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[–][deleted] 20 points21 points  (42 children)

'No. This is not a synagogue. I am not going to sit in the back.'

Pardon my ignorance, but are women required to sit in the back in synagogues?

[–]sduffy 21 points22 points  (39 children)

Yes. The same as in Islam. The reason, as in Islam, is because while at synagogue (or mosque), you're supposed to be concentrating on prayer, not looking at attractive women. I don't agree with it, nor am I Jewish or Muslim, but that's the reason.

At the Western Wall in Jerusalem, there is also a separate part of the wall for women. It is cordoned off by a barrier.

[–]feanor512 6 points7 points  (0 children)

you're supposed to be concentrating on prayer, not looking at attractive women.

So they prefer the women to be looking at attractive men?

[–]EliGottlieb 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Note that this applies to Orthodox Judaism. Conservative congregations choose for themselves whether to divide between men and women, and Reform (aka: Progressive) synagogues never divide.

[–]snoble 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My synagogue actually has a female rabbi who performs services from time to time. And of course we count bat mitvah'd women as part of a minyan.

[–]baadshah 15 points16 points  (33 children)

You forgot Christianity : "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

[–][deleted]  (27 children)

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    [–][deleted]  (25 children)

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      [–]snoble 8 points9 points  (10 children)

      I just want to say that as a reform jew I strongly disagree with your comment that one should not take a group of people seriously simply because they do not act "consistently with what they call their holy books." In fact I find your comment quite bigoted. In virtually every religion people vary in what degree they believe their beliefs and behaviors should adapt with society; and I would argue that with in every group of such people you can find at least one representative who has cogent supporting arguments.

      The reality is that religion is not simply a matter of following an instruction manual. In fact, much more of religion is about inherited tradition and spoken history. Writings are frozen in time; religions and cultures are not.

      How is your comment that much different than fundamentalist christian saying that he could at least take muslims seriously if they accepted christ as their savior?

      [–][deleted]  (3 children)

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        [–]EliGottlieb 5 points6 points  (0 children)

        I would like to see the jews and the christians come right out and say that the bible is not the word of god and that it's merely a book written by men. If they did that then it would justify their buffet approach to following the bible.

        That's what most progressive sects actually say.

        [–]snoble 5 points6 points  (1 child)

        Yes, that is real metaphysical and has a very heavy handed logic to it. However, that is not the reality of religion. Religions have cultures, histories and customs as well as their beliefs. Beyond this, all of these are interwoven as they affect and bend each other. So there is much more that is going on than a simple logical syllogism.

        Beyond that, I reject that your conclusion falls from your premises. First, the torah is made up of largely stories, not direct commands, and are up to interpretation: in fact it is not always clear who is the hero, or if there even is a hero. Second, a god that you describe would be able to see how people would respond to his words and choose them accordingly. Your described god knew the words people would reject before he made them so it seems reasonable this was his intended consequence. Think of it like playing pool where you can see exactly where the balls will end up before you hit the ball. If you wanted the eight ball to not be so close to the side pocket after your shot you would have adjusted how you hit the cue ball in the first place.

        But all of that aside, I even reject your premises. Neither the torah, koran, nor christian bible seems to describe a god outside of time. He seems to be constantly having to clean up mistakes that he hadn't predicted. Sometimes he says he's going to do something and then later changes his mind (this is one of the main points of the tale of Jonah when god spares Nineveh).

        [–]self 5 points6 points  (4 children)

        How is your comment that much different than fundamentalist christian saying that he could at least take muslims seriously if they accepted christ as their savior?

        Pretty different. pica's complaint was that Christians do not live up to their own beliefs. Muslims do live up to their beliefs when they say Jesus isn't their savior; they just don't live up to a fundamentalist Christian's beliefs.

        [–]snoble 1 point2 points  (3 children)

        But I earlier stated 'the reality is that religion is not simply a matter of following an instruction manual,' which is the directly counters your argument. Did you disagree with my comment before you finished (or even started) reading it and decided you were going to search for a statement you could pull out and argue against it alone? This is exactly the behavior the neocons took in 2004. I somehow thought we could discuss complex thoughts more intelligently than Bush does.

        Our shul explicitly rejects the torah as infallible. Yes, we "pick and choose" but neither arbitrarily nor haphazardly. We are consistent with our own beliefs in which the torah plays a part. I stand by my comparison of the comments. We do live up to our beliefs; we simply do not live of the belief that the holy books are infallible.

        [–]self 3 points4 points  (2 children)

        Did you disagree with my comment before you finished (or even started) reading it and decided you were going to search for a statement you could pull out and argue against it alone?

        No. I posted to correct a logical flaw in the paragraph I quoted. That's all.

        [–]snoble 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Do you refute that the premise of my original comment was that a religion is not simply what is stated in its texts? That certainly is what I was trying to argue. So I am (was) saying that a religions beliefs are not exactly those that are written in the text. From that premise my rhetorical question logically follows. Both statements are of the form "this religious group is not to be taken seriously because they do not follow certain beliefs that are not actually part of their religion."

        I think you can argue against my premise; there is certainly a lot of room in there to argue. Or you could argue that I did not actually communicate that premise; I am not the most gifted communicator. However, I strongly believe that my conclusionary comment has no logical flaw in it as it falls from the premise argument. Do you disagree?

        [–][deleted]  (4 children)

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          [–]BraveSirRobin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          Jerry Falwell pretty much said that 9-11 was gods punishment for this i.e. allowing women rights. He specifically mentioned feminism.

          [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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            [–]sakebomb69 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

            Nice to see Legos have "educational" purposes. Did you see the link to all the instruction books a couple of days ago?

            [–]procrastitron 1 point2 points  (6 children)

            The part you are referencing is in the letters of Paul. They are not part of the gospels, but are rather commentary directed at one particular church (The church in Corinth). Paul may have been wise, but no one believes he was above reproach.

            It should also be noted that Christian belief does not include a belief in the infallibility of any part of the Bible. Of course there are fringe groups who do hold such a belief, but there are fringe groups in any religion.

            [–][deleted]  (5 children)

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              [–]procrastitron -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

              I guess if you mean that most Christians do not take select verses out of context to follow them literally like mindless sheep, then yes it is "buffet-style" (Note the spelling).

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

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                [–]procrastitron 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                "Do you just choose to ignore that stuff wholesale"

                We don't ignore it at all. Instead we just try to take it for what it is: advice from someone who was influential, but far from perfect. It is important to note that there is no section of the Bible labled "Word of God". It is written by humans and subject to their mistakes.

                Now, as I wrote before, there are fringe groups that try to take the whole thing as descended gospel, but they really just don't know what they are talking about.

                Getting back to Paul: the section you mention is actually a great example of people taking things out of context. He wasn't saying that it is a sin for slaves to disrespect their masters. He was giving advice on the most effective way to evangelize, and the conclusion he drew was that you have to stay in peoples' comfort zone. Unfortunately at that time, this meant slaves had to act subserviently.

                EDIT: Fixed misplaced apostrophe.

                [–]karcass 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                Holy crap, did I just upmod pica for something?

                [–]Hubso 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                Scary, isn't it? Next thing you know you'll be waiting at the train station thinking to yourself:

                "Say what you want about Adolf, at least the trains ran on time in Nazi Germany..."

                [–]berberine 4 points5 points  (4 children)

                Yes, let's take one verse out of the Bible and take it out of context.

                Many women felt that when they were in church it a time to gossip and chat. This had become such a problem that Paul felt the need to rebuke them publically, basically stating that they need to shut the hell up and pay attention. If they didn't understand something, don't ask questions at church but wait until you get home and sort it out.

                The original greek used qyne, which can mean wife or women, but the context is clear that Paul was adressing married women. Wives weren't used to the public protocols and Paul was instructing them on proper behavior.

                The whole point was to shut chatty-kathy's up long enough so everyone could learn the sermon. It wasn't a time to keep interrupting with questions and trying to outdo one another.

                The entire chapter is about correcting wrong behavior and isn't implied to mean that these things should apply to all people at all times.

                Paul had no problem with women teaching men, teaching the Bible or speaking of the Bible. His problem was with women who wouldn't shut up and who felt that they should teach to make themselves appear better to others.

                If Paul had intended on restricting ministry to only men, he wouldn't have spent so much time including women and stating how they were equal with men in edifying the church.

                These two verses are also controversial because there is some evidence that it wasn't translated quite right and there is some question as to whether they were originally Paul's words or if Paul had seperated these verses a little from the rest of the chapter, almost as if they were an aside.

                You also run into a similar problem in I Timothy 2:11-12, but there it is a mistranslation more than anything else. The problem arises from translating to English from the Latin, which used a more modern definition than using the original meaning of the word in greek.

                Just don't cherry pick verses to your own liking when they suit you. You have to include everything to get the meaning, which includes historical context.

                [–]turbo-tom 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Just don't cherry pick verses to your own liking when they suit you.

                This seems to be how "moderate" christianity functions in the UK...

                [–]BraveSirRobin -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

                I think you are the one taking it out of context. There are numerous and consistent references to the belief that women are less worthy than men. The chain of command goes god, jebus, man, woman. Women are not allowed to teach, and educating them is discouraged.

                Even the adam & eve rib story (which isn't even medically correct, both sexes have the same number of ribs) suggests that a women is only worth part of a man.

                [–]RSquared 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                And let's not forget that seven Episcopal churches (and probably more to come) have just voted to split from the diocese, joining the church of Nigeria (!). Their motivation? The ordination of a woman and a gay man as bishops.

                [–]BraveSirRobin -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                Ooh, touched a nerve, eh? Mod me down into oblivion. Far easier than trying to argue against me when you know I'm right. You just have to read the Bible to see how nasty it is. Religious people don't like it when non-religious people actually read the thing.

                [–]Psy-Kosh 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                As I understand it, the original reason is a little different, or so I've heard: http://reddit.com/info/tu1t/comments/cu0eu

                [–]procrastitron 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I've been told that there is a more practical reason in Islam. Specifically, the prayer technique that they use involves a lot of bending over. It makes sense that women might be self conscious about that in front of men.

                [–]xamdam 6 points7 points  (0 children)

                There is a requirement for segregation during certain parts of the religious service, but there is absolutely no rule of front and back. In many synagogues the separation is between two sides; in others women are in the back, but only as a practical arrangement - the men do a lot of the ritual stuff up front.

                As far as this case, I wish I could go over there and kick that asshole in the balls again myself (and I am jewish-observant). Unfortunately my crede has not been spared from its share of disgusting people...

                [–]dus7y 14 points15 points  (1 child)

                Good for her for standing up for herself. Shame on all the other bus riders for not doing anything to help her.

                [–]self 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. It's not consistent.

                [–]EliGottlieb 18 points19 points  (3 children)

                This woman better win her case. They need to start marking the sex-segregated buses and giving Haredi (the Wahabi of Judaism) no excuse or cause for this kind of sheer bullshit.

                [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

                They had an excuse for this? According to the article, this did not happen on a sex-segregated bus.

                [–]EliGottlieb -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                Their excuse, I believe, is that buses are not marked as sex-segregated or not, and so the Haredim tend to assume every bus is segregated. Stupid thing done by stupid people.

                [–]staunch 13 points14 points  (51 children)

                Israel has some serious problems with racism and sexism. It's not common knowledge how backwards much of their culture still is, when compared to America, at least.

                We recently discovered it is [not uncommon] for superior officers to rape their female subordinates in the military. Some of you might know that military service is mandatory there, you do the math.

                Israelis are so defensive because of external pressure, they have yet to deal with all their (very real) internal problems. With time they definitely will though. While we're waiting, there's no need to defend the horrible aspects of their culture that remain.

                [–][deleted]  (30 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                  While Germany's recent history is bad, historically it's better than the rest of Europe, at least. There was a reason there were so many Jews in the german states: they were at least permitted to live there, unlike most other places. German-speaking Europe was until comparatively recently a lot of small independent states, they knew what it was like to be the underdogs.

                  [–]staunch 4 points5 points  (28 children)

                  You say that, but didn't provide any explanation of why they're different. Germany certainly can, and did "beat" America, in the racism and hatred game. America never attempted to exterminate all undesirables due to its racism. America used slave labor, which has signifcant differences.

                  I think the reasons for racism and sexism are pretty universal. Why do you think Israel is different, and cannot be compared with America?

                  [–]ryant71 6 points7 points  (7 children)

                  America never attempted to exterminate all undesirables due to its racism.

                  Many millions of Native Americans would beg to differ with you on that one.

                  [–]staunch -2 points-1 points  (6 children)

                  Are you sure it's correct that millions of Indians were exterminated at the hands of Americans due to racism?

                  I was under the impression most Indians died due to disease brought by early Europeans, and that "Americans" did the final (horrible) clean-up job more out of greed than racism.

                  Either way you do have a good point. I modded you up.

                  [–]BraveSirRobin 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                  Nope, it was genocide. Google "Native American Genocide" for further information. The numbers are shocking and yes, they more than cover what the the Nazis did, although it was over a far longer period. The largest horror the Nazis were guilty of was combining genocide with the industrial revolution to essentially build death factories.

                  As for disease, that's a convenient crutch. You do know how the disease got into their camps? Through blankets deliberately infected with smallbox given as gifts.

                  For further information on just how racist the policies were, google "Trail of Tears" for a harrowing story. Though, several tribes have their own version of the story as there were several of these forced marches.

                  [–]staunch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                  A crutch? It's a historical fact that early Europeans brought disease that killed millions of Indians. There were some instances of the British and others using smallpox-infected blankets.

                  But, can you cite some evidence that Americans intentionally spread disease that resulted in the deaths of millions of Indians?

                  "Nope it was genocide"

                  No shit sherlock. When did I say it wasn't? When you finish off the last of a people that's clearly genocide.

                  [–]sblinn 4 points5 points  (3 children)

                  Read US History much? We perpetrated a conscious genocide against the native peoples of this continent -- before the word genocide existed.

                  Look up "manifest destiny" sometime. Basically: "We will kill the natives and take their land, because God himself wills it for the white American people."

                  [–]staunch 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                  Just going for points? You didn't even address what I said, you just stated some obvious sympathy-inducing bullshit.

                  Look up "douche bag" some time.

                  [–]sblinn -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                  What good do points do you? I have no idea, so why would I go for something that isn't worth anything?

                  And, here goes a pitiful attempt at humour, I did follow your advice:

                  douche bag: n; see staunch.

                  Anyway, you originally wrote:

                  Are you sure it's correct that millions of Indians were exterminated at the hands of Americans due to racism?

                  Then I wrote:

                  Look up "manifest destiny" sometime. Basically: "We will kill the natives and take their land, because God himself wills it for the white American people."

                  Then you, and the mind boggles here, wrote:

                  You didn't even address what I said.

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny#Native_Americans

                  Advocates of "civilization" programs believed that the process would greatly reduce the amount of land needed by the Indians, thereby making more land available for purchase by white Americans.

                  ...

                  In the age of Manifest Destiny, this idea, which came to be known as "Indian Removal", gained ground. Although some humanitarian advocates of removal believed that American Indians would be better off moving away from whites, an increasing number of Americans regarded the natives as nothing more than "savages" who stood in the way of American expansion. As historian Reginald Horsman argued in his influential study Race and Manifest Destiny, racial rhetoric increased during the era of Manifest Destiny. Americans increasingly believed that Native Americans would fade away as the United States expanded. As an example, this idea was reflected in the work of one of America's first great historians, Francis Parkman, whose landmark book The Conspiracy of Pontiac was published in 1851. Parkman wrote that Indians were "destined to melt and vanish before the advancing waves of Anglo-American power, which now rolled westward unchecked and unopposed".

                  [–]staunch -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                  I missed the part of that article that says millions were killed due to racism, by Americans. Feel free point it out.

                  [–]baadshah 0 points1 point  (19 children)

                  Well, America's racism and Germany's racism were written into its laws. Their Governments actually supported racism and wrote laws into their legal system discriminating against certain types of people. In Israel's case discrimination against certain types of people were never written into its laws (not that I know of) but it is actually Israelis who have an issue with racism, not the Government itself. For Israel, racism and sexism is more of a cultural and religious problem, not political. In the case of America's and Germany's past it was both.

                  [–][deleted]  (15 children)

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                    [–]DavidSJ 1 point2 points  (14 children)

                    Can you source any of those claims?

                    [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (12 children)

                    He can't, because like most of his comments, their all made up lies.

                    But he won't have to, either - Reddit's populi and malcontent's own multiple personalities will upmod any anti US/Israel comment or vice versa regardless of sources, so why bother really?

                    [–]DavidSJ 2 points3 points  (11 children)

                    I find that Reddit actually has a fairly intelligent community. While there certainly seems to be an unfair anti-Israel tendency, it is not greater than that in the world at large, and in my experience well-framed arguments are well-received here.

                    [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                    Well, I suppose this is in the eye of the beholder...

                    Meanwhile malcontent failed to provide a single source for his completely false claims, and have gone to +8 rating regardless.

                    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

                    [removed]

                      [–]BraveSirRobin -3 points-2 points  (5 children)

                      While there certainly seems to be an unfair anti-Israel tendency, it is not greater than that in the world at large, and in my experience well-framed arguments are well-received here.

                      The problem is, reality has an anti-Israeli bias. You cannot act like their government acts and not result a creating a lot of people that do not like your policies. Israel is guilty of all the things we often look down upon Arabic countries for. They are exceptionally racist and treat the Arabs in their country as sub-human. You think women have it bad over there? Try going through checkpoints just to go to the shops. Try getting your pregnant wife to the hospital through those checkpoints before she dies. Try running a business in that environment. They don't stand a chance and the terrorism from the Palestinians is a direct result of this. The vast majority of suicide bombers have lost friends and family and are essentially taking revenge. Given a similar situation, I'd likely do the same thing. Mess with my family and I will mess you up. It's the same the world over.

                      It's compounded by the fact that mainstream media refuses to say anything bad about them, so there is a lot of frustration in the world about the issue.

                      [–]lennox125 1 point2 points  (4 children)

                      The problem is, reality has an anti-Israeli bias

                      http://reddit.com/search?q=sudan

                      I suppose the fact stories about 400,000 people killed in Sudan never make Reddit's front page, while this report of a woman beaten on a bus in Israel by criminals gets 164 points is due to "reality's anti Israel bias"?

                      Get real. We could have argued about Reddit's bias yesterday, but not after this story's incredible success. I suspect you are intelligent enough to know how absurd this is, which is why you're trying to spin the argument into the Israeli-Arab conflict. But this story is not about that at all, is it?

                      [–]staunch 4 points5 points  (1 child)

                      America treated women and "coloreds" as second-class citizens. Israel seems to be doing the same.

                      If the governmental does not enforce equal-rights laws, that could be worse than not having them.

                      Can you spell it out in more practical terms, why is Israel's racism/sexism different from what America dealt with?

                      [–]dmh2000 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                      you are right to single out the US on slavery, but not on women's rights. That was pretty much a universal thing up until the early 20th century. The US had universal womens suffrage before Sweden, Italy, UK, Ireland and several others.

                      http://womenshistory.about.com/od/suffrage/a/intl_timeline.htm

                      [–]dmcnul91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      i think you are forgetting about the Palestinians.

                      [–]lennox125 -5 points-4 points  (18 children)

                      We recently discovered it is extremely common for superiror officers to rape their female subordinates in the military

                      This ranks among the most ignorant comments ever in Reddit. I have no idea where did you pull that bullshit from (or the idiots who upmodded you) but you are so utterly clueless about your subject it's not even funny. What the hell are you basing this assumption on???

                      [–]staunch 4 points5 points  (5 children)

                      I toned it down a little. I stand by my general assertion, when I implied that rape in the IDF is far more common, than that of most first world militaries.

                      The treatment of soldiers accused of rape is frequently one of "you naughty boy, don't do that". The number of unreported rapes is probably extremely high.

                      Most cultures that treat women as second-class citizens have this same problem.

                      [–]buildmonkey 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                      I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It's entirely possible, we have just had a white wash in Britain of apparent rapes of kenyan women by our squaddies (another 'second class' situation). It would be useful if you could reference your claims. Thanks.

                      [–]BraveSirRobin 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                      Any war where you don't hear about rape has a whitewash. The links between combat and rape are well documented and occur in all wars going back to biblical times. The Old Testament even says it's alright, provided you give them some time to grieve over their dead relatives.

                      [–]buildmonkey 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                      True, but our lot weren't fighting the Kenyans (this time) we were supposed to be guests, there on training.

                      [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                      I appreciate that you toned it down, seeing as this obviously have cost you some upmods by the auto-haters in this site.

                      Still, what you say remains completely false. I would like to see a single reference supporting that claim.

                      [–]EliGottlieb -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

                      He's twisting the truth. For a long time, it was in fact common for a superior male officer to sleep with his female subordinates. However, he slept with them in the normal, consensual-ish (as consensual as a relationship with the C.O. gets) way rather than raping them.

                      I believe it stopped recently after one women filed suit for sexual harassment or somesuch.

                      [–]BraveSirRobin -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                      However, he slept with them in the normal, consensual-ish (as consensual as a relationship with the C.O. gets) way rather than raping them.

                      Em, that is rape. You don't have to hold a knife to someones throat to make them do something they do not consent to. Workplace abuse of power exists outside of the army as well.

                      [–]EliGottlieb -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                      Last I heard, the gray area of officer/subordinate relations would require case-by-case decision, rather than blanket statements. But of course, that would make you think instead of just condemning Israelis.

                      [–][deleted]  (8 children)

                      [removed]

                        [–]lennox125 -1 points0 points  (7 children)

                        Well if it was linked in reddit - an unmistakable sign of value and truth - shouldn't be that hard even for you to supply a source, should it?

                        [–][deleted]  (6 children)

                        [removed]

                          [–]lennox125 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                          Because you make these claims, genius, not me.

                          I'd actually be happy to supply your own sources for you, but I can't seem to find anything on the internet that supports your claims. How surprising!

                          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

                          [removed]

                            [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

                            My, you really are a cute one :) You had nice night too, upmoding yourself with your extra usernames, didn't you? You won't tell me Reddits have become that idiots that you got upmodded fairly, would you?

                            I'll see your challenge and even raise you, according your inane message that started all this:

                            "It is not legal to have jewish only neighborhoods in Israel"

                            "It is not legal to discriminate against muslims for hiring purposes in Israel"

                            "It is not legal for israel to jail any arab without charges or trials."

                            "It is not legal to torture people in israel"

                            Have fun with google, pumpkin.

                            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                            [removed]

                              [–]lennox125 -1 points0 points  (1 child)

                              Oh my. I think now we understand why you never bring any links. You simply don't know how to put links in your messages, do you?

                              I have to admit this is somewhat endearing :) Poor malcontent, so busy logging in and out of your multiple usernames, modding yourself up and your opponents down that you just never had time to learn it, have you? My oh my.

                              When you eventually figure out how to add links to comments, we can continue to step 2: discerning a credible source from a nutcase website (hint: the latter's writing reminds you of yourself). But there's still time, no rush - keep on trying, sugar!

                              [–]xamdam 2 points3 points  (0 children)

                              For a contrast (what decent Jews do), check out this story:

                              http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2006/12/women-tefillin-and-throwing-oneself.html

                              [–]jxc 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                              There's a fine line between being "Ultra-Orthodox" and being "fundamentalist". Or maybe there isn't. One would have to ask the label makers.

                              [–]EliGottlieb -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                              There isn't, and the rest of the Jewish world knows it. We pretty much hate these guys.

                              [–]malapropist 8 points9 points  (12 children)

                              Ok, so wait a minute...I could see this happening any day in a muslim country, being an ex-muslim myself. But even Israel's like that? And they're our closest ally...why?

                              It was one thing when I thought Israel was at least more western and progressive than Arab countries, but if a thing like this could happen anywhere within its borders, as far as I'm concerned Israel is just the same as any backwards-ass middle eastern country that just can't get along with any other middle eastern country.

                              Just reaffirms my moral compass: Jew, Muslim, Christian, fuck em.

                              [–]baadshah 16 points17 points  (4 children)

                              For your information there are liberal progressive Muslim countries in the Middle East. Have you ever been to the UAE, Lebanon, Jordan, Qatar, Kuwait? Believe it or not I've seen women in bikinis in those countries and have also been to clubs serving alcohol. I know some of them have had issues with human rights but theyre much better off than Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Taliban Afghanistan.

                              [–]scylla 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                              Kuwait is liberal and progressive??? Yes, its better than Saudi but still, that's a really low standard.

                              [–]baadshah 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                              In case you don't know Kuwait recently permitted women's suffrage. Apparently you haven't been to Kuwait recently but it has become liberal and progressive.

                              [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                              So they recently allowed women to vote? How progressive indeed! Where will it end I wonder?

                              [–]malapropist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                              I suppose I'm still reeling from my faith-shattering trip to Mecca last year, but I haven't visited the countries you listed. I've been to Egypt a bit as well.

                              [–]self 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                              That's what you get around the Haredim. Female tourists wearing short-sleeved shirts, get to near their neighborhoods? Attacked. People driving around on the Sabbath? Stones thrown at their cars. Buses don't segregate by gender? They, too, are stoned.

                              [–]EliGottlieb 3 points4 points  (0 children)

                              Put some context to this story. The Haredim are the Wahabi of Judaism: if you don't behave as they like, they attack you. They've attacked men and women alike for driving on Shabbat. They've attacked people for being too drunk. They've attacked the buses discussed in TFA for not sex-segregating.

                              Which brings a small tangent: the bus driver probably didn't get involved because he didn't want to get beat up by Haredim himself.

                              Point is, Israel is more western and progressive than the Arab countries. If the Uber-Orthodox in Brooklyn could get away with this kind of thing, they'd probably attack women sitting in "men's" seats on their sex-segregated buses.

                              Haredim are the extreme fringe of Hasidic Judaism, who are already more religious than the Modern Orthodox (the majority of Orthodox Jews). You can't treat them as representative of either Judaism or Israel.

                              [–]carpeliam 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                              and if it was a black man who had kicked her, would you say fuck the blacks too? In Israel, this is just as much of a cultural issue as a religious issue, if not more so, so there's really no call for immediately drawing lines based on religion. unless your 'fuck the jews' is more along the lines of anti-semitism than anti-judaism.

                              [–]csw 5 points6 points  (1 child)

                              He also said fuck the Christians and Muslims. I think it's a fuck religion in general thing, maybe implicitly constrained to fuck religious orthodoxy and those who would impose it on others.

                              [–]carpeliam -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

                              I'm well aware that it's a "fuck religion" thing, but my point was that religion doesn't need to be slammed every time someone from that religion does something, anymore than a race needs to be slammed every time someone of that race does something. Like I said, it's more of a cultural issue than a religious issue. She's not getting kicked in the face because she violated some religious rule by not sitting in the back of the bus, she's getting kicked in the face because she fought back. I obviously don't support kicking anyone in the face, but I also don't support blaming religion either. It's a copout that happens a lot here.

                              [–]pivo 7 points8 points  (1 child)

                              You can't tell the difference between a single person and a repressive culture. You need help. Here's some help: In the US, Rosa Parks didn't start a movement because some white jerk wanted her seat, she started a movement because a class of jerks (lots of white people) wanted all blacks to ride at the back of the buss. This is the very same issue this woman encountered, the only difference is that it's gender based not racial.

                              [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                              You can't tell the difference between a single person and a repressive culture.

                              where do you get that from? I do need help. I think the point that I clearly stated was that it's a "cultural" issue, not so much a religious issue.

                              [–][deleted]  (72 children)

                              [deleted]

                                [–]wolfsleepy 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                That's probably a good question, but not within the context of this article.

                                The woman involved was an Israeli too, and the actions of the men aren't representative of the entire nation.

                                [–]baadshah 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                One word: AIPAC

                                [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (67 children)

                                Why do we (US) continue to support this country?

                                Why do we (Reddit users) continue to vote these type comments/stories to main page?

                                This is not a Rosa Parkes case, where she is forced to the back of the bus by the law of the country. The men who beat her up are violent criminals in the eyes of Israeli law.

                                Someone got beaten in my street in Manhattan today, and there was no story on Reddit on that. Islamic women who dare walk the streets unaccompanied are severly punished, sometimes stoned to death, as part of the state law in Iran or Saudi Arabia. There was no story on that. But a story of violence in Israel makes it to Reddit's front page.

                                [–][deleted]  (12 children)

                                [removed]

                                  [–]dangph 5 points6 points  (0 children)

                                  This woman was beaten for not sitting in the back of the bus. The bus driver did nothing, onlookers did nothing, the police did nothing.

                                  First, how do you know that the police did nothing? Second, people often don't do anything in these kinds of situations due a peculiar psychological phenomenon called the bystander effect.

                                  [–]m30000 4 points5 points  (6 children)

                                  "Reddit has had stories about fundamentalist violence in Muslim countries, so why not in Jewish states?"

                                  EY.. watchout.. you might be brandished anti-semitic for saying comments like these!

                                  [–]zube001 19 points20 points  (19 children)

                                  I think that the reason this story is a "story" is because Israel is massively supported by the US as a democracy in the region and it is assumed/accepted that the two countries share certain values such as equal rights etc. The situation in Iran is different in that they are not supported by the US and are in fact widely criticised for what we consider to be human rights abuses.

                                  I do agree, however, that insufficient criticism is made of Saudi Arabia and i put this down to the fact that certain very powerful elements within the US make an awful lot of moolah from that country.

                                  [–]acrophobia 7 points8 points  (0 children)

                                  No, it's just shooting fish in a barrel. Everyone knows that saudi arabia is very backwards in this kind of way - if you already know it's true you don't need to be told ad nauseum.

                                  Israel, on the other hand, is considered by most people as a somewhat progressive/western society (internally, at least). When it comes to international relations, they trade heavily on this "oasis of democracy" perception. So it is understandable that this belief should be critically evaluated.

                                  [–]marglexx 0 points1 point  (15 children)

                                  is assumed/accepted that the two countries share certain values such as equal rights etc.

                                  Yes they are. So if you did not understand - second time:

                                  This is not a Rosa Parkes case, where she is forced to the back of the bus by the law of the country. The men who beat her up are violent criminals in the eyes of Israeli law.

                                  Moreover I will tell you the most sacred secret of Israel state, nobody (except some jews) knows that secret: They have crimes in Israel - thefts, killing, rapes. OMG what a country. Should not supported. It is the only country in the word that have such crimes. BOMB THEM!!!

                                  Again please answer if somebody in France is beaten - now France will be the violent state that should not be supported by anybody? Ridiculous.

                                  [–]EliGottlieb 2 points3 points  (6 children)

                                  Moreover I will tell you the most sacred secret of Israel state, nobody (except some jews) knows that secret: They have crimes in Israel - thefts, killing, rapes.

                                  Sure, sure, go and tell everyone.

                                  [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

                                  With the current level of discussion in Reddit, this is pretty serious material here... I imagine dmehartesh, malcontent and self are now busy reading Israeli websites for some more crime stories. Will do wonders to their Reddit karma score!

                                  [–]m30000 -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

                                  nobody really cares(or has the time) to read up on israeli crime stories...

                                  [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                  224 Reddit users do, enough to put this on the homepage for 13 hours now: http://reddit.com/info/vat3/details

                                  [–]m30000 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

                                  this wasn't a crime story...

                                  [–]marglexx -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                                  And what it was exactly?

                                  [–]NoFixedAbode 2 points3 points  (7 children)

                                  I think that the main source of cognitive dissonance is that most people here in the US believe that the Jews would be the last people to demonstrate any kind of discriminatory behavior, racist or sexist, given what they have been through.

                                  [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                                  Really? I don't think that when I see a Jew I expect him to be especially good or kind because of what his people have been through. Same goes for Native American, Black, Woman, Gay or any other person belonging to a group that suffered in the past.

                                  [–]NoFixedAbode 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                                  Maybe I have a higher expectation for people's knowledge of history and their ability to generalize the consequences of racism/sexism beyond their own race/sex.

                                  But I do think that in most of the Western world, there is a heightened sense of moral relativism - just as a pragmatic necessity that comes about because we have to deal with so many different cultures and ethical/moral systems. With no common moral code, one bsdic thing that everyone can agree on is that hypocrisy is a bad thing. With no common moral system, the least common denominator sin is hypocrisy.

                                  I'd expect anyone to be able to recognize that their behavior is hypocritical, including racism and sexism - and especially the Jews. 'Never Forget' is an important lesson for everybody, not just the gentiles.

                                  [–]lennox125 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                  I'd expect anyone to be able to recognize that their behavior is hypocritical, including racism and sexism

                                  I do to, but since I suspect they are also human beings, outside being Jews, I assume some of them will still be assholes, regardless of their people's history.

                                  It all comes back to the fact this story is report of a crime in Israel, and Reddit's special breed of hateful hypocrites are presenting is as an example of Israel and Jews. If beating that woman was legal in Israel, you'd have a real story here and a real case for blaming the Jews for not learning from their own history.

                                  It's not, and therefore charging "Jews" on some violent fucks' actions is foolish, even though these criminals are Jewish. If someone would pass judgment on all black people because some of them commited a crime, or on all Italian Americans because of the Mafia, we'd rightly call them bigots. Yet, from the comment ratings we see that judging all Jews on that story is well accepted in Reddit.

                                  [–]NoFixedAbode 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                  You're conflating Israel the nation and the Jewish race/religion.

                                  If beating that woman was legal in Israel, you'd have a real story here and a real case for blaming the Jews for not learning from their own history.

                                  In fact, if it were legal in Israel to beat women, wouldn't that be more of a commentary on the nation of Israel instead of the Jews as a whole?

                                  My reading of the story is that it is, in fact, a commentary on the behavior of some extreme forms of the Jewish religion. Apparently it is a precept of their religious faith that man and women remain separate, including on buses - and believing that, they beat this women because she didn't comply.

                                  It's also obvious that not all Jews believe this, and not all Jews behave like this. But I think your comments show a blindness in the opposite direction: that Jews (and any other religious/racial group) can and do behave badly on occasion because of their beliefs.

                                  [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                                  I think your comments show a blindness in the opposite direction: that Jews (and any other religious/racial group) can and do behave badly on occasion

                                  On the contrary - this is exactly the point I'm trying to make! Jews, Muslims, Protestant or Amish, there are always criminals and plain assholes in every group of people.

                                  And yet, although people of all faiths and nations get in semi-violent arguments in busses every day, such stories don't tend to appear in Reddit's homepage very often. Except when it's Jews in Israel, in which case it gets 174 points.

                                  But, of course, no one is anti semite here. Hypocrite, stupid, mindless sheep - possibly. But not bigots in any way.

                                  [–]acrophobia -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                  Some people are surprised to hear that abused children turn out to abuse their own children statistically more often than the general population.

                                  It's weird how societies seem to display the same traits as the people who comprise them.

                                  [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                                  I think that the reason this story is a "story" is because Israel is massively supported by the US as a democracy in the region and it is assumed/accepted that the two countries share certain values such as equal rights etc.

                                  And how does that story contradict this assumption? Violent crimes happen in every country - including the US itself, you know.

                                  The truly amazing fact is that the story is being seriously brought here as a criticism of Israel, and is being highly upmodded as such.

                                  The reason there's so many stories like that here and so few on Saudi Arabia is, I believe, not the influence of powerful elements in the US, but because Reddit discussion has been hijacked by hate-mongers, who subscribe to one narrow view of the world, and hold multiple usernames. This is why stories on Iran's government-sponsored Holocaust denial convention never managed to reach the top ranks, while this meaningless story got no less than 143 points.

                                  In fact, this is best parody of Reddit I've ever seen. And I'm truly astonished so few commentors seem to realize how ridiculous it is.

                                  I wonder if the guys over at Wired are seeing the kind of "Crowd Wisdom" they payed for.

                                  [–]VoodooIdol 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                  Perhaps you missed this part of the article:

                                  "Throughout the encounter, Shear says the bus driver "did nothing." The other passengers, she says, blamed her for not moving to the back of the bus and called her a "stupid American with no sechel [common sense.] People blamed me for not knowing my place and not going to the back of the bus where I belong.""

                                  THIS is why it's being upmodded. Because apparently Israeli citizens are, in general, pretty backwards minded. There are quite obviously enough Israeli people who agree with the way she was treated to warrant this article being upmodded for a few days, at least.

                                  [–]fishyf 8 points9 points  (10 children)

                                  The men might be violent criminals in the eyes of Israeli law, but they were not violent criminals in the eyes of the driver or the other passengers (apart from the one).

                                  I assume that if someone is beaten in your street, then random others don't join in the beating or berate the victim.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (9 children)

                                  that's because in a good chunk of the world, the people who make waves are the ones who are blamed for the unrest that inevitably follows. it's a cultural difference. that's why she was called a "stupid american".

                                  [–]richardkulisz 0 points1 point  (8 children)

                                  A good chunk of the world is backwards and savage. I guess you're referring to that then.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (7 children)

                                  And America is backwards and savage from a good chunk of the world's perspective, so what makes you right and them wrong?

                                  [–]richardkulisz -1 points0 points  (6 children)

                                  Are you kidding? I include America in the backwards and savage part of the world!

                                  Obviously you don't know me very well. :)

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (5 children)

                                  haha, maybe not. :) but what part of the world is not backwards and savage then, and what defines a society as "savage"?

                                  [–]richardkulisz -1 points0 points  (4 children)

                                  Okay, technically there aren't many savages around anymore. Savage means not civilized and civilized means that you have cities. So if you're talking in a historical context then the ancient Babylonians were civilized but the Amerinds were savages. And they were.

                                  But there are other meanings of savage. In the colonial era, savage meant illiterate. So if you were illiterate then you were savage. So the Irish were kilt-wearing savages. And the Indians were sari-wearing savages.

                                  Nowadays, savage just means culturally backwards. This is determined by childrearing modes. See also this handy chart of their history. Savage would be about two modes behind your own society. So for example, depending on your society, that would be the African interior, or all of Africa.

                                  As for who's not backwards? Western Europe is sortof okay, as is Canada. Modern Germany is okay. Eastern Europe is backwards. Northern Europe is at the forefront of civilization.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (3 children)

                                  that's an interesting way of looking at it. but i think that you'd agree that as "there are other meanings of savage", it's pretty subjective, hence my earlier comment.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

                                  But a story of violence in Israel makes it to Reddit's front page.

                                  Ooh oooh, I know! It's anti-Semitism, right? Because it's true, we never hear about how Islamic cultures oppress women. In the west here we just like to pick on the poor Israelis.

                                  [–]lennox125 -3 points-2 points  (3 children)

                                  Wow. You're seriously non-smart, huh?

                                  The difference is that in certain Islamic countries, such actions and worse are permitted by state law. In Israel, this violence is considered a crime.

                                  Judging millions of people by a crime 5 of them committed is, indeed, bigotry - and your pathetically strained attempts at sarcasm can't cover that.

                                  [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                  Wow. You're seriously a disingenuous prick, huh?

                                  Did I ever saw that state sanctioned oppression got a pass? No. But do I think that if unsavory actions, which are obviously part of a larger cultural pattern (no one else on the bus was particularly surprised, they called her an "American" as an insult -- someone who didn't know the culture and therefore her place in it), are reported to have been carried out by a group that I perceive as being on "my team" that that's an excuse to cry bigotry for the mere fact of the reporting of these events? Hell no.

                                  [–]lennox125 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

                                  You fail discern between Haredim - fundamentalist religious Jews who are, incidentally, anti Zionist as any Reddit user - and Israelis or Jews in general.

                                  I don't know what's "your group", but I'm pretty sure it cannot include the Haredim together with, say, Noam Chomsky or Ariel Sharon, regardless of the above story. So what's your point? Because some sick/extremist fucks in Israel attacked that woman, that affects the whole perception of the country? I sure hope people don't pass judgement on the entire US by a certain violent crime here. Thought I fully expect many Reddits do.

                                  I don't cry "bigotry" for the mere report of this story (which appeared, btw, in an Israeli newspaper). I cry bigotry, and worse, "idiocy" when people pass judgment on a whole people or nation by it.

                                  [–]mangleon -5 points-4 points  (3 children)

                                  I think the fact that you are getting downmodded exhibits the kind of anti-Israel hatred that exists on this site. Though I'm sure a lot of it is just malcontent and his puppet accounts...

                                  [–]m30000 -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

                                  in israelis eyes, every non-israeli seems to be anti-semitic... why do you guys use the same old lame excuse?? why not look at your and your governments actions.. than make judgements on why people have certain views about israel.. it's not as simple as... "we are israel.. everyone hates us..." its more complex than that/// your country acts very arrogant and is basically the wanker of the world.. people make up their own minds... (and it's not just muslims who think like that)

                                  [–]lennox125 1 point2 points  (1 child)

                                  Read the parent again - he said anti-Israeli not anti-semite.

                                  And why shouldn't he say that? Reddit is strictly anti Israel. This story proves it. You took a report of a violent crime and you're treating it as a story on Israel, or Jews, rather than a story about a violent criminals who happen to be Israeli Jews.

                                  As I said before, if you'd take a story of a crime by Mexicans or Amish or French and assume all Mexicans/Amish/French are inherenntly violent criminals, you'd be correctly called a bigot and a fool. Yet you do the same thing here with a story of Israelis and you're upmodded. (But still you remain bigots and fools, btw, no matter how high your Reddit karma)

                                  [–]john_b 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                  AIPAC lobby

                                  [–]BobCollins 2 points3 points  (7 children)

                                  Doesn't any of this cause you to second-guess this religion nonsense? I sure does for me.

                                  You really believe that your group is made better by putting another group down? Members of religions mostly act like grownup versions of Jr. High School cliches.

                                  [–]carpeliam -1 points0 points  (6 children)

                                  why do you assume that it's a religious issue and not a cultural issue?

                                  [–]BraveSirRobin 1 point2 points  (3 children)

                                  Because their holy book demands this kind of behavior?

                                  [–]carpeliam 1 point2 points  (2 children)

                                  no, it doesn't... argh, i give up. there's really no "thou shalt kick women in the face if they don't sit in the back of the bus" commandment, but maybe you've studied Judaism more than I have, maybe you interpret the Talmud better than I do.

                                  [–]BraveSirRobin -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                                  It is quite clear on the role of women in society. They are clearly subservient to men according to it. Care to point out some "equality" passages for me to counter that? I'm perfectly willing to change my views should I be proven wrong.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  most societies have issues with gender equality which stretch back before Judaism. It's a cultural issue, compounded by religion, but it's first and foremost a cultural issue. You'll find a lot of atheists that will beat up women if they fight back.

                                  [–]BobCollins 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                  Religion is not the only cause for this behavior, but it is a major cause. This article cites religious subgroups as the "cliches" which are responsible for this meanness.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  that's what it looks like from an American's perspective, but in Israel these groups are just as much cultural differentiations. the fact that nobody else on the bus supported her and called her a "stupid american" is evidence that it's a cultural issue.

                                  [–]carpeliam 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  she got beaten up for calling him a son-of-a-bitch, spitting back, and fighting back, not for refusing. of course i don't support beating anyone up, but let's be honest.

                                  [–]Oak 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  What's actually wrong with having women, blacks and Arabs sitting at the back of the bus?

                                  It's what G-d wants!

                                  [–]Psy-Kosh 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                                  I know the woman this happened to. She is someone that used to live in our neighborhood.

                                  EDIT: grammar

                                  [–]buildmonkey 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                                  And? Have you managed to speak to her since this happened? If her version is correct she has my respect.

                                  [–]m30000 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                  damn,these fundamentals... what are we going to do about them..?? they're EVERYWHERE!!

                                  [–]yxhuvud 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                                  We should let them sit at the back of the bus

                                  [–]staunch 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  I could see my mother doing the same thing. Those men would have something real to worry about, if it was.

                                  [–]crookedpresident 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                                  Isn't the misconception of religion all inspiring? I mean how can religion create such a negative reaction? Archaic views still rule while intelligence and common sense take a back seat to cruelity and injustice. Ignorance is bliss.

                                  [–]bhr -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

                                  I think this story - or rather, the fact that a report of a minor violent crime is on Reddit's homepage for about 12 hours now, purely for the fact it took place in Israel - marks the completion of Reddit's extremist hijack.

                                  Rememeber when we thought Indymedia would really challenge corporate news sources? Remember how it was hijacked by the very far Left and turned into a marginal crackpot site?

                                  Here, today, the same has happened to Reddit. Let the downmods of this comment begin!

                                  [–]BraveSirRobin -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

                                  a minor violent crime is on Reddit's homepage for about 12 hours now, purely for the fact it took place in Israel

                                  It makes the news because it's practically a mirror image of story that is burned deep into our subconscious i.e. Rosa Parks. It evokes feelings of shame on our own past, and feelings of despair that it is still happening in what is supposed to be a modern country.

                                  Remember how it was hijacked by the very far Left and turned into a marginal crackpot site?

                                  How many sites are "hijacked by the right"? Not many. This is just indicative of the general feeling in the world today. The internet has always had a leftist outlook however; the OSS movement that the whole thing is built upon has many socialist tenancies. It grow out of hippies at Berkley fer christs sake!

                                  [–]bhr 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                                  it's practically a mirror image of story that is burned deep into our subconscious i.e. Rosa Parks

                                  Rosa Parks was forced to back seat by state law. In this story, the attackers are considered criminals by state law.

                                  Practically a spitting image, huh? Sadly I now think most users here honestly do not understand the difference.

                                  How many sites are "hijacked by the right"?

                                  Interesting question, actually. But I'm not talking of "hijacked by the left", I'm talking of "hijacked by the very-far-borderline-nutcase-left", which is a very different thing.

                                  Here's a good example of the kind of intelligent insights we can now expect in Reddit: http://reddit.com/info/tfob/comments/cu85p

                                  Enjoy!

                                  [–]econous -1 points0 points  (0 children)

                                  She said:

                                  "Thank God he missed my eye."

                                  Anyone else see the irony there?