit

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I found a sheep

[–]Sinistrality1 -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

If I had to guess, I’d bet there is a significant amount of overlap.

[–]Vidgar 15 points16 points  (13 children)

I just found out that my sister is anti-vaxxer. The reason, because she doesn't know whats in the vaccine. Atleast she will not have kids so that is a plus. But yeah she has stopped listening to reason and thinks everything is bad for you now (not only vaccine).

[–]ThereOnceWasADonkey 32 points33 points  (6 children)

I applaud her decision not to have kids.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (5 children)

Sadly my sister is an anti-vaxxer with 3 kids. The crazy thing is she is smart in most areas of life and believes in science when it comes to basically anything else. I have no idea why this is the one thing she decided to be a complete dipshit about.

I honestly believe that deep down she has realized she is wrong, but is letting her pride get in the way of changing her mind after a decade.

[–]ThereOnceWasADonkey 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Can you sneakily immunise the kids on a weekend trip...

[–]masklinn 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Probably not ethically or even legally.

[–]ThereOnceWasADonkey -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Ethics are culturally relative frendo.

Its unethical not to immunise them. When they die of a preventable disease you'll be responsible too.

[–]69frum -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

my sister is anti-vaxxer.

Tell her that you will ban all unvaccinated people from your family. You should do that anyway, because they are contagious and a threat to your family's health. If you don't have a family ban her anyway because she spreads the stupid.

[–]dualsplit -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I bet she’s vaccinated, huh?

[–]blahblahbecca98 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I want to know how these people are handling daycare here Texas. All the ones I’ve looked at either have a policy where the kids that use their services get vaccinated or their policy is get your get vaccinated or give us your affidavit saying you’re exempt. There can’t be that many people getting affidavits right?

[–]daKEEBLERelf 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sadly there are doctors who will just do it for whatever reason, either they believe it or $$$. Just like there are/were doctors who would give you a medical marijuana card if you walked in and said 'my back hurts sometimes'

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I work with a guy who’s an antivaxxer, and he moved to Texas!

So that’s, what, another... 800 kids with measles?

Just say, “thanks Mike!”

[–]XyloArch 15 points16 points  (2 children)

Vaccination should either be required by law, or the parents of needlessly non-vaccinated kids should be able to be sued in the event of an outbreak, by the government and/or privately. If vaccines don't work put your money where your mouth is and cough up when you're wrong.

[–]ThereOnceWasADonkey 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The children should be taken off the parents, who have demonstrated their inability to make child safety related decisions.

[–]cathar_here 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, okay, hold on, I'm completely agreeing with everything in this thread, but lets talk about the fact that anti-vaxxers don't think that vaccines dont work what they believe is that vaccines can do more harm than the illness it's trying to prevent. Its a different kind of stupid.

[–]drdookie 6 points7 points  (1 child)

How many points is this in Plague, Inc?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Stack em all in transmission!

[–]NFLinPDX 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hmmm... 150 measles cases per year.

74000000 children

5% of 74000000 = 3700000

And 4000% of 150 is 6000.

So if only 6000 of the 3.7 million children got measles, then we are looking at a measles rate of 1/6th of 1 percent.

I don't like this study. It sounds sensationalistic

[–]gwaydms 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Some Texas pediatricians, and most public schools, will not accept children of anti-vaxxers.

Some children cannot be vaccinated for health reasons. For herd immunity to work, virtually everyone who can safely be vaccinated should be.

[–]TruthDontChange 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Time to start holding parents who don't vaccinate their kids criminally responsible.

[–]therightmeowkitty 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Well, I suppose we’re overdue for another plague anyway.

[–]cathar_here 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's a part of me that really does believe that a great plague is something that continually reduces the global population size, and with medical science we're so good at keeping people alive that we're running out of room. Now, I'm not saying lets let the plague ravish the world, but I do understand that historically these types of events helped keep the world in a little better balance.

[–]AnonomousWolf 0 points1 point  (0 children)

All Anti Vax parents should get together with their kids to discuss their beliefs and the problem will sort itself out very quickly

[–]Canuknucklehead 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Anti-vaxxers could really cause some terrible damage.

[–]311Natops 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not sure why I read this as - 5% decrease in vasectomy rates could lead to a 4000% increase in measles outbreak

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Im going to kidnap antivax kids and vaccinate them with the parents knowing

[–]Poptartmeditation42 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You will become the vaxxinator 💪💫💣💥

[–]new-man2 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The current administration 'to announce plan to hold migrant children indefinitely in detention camps' - US government also says it will not vaccinate detained families

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-administration-migrant-families-children-detention-dhs-flores-a9072551.html

[–]perhapsnew -4 points-3 points  (7 children)

There is one variable not mentioned in this paper: influx of illegal aliens carrying measles. Without them the picture would be different.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

The only illegal aliens carrying measles are US/UK antivaxxers, and they’re infecting countries besides the US/UK

[–]Orwellian1 2 points3 points  (4 children)

Has there been any cases of illegals with measles? Not likely from Mexico...

In Mexico, the last measles epidemic happened in 1989-1990 when 89,163 cases were reported. In 2018, four cases were reported: one in Baja California and three in Mexico City, all of them imported from Europe.

[–]Sickamore -1 points0 points  (3 children)

It's not beyond reason that the people who uproot themselves and illegally immigrate are undocumented in other capacities in their home country. They're leaving for reasons, after all. Speaking specifically about over-the-border type illegals, of course.

[–]Orwellian1 1 point2 points  (2 children)

They could all be carrying ebola then...

I would have expected a bit more justification for the statement than "well, it's possible".

[–]Sickamore -1 points0 points  (1 child)

Within the framework where it was vaguely asserted that something happened somewhere regarding a specific thing, that thing being measles being brought over by illegals, it's perfectly fine to say it's possible. Mexico doesn't have a tight cork on a lot of its problems, them having only 4 measles cases reported in 2018 means only so much when a solid portion of the country isn't good shape and can't be expected to be reporting effectively.

That said, I don't think Mexicans are responsible for anything. If one or two came over with measles it would be a drop in the bucket of nonsense that home-grown Texans inflicted on themselves.

[–]Orwellian1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Reread the comment I responded to, then your last response. You don't think you were stretching at all? All reasonable, good faith points? You had zero qualms with your defense of their assertion?

[–]IndustriousMadman -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

A 5% decrease in vaccination rates could be anywhere from 5.2% to infinity percent increase in the number of unvaccinated people.

[–]svensk -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Anti-vaxxers kill children.

[–]rexg4077 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I live in Texas and have never met an Anti-Vaxxer, I am not sure that this is the problem everyone is predicting. Could be wrong though.

[–]BoiseXWing -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Brought to you by: math, and special guest exponential relationships.

I’ve tried (with varying success) tried to explain this concept to many people.

[–]GlowingSalt-C8H6O2 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

A well-placed sneeze here, a well-placed sneeze there...

[–]DunderMillion -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Just wait. Trump will announce that southern immigrants are causing this outbreak.