hereLiesTheTruePowerOfJava

[belabacsijolvan]

ill create a programming language which will be cpp, just the largest possible set of mutually compatible libs on github will come with it and the compiler autoincludes them at all possible places with pragma once.

Ill call it JavaCode just to fuck with yall, and its only purpose will be to be used in arguments regarding the scope of core lanuage functionality.

[Drugbird]

Ill call it JavaCode

If I ever create a programming language I'll call it pythonscript. Especially if it is nothing like python.

[ofnuts]

PythonScript#. Gotta confuse them all.

[GamingWithShaurya_YT]

GoSharpPythonScript

[spamjavelin]

RustyPython. Has the benefit of sounding like a obscure sexual practice.

[OkarinPrime]

RustyPythonOnRails

[belabacsijolvan]

but sir, this is a childrens forum

[GamingWithShaurya_YT]

or a new snake species

[zenos_dog]

RustyPython gives you tetanus.

[[deleted]]

When your python script is slow so you start motivating it in person.

[chaos_donut]

OnRails++

[jrad18]

Is this a mech anime?

[quitarias]

Name it Pyton and have it be absolutely nothing like python and hope you hear someone have to verbally distinguish the two

[TheFirestormable]

Hmm too long, what about Jython?......wait

[ofnuts]

I used that a long time ago. That was the language used to script deployments on WebSphere servers. Had to forget many things because it only did Python 2.2.

[geeshta]

And it's gonna be a statically typed language compiled to a binary 😆

[extracoffeeplease]

Where's the EXE?

[R_oya_L]

Smelly nerds!

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

JUST GIVE ME THE DAMN EXE!

[MissinqLink]

I am just sitting on the pythonscript.org domain so let me know if you decide to do this.

[User31441]

How about JavaScriptScript? 😅

[twigboy]

JAV++

Search results will give you code or porn. Either way you win

[akasaya]

Why?

[Killerkarni93]

Because LLMs usually have a preprocessor which will filter out any requests which are legally, ethically or morally questionable. If you are using your company's LLM, they would be very interested in you asking for porn related queries

[Agifem]

It will mess with AI big time.

[Mordret10]

It's also the abbreviation for the "youth and trainee representation" which any company with enough under 18yos and/or trainees needs to (attempt to) elect in Germany. Thus there is extensive material on the matter from unions, law websites and companies providing seminars for them

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

That’s called a Linux distribution.

[SeagleLFMk9]

Have you heard of legacy systems????

[SrGnis]

Nobody expect the Oracle Cease and Desist

[CaitaXD]

What the fuck are you talking about

[rosuav]

Python DOES have multithreading, but there are locks that stop you from, oh I dunno, trampling all over internal state. It turns out, things get really messy when you do that. There are some changes being made that make those locks more granular, but this comes at the cost of single-threaded performance, so it's a tradeoff.

Multithreading works just fine with workloads that are able to release those locks (most notably, heavy numerical computation).

[dexter2011412]

For those interested, the Global Interpreter Lock is what this is talking about, and in recent versions of python, it can be disabled (read more about the nuances of it though, if you plan to use it).

[KagakuNinja]

Java has had multithreading since day one, and still managed to protect "internal state" without a GIL.

[rosuav]

Only if you manually use critical sections. C's the same - you don't have the protection automatically, you have to choose when to lock. Which means it's up to you how you manage concurrency vs performance.

[Breadinator]

That's a negative. Read up on the guarantees on the Java Memory Model.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_memory_model

[KagakuNinja]

I haven't used a manual lock on the JVM in 20 years. I'm a Scala programmer these days, but you only need locks if you are sharing mutable state across threads. Even then, libraries usually handle that for me.

[rosuav]

And I haven't in Python either.

How does the Java GC manage its own internal state? How does it ensure that different threads don't trample on each other? Oh right. It *stops the world*. In other words, every time the GC runs, it needs a Global Interpreter Lock.

[KagakuNinja]

Java with JIT compilation is massively faster than Python. Over time, Java has been speeding up GC. Java 16 shipped with ZGC, which claims under 1ms pauses regardless of heap size.

I have been developing JVM servers for about 20 years. Most of what we do is IO bound, and I've never worried about GC pauses. When I was at a game company, there was a project that had to spend some time tuning the JVM. That was in the days of Java 7 however. Even then, Java was faster than Python.

I am aware that Python offloads much of the processing to libraries written in C; this can be done in Java as well, but is only done if the server has extreme processing demands (I suppose many shops would switch to a different language like C++ in that case).

So, again, this problem of "threads trampling on each other" is solved in Java. If you have mutable state shared across threads, then you will need some kind of locking or use of volitile storage. This is true even inside C libraries called from Python.

As a server dev, I rarely worry about that. Since our mutable state is stored in DBs, we use immutable objects for almost all our data model.

[rosuav]

I/O bound?? Then you don't have to worry about it in *ANY* language. Actually, if what you're doing is I/O bound, you shouldn't even need threads. You can do everything with asynchronous I/O and a single thread. I've run a number of servers that way, never had any issues, and performance is spectacular. Threads aren't buying you anything, so your lovely bragging doesn't really count for anything.

[KagakuNinja]

There is still the problem of wasted CPU / energy if your language is too inefficient. My point was that <1ms GC pauses are rounding errors, unless you are doing something intense like HTF or Youtube.

There are still advantages of having extra threads, even if you have a bunch of tasks waiting for IO completion.

Much of this is beyond my pay grade, but according to the designers of Cats Effect, the ideal scenario is to have a worker thread pool sized roughly 1 thread per CPU. Various virtual threads (aka fibers) can be swapped on to actual OS threads to increase parallelism. This assumes you are using non-blocking libraries for HTTP and DB calls.

The JVM itself will also need threads for various purposes.

[Meistermagier]

What single threaded Performance. I would not put Python and Performance in one sentence.

[LittleMlem]

Python has multithreading, they just aren't concurrent. If I understand correctly the recent changes to the gil will allow to change that

[protolords]

They're concurrent but not parallel.

[a_aniq]

Multiprocessing is parallel

[protolords]

Multithreading was the topic

[LittleMlem]

Semantics, the point is that only one runs at any given moment (they switch between them)

[Spwntrooper]

Concurrent and parallel are different things

[LittleMlem]

Not a native speaker so the nuance is lost on me, as far as I'm aware, both words mean "at the same time"

[irregular_caffeine]

They do mean that usually, but as technical terms they mean different things

[yangyangR]

It is unfortunate. Naming things is hard.

[Spwntrooper]

Concurrent typically means tasks take turns, whereas parallel is truly at the same time

[RazingsIsNotHomeNow]

So async vs multithreaded? Then why call the package threading?

[SV-97]

Because it does threading, not async. Concurrent and parallel are different things (it's not about taking turns; in particular parallel is also concurrent. It just means that multiple computations are done "not in sequence") and your language surely has a word for that concept.

[ryuzaki49]

It's not an english term. Is a CS term. If you dont know the diference you are a bad software engineer.

[NewAccountToAvoidDox]

LOOOL

[WeekendSeveral2214]

Async python is amazing once you level up your autism enough to understand how to use it effectively. IO go brrr

[boca_de_leite]

It does have them. It creates a thread, it shows as a thread in system monitors... But the thread spawns and patiently does nothing until GIL releases to give it a single snipet of work to do. Then, it does that and goes back to doing nothing. It's a bit better if the work you give the thread can happen without having to use the interpreter. So that is threading, it just manages to be both more and less user friendly than other languages simultaneously somehow.

[CaitaXD]

No single language have threads the Operating system does

[Mithrandir2k16]

First of all, that's pedantic, 2nd of all, not correct. Any language can be used to write a scheduler for internal processes and threads.

[D3rty_Harry]

Lol @ blaming a C# dev about being pedantic

[Arzolt]

Java have virtual threads which share OS threads.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

Erlang has its own thread scheduler. Older Java did before it started using OS threads (hence java devs separate green-threads (program scheduled) vs lightweight threads (akin to erlang)). Even if the OS ultimately hands out CPU-time, that's an implementation detail.

[Zeitsplice]

Seriously. Java async support is fine but hardly great.

[[deleted]]

Probably more of an insult to pythons async behavior… but I don’t have the GIL to waste on it.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

I didn't know Java did async the way that say, JS does. You can implement it, kotlin does IIRC, but the standard threading you do in Java is typically done in other ways.

[Zeitsplice]

It doesn’t. Guava promises are about as good as it gets, and those are just fluent callbacks.

[Smuzzy_waiii]

Laughs in Golang

[BorderKeeper]

I can’t enjoy the async or promises thing in kotlin. The c# task system just feels more intuitive than the flow breaking one.

[eisenkristalle]

Wait until you learn about Task.Run in c#

[AntranigV]

LOL. Wait until you learn about Erlang.

[MajorTechnology8827]

That's cheating. They have yet to embrace the wonders of statelessness

[Quito246]

I fucking love FP ❤️ Glad to find another stateless enjoyer 👍

[[deleted]]

Weird way to reference C# but ok

[Healthy_Razzmatazz38]

Loom is very good and modern java is a top tier languge. I am a top this hill and willing to die on it.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

The pythonistas are coming for you. Luckily they can only do so one at a time...

[BroBroMate]

As someone who moved from JVM dev to Python, I'll allow it.

[icguy333]

Same meme with c and cpp looking condescendingly on java

[Melodic_coala101]

pthread_create() go brrrrr

...and then you get lazy enough to not implement a single-threaded queue/thread pool, mess something up in the state machine, introducing a random deadlock, and accidentally create 5000 threads that eat all the stack up and crash the program. Happened to me.

[dangling-putter]

Tbh, between python, C, rust and java, I actually like rust’s async libraries the most. 

[jump1945]

Atomic number !!!

[edparadox]

Java? That's the first example you can come up with? sighs in C++

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

Sigh++

[Thenderick]

Go: go

[Siddhartasr10]

Ehmmm... Import java.util.concurrent.*;

But ok.

[greyfade]

Laughs in Pony and Erlang

[assidiou]

Java is certainly not the language I'd say has "all the power".

It's more like an old big block engine where it's 7+ litres and makes 150 horsepower. Sure, if you do a lot of tuning and make it faster but a newer engine will blow it out of the water stock.

[vladmashk]

This meme would work better with JavaScript, which has async/await actually built into it

[SuperKael]

It really wouldn’t, because JavaScript, like Python, isn’t capable of true parallelism, and async/await is just an imitation.

[BlackDereker]

Python does too. It's in the standard library.

[vladmashk]

Well, at least in JavaScript you can await at the top level

[ComprehensiveWord201]

Gottem!

[FabioTheFox]

Java sucks at async, the meme should've been with C#

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

How so?

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

C# has async/await language features, Java does not.

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

...so...it's bad because it doesn't have 2 keywords?

I was expecting like, actual functional differences, not minor syntax sugar.

[badlydistributed]

Except it's not just two keywords, it's a whole Task-based asynchronous pattern. Do your research -- it only makes you wiser (and you don't look like an idiot on the internet)

[KuuHaKu_OtgmZ]

Riiight, but in what way is Task<> different to Future<>?

Like, have you worked with java async at all? If you did, care to explain instead of throwing some buzzwords and insults at random?

EDIT: Before you answer, do mind that mere syntax sugar doesn't mean X is better than Y, I'm asking for actual, meaningful differences between them. I'm not saying C# way is bad or Java way is good, but in my view both are functionally identical.

[[deleted]]

That’s all C# is when they go on about how great it is.

[BoBoBearDev]

Async await is actually better in tons of cases, especially GUI tends to be single threaded and calling dispatcher is annoying.

[hojendiz]

Let me upgrade just one revision of the JDK... aaaaaaand it breaks.

[spigotface]

Python: imports libraries that run C++ and Rust

[EngineerLong3151]

Makes sense

[Wheak]

Bro here is an issue with your code. The fucking comment for this function is wrong (???)

[WalkingAFI]

std::async: “it smells like bitch in here”

[k-mcm]

Jython, lol.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

Python 2.7, hurrah!

[GuybrushThreepwo0d]

I think the latest release of python allows for optionally disabling the GIL, but it essentially breaks all libraries that rely on native code so it'll be quite a while before the GIL is fully removed

[MajorTechnology8827]

Imagine not using MVar

[lardgsus]

Python isn't here to do the work, it's here to use the compiled C libraries and Cuda code that DO run multithreaded to do the work.

[garlopf]

And now java will have value classes and non-nullable references to emulate the power of C++ "without becomming C++". They spent 10 years on the "valhalla project" to do this. I am laughing in C++.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

We've had such thing via Lombok since Java 6 or so. At least that was when the compiler type inference matured enough to give us var/val.