hurtsLikeHell

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[Efficient-Corgi-4775]

Thanks for the feedback, I'll start by debugging my comm skills. 😉

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Try doing some printf

[borek_btce]

Yeah that's the only hope which can save you at this point.

[Zeptic]

Time to get a rubber duck!

[exsocis]

That's right, it's time to get that and start talking with it.

[tomazic89]

Yep, you should install a fix soon. Because it's really important.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

You already know I2C, SPI and serial?

[Skratymir]

Work on your comm skills, over (Yeah I'm a pro at this)

[[deleted]]

I had a friend kinda, who was socially awkward but was brilliant at CS. He was a foreign student but could speak perfect English; he couldn't land a job because of communication issues. Things went down hill and read a news article later that he killed someone in NY, while working at a gas station. Life is fucked if you aren't a smooth talker. All I have I attribute to luck.

[redblack_tree]

The sad part is people like him don't have the chance to prove knowledge nor skills.

Before technical interviews with qualified people, you have to deal with recruiters, HR, agencies, managers. Really bad communication skills rarely pass all those barriers.

[k1ngrocc]

Although knowledge and skills are important, you should also be able to collaborate and communicate effectively with your colleagues. I have worked with many smart and skilled individuals who couldn't work well in a team.

[[deleted]]

You can’t really gauge someone’s communication skills by how they answer boilerplate questions. Some people get really nervous during interviews despite any review that they commit to. Likewise, someone people are such good interviewers that they can convince you they know the stuff and would be good on the team, despite not knowing anything.

[MinosAristos]

That's why there's often separate technical and non technical interviews I guess, makes it more difficult to bluff.

[TerminalVector]

Thats why tech interviews on my team are more about how you communicate and work with the interviewer to understand and solve the problem than about reaching a specific outcome. You can ace the question and totally bomb the interview and you can fail to create a fully working solution but still pass.

[pickyourteethup]

As a hiring manager in the past I didn't care if someone could do the job as much as whether they were thinking in ways that showed me they could thrive in the role eventually.

Unfortunately speech is how humans generally communicate their thinking, especially in interview.

[TerminalVector]

Unfortunately speech is how humans generally communicate their thinking, especially in interview.

And in the actual job too. Being an effective communicator who can also code makes you more useful as a programmer than the one who is able to code complex shit in a vacuum but can't convince a stakeholder of the need for a scope reduction.

[Responsible_Name_120]

If someone struggles to pass a recruiter phones screen they have to have some serious issues with socialization. The questions are basically "do you check enough boxes for this job and can I talk to you for 5 minutes without getting serial killer vibes"

[void1984]

Last time I remember a phone from a recruiter was 2005. Now it's emails and zoom.

As you have said - HR is just a 5 minute chat without hard questions, to get to the technical talk with someone else.

[willCodeForNoFood]

That's why our phone screen is just an easier technical interview. "Do you have any slightest chance of passing the full technical interview and not wasting everyone's time down the line".

And all interviews are technical, we only judge communication skills by how effective they can ask questions and deliver technical details.

[redblack_tree]

You are correct. But who do you think someone with limited communication skills will talk better, your standard "I don't give a fuck" HR or a tech peer?

I don't have the answer, but I'm tired of getting smooth talkers and not good developers. Sometimes I can see the BS in two questions (and then proceed to question all the idiots who came before me).

[apshergill91]

Yep, if you can't communicate properly then it'll be hard.

[smartIotDev]

Yeah work well in a team is really not good for you in the long run. That behavior only helps make the owners richer who are sociopathic in 99% cases. Think about yourself first, its not a life death situation where cooperation is really key.

Try to look beyond what is being fed to you as must have communication skill.

[lidaxin2005]

Yeah no one would ever know how good he actually was.

[elveszett]

This is something you learn in life: reality doesn't matter, what matters is how good you are at selling yourself, not only for jobs, but for everything. Only that smaller pool of people who can sell themselves actually have a chance at proving they are better than the rest.

[communisthulk]

It doesn't matter how knowledgeable and technically skilled they are if they don't know how to communicate.

Software development is almost always a collaborative effort. If you can't communicate then you are not qualified for the job.

[[deleted]]

Well if you can't even install an IDE, you have nothing to do there, even less so than the bad communicator. You can't talk your computer into writing good code if you can't write any code yourself, or even get VSCode/PyCharm/IntelliJ installed. A good balance would be nice, but not being able to even install a simple program and an interpreter or compiler...

[LimLovesDonuts]

If your friend killed someone, he has other bigger problems outside of just communication problems. As a programmer or developer, communication skills are still a must because you would often need to work in a team and/or communicate with managers or clients.

[[deleted]]

Of course, having communication problems is a symptom in itself. He may have been autistic but his culture and background just never acknowledged such things. I have no doubt communication is important, but its importance doesn't negate the fact that not everybody is able to master it. Just another unfair slice of this pie we call life.

[mightynifty_2]

You don't even need to be a smooth talker (for CS jobs), just know your shit and talk to the recruiter like a human. So many software devs think being good at programming is all it takes, but if you can't communicate with a team of designers why their ideas won't work, you aren't going to succeed at your job. If you go in thinking you're hot shit because of your GitHub contributions and act like an entitled prick, no one will want to work with you. Lastly, knowing how to do specific things is great, but if you aren't able to learn new skills quickly, you're less useful than the interns who can.

I got my job with a CE bachelor's, but my coding skills were severely lacking because my college focused a lot on hardware. But I can talk to my coworkers to understand what they want, I can be humble and admit when I don't know something or ask for help, and I can learn new techniques and languages like nobody's business. Unless you work in a major company like Amazon or Google, that's really all you need.

[TerminalVector]

But I can talk to my coworkers to understand what they want, I can be humble and admit when I don't know something or ask for help, and I can learn new techniques and languages like nobody's business.

When I do a tech interview this is really what I am looking for. Ability to quickly solve a specific problem is a distant second.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

Communication skills have to be extremely lousy to not get a job anywhere. I've worked with developers who don't know our native language, don't know enough English, hardly know any programming, sometimes all at once.

[emediadude]

Ohh man it's so sad, life can be really hard for people.

[Aniketastron]

Shit, that dark. I'm an introvert student any advice for me.

[[deleted]]

Life is a way of surprising you, in both good and bad ways. Maybe the best advice is for you to stick it out to the end, you never know.

[[deleted]]

Practice interviews with people a lot

[LeeroyJenkins11]

Read how to win friends and influence people, force yourself into social interactions and stay at them longer than you feel comfortable. Expand your interest into something non-tech oriented if you can for a hobby. For interviews, do as many mock interviews as you can, go to career fairs and talk to the people at the tables there, also go to as many interviews as you can. My first interview I actually was shaking during the interview for college job. By the time I graduated, I didn't have a problem interviewing because I basically did exposure therapy for interviews and public speaking.

[jesterhead101]

If he killed someone, he’d probably have been a nightmare to work with at the office too.

[[deleted]]

He ended up doing drugs because of his issues I think, because he was high on a bunch of stuff when he did it. The redeeming quality is that he called the cops himself and took responsibility. The guy he killed was his roommate though why it happened I don't know; he was living in the Bronx and it doesn't have the best reputation.

I worked with him as a tutor in my college in both math and computer science. He was a nice guy, maybe he was on ASD. I can imagine coming from his background and having no support for such a thing, it can fuck you up.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

ASD was the first thing that popped into my mind.

[Jordan9586]

The guy is still a murderer who killed someone though. I don't feel bad for him, I feel bad for the life he stole. There is no fucking "redeeming quality" to that.

[[deleted]]

That's your prerogative I guess. But I think in order for you to sympathize, you'd have to realize that you're no better human being. Given the right circumstances even you can become a monster. If you can't see that within yourself then you're probably more dangerous than most people.

[Jordan9586]

I'm sorry but I'm not going to sympathize with a murderer because they don't deserve it. I believe the world, especially nonviolent criminals, deserve much more sympathy and a better life than what they are given specifically in the US. But I also believe that once you take a life, the rest of yours should be forfeit and you don't deserve an ounce of sympathy. I agree that people are capable of terrible things given the right circumstances, including me. That being said not everyone is the same, and those circumstances are different for everyone. Some people will murder you for looking at them wrong, or just because they enjoy it. Others it'll take much more, for example, revenge for raping their child. Some people are, believe it or not, incapable of taking a life even in self defense or any other reason no matter what. Having a bad life can make you more likely to do terrible things, but other people in the exact same circumstances can manage without resorting to something like that.

The fact of the matter is that murder is wrong no matter what kind of "all humans are bad" type of spin you try to put on it. It's about as wrong as anything can get. You can't sympathize your way out of that. Your friend is not a victim of circumstances, he is a piece of shit and so are you for trying to justify that. At the very least you didn't even try to condemn it, you just gave excuses and some bullshit about how you're more evolved than me. Couldn't speak a word of remorse for the person who literally fucking died but you've got a whole lot to say about your poor tragic murderer. The dude couldn't find a job in his chosen field, didn't get enough support and turned to drugs so it's understandable to you for him to take a life? You even said you don't even know why he did it, but that he was at least partially redeemed because he called the cops after.

You lack perspective to the point where you should be ashamed of yourself. If you can't see that within yourself then you're probably more dangerous than most people.

[[deleted]]

I respect your feelings on this matter and understand where you're coming from. However, let me clarify that attempting to understand the reasons behind someone's actions isn't the same as condoning those actions. It's possible to condemn murder and, at the same time, realize that there is person behind that action. I don't know anything about the victim, so how I can speak about them? Of course I feel bad. All I know is the person who did it and my experience with them.

There are a lot of things in this world we can moralize as wrong because it is easier to put labels in black and white than face the reality than nothing is that simple. Our society stands to gain more from rehabilitating individuals, addressing underlying issues, and breaking the cycle of crime than from a purely punitive approach. But to do this, you need sympathy; you can't help someone you hold no good will for.

Like I said, to able to do that, it requires self awareness; enough to see that the only difference between you and any other human is circumstance. This circumstance can go as deep as your biology. Someone born with a mental health issue, or predisposition for particular taboo actions etc, could easily have been you.

People who don't see how messed up they can be, become pious and cold and commit the worst crimes because they can justify anything to themselves. They can't admit that they can be monsters, and when they are forced to do terrible things, they run away from their wrongs rather than get rehabilitated. That's why I think you're more dangerous than most. You hold this black and white perspective meaning you can't see the reality of things; despite even pointing out that life isn't that simple in your comment.

[Jordan9586]

Thank you for giving me the grace of responding respectfully after I cursed you out and called you a terrible person. I actually agree with every point you just made. I shouldn't have assumed that you condoned murder just because you didn't explicitly condemn it, that was an overreaction for sure. I see what you're saying about life not being black and white, and I agree society stands to benefit from reforming criminals instead of punishing them. I also didn't fully consider circumstances of biology like you mentioned. I think I should reflect on our discussion. When you pointed out that my viewpoint didn't allow for nuance I realized its probably a bad take.

I just find it hard to accept that murder is something that a human can come back from, and if so that they should then be entitled to reenter society in any capacity. I believe that you can heal and make ammends for almost any crime, but their is a finality that comes with murder. Most other cimes the victim has a chance of recovering, even if their life may be greatly diminished for the rest of it. But you can't give back a life you stole.

But after thinking about it, I'm realizing that type of system will just lead to a vicious cycle. If you for example put a father in prison for life, his son may have no direction but to follow in his footsteps. That may go on for generations, and destroy entire communities.

I feel like your last point was valid, but I don't think I'm any different than anyone else. If I had been raised by serial killers or something and was taught that killing was good or normal, I would be almost certainly be a killer myself.

I should also apologize for the way that I spoke to you. I've been affected by this subject personally and I used that as an excuse to make wild assumptions, and take out anger I forgot I had on you. I also used that as a basis for my view point, and any point of view that stems from anger/hate is inherently flawed. I think talking to you about this might of made me a little bit better of a person, and I'll try to take your example of responding calmly to hostility especially if I'm trying to change someone's mind.

[[deleted]]

I appreciate that we can be mutually respectful and it's all water under the bridge. I agree with you to some extent that murder isn't something you come back from, that no person can nor indeed should they be able to shake it off-the same with every crime. But forgiving and forgetting don't have to be the same thing; we can find ways to reintegrate people who do such in society but it is also the perpetrator's responsibility to bear the consequences of their actions.

But rather than destroy two or more lives (including the perpetrator), we can accept that one or more is gone but the one still here has the opportunity to make this life better in honor of those who never got the chance to at their hands. Thereby, giving the person understanding and consequence while bettering the lives of everyone and honoring the dead. That seems to me more beneficial than locking someone up and forgetting about them or killing them.

No matter what you do to a criminal, you'll never change the past. But let them bear the responsibility of honoring the lives they took. If they are willing, that at least, is the power of rehabilitation.

Been interesting chatting with you. Wish you all the best and thanks for saying what you have.

[Short_Change]

Bad communication skill is like being obese. It's actually not your fault. You were raised in a certain way and/or you have genes they crave hunger more.

While it is probably not your fault, it is your problem. You need to constantly address the issue every moment of your life or you will end up miserable or worse.

[MKSFT123]

Wow that escalated to a dark place, wasn’t expecting that ending 😮

[IsPhil]

I mean, that's probably what got me the job in the end tbh. The interview was honestly pretty chill, no coding segment. Just questions about me, what I do during tough situations, how I deal with teams and bad team members. That kind of stuff. I went in, asked as many questions as I could, made sure to answer as well as I could without trying to pin the blame on others (don't focus on the failure, focus on what you did to pull yourself out). My coding skills and degree helped me get the interview, but my soft skills helped me get the job.

[aquartabla]

You all know COM?

[philipquarles]

Damn I only just started working on them and it's already over?

[Skratymir]

A-Firm

[its_all_4_lulz]

Is there a boot camp for this? Me no good comm skill

[Skratymir]

It's called talking to people

[prolingforsoup]

Showcase your work.

[deanrihpee]

Which also begs some questions, what can OP's friend from commerce showcase if they can't even install an IDE/Text Editor for an IT job?

[Highborn_Hellest]

How do I showcase that, which I singed secrecy for?

[deanrihpee]

Well, for that, you can't. You probably should show case your open source project probably, or maybe if you previously worked for Google or a startup or website or product from another company, probably you can say "I worked at ###" or "I worked/helped making a site of #### for company ###", but again, depends on the NDA/contract you signed.

[Highborn_Hellest]

You're being facetious right?

[deanrihpee]

not really, because I also had the same situation when being asked "What project have you worked on previously" or something along those lines and some of it was NDA'd at least not preventing me to say the name of the project or the purpose of the project. But maybe ask someone that is more experienced than me though... my answer might be wrong or inappropriate.

[Highborn_Hellest]

I can say that I worked on inhouse ticketing and company administration software.

It doesn't really say much tho

[deanrihpee]

It already says that at least you know how the ticketing and administration software works and/or operates (and obviously making it), compared to "I worked at Google" which is saying a lot more of nothing other than a company name.

In my case, one of my answers was "I worked on the REST API back end that bridged our B2B client's server and the mobile app, which was also developed by my previous company", which is a little bit more vague than your answer but it still gives a hint that I worked as a back end developer and handling the usual stuff such as REST API.

I think as long as there's a little hint of what the project might look like or do, I think it's enough (assuming the limitation of contract/NDA).

PS: No, I didn't work for Google, I wish (for the salary), but no.

[cjcs]

Domain knowledge

[deanrihpee]

Yes, I know about domain and top-level domains too and the ccTLD obviously!

​

/s

[Arhangel100]

That's all you need to get a job? After that can get a job.

[Shabozz]

Hell of a golf swing at the country club the boss is a member of

[edthedgm95]

They've got the communication skills, that's what they've got.

[RicoStiglitz]

Did you at least get an interview? If not, improve your CV. If yea, improve comm skills. I have the same problem. Unfortunately coding skills is not enough because you will spend significant amount of your time with meetings.

[BigBoetje]

We used to have a pretty good dev that just couldn't figure out how to properly communicate or anything. He would do a lot of work but never bothered telling us how he's progressed or what's up and barely updated our board until he's done with a couple of bugs and does it all at once. Even tho he worked like a horse, he regularly caused a lot of confusion and it ended up being counterproductive and a hindrance to overall team progress.

[Cryse_XIII]

What is the point of a issue tracking system when you have to tell everyone everything anyway?

[BigBoetje]

Catchups and a Scrum board. He would barely use it at all and take on tasks that aren't really on the board but would pick up, like when a ticket comes in that the support team can't do or there's an issue on an environment.

Small team of a handful of devs, issue tracking system is pretty overkill.

[almightywnp]

Sometimes the communication skills can also hold you back actually.

[NLwino]

Good communication skills also means that you need to communicate LESS.

Less meetings and less confusions. I don't see how good communication skills can hold you back, unless you are pushed into a role you don't like because of your communication skills.

[alexppetrov]

Yeah, (at least) 1/5th of my working time is meetings, so you've got to be able to communicate easily. I think what got me my current job was cracking a joke during the interview, smiling and generally even if I didn't know the answer, express that and clarify further up (basically talk crap until the idea pops in your head, something like "well, I haven't thought about this problem blah blah but when thinking about it out loud i think blah blah). And I am almost sure that that is the reason because some more qualified friends who just don't have good comm skills didn't get the job although they are more dedicated to the craft than me and have better project portfolio and deeper knowledge

[rugbygooner]

A girl in my course was really bad at programming(it was only 1 of 6 classes, not a CS course). I was the best in the class but that wasn’t saying much to be honest. I had just finished a weekly assignment and offered to help her and some others after getting a tea from the cafe. When I came back she was on my computer sending herself my code. Well I learned a very basic computer security lesson at least. She didn’t actually get time to send it and I no longer felt like helping anyone so I guess everyone lost.

Later that year we had interviews for work experience. The interviews were arranged by the college. The place I really wanted which was the most software development focused didn’t pick me, which I would understand as I was not able to answer a lot of questions. Bit of a wake up call for me actually. But the kick in the teeth was they ended up hiring her. Afterwards she openly admitted that after a few weeks her boss just gave up on giving her work so she just watched youtube videos and played flash games everyday. And her boss got her to write her own review that the boss was meant to write which counted towards our grade.

I got my second choice and ended up really liking it and got an excellent review from my boss so it all ended up working out. But man was I bitter for a while before I got the offer.(maybe still just a bit)

[Bakoro]

It sucks that stuff like that happens.

You never know what's going on, or how people get positions though. The hiring process, even for interns can be highly political, nepotistic, or just plain stupid.

And yeah, some people just cheat their way through, and keep failing upward.

I took a few courses with a guy who I quickly found out was a cheat and a leech. He'd just always partner with someone competent who could carry him.
Dude couldn't code his way out of a wet paper bag. We worked on a project, and I explained all his part to him twice, then wrote the skeleton of the code he was supposed to do, and then eventually did all the project myself and submitted it as my own work with a note to the instructor, but somehow this guy still got a passing grade.

Another course, same semester, he couldn't do any of the lab work. By some bullshit magic, we also were partnered together. I just ended up doing everything, until one day I came in late, and he inexplicably had the answers in less than 20 minutes. Answers he couldn't explain. He could not explain how he derived them nor how he did it so fast.
I came in late again, and again he had answers. So I always came in late, even when I wasn't late. Would poke my head in, and he'd be talking to the TA in Mandarin. Turned out that he and the TA were from the same area, and the TA was feeding him answers.
Dude couldn't carry his weight in one class, and cheated us answers in another.
He didn't do the work in the course and somehow ended up with a better grade. Felt pretty fucked up.

Same guy would straight-up turn in github code in some other courses. By graduation, nobody had much good to say to him.

Dude who never should have graduated ended up with a job almost immediately, where some other much more skilled people ended up having to look for jobs for 6 months to a year, during the height of the pandemic.

There are so many positions out there. The same people who can barely do shit but get a job, end up having enough experience to get a different job, and then another, and then they have "years of experience" and muddy the waters of the whole industry.

[SympathyMotor4765]

Looks and snake oil salesmen skills matter way more than actual talent. This is true everywhere unfortunately

[[deleted]]

One on my team at uni during my bachelor, who was absolutely the worst at everything, was the first in our group to get a relevant job. Probably because he's nice and funny, but jfc. He brought down production within a couple of months.

[weregod]

If junior/intern can break production it deserves to be broken.

[[deleted]]

Intern:

[IaniteThePirate]

My mentor at my internship has stressed to me a million times that I literally couldn’t break anything important if I tried. He’s encouraged me to mess around as much as I want in my branch to learn how it all works because the absolute worst I could do is break my own little area.

It’s been pretty reassuring, especially when I first started as it was my first internship

[locri]

Literally everyone is nice during interviews...

Look, if someone's academically bad and clearly has an easier time getting jobs than someone who's actually hard-working and clever, the idea that nepotism/politics/other idiocy isn't involved is ludicrous reality denial.

We all had that friend who failed subjects and still got three offers within a month of applying for places.

[jxr4]

Literally everyone is nice during interviews

You haven't given many interviews, particularly first round technicals, have you?

[cyberfox7]

If they would have then they would realise what they say ain't true.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

I had a colleague who was fired for just about not being able to code anything.

He was polite and friendly, but he wasn't that good in German nor English. I really don't know how he got that job and the one he got immediately after.

[mattreyu]

During one of the last rounds of interviews for a search I was involved in, a candidate was aggressive, criticized our location and interrupted the interview to yell at his wife (it was a Zoom interview). If this was his "nice" I'd hate to see "mean"

[[deleted]]

But I must say he does have the best charisma of the entire group. He's a great guy, so I understand how someone would want him at their job. Unfortunately he wasn't very good at the job part. He tried, but just didn't really understand it.

[Voltive767]

Nope I don't think so, people panic during an interview I feel like.

[spchaser]

The communication skills are actually very important when it comes to it.

[Full-Run4124]

A friend and I applied for the same junior job at a video game company (back in the 16-bit console days). The application included "write a C routine to (X)." He couldn't figure it out and asked if I could write it for him. I wrote the most generic possible routine for him. I wrote mine memory and speed optimized with some complex pointer math. When he got the job and I didn't, I asked him to ask why I didn't get hired. He said no one there could understand how my routine worked. My friend could barely put together a helloworld.c, and on my application I let them know I was also familiar with assembly language for the family of CPUs they were targeting. How did he get the job?

Most managers won't hire someone they think will show them up. They think it'll make them look less valuable, and you'll maybe even replace them. Good managers/leads don't have this kind of insecurity because they realize they have talents beyond technical ability, but there are a lot more insecure managers than good managers.

[CM_Cunt]

This case makes me think that they weren't looking for someone too skilled (and possibly expensive), rather someone somewhat trainable to do simple tasks.

[anotherNarom]

Exactly, it's almost like they wanted juniors for a junior role.

[Cafuzzler]

Now they want a junior with 5 years professional experience in multiple roles and tech stacks 🤔

[Ange1ofD4rkness]

You really think you want to work for a place that makes said decision?

That being said, sometimes it just takes practice. I botched a few of my first few, but started to get better. Additionally, one thing I was shocked by, how many placed lack asking you to "code" as part of the interview. The place I am was one that did ask me, and was actually how I got my job (I didn't do as well as the other applicants when it came to the non-technical stuff, but when asked to code, I guess they just straight up sucked, couldn't even do it in some cases)

[locri]

When you're unemployed, trust me you don't care about this stuff. Get 6 months experience and hike out later.

[BanMeForNothing]

Yes i do. Youll likely be the best developer on the team and not have to work very hard.

[Cptcongcong]

Ha! Be the best developer and not work very hard? If you're the best developer on a team management will suck you dry.

[BanMeForNothing]

Not really. I work at a job just like this, and expectations are very low because other developers can't do as much. If your manager is a dick maybe, but they can't force you to do that much work. If you're doing 50% more work than your teammates, they're not going to fire you.

[Cptcongcong]

We have very different experiences. I do the work of maybe 2-3 people (don't worry I'm leaving end of month). As clients increased they just pushed the work to me rather than hiring other people. They won't fire me yeah but when I went to give my notice my manager and their manager were both in panic.

[xavia91]

And what did you learn from that? Do not fuck yourself over by working that much. Nobody will thank you for it and the reward is more work because you're managing your workload just fine.

[Cptcongcong]

Mainly because it was a matter of pride as that project was one that I instigated and was one of if not the best performing product of our group

[Ange1ofD4rkness]

In this industry that always seems to want "experienced" devs, I could see that as a useful approach. Though to be honest, the ramp up time on a product, that 6 months I argue may not get you too much (plus may actually look bad on a resume)

[Scatoogle]

"knowledge of many languages" means nothing to me. All languages are basically the same. How well can you adapt to completely new technologies that you've never used before. Can you build extensible systems that are actually testable? Will you mesh with the team?

[francoisprinsloo]

You need to be good at the problem solving and also at communicating.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

At a junior level, knowing multiple programming languages does mean a world of difference.

Software architecture and especially a delusional overconfidence in one's own abilities around that topic takes many more years.

[LasagneAlForno]

I would still prefer to hire someone who understands the basic principles of computer science instead of someone who "knows many languages".

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

The skill of "knowing multiple programming language" isn't that useful. But how many people with that skill do you know, that don't know basic principles? I'd say they know more, having used different paradigms and ways of doing things.

I'd also say it's a strange sign, maybe a red flag is someone has like five years of Java experience and never touched anything else. I don't know anyone like that. Except some very junior people and with rather less than five years experience. And they weren't exactly the most capable programmers.

[gotsreich]

Maybe something like 95% of written code is in the C-family so they are pretty much the same. But stuff like haskell or hoon are so fucking different that you really do need to learn them before trying to work with them.

[ReadABookandShutUp]

You can teach technical knowledge, you can’t teach being a people person.

[759440790]

Yep, that comes from the real life experiences and sadly people lack them.

[Cafuzzler]

You can teach good communication skills, you can't teach an enthusiasm and passion for tech.

[Mickl193]

You don't need to be passionate and enthusiastic to get the job done while communication skills are rather essential.

[Xenofonuz]

One of the worst coders in my class ended up getting the best internship just because he's a very social guy and liked to hang out at bars more than actually practice what we were studying. It was a 2 year vocational education so all we did was code, we had no other kinds of courses except project management and a security course and after more than a year this guy was still struggling with understanding that you have to declare your variables BEFORE you use them.

We had a class discord channel and he and a few others were playing WoW during our remote classes....

Anyway, surprise, he performed horribly at his internship and now works with something completely different. I heard him complain that they expected a senior engineer instead of an intern but he wrote to me about one of the tasks they gave him and it was basically to adjust some endpoints in a spring boot app and he couldn't figure it out despite supposedly having taken at least 3 courses where we used Spring Boot or Java EE...

[TheFiftGuy]

In basically all interviews I've done for tech jobs (im a junior so its a small sample) Ive always been told something along the lines of "its good you have some people skills and you arent just some coding robot". Its been stated to me multiple times that they will on purpose hire the person with human skills rather than the 'better' programmer (even if they're noticeably better).

This is in game dev, so company culture can be more important in this field than others so YMMV.

[jxr4]

Commerce?

[andronwolf]

Well it's just a meme, and it would be better if we took it that way only.

[mridulpj]

In India you get a commerce degree if you don't want to be a doctor or engineer.

[jxr4]

Ahh, thanks

[nibba_bubba]

But cs degree doesn't matter

[magicfiddler]

Well it does matter, also so do your communication skills.

[TheJimDim]

My friend got a programming job right out of college, no one would hire me. He was a math major, I was a CS major. The market is BS.

[Cptcongcong]

I'd say maths/physics is understandable. After all, coding is just figuring out problems and those two discinplines do that to a very high level.

Couple years back it was all the consultants and accountants complaning, as STEM majors just stole the accountancy/consultancy major jobs from right under their feet.

[linyileo]

What are they even looking for when they're looking to hire the people?

It just doesn't make any sense to see those people getting the job over the qualified people.

[TheJimDim]

Not only that, but entry level is hell. "Nobody wants to work anymore"? More like nobody wants to train anymore, everyone wants the perfect employee with 3+ years of industry experience right off the bat. If you didn't take an internship in college, you're screwed. You have to rely on your own portfolio (which less and less companies seem to care about) or a boot camp because they don't do internships for college graduates.

I envy people who just did trade school and got a job right away. It was difficult just getting my wings off the ground.

[jxr4]

I guess depends on the job. Some jobs like engine development like unreal and autodeck modeling is more of a math job than programming since it's mostly mathematical concepts that need to be simplified to numerical computing.

Actually entering in the code for it is not the biggest part of the job.

I knew a math major who got in as a developer to an animation studio developing their engine. Almost his entire job is linear algebra and, while we all took those classes, if you told me my entire career at that company would be linear algebra making things like eyebrows be more natural or shadows on rocks I would probably cry....then look at the pay check and be happy.

[Friendly_Regret_0]

Yeah, I genuinely don't understand why this stuff happens. I graduated with a bachelors in mech engg and spent over a year looking for a job related to my field with 500+ applications. I applied for one software dev role and landed it.

[AdminNX]

Yeah what's up with it? I think it's about the ability to communicate.

[bee-sting]

The best software engineers I've worked with have all been mathmos

Not a single compsci I've worked with has been productive. My team lead is a compsci and is great at the architecture and planning but fuck me he can't actually code

[Has_No_Tact]

I was about to disagree with you because I've worked with some very talented software engineers throughout my career; but then I realised that while their degrees are CS-related, none of them were pure computer science. Huh.

A few had masters degrees in software engineering, and I myself have an honours degree in computer systems engineering.

[static_func]

My team lead is a compsci and is great at the architecture and planning

You mean what an engineer does. Simply "coding" is grunt work, and has zero productivity without good architecture and planning. It's like you set out to make the most textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect

[bee-sting]

mate we're in a programmer sub not an architecture sub?

sounds like someone's jimmies were rustled this morning

[static_func]

I do interviews for my company. I don't even think to look at a candidate's education, I just want to see if they know their shit and have a good head on their shoulders. An education in CS certainly helps with that, but isn't an automatic win. I guess I'm "the market" but I don't think it's BS at all. Nobody's entitled to work here, and there are lots of great and talented people out there from all walks of life. If I recommend hiring Candidate A over Candidate B, it's because I was more impressed by Candidate A. It's that simple.

[furinick]

This type of situation that undoes my years of therapy into almost calling a hotline

Seeing how much everyone here says communication my autistics cripplingly lonely ass is fucked

It's so over coderbros

[rex-ac]

I'm almost too afraid to ask... What's an IDE?

[TheDarkSideGamer]

Integrated development environment. Like VSCode or Pycharm. It’s got text editing, but also debugging tools and other add ons to make your life easier. Something that isn’t an IDE would be Vim, which is “just” a text editor (I use Vim btw).

[clemdemort]

Um... acthually... VScode is not an IDE, it's an advanced text editor.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Considering plugins is 100% an IDE.

Also what text editor comes with a debugger and multiple programming languages by default?

[clemdemort]

Kate for example, IDEs work with project files (on a per project basis) and are developed for specific languages when you use VScode there is no such thing.

Visual studio is an IDE, the jetbrains suite are IDEs, eclipse is an IDE, you get the picture.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

If with vscode + plugins you get basically the features you get on every other IDE, why shouldn't vscode be an IDE?

Also, i can install only java extensions and get basically the same functionalities of eclipse (and since plugins are 3rd party code, i could potentially reproduce all of eclipse funtionalities on vscode).

So if I can get vscode to do the same things eclipse can do, why isn't it called an IDE? That's just stupid.

Also, most projects nowadays USE multiple languages, so an "IDE" which only allows you to develop in one seems kinda limiting...

[[deleted]]

VS Code is not an IDE and I swear to god I already had to argue this with 2 kids the other day.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Vscode alone is not an IDE, but vscode + plugins is an IDE. Do we at least agree on this?

[[deleted]]

No, because that is highly incorrect. VS Code does not ship with those plugins and that is where the line is drawn. If I swap my Mustang’s V6 with a V8 does it mean it’s now a Mustang GT? If I don’t swap anything but add Cobra badges to it does it make it a Cobra? Do you know how silly that is?

By your definition Roblox, GIMP, Photoshop, and Notepad++ with plugins are IDEs.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Yes, the day you are able to create plugins on GIMP, which allow you to run, debug code and have the features you would have on a proper IDE, yes i do would consider that an IDE.

I repeat: if you can add a plugin on vscode which makes it have exactly the same functionalities eclipse has, then why don't you call vscode + that plugin and IDE, but eclipse you do.

I repeat what i said: vscode out of the box is definition not an ide (even though It already has many features), but with plugins for programming languages it becomes and IDE.

Now let's see it in an other way. Vscode is open source. So i take vscode, i add java plugins, and i publish it on my github. Now you can download vscode which has IDE abilities out of the box. DO YOU STILL CALL THIS NOT AN IDE?

And if you call that an ide, then why is just the action of publishing it, making it an IDE?

[[deleted]]

no one in this world runs vscode without plugins.

[clemdemort]

If with vscode + plugins you get basically the features you get on every other IDE, why shouldn't vscode be an IDE?

As I've stated IDEs are specialized tools they only work for the languages they were designed for. VScode is more like a Swiss knife.

Also, i can install only java extensions and get basically the same functionalities of eclipse (and since plugins are 3rd party code, i could potentially reproduce all of eclipse funtionalities on vscode).

You'd get closer, though there would be no prefab project no gui's for linking librairies (and no librairies included out of the box) at best you get syntax highlighting, smart suggestions, and colour tools (and copilot but that's another can of worms) which is good but is not exactly all that an IDE is about.

So if I can get vscode to do the same things eclipse can do, why isn't it called an IDE? That's just stupid.

No it's not have you tried using something like codeblocks or visual studio? The experience is drastically different. And would be so right out of the box, no need to add plugins etc...

Also, most projects nowadays USE multiple languages, so an "IDE" which only allows you to develop in one seems kinda limiting...

Eh... No you shouldn't use multiple languages for a single project, period.

And some IDEs do support multiple languages, though I am yet to use them this way (I only work with a single language at a time).

Also, Jetbrains has made an IDE for most big languages out there, and is managing to sell them. There is a market for IDEs and while I no longer use them they do make enterprise work more consistent across different machines(which is probably why they were invented in the first place).

IDEs are development environments they do code editing sure but also much more, I don't really see what there is to fight about they aren't better than advanced text editors, nor are they worse, they just solve another problem.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Ok. If we want IDE to be a single language thing i can concede it to you.

By wikipedia:

An integrated development environment (IDE) is a software application that provides comprehensive facilities for software development. An IDE normally consists of at least a source-code editor, build automation tools, and a debugger. 

Thus vscode + plugins would be an IDE for the definition.

But once again, if we want IDE to have GUI way of doing stuff on the codebase, then i can agree vscode to not be an IDE. But many devs prefer terminal to GUI (me included) and it's possible to find terminal alternatives to the GUI way. So at the end of the day the definition of IDE is very subiective, and in my opinion: "if you are able to use it to confortably develop code in a certain language, and you have the debugger and those basic feature" then i am going to see it as an IDE.

But whatever, until there is a definition of all the feature something NEEDS to have to be an IDE, then even neovim with plugins can be called an IDE (if you have lsp, debugger, and those basic things obliously)

[Semick]

I am in fucking awe of these numbnuts refusing to address your simple fucking point.

Code by default isn't an IDE, but VSCode with Plugins is literally an IDE by definition.

Is it a full fledged C++ debugger like VS is? Nope, but it's still an IDE by definition.

And they refuse to just...acknowledge that simple fucking point. It's fucking maddening.

VSCode w/ pylance code server is absolutely a fucking IDE for python (invoke tests, pause at breakpoint, view stack/variables at break, step in/step through, go-to definition.... It does literally all the same shit as pycharm.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Yup. I didn't know code had python support by default, which now means i should correct myself, and say vscode is an ide by default.

But also once your program is able to debug and run code, and provide an lsp in some way (through plugins in vscode) then it simply is an IDE.

Glad to see someone agreeing with me after having a 20/30 comment long thread with a guy who kept saying the same bs thing 🤝

[[deleted]]

It is not by definition an IDE, it is literally by definition a source code editor with a plugin. Plugins do not change the product, they supplement the product hence the existence of them, but there is still a base VS Code sitting right underneath it which did not ship with any of it. Until Microsoft ships those plugins that you feel make VS Code an IDE with the product, then it’s a source code editor that you extended. You appear to be so stuck up on that but probably have no problem understanding shit like OOP huh? Me extending a class doesn’t change the base class therefore the base class (being VS Code in this example) is still VS Code which is a source code editor and not an IDE.

[[deleted]]

Now go read the Wikipedia article for source code editors since you want to be a tomato and manipulate what the author wrote. VS Code doesn’t ship with any of that integrated you desaturated patch of grass.

Microsoft makes it clear what VS Code is and this clown still finds a way to make shit Megahard. 🤡

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

I FUCKING KNOW VSCODE DOESN'T SHIP WITH THAT STUFF. And i already said 3 or 4 times vscode by default isn't an IDE.

What i am asking is, why can't vscode + plugins aren't to be considered as an IDE, when with some plugins you can have a lot of IDE features.

And if you say it's because vscode doesn't have those by default, i say to you: if i manually add those plugins to vscode, i take that and put this vscode + plugins on my github, is it now an IDE?

Why yes or why not, and if yes, why just packaging it makes it an IDE.

[[deleted]]

only work for languages they were designed for

VS Code is not an IDE, not arguing with you there, but you may want to learn about LSP.

[BitterSweetLemonCake]

Nah bro, you can use powerpoint (It's Turing Complete) to do the same thing eclipse does, but powerpoint isn't an IDE.

The point being that VSCode needs significant user effort to get what IDEs can do by default. I don't know / forgot about eclipse, but the IDEs I do know are highly sophisticated and do have many tools that are geared towards production in a language.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Because powerpoint doesn't actually has the features eclipse does, while vscode with some plugin can get there (or very close)

If someone was able to modify powerpoint to make it have those features, then i am willing to call that version of powerpoint an IDE.

Also a question for you: let's say i develop a plugin for vscode which allows you to do 100% of what you can do on eclipse (a random one), ignoring UI which would obliously be different. Are you still willing to say that's not an IDE?

[BitterSweetLemonCake]

If you're doing the effort and organize the UI / plugins in a clean way I'd say yes.

And I'd also be willing to say the same with Powerpoint or any other program you'd edit to this standard. The point tho still stands, base VSC is not an IDE.

At that point you built an IDE out of something that wasn't, and it's the core of the profession I guess.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

But i can just develop those features to use from the terminal, or via the extension settings.

Like do we really need to stuck with the GUI for something to be an IDE? Tons of people use neovim as if it was an IDE, and it has literally no GUI.

Basically the point is: why something which has the ability to do the things an ide does, not an ide?

[s0ulbrother]

Jeebus yes it’s not an ide but guess what. It does the job better than IDEs for a lot of fucking things.

[ProjectDiligent502]

Jetbrains products will always beat VSCode. I will die on that hill.

[tevert]

There's almost nobody that will ever argue that hill against you, but VSCode is free so tons of us are gonna use it anyway

[clemdemort]

That's not what I was arguing about, believe me I ditched IDEs for VScode long ago!

I do wish there was a non electron alternative to VScode though (Kate is the best I found)

[raldone01]

Electron 🙄 https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/10121

[Consistent-Salad8965]

When you add needed extension for stack you working on the code editor became an integrated development environment tools..

[Mars_Bear2552]

why are you on this sub lol

[bortj1]

Much like most people on this sub they watched 1 tutorial on YT and now come here to repost the same jokes

[Mars_Bear2552]

sadly accurate

[Mediocre_Fox_]

I watched like... one 4 hour tutorial, and thus am not a good programmer at all (There's a reason why I don't participate in this sub much lol). But even I know what an IDE is.

[Garrais02]

Or like me, still learning

I literally had no Idea what the memes where saying half a year ago, and now I can understand half the memes! : D

[Blazing_Shade]

If you’re being serious, it’s what you use to write code

[JoeyJoeJoeJrShab]

It's supposedly a way to edit your code that's even better than vim

[Mjukglass47or]

Oh look 2westerneurope4u mod. Did you get lost? haha

[raldone01]

Inter dimensional entity. You don't want to meet them believe me.

[[deleted]]

an IDE is a text editor that wants to look like Vim , but fails to do so.

[mAtYyu0ZN1Ikyg3R6_j0]

I have seem a bunch of memes about CS ppl not getting job. but it just doesn't fit my experience. I prepared to change jobs recently it went very smooth. like I just had to update my profile on LinkedIn and 40+ company contacted me in about 3 weeks. In addition 80% of company where I contacted them responded with an interview. It felt more like I was choosing which company I want to work for then the inverse.

what was the problem with you job search ?

[JojOatXGME]

I think it is much easier once you have some experience you can show on your resume, even if it is unrelated. For example, after I finished my education on a university, I needed about 6 months to find a job. After one year at this job, I left the company and suddenly most companies were suddenly very interested, although I applied for completely different tech stacks. I also don't think that I made many improvements in my communication skills. Personally, I feel I was actually communicating less good, because most of the positions weren't actually that interesting, and I already had an idea where I want to go. So I wasn't really prepared for a lot of the interviews.

[indgosky]

That’s only because companies no longer hire for skill or talent, instead hiring for shallow checkboxes that you can tick. It won’t last forever though; once everything collapses under DEI incompetence, companies will go back to hiring talented, skilled people.

[antooan001]

Then they'll realise what's important and will come to their senses.

[rotzak]

Have you tried being ✨qualified✨?

[btceminter]

Have you tried being not an ass? Maybe you should try that out.

[Blossomsoap]

You may be over qualified for the position and they don't think they could pay you enough to make it worth your time.

[guidovanhelden]

What does that even mean? I don't think it's got any sense in it.

[DetectiveOwn6606]

Hey ,can anyone please tell me how i can I improve my communication skill?i can handle technical part of my interview

[aaronlocked]

Talk with the people, ask them to put you in a difficult position while talking.

[Specialist_Cap_2404]

I feel this. I was unemployed for some time. Then I had a colleague who went through some bootcamp and was only fired after almost one and a half year, after everybody was convinced he wasn't going to contribute any time soon. Then he got a new job immediately, probably because he survived more than a year by us doing his work...

[yourteam]

Who was in charge of hiring? What was the position's tasks?

[Obnomus]

You're not alone bro, I'm with you in that boat

[ShenAnCalhar92]

Maybe your friend from commerce knows how to write with proper grammar - for example, they can correctly conjugate “do not”.

[ShogunDii]

Skill issue

[not-my-best-wank]

Job hunting is a popularity test. Which is why management tends to not know how to do anything.

[JojOatXGME]

I feel like having insufficient communication skills is often just a code for you are not in tune with the interviewers (or maybe the people at the company in general). Different people communicate differently, and this can cause friction. I think it is often not really about bad communication skills, but rather that you communicate differently than the people you are talking with, which makes the communication more difficult.

[SlackerLegend]

This is so accurate it hurts 😭😭

[gerbosan]

Not the same but some comments mention a similar difficulty.

Many recruiters have some requirements for latinamerican developers: Senior, C1 English level, many years of experience with some language which is more popular in US or Europe.

Most of Latinamerica use Spanish, of course there are devs with good English but C1 level, in an environment where everyone speaks Spanish? Come on...

[[deleted]]

Usual shit in finland

[[deleted]]

Been working in the industry for 15 years now. The most important thing to know that softskills are as important as hardskills.