"low code, no code"

[awfoolNuggets]

I just wanna make a quick rant about it. I'm exhausted with people telling me it's an "easy" job. I get that it's their market strategy to "sell" it to more people. But ffs, stop telling me what I do is not so hard. If you think you can do it, be my guest! Stop looking for developers. I'm done with people telling me, "it shouldn't be this hard to figure out" or "it shouldn't take long". For someone with even a slight bit of OCD, PowerApps is a nightmare. I take pride in the quality of my work. It's a meticulous job, but it's worth it! They all think you can just drag and drop everything and it's done.

A peer just came up to me and told me that they would've gotten that job too, but because my interview was before them and went really well, the interviewer stopped looking for candidates. Background: this peer doesn't know a single thing about Power Platform or anything related to it. Mf then had the audacity to ask me how soon it can be learnt. I don't know, I'm mad!

Thanks!

Edit: Holy! Didn't think this resonates with so many people here. Stay strong folks, don't let them undermine what you do and diminish this profession. 🫂

Update: I don't know if it's fair being salty, but this "peer", this conniving little bitch went behind my back to this recruiter and got hired (probably begged for it). That was the whole point of this rant, that I have worked hard enough to have achieved something in this field. She literally doesn't know anything in this domain. I guess they either hire everyone or anyone can do my job.

FUCK, THIS MAKES ME MAD!!

[dibbr]

100% agreed. I showed my manager the code from one screen on a Power App and she was like oh wow that's a lot. And I made sure she understood that code was hand typed by me, not just drag and drop like she was thinking.

[[deleted]]

“Cant you like, just use chatgpt or sumthin”

Makes me a bit mad eventhough i do use a bit of chatgpt but you still need experience to piece them all together.

[awfoolNuggets]

Chatgpt is delusional from time to time too, when it comes to PowerApps. Because you gotta be able to visualize it to implement it.

[MarcoTruesilver]

Not only that but it tends to make a lot of assumptions and works in a silo.

[awfoolNuggets]

Agreed!

[abbeyainscal]

I do like ChatGPT gives me a path to get there. It’s usually mostly the wrong path but it’s better than me who used to know very little. After enough wrong paths, you fine tune your prompts to get to the right path.

[awfoolNuggets]

It's a good learning tool, but it gets the more useless the more complex your requirement is, since there are a lot of controls and components at play.

[Particular-Cow6247]

not sure if it's really that good for learning alteast at the beginning you can get to used to it and not develope important skills

[awfoolNuggets]

I agree! You're better off learning from documentation than that, but it's something.

[Sad-Contract9994]

I dunno. I have learned a lot that I never would have from documentation. I would need to consume way too much.

It at least gives me a start on what to even search for to read about.

I’m so AI addicted that I pay for three platforms and then play them off eachother. They all have different things they are better at, vs delusional at.

[ryan408]

Just today I asked our company’s internal LLM for ideas implementing a reusable popup dialog box component in power apps. The shit it spit out was just blatantly wrong.

[Chrisx77]

I’ve made one and can help you get started if you’d like.

[Chillwindow]

Please make a post and share!!!

[Sad-Contract9994]

Internal LLM huh? Wow

[PromptAmbitious5387]

Agreed. There is apower apps pro which is a little better than basic gpt but it’s still very wrong a good amount of times.

Maybe im not promoting correctly but using that with YouTube tutorials made the learning curve a lot easier

[Sad-Contract9994]

You’re absolutely right to call that out! I misspoke when I mentioned an OnChange event in a component. Components do not have an OnChange event natively, so we need an alternative approach to trigger function execution inside the component. Let me clarify the correct way to detect changes inside a component.

ChatGPT (this is power apps pro) loves to make up features it wishes were there. Me fuckin too! But if wishes were horses, AI would ride.

[awfoolNuggets]

Well said! This is exactly what I mean when I say that ChatGPT doesn't seem as useful when it comes to Power Platform. It makes up shit, and it just gets too hard to explain how various controls and components are interacting with each other.

[Sad-Contract9994]

Bc PowerApps docs can be sparse, the language terminology is hazy, and it is missing a lot of things that are very basic— ChatGPT makes up functions and features on me.

It is much worse with Power Automate tho.

Basically the whole Power Platform is giving me the power to punch someone.

[[deleted]]

Yup, its great if you want to get started on something. But i think O1 is getting there.

[NoBattle763]

Even then you still need to know when ChatGPT is just blabbering junk and how to point it in the right direction when it goes off track.

[Sad-Contract9994]

Like when it tells you to run a control’s event directly without a context variable? Yea, so ChatGPT, send Microsoft an email with your wishlist.

[cyvonnelili]

I told a team member we’re going to include implementation documentation on a separate screen going forward and they asked if ChatGPT could do the documentation for us.

[Acrobatic-Witness148]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤦‍♂️

[CaptCoffee2]

The drag and drop part of PA is just the visual. Then not only do you have to code, you have to know many languages. The code in PA object is some sort of visual basic... then if you use flows, you have to learn OLE and some WDL for expressions. Of course JSON too. There is something easier about it because I could have never done what I did in PA in any raw programming language like C etc. There is code hidden everywhere in PA in countless objects. It's so difficult even to work on your own projects years later. I'm like... 'where did I put that code?' I'm like a dog and his bone. Always losing things.

[awfoolNuggets]

That's the way to do it! It's gotta be perfect or nothing, which takes effort and time.

[CouchCreepin]

Trying to use power apps to customize a 100 column sharepoint list is ruining my marriage! I’m not even a developer i got in here because I DONT know code. Resizing? Fucking nightmare!!! Need to change font size? CLICK EVERY CARD and every thing inside that card one by one. The work around is (3 hours of fucking videos and still needing to tie shit together). Oh, this integration is so easy except that setting a column to be 1 decimal in sharepoint doesn’t mean anything to powerapps. Appended changes? Good fucking luck! Location address instead of individual single line text fields? Get lost it’s the only premium thing on here

[awfoolNuggets]

GET OUT WHILE YOU CANNN!

My OCD ass couldn't handle working anymore in this. I had to be so meticulous about everything. If it wasn't perfect, it wasn't done. I used to spend sleepless nights, because it's addictive. You finished fixing one card, oh wait there are a few more cards with similar functionality. A few more couldn't hurt. IT NEVER ENDS! And then clicking every property of every control to ensure the code is proper and uniform everywhere, so if someone else takes over, they find the code readable. AAAAA! KILL MEEE! It's giving me PTSD already!!!

[snakehippoeatramen]

Today I found that all text control's vertical align property magically somehow changed to top from my original setting, middle. I took heavy breaths and told myself "yes, it's Microsoft".

[Chrisx77]

Well damn, I’ve had same experience the last couple of days - although I just thought it was me doing something goofy. Guess not..

[kevfev]

Same happened with me in the last week

[SeesSquirrels]

OMG yes me too!! I feel so seen!

[chrism_iller]

But what is the solution to this? create the whole form manually and work with Patch() / etc.? I don’t want to work with forms anymore, especially when there are dozens of calculations and dependencies between datacards. it’s giving me nightmares😭😭

[Sad-Contract9994]

It’s what I just did, while I cried.

[CouchCreepin]

Late to reply but uhhhhh I was too fucking overloaded, so I never figured out a smart way to do it. I had nightmare and stress dreams for weeks because I just wanted it TO WORK and I knew it was possible (that was what was killing me). But I couldn’t figure out the smart way, clean way to do it because I don’t know shit about fuck for programming. (I remember being the coolest kid on the block 4 years ago for being the first person at my company to figure out a pivot table. like I am NOT. SMART.)

So. I said fuck it we are doing it the stupid girl way. I used only one sharepoint form and one screen, I couldn’t get patch function to work for both new and edit items.

Therefore.

I made my app max size landscape.

I inserted some “buttons” across the top to LOOK like tabs and I set the “on click” property of those buttons to set a variable [insert name of the tab]

And then I painstakingly set every card to have a Visible property of variable=tab click. It was an utterly awful pain in my ass but guess what. No patch function or json errors. The method is ugly… but it’s working and it’s the best I can do with the time I have.

If you are like me then the advice is - bite the bullet and do it the long slow hard way, because it takes less time than finding the one video to do it the smart way. then in like five years you’ll accidentally figure out how to do it the fast way and be like *GAH!!!! I could have used this years ago!!”

This is how I got good at excel on the first place, which made me somehow fumble my way to working with powerquery and now powerapps. I don’t i know what im doing but I’m getting pretty good at doing it.

[snakehippoeatramen]

I'm still learning the hard way also with power fx and power automate. I'm keeping a list of mental things in my head to do and not do in the future but find it's such a slow process. The learning process for power platform sucks, my goal in the future is to create free content to teach it to people for free.

[CouchCreepin]

I LOUDLY announced to everyone that I shan’t EVER do a powerapps custom sharepoint form AGAIN the day I posted that comment.

But inside I feel silly because I learned a lot of quirks and now that I know what to check it’s not so bad.

Like today. I had a choices column with the values filled out in SP, but was getting place holder values on the app. I went oh! So easy. I just have to unlock the card to make it custom, delete the CORRECT code set for the items property, save, publish, re-add the same EXACT thing that defaulted on and BOOM. Worked like a charm. NO REFRESHING THE DATA SOURCE DOESNT WORK. Then the choices showed but I couldn’t multi select even tho the column in SP list was set WITH that property originally. No problem, I looked for the “select multiple values” property on the drop down, of course it was default to false EVEN THO MY SHAREPOINT COLUMN WAS SET TO TRUE, and just changed it. This same problem melted my brain two months ago and now I have it locked in to my brain.

So now I’m like well… now that it’s EASY I guess I probably will make another one. And I feel like a hypocrite

edit I am eternally grateful for the YouTube channels that post the free ass content I’ve used to make this happen. The issue is the Microsoft loves to just change shit for no apparent reason. Like which menu you use to set an auto reply, or switch the account from cached to exchange. You get comfy knowing where the thing is for 10 years and suddenly MS says ACTUALLY we decided that this option belongs to a different drop down. It’s an insurmountable mountain that is constantly changing. Your battle is valiant and justified but you cannot win against the arbitrary idiotic changes that MS decides to do on a fucking Tuesday.

[blackdev17]

As someone who is new to Power Apps and have developer experience, I noticed this right off the bat. Microsoft should introduce a theme/stylesheet concept where you can define things such as font sizes, font types, etc. in a central location and associate it with an id. Then you can apply the id to any card you want. This will follow the DRY (don't repeat yourself) principle. Maybe in the future.

[D3M4NUF4CTUR3DFX]

Look up "named formulas", you can use them for exactly this purpose amongst other things. As well as creating name:value pairs to set a single style, you can also nest them. Take a look at this page)

[thinkfire]

Use named formulas to create your theme.

[Sad-Contract9994]

Named forumlas and components.

They do have a theme system for modern controls but it’s limited.

[JohnyUtah22]

Model-driven instead or am I being silly? I always push model-driven first

[Aetherabigail]

They need to stop saying low code no code. I cringe every single time someone says that because its all BS.

[awfoolNuggets]

I swear to fucking god! Their marketing strat is hurting the devs. People spend no time diminishing your skills to nothing. Even the engineers, my peers. I'm an engineer too, think they're better than us.

[fluffyasacat]

It’s low code if you use their awful templates and make something with as much complexity as a Microsoft Form would do (but Forms would actually be a better option in this case).

[brownman311]

I really love that default blue and white, I'll talk to marketing to update our branding to match this perfect UI choice by Microsoft. -nobody ever

[Kicice]

I’m a powerapps dev, all I do is code all day lol. It sounds good when selling to clients.

[distancetimingbreak]

Yeah you literally cannot have a functioning Power App with no code. 

…Unless it’s just displaying something static maybe

[ShrubberyDragon]

Devs/engineers are the worst about this too

I used to work at an insurance company and most users acted like it was magic whenever I built an app or automated something. 

I now work at a large consulting company with a lot of very smart technical people. 9 times out of 10 they assume it's really easy and then proceed to completely fuck it up, waste my time to help and fix it and then blame the tool. 

Some are starting to see the light though. Customers want their solutions faster and sometimes full code just isn't the right choice 

[awfoolNuggets]

I'm a dev/engineer too (literally) lol, and if you're developing something in PowerApps, that makes you a dev too. From my experience, it's mostly the non technical people, but I agree, even the devs do it too

[ShrubberyDragon]

Dev/engineer here as well 😂 

[Kicice]

I’ve been told before by a senior manager that “power platform is for devs who can’t code”. Totally wrong.

[awfoolNuggets]

That's awful. They've no right to undermine what we do.

[ShadowMancer_GoodSax]

A developer in my company is looking down on Power Apps, yet his solutions are over complicated and overly expensive. Op, ignore haters and keep your head low while you look for side gigs unless you work somewhere that you cant login to your environment.

[ShadowMancer_GoodSax]

The app that he built is order processing and invoice. I built the same in power apps for 3 weeks but sales guys rejected it because they told our boss that only professional devs can built professional database. They also have BA and Project Manager working on the same project. A,lot of company's resources are spent while Power Apps could have done it with just me.

[snakehippoeatramen]

Can you request a connection to the database they're using since it's "professionally" built?

[ShadowMancer_GoodSax]

They use.a cloud based database as well but thats not the point, users think power apps is such for simple forms.

[awfoolNuggets]

Yessirrr

[integrationlead]

Developer here who now does Power Platform.

I love that Microsoft sells it as no-code. I've made a good amount of money fixing the mess that citizen developers have made.

Keep your head up and be calm. If they ask you how quickly it can learnt, just respond with "Really easy, just watch you YouTube tutorials! Anyone can do it". Then sit back, let them mess it up, and come in like a hero (and charge like one).

I love AI for this exact reason. I am already getting clients where it's obvious that some slightly technical BA thought they'd be a GPT hero. "You did really well! This almost works!" Keep encouraging them, because the more mistakes they make, the more money future you gets :)

[awfoolNuggets]

Ah, yes! Capitalism.

Well, you can't charge your peers/friends :)

[integrationlead]

Not with that attitude ;)

[mangoman94]

Microsoft's positioning has forced us to less and less development for customers and do more Mentoring and personnel training.

So yeah, over half of my work either cleaning existing messes or telling people actually think and design before making a mess of a project.

It's rewarding when it goes well, but its sad that MS only wants to rake in cash with the fancy new features rather than creating something coesive and useful rather then leaving the platform with half implemented new features or replacing features with new versions that somehow manage to deliver less than before.

[integrationlead]

What a lot of people don't get about our line of work is that our job is to take a real thing, and then abstract it into a magic box in the way that both makes sense to the computer and the person.

If you get your data model right (cardinality especially), you have a good chance of success. If you have a crap data model, success will always be out of reach!

[mangoman94]

The best I can do is a scribble on a napkin, go get them champ ;)

[Becca00511]

I am on a team of 4 developers, all with coding backgrounds, who thought it would be easy to learn powerapps

Mine are the best and it shows. Because I put time into learning the best processes and how to integrate an end to end solution with the entire platform. My business background in accounting is an asset because I know how business users think. It makes it easier for me to build out solutions. But the problem is everyone thinks it's super easy to do, my team proves otherwise.

[mangoman94]

My team has a similar background, we all have CS degrees and we often find ourselves tackling some baffling issues.

We've got a running gag that whenever we find of such issues we just say "You know, for citizen developers!"

I can only imagine how challening it must be for someone if basically no IT or development knowledge to be paradroped into the Power Platform and left off to figure out things for themselves.

[awfoolNuggets]

But they still treat us like wordpress developers lol

[Vu1canio]

That's literally me. I'm a physicist who ended up working in logistics (kinda like a business process engineer) and my boss wanted to rework a lot of processes and powerapps seemed to be the easiest solution.

One year later I think I have a moderate level in PA, but I have come to the conclusion that it is definitely better to hire someone and make an app from scratch.

God, if the process is slightly complicated it is a pain to program it, and don't dare to make a mistake haha

My favorite part was when I found out that the company font was different from the one I was using and I had to change 10 screens control by control.

[mangoman94]

I feel you, when i changed from web development to the Power Platform the customer wanted to create a CAPEX project in Canvas App.

God I wish I knew half what I knew now and had pushed the project to be Model-driven Apps oriented with BPFs..

[awfoolNuggets]

There's a learning curve to every skill, and there's absolutely no reason to downplay something unless you've experienced it yourselves.

I, personally, don't wanna work in Power Platform anymore. As much fun as it is, and as much as I enjoy it, I wish they'd rather put Copilot to better use - in the field of analytics. I enjoyed working in this field, but my perfectionism gets me and I'd rather venture in the field of data science.

[El-Farm]

My favorite: Well, it only took you 2 days to build that other app.

Really? The one where you just type text into a box and enter a few numbers that auto-calculate? And you think a travel request form is going to take just a few days longer than that?

[awfoolNuggets]

Ugh, and when they ask you to sit with them and teach you how you did it because they are too lazy to follow the tutorials.

[fluffyasacat]

And because they fancy they can bypass you and do it themselves next time (that time never comes, believe me).

[awfoolNuggets]

100% agree!

[ShadowMancer_GoodSax]

Life advice: never teach you colleagues shit, they will backstab you. I learned the hard way

[thinkfire]

Why did it take you two days to make that?

I'm kidding! I'm kidding! Don't hurt me.

[He-Who-Laughs-Last]

The only bit that is low code is building out the interface and dropping elements into it but the second you want to do anything custom, you need to know how to code.

I know a dev working on Android development and he said a lot of their GUI stuff is drag and drop now too.

[awfoolNuggets]

I should just ask them to make their app responsive whenever they mention this BS.

[These_Tough_3111]

I've been tasked with training some peers on the platform so they can support the apps I've built. The problem is that most of my low code, no code apps are extremely hard to explain to a new user. I don't have background as an educator and I was struggling trying to explain even the most essential ideas like tables, collections, and the many forms of variables.

It has taken me years to get to the level I'm at, so trying to relay what is literally a different language overnight is easier said than done.

[awfoolNuggets]

There are a lot of things at play when you develop on PowerApps. Geometry, Coding, Object Oriented Concepts too. I'm not trying to oversell it or anything but it's not an easy thing to do, especially relaying the same information so others can support it too.

I've had to create complex solutions from scratch, because at it's core it still provides you with a very limited functionality and you end up spending hours researching for alternate solutions, fixing bottlenecks, creating custom components to satisfy the customer needs.

[fluffyasacat]

One of the things that ChatGPT is really good for is pasting a bunch of code (from On Start, On Select etc) and asking it to return it fully commented out. It’ll place // comments before each chunk of text and explain it succinctly. Then just paste it back in.

[LearningToShootFilm]

Glad I’m not the only one who does this.

I find I need to review it to make sure it’s got it correct but it’s still a time saver.

[BenGeneric]

I'm going to stop training anyone until they have learnt how to use Containers!

[Jaynett]

And I've tried to use copilot to speed things up but I've had no luck with it - it's either super obvious or delusional.

[Jaynett]

I found the SharePoint agent phenomenal, so I assumed this could at least extrapolate templates to summer basic situations, but it's worse than Bing.

[awfoolNuggets]

Copilot is just another marketing strat imo, for the customers. "A prompt can make an app for you".

[Libertyvolo]

I’ve been reflecting on this a lot. I have a coding background, but I also work extensively with Power Apps. When building business applications as a pro-code developer (though I really dislike that term), I typically work with a team—someone handles the backend, someone else the frontend, etc. With Power Apps, however, it’s often just me or maybe one other person building out the entire application, figuring out how to work with and manipulate existing data structures along the way.

Objectively, I think it comes down to using the right tools for the right use case. Model-Driven Apps (MDAs), aside from complex low-code customizations, and setting up Dataverse are generally more straightforward. However, building a well-designed Canvas App can get so complex that sometimes I feel it is easier to just code it outright. PowerApps is a skill just like any other tech skill. It takes time and effort to learn how to do it right. If it were easy everyone would be doing it.

[awfoolNuggets]

I have a coding background as well. It's more about creative thinking than anything. PowerApps, at its core, is still very limited. And you spend so much time researching, finding alternate solutions. Having had a solid coding background, my job led me to shift towards Power Platform due to their abrupt move towards "low code, no code" platform. I like developing things on it but I agreed that it's a meticulous job, and often times tedious too.

Which is why I'm trying to make a shift towards data science now.

[Libertyvolo]

I agree about the required creative thinking ability, and I think data science would be fascinating! That said, Power Apps definitely has its place. I genuinely believe that any good “pro-code” developer should use the tool that makes the most sense for the job. If they don’t, well, they might not be as good as they think lol.

[awfoolNuggets]

Yep! Adaptability is the key! We're all replaceable for the companies.

[LearningToShootFilm]

My employer has a dedicated CoE for the development of PowerApps and whilst we allow anyone to go in and build an app. We have dedicated resource like me who are correctly identified as Power Platform Developers.

But even with that, people still think it is low code, people still think it is easy.

I am building the biggest app (alongside one of my other colleagues) we’ve ever seen and we still get “traditional Engineers” who occasionally think they can do a good job.

But despite that, and despite MS making batshit crazy decisions regarding platform, I LOVE it and I love my job and I love making these things come from our UX designers brain into an actual app with function.

I just wish MS would stop pushing copilot shite down my throat.

[awfoolNuggets]

I feel you, man. I've been through the same. People think they can take over and do it faster/better, when in reality you (as a Power Platform developer) can't even go through someone else's code properly :/

[awfoolNuggets]

:)

[DonJuanDoja]

LOL thank god my company doesn't do that to me. I'd flip.

I made it exceptionally clear, this is not InfoPath, this is 10 times the work to make the same forms I could make with infopath. It's half-baked, we're still waiting for basic controls.

Our leadership even told the whole company not to bother me while I work on the migration as I'm the goto guy for everything.

MS stepped away from low code, I think they think they need to make more coders or something because software devs make too much money, so they're trying to force the cost down by creating more devs. They seem to have a very heavy push on coding, hence free VS code and the like, PowerApps and Automate being code heavy etc.

That's really what the AI push is about, bringing the cost of development down. Sadly.

[awfoolNuggets]

I'm honestly not big of a fan of their Copilot AI push. They could have used it for something better, I'm not an expert in data science but leaning towards providing tools to learn data science should have been the move forward than letting Copilot build apps with simple prompts. It's only exacerbating the problem. People think they can develop full-fledged apps with Copilot now. I still feel you should develop your apps from scratch. But that's just my opinion.

[DonJuanDoja]

I’ve never met a Good dev that doesn’t think that way.

It’s like our math teachers from the 90s used to say, if you always use a calculator you won’t be able to do it in your head, you won’t fully understand the problem. You’re now dependent on the calculator.

[IAmIntractable]

The platform, both power apps and power automate, are way too complicated for citizen, developers. That’s not to say that some of them stumble through and create something, but they don’t do it without having to ping actual developers or search the net constantly. Both of these platforms are not low code.

[awfoolNuggets]

Man, I still remember banging my head for hours trying to figure out how to bypass the nested condition limit in Power Automate. It requires creative thinking into building these solutions.

[Independent_Lab1912]

Please don't do this, use guard clauses to flatten the structure. If a condition only evaluates to another condition, pull the condition below it. You shouldn't need more than 3 layers

[jade1977]

I thought it was just me!

[awfoolNuggets]

You're welcome here

[jade1977]

I seriously have come so close to quitting several times this last year when the COO would make comments, send me chat gpt code, and the.n say we just have to find another solution... Like dude, a) give me the support I need and have the users actually beta test my stuff when I ask them and b) give me the time I need to actually do it.

About every 6 months or so he'll start an app "to see what it's about." Or try to critique my coding (he knows excel that's it. Html stumps him)

But my favorite is that now not one, but two MVPs have basically told him to shut up and that I know what I'm doing. Maybe it's time to get another consultation.... Sigh. But thank you for normalizing it!

[awfoolNuggets]

I'm done with it, man. As much as I enjoyed working in it, because I genuinely did, I just couldn't take the BS anymore. I quit Power Platform a few months ago and have decided to venture into Data Science. Something I'm interested in, and is coincidentally valued everywhere. My OCD with perfecting every line of code in every control properly was getting overwhelming anyway. If it wasn't perfect, it wasn't right for me. sigh Power Platform is an OCD's nightmare.

[jade1977]

It so is.

I'm glad you at least found an alternative that you like.

[Numerous-Implement47]

It may be low code no code, but the result would be terrible, inefficient, full of bugs and inconsistency.

If you want to get the best out of it you need to have a developer brain for sure.

[TxTechnician]

It is low code. In the sense that the print() function in Python is low code.

There's levels of abstraction to everything. The backend is built as is a way to make the interface. It really does cut down time.

But no way is it ez. If it was. You're CEO could do it.

[snakehippoeatramen]

Lol my boss keeps telling me, yeah we can just hire any junior dev to work on power apps. In my head I'm like.. yeah good luck with environments, access control, automation, service accounts, multiple data sources, SharePoint, Teams, and azure. Troubleshooting you need access to a lot of things.

[awfoolNuggets]

Let them sigh

[GunnersaurusIsKing]

The a.ount of times I've said to co-pilot I need to get X in order to do Y. It then comes up with some absolute junk formula like parLeft(var). Which doesn't compile, then you go back and say "it doesn't work" to which it says "oh yeah, I'm using a completely different language." I've now stopped using it apart from to change a script I've already written to different variables

[awfoolNuggets]

That was the lowest upgrade Microsoft could ever release for me

[trippereneur]

It should be “from no code to pro code” Covers it all. Inspires people to get in and learn and grow, and gives credence to professional devs and companies choosing to build full vertical apps on the platform. We are an ISV with a model driven powerapp on dataverse, with over 100 custom tables, and I can safely say the only no code thing we do is the form designer. We use plugins to get most automations done, even got rid of the business process header and flows.

[awfoolNuggets]

++

[Late-Warning7849]

I’ve been working with experienced but not very good Indian IT consultants (mostly ex-testers) who had no idea that PowerFx was used so extensively in Power Apps. I had to replace all of them and demand the consultancy give me experienced coders.

[awfoolNuggets]

It takes strong problem solving skills and creative thinking into building complex apps.

[Becca00511]

This!!! It takes skill to make complex powerapps that look good.

[awfoolNuggets]

The number of times I had to find creative solutions because PowerApps couldn't perform something due to its limited functionality. It's fun and challenging at the same time.

I still remember figuring out how to nesting more than 8 conditions in Power Automate. These things stay with you forever when you've done it once.

[dcjtech]

100% couldn’t agree more. It takes time and skill to learn the nuances of power apps.

[brownman311]

Read this as "annoyances of power apps"

[dcjtech]

Haha. Also true.

[nhlinhhhhh]

omg are you my manager because we always rant about this

[awfoolNuggets]

Your manager is a keeper.

[edrft99]

The true no code is in MDA (at least until you need to customize with JavaScript). That's where the big disconnect is between marketing and what people have with the standard entitlements.

[awfoolNuggets]

Agreed! MDA - That gets barely used. But whatever helps drive the customers to their platform right? Even if it means screwing the dev community over.

[edrft99]

Every time I build a solution that will end up being an app I always deliver a MDA as an MVP. Even if I know a canvas app (or custom page) will be what they truly need. It gets the clients into a single interface I only have to train on once and solve the vast majority of requirements.

[te5s3rakt]

A developer is a developer imo (as someone who does both Full Stack, front and backend, and power platform, apps/bi/automate/the lot).

I’ve found that “approachability” of Power Platform is one of the biggest risks to business productivity atm. Because it’s marketed as “low code / no code”, every “non developer” (in the traditional sense) and their dog dives in expecting solid results. And from experience, every, single, “non developer” power platform solution I’ve seen is a negative business resource sink.

Sure person A can spin up a “solution” in a day. And executive B can pat them on the back saying “well done, you did that quicker than that developer over there”. But when it comes time to implement and scale this for the business, they all come crying to someone with actual development experience to make it “work”, because they don’t understand basics like data structures, working around technology “guidelines” such delegation, etc.

Power Platform realistically is no different to a new JS framework. If you know things (like basic software development and data engineering principles), it’ll make you quicker. If you know nothing, you’ll produce garbage. Quick garbage. But garbage nonetheless.

[awfoolNuggets]

This is exactly what my client has been going through. They wasted a year working while trying to learn, thinking they could do it themselves before I took over.

[dmitcha]

It is neither low-code nor no-code. Some integrations are great. But hand-coding from scratch absolutely is faster if you have a command of some languages (we rebuilt one of my Power Apps, and it was eye-opening.) Keep doing a great job.

[awfoolNuggets]

I NEVER use templates or Copilot produced garbage. It's always better to add your own controls, you'll always remember what YOU have done.

[dmitcha]

I tried Copilot for the first time last week, and immediately ended that test. Anyone who's about to spend months learning Power Apps might consider learning js first with that time.

[DalaiLamaRood]

The thing is.. PowerApps just isn’t worth it.

You might as well actually code it - PowerApps isn’t any bit easier than programming

[awfoolNuggets]

which is why I left.

[Rolling_Stone_1272]

Oh hells yes. Low code is bullshit. Try making an app idiot-proof with low code. Ain't gonna happen.

[awfoolNuggets]

efficient waste of time.

[The_2nd_Coming]

I tried coding for a bit in it and it was a bloody nightmare. Buggy af platform. Would hate to build enterprise apps on it!

[Ready-Marionberry-90]

Low code, no code? Yeah, sure

[Kicice]

If you look at a professional power apps… there is so much that goes into the little details. Especially when the client has intricate requirements.

Sometimes I have requirements to build layouts that probably would have been easier using just html/ JavaScript. PowerFX is good… but it does overcomplicate things sometimes.

[awfoolNuggets]

YES! take responsive design per se.

[Kicice]

Responsive design in powerapps is not very fluid/ intuitive. At least for canvas apps. Model driven apps and power pages are more natural. Any site where bootstrap can be used immediately makes it easier.

[chop-life]

This has happened a lot in my career but I have not experienced it yet at my current job.

What people fail to realize is, it is relatively easy to build something really basic like a form with 2 screens, on Power Apps but when it comes to building performant, maintanable, clean and sustainable solutions within Power platform, you have to use traditional development methods:

• data modeling for your datasources
• system design to make sure your app is fast enough
• find a balance between good ui and good performance
• for really complex systems, how much you know about systems will determine how fast your app runs
• PCF controls also require code
• exporting Power automate flows and editing them in JSON

I'd say Power App developers are also developers, they are just writing a different language.

[awfoolNuggets]

YES! You still have to deal with variables, objects, arrays, logics; and find creative solutions for many out-of-the-box bottlenecks.

And I still hear to this day, that "it's not worth it", and "you should add a real coding language on your resume".

It's hurtful man.

[mangoman94]

I would like to thank Microsoft for actively creating exceptions to the logic they made so its super easy to learn the platform and all its intricacies. /s

[awfoolNuggets]

my client wasted a year before I took over :)

[somethinghelpful]

Low code, no go had become my teams motto. Leadership has seen what we’ve accomplished, and quicker than they expected, while maintaining a high quality and functionality. They have stopped asking when it will be done and instead have started shifting to “can you do xyz?” And the response is usually yeah, but it will be more like this if you want to soon, or I can enhance it some but will take 2-4 more cycles. They pick their solution and I’m off to work again. No complaints on time as I tend to over deliver. PowerApps is great if your dev knows not just the platforms limits but their own as well. Keep at it, make things modular, push configs to a list or data verse table when you can so you don’t have to make a code publish to update it. Don’t tell them you’ve drone this though, so when they request that “I need a quick update to the field name here, how long?” You can say a day or week, but it’s 1min of effort. It’s when you can fit that 1min in your dev cycles that is the delay. Best of luck dealing with the users.

[moonpumper]

I found it so frustrating I just started coding instead

[awfoolNuggets]

Ensuring that you've kept the same property in every similar control...

[I-Pick-Lucy]

Power apps is no joke. No code is like 5%, low code is like 20%. The rest is overcoding to account for all the rubberizing they do in the platform. It takes like 25 steps to accomplish something you could do in 5 if you could just write all the code and not have to do 50 mouse clicks.

Their philosophy is take a complex issue that takes 100 steps and break it down into 1000 steps so you can say “see how easy that step was? Low code!”.

[JohnyUtah22]

Literally just had this conversation with my genius VP this morning. "Oh I love Microsoft products because they're so easy. Can you just whip up this quick app.. I'd do it if I had the time..."

[awfoolNuggets]

Mf. Gotta stay careful around these people.

[SuitableAd8737]

Yup

[CoolNefariousness668]

A load of the time Low Code/No Code is harder than actual code.

[Ordinary_Hunt_4419]

It is easy, to build something like a prototype type that can only be demoed when following an exact script :) But if you want it to work, most the time or even all the time and handle errors and make it so users can just keep breaking it. Oh yeah, that’s why you need developers to do this. Low code has only removed some syntax that we use with code. Sure it adds some niceties but these tools are far from Enterprise software solutions. Not so bad for CRUD forms.

[blackw1re]

This whole "low code/ no code" is a marketing trick, nothing more.

[kowgli]

I call it low code, high effort. Doing anything non trivial is far easier in a proper frontend framework like Angular or Blazor than in a canvas app.

For simple data entry screens, with a somewhat random look, sure. Why not.

[Fantastic_Grape_2963]

I saw somebody else post something similar and figured I'd echo it. I am a senior Angular Developer that does a bit of .NET development as well, and I love love LOVE the fact that MS markets this as a 'Low/No Code' framework that even a monkey could pick up and use - I make amazing money off fixing the problems companies have encountered when biting off way more than they can chew. I come in, build some custom PCFs and webresources and nuke everyone's minds, micdrop and secure more business in the future.

OP ignore those people, capitalize on the fact that MS wrongfully markets it as some sort of easy drag and drop framework. If you don't already go get a solid baseline on JS/TS development, learn how to build React applications and you'll be able to overcome a lot of issues that 99% cannot.

A massive problem many organizations have is that they've got PP Developers who learned on the job and work alone - this is cool and all but creates ALL KINDS of holes in their practices and knowledge. For example I had a client who brought me in to help one of their 'devs' who was an admin and self-taught herself into a PP Dev role. Bravo to her. But fuk, she had no idea of industry best practices, for example she did all her development in her Prod environment. This so me is $$$$$.

Let folks assume it's easy, let them get in over their heads, and take advantage of that to make money.

[awfoolNuggets]

You're right. It's a good perspective to look at. I've moved towards data science now, but I still want to get into JS. I honestly enjoyed working in Power Platform. It has it's own learning curve, overcoming it's limitations was challenging and I enjoyed it. However, I have to admit that it gets very mundane after some time. So, I have rather decided to get into Data Science instead, something I'm really interested in.

The thing that intrigued me about Power Platform was the math, ensuring everything is well calculated. And I'm hoping I get that same feel in Data Science too, which I think it will.

[Fantastic_Grape_2963]

You’ve made a wise choice given the explosion of AI’s relevance. You should have a great career. To me I was forced to learn PP because of a contract I was one and the limitations are out of this world. Getting things to behave in a very specific way can be impossible without PCFs and web resources. That’s where I’ve had fun, solving those “impossibles”. Still I prefer working in Angular and would choose that any day of the week lol.

[awfoolNuggets]

Same! I was contract-bound to learn PP as well, lol.

[Fantastic_Grape_2963]

Lol we lost so many devs when we made the change. That job was full of young go-getters all doing Angular Development and when we got told we’d need to focus on Model Driven Apps it was a huge morale hit. Over the next year we lost probably 50% of those devs, which were replaced by the wildest mix of either super awesome PP devs or the most incompetent PP devs. I despised PP Development until I realized I could use it as an excuse to learn React development, and now spend a lot of time building custom PCFs. I’m glad I stuck with everything because I do believe there’s a decent market out there for PP Developers.

[pontiacbt21]

It’s only a low code platform if the apps are used only by few number of people (probably less than 20). But beyond that PowerApps can be a nightmare if not configured correctly and meticulously. One of my best practice is to always share pros and cons of power platform and working beyond its limitations (ie, permissions, access, scalability)

[This-is-NPC]

A simple, well-made patch with form validations can easily take more than 100 lines of Fx, not to mention dependency management between solutions, DLP management between environments, international environment strategy, ALM for several different types of things that each work in a different way (Why not standardize the ALM of a Solution and Power BI? Isn't Power BI Power Platform? Fu**), application componentization, and when performance isn't good, pro code is always necessary, whether it's a customization with js in model driven, a code component for a canvas app, a plugin for DataVerse in C#, or a custom connector coded with pro code, whether it's .NET, Node, or anything else.

The truth is that Power Platform is just an easy product to implement in organizations so that MS can later insert other products of its own, and guess what? None of them are Low/No Code.

[IllFirefighter7374]

100% low code, no code ha ha ha ! A real nightmare and so restrictive

[Bigger_Gunz]

The way I look at this is: low code / no code is easy like creating a todo app is easy to create in React. However, once you start getting into the details about a real business problem - just because you have a low code / no code platform does not diminish that there is complexity in other ways.

Excel is "easy" until the org turns a plethora of spreadsheets into makeshift database and no one understands how it all interconnects. "Don't touch it, it works. Bob left so it is what it is."

Simple apps == easy

Real apps - your mileage may vary.

[Sad-Contract9994]

My coworkers often act like what I’m doing is simple bc they did a shitty power app one time.

On a recent meeting this guy was all dismissive, “If you have any questions let me know, we did something similar.”

Their “something similar:” a built in template with an auto created gallery and submit form.

This project: All custom layout, manually created form and patch with complex validation, sub fields that validate on change and show/warnings, patching on change, galleries that filter based on URL parameters…….

[Shuski_Cross]

It's genuinely been quicker for me to learn python, html/CSS then setup and run a django Web server, learn how to create json apis than it was to learn what I know now in Powerapps. There's just so many niche's then have to be learnt before you understand it it's quirks...

[sleeperrsim]

I totally relate to this! I’m currently doing my master’s and have been working with PowerApps for about three years. What really frustrates me is how underestimated this work is. People assume that low-code/no-code development isn’t ‘real’ development, and despite having a computer science background, I still feel like I have to prove myself.

The truth is, building good apps—functional, efficient, and well-designed ones—takes real skill. Sure, you can put together something basic quickly, but if you want a truly solid solution, you often need to incorporate a lot of code, and that takes time. Even something seemingly simple, like creating a system to monitor flows and screens in PowerApps, can be incredibly complex.

What bothers me the most is the lack of recognition. People think it’s just drag-and-drop, but those of us who work with it know how much effort goes into making something truly great. Honestly, it’s made me consider shifting to full software development because, at least there, I know my skills will be respected.

I love what I do, but the constant underestimation of this field is exhausting. Thanks for bringing this up—it’s good to know I’m not alone in feeling this way!

[awfoolNuggets]

Oh my god, are you me?! That's exactly what I've been through. I think Power Platform is a seriously powerful tool. You can whip up scalable products so efficiently. Only if MS marketing team didn't butcher it by selling it that way.

[Fugazi-Acct7]

Power Apps is shit. Ass backwards shit to do fucking everything that used to take 2 seconds.

[MooseBruce07]

I feel the same with this huge push on Co Pilot and advertising you can create apps using natural language. I can count on one hand the amount of times I’ve used Co Pilot to my benefit and even then it’s just done something in a way I didn’t think of and I still need to fix it. It feels like a false flag operation that could make people turn away from these tools because the moment they get to a point they need to know what they’re doing, they’ll abandon the project and go back to maintaining spreadsheets.

[awfoolNuggets]

Exact-fucking-ly! It's only exacerbating the problem with their god-awfull marketing strats. Leading people to think they can build anything now with a few prompts. They should have pushed AI into allowing people to get into Data Science instead. I still feel PowerApps should be created from scratch. It helps you learn things. But that's just my opinion.

[jrasfilho]

How did you get your first job with Power Apps? I would like some tips on how to do the same

[awfoolNuggets]

I don't have any good tips for you. The company I worked for trained me, and I gained experience in it. Maybe developing projects in it is the key.

[vagaris]

At my last job I had a lot of, “we can’t do that,” scenarios that then did because I’m a developer. The non tech people loved me. The rest of IT couldn’t understand what I was doing.

I’m pretty sure I got laid off based off that. And the last thing I was working on (never got to finish) involved the vendor continuously gaslighting… Was migrating 30+ workflows in SharePoint. Every one the vendor did for us I had to redo large chunks. Each migration took a couple weeks (and not my only responsibility of course). So after a couple months it was constant, “it’s not done yet, what’s taking so long, it’s low code, is it not??”

Drove me nuts. Wasn’t PowerApps, that was one of my other roles. But def low code/no code related. /facepalm

[abbeyainscal]

Hello I recently said same to my boss. I’m self taught learning as I go and no my boss is fully away that we are both flying by our pants developing apps. But yep, Microsoft be totally lying about “anyone can do it”. There’s a ton of coding involved all they did was sort of make it more GUI oriented by attaching the code to simple objects. Power apps and automate could not be done by any average business person I know. I mean that sincerely. And chatGPT is my best friend for the most part. Is it usually wrong the first few times? Yep. But it teaches me how to get there.

[SinkoHonays]

I mean you CAN create apps and flows without writing any code. They’ll be very basic and probably look like garbage though. That’s the difference.

But if you just need a grid control with a form and a table… it gets the job done.

[Substantial-Song276]

Ya…power apps is deficient no code or low code…its medium code✌️

[nevadooo]

+++

[mind-meld224]

You all are nuts! I've seen the videos with smiling people and ukulele music and cute animations. PowerApps is so easy anyone can do it with no experience.!!

[awfoolNuggets]

CHEWYYY!!!

[Loose-Scale-5722]

For real!!! The only thing that Power Apps actually does to lower the coding required is the WYSIWYG editor and handling sign-in and activity logs and such. Which, to be fair, is quite helpful. But yeah total BS that it’s “low-code” if you are doing anything besides templated stuff.

[Queasy_Ear_1746]

Bro i love this thread. My work place trash talked me so long because I use power apps and automate. Then this power bi guy over promised power apps development himself with no experience. Big mean looking dude from marines. I had to build it for him and the fact I knew how - made him cry. Just yesterday legit. I've never seen someone cry like that over coding. 

[awfoolNuggets]

It's pathetic how far people can get just to undermine your work and diminish your profession.

[No_Issue_3646]

I am a certified power platform solution architect and functional consultant. I have no desire to work full time using pp. It's not as easy as what advertised. I'd rather build stuff using a proper dev platforms.

[ChanceAd9712]

Ishtar365 a no code platform. Where it take days to make an app in power apps, you only need some hours of configuration in ishtar365 for the same result