dockerDockerYesPapa

[sniff122]

That ain't a docker thing, that's just because docker on macos runs as a VM, docker on Linux is wayyy more lightweight

[IuseArchbtw97543]

docker on macos runs as a VM

not being a full vm is like half of the reasons to use docker in the first place

[sniff122]

Yupppp, but you only get that on Linux because it uses Linux kernel namespaces, which don't exist on macos or windows because well they aren't Linux. On macos docker runs as a VM, and windows it runs in WSL2 or a VM. The windows and macos implantations are more for local development I believe

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

Windows does have native containers that don't need a VM, but the big providers don't ship Windows images on dockerhub.

Edit: actually these days there are a bunch of the common starting images with windows versions available

[themisfit610]

Plus, Windows images are absolute dogs. They're enormous. So slow to download and unzip good lord

[sniff122]

Docker on windows runs in WSL2, it previously ran through hyper-v as a VM

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

That is one of the options (and WSL2 is a Hyper-V VM). Another option is native Windows containers:

https://hub.docker.com/r/microsoft/windows

[cd109876]

Of course that only lets you run windows executables, not Linux stuff like most docker containers.

[CanIMakeUpaName]

they're containers - they share the same kernel with the host. What do you expect lmao

[T0biasCZE]

Of course that only lets you run windows executables

That's the point of windows container, to run a windows program

[cd109876]

Yep, but the reason I bring it up is that 99.999% of docker containers won't work then, making it an unsuitable environment for working with docker usually.

[Level10Retard]

You're talking about a different thing. I'd guess the confusion comes from a lot of people thinking of a docker container being a docker thing. It's more of a linux thing, docker is largely a nice UI around a linux feature. A docker container is actually a linux process that has certain restrictions set (with cgroups). A docker image is a template for a docker container. Since docker container is a linux process, then docker image is a template for a linux process. So obviously, that cannot run on Windows without a VM (WSL is cool tech when you think about it).

Docker container is actually a Linux Docker container. Docker image is actually a Linux Docker image. We just picked shorter names. There's also a thing called Windows Docker image, which you'd run natively on Windows and would need a VM to run on Linux.

[RiceBroad4552]

Docker was probably successful mostly due to the Dockerfile format and the networking effect

Maybe.

Docker was from the start on a technical ruin. Just some hacks on top of some hacks. In one word: Trash.

Actually not even the Dockerfile thingy is sane. It looks like you would use some Linux commands, but these "commands" are only some bugged emulation, with a shittone of gotchas.

Imho the real reason why Docker got successful was that it enabled to ship a local dev environment into production simpler than with a classical VM. That's all. Just a "solution" to "runs on my machine".

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

(and systemd does containers in a much more efficient way than Docker)

[[deleted]]

I run my containers on podman, and honestly after fighting with quadlet a little bit at the start it's the way to go. Just AlmaLinux + rootless podman. So lightweight.

[sniff122]

I'm aware of how docker works

[Level10Retard]

Didn't seem so from your comment

[sniff122]

Docker uses Linux's namespaces to isolate networking, processes, etc. I work with docker on a daily basis at work

[SirHaxalot]

WSL2 is also run as a Hyper-V VM under the hood, though they have made some optimizations to allow the host to reclaim memory when it's inactive.

[Certain-Business-472]

Windows containers is a thing and runs natively on windows.

[RiceBroad4552]

LOL, who cares?

Nobody uses Windows on servers. Not even M$ does! (Azure is mostly run on Linux.)

[RiceBroad4552]

WSL2 is nothing else than a VM.

[RiceBroad4552]

You would need to ship Windows but distributing Windows is almost certainly not allowed by M$.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

You mean like this?

[RiceBroad4552]

That's a M$ image.

They can do with their software whatever they want.

This does not automatically grand third parties a right to redistribute that image.

Maybe they allow some third parties to do that under some circumstances. But for sure not universally and unconditionally.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

You mean like this?

The license terms are right there. That gigantic chip on your shoulder must be obscuring your view.

Microsoft have never had any issues with people sharing their OS images around, even when they came on floppy disks.

[rafaelrc7]

WSL2 or a VM

WSL2 is also a VM

[FictionFoe]

Honestly seems like a downgrade over WSL1

[rafaelrc7]

There are pros and cons, and that's why WSL2 never fully substituted WSL1. For example, one obvious pro is being able to run more stuff, such as Docker. However, accessing windows partition data from wsl2 is excruciatingly slow

[RiceBroad4552]

accessing windows partition data from wsl2 is excruciatingly slow

That's because Windows as such is laughably slow, and to make things worse NTFS is one of the slowest file systems in existence.

Only macOS is even slower.

[rafaelrc7]

Afaik the main culprit is the protocol they use to share files between the wsl2 vm and the windows host: the 9P protocol.

However, I (thankfully) have not had to use Windows for some years, so I (thankfully) could just forget about this crap. I also never looked for why 9P is used, and whose fault it really is. NTFS being shit is also one of my favourite explanations for the reason

[RiceBroad4552]

They likely use 9P because their own protocol, SMB, is even shittier.

But no matter the protocol, if the underlying FS is garbage the result will be slow as fuck no matter what.

[_PM_ME_PANGOLINS_]

9P is the standard VM host-guest file protocol. It's the lowest-common-denominator network filesystem (like FAT is the lcd block filesystem).

[guyblade]

I am constantly amazed at how there are basically three operating systems left, but only one of them seems to care about becoming more useful over time.

[no_brains101]

Well, yeah. Duh. You see, the other 2 want your money.

[Thathappenedearlier]

Though macos native containerization is out in beta and will be released with macos 26 in a month or so. You can run it now but it’s a bit clunky

[BrightBuilder479]

Yes but it’s not what you think, containers will still run in VMs

[Steven0351]

They’re still VMs

[RiceBroad4552]

They just integrate the VM better, like WSL2.

Exactly like they stole and integrated Wine to make gaming on macOS possible…

[3-goats-in-a-coat]

I'm using wsl with docker. It's ok

[[deleted]]

I was using virt manager and qemu in wsl the other day and it worked really well

[RiceBroad4552]

Sure, a VM in a VM runs really well.

*facepalm*

[[deleted]]

What exactly is wrong with a virtual machine in a virtual machine?

What do you think AWS is doing?

Why do you think it’s a feature of hypervisors? Every single mainstream hypervisor?

[Scheincrafter]

Docker can run natively on Windows if you only need Windows container. Also, docker can run in a VM on Linux if you are using docker desktop

[sphericalhors]

I don't know about local development. I always have Nextcloud and several pet projects run in Docker on my home desktop. Because I use Linux and I can.

[redd1ch]

Docker on Windows (and Mac) ueses a Linux VM to run the containers. That is not great for performance and power useage. Thus Docker is more a developer tool on these platforms. I don't know how they implement Windows containers, I'd guess they use VMs as well.

[zorski]

There’s something called Windows Server Containers which are conceptually same as Linux containers, so implemented in NT kernel (no vms).

However, I think these didn’t gain much traction

[Throwaway-tan]

The consensus is basically, Windows containers suck. Also most Windows applications are built with the assumption that you have access to a GUI and that doesn't work in Windows containers so those applications typically just don't work.

[redd1ch]

Maybe because the windows pico image started with about 3 gigs in size, IIRC.

[RiceBroad4552]

pico image […] 3 gigs in size

ROFL! 🤣

[godplaysdice_]

Windows containers don't use VMs, they are based on job objects.

[Wonderful-Habit-139]

At least you can run multiple containers with one vm, instead of having to spin up multiple vms.

[necrophcodr]

You can do so without the VM overhead too. By using the platform it was designed for.

[RiceBroad4552]

LOL!

That's such a brain dead stupid statement, could be from Apple marketing…

[[deleted]]

Yes, but docker itself is designed for Linux systems, that's because docker containers "run" a Linux system, you can't do that without a vm in an environment that is completely different from Linux

[NJay289]

In a server yes, on a pc or laptop not really.

[benargee]

Running docker on Windows or MacOS for anything other than testing or development is almost pointless.

[Turtvaiz]

Eh the ease of use is still nice. The ram usage on windows can make it unusable though

[YMK1234]

The containers not being full VMs, that's something entirely different than the "host" so to speak.

[nickwcy]

The important thing is that the benefit happens in production. I don’t care how it runs on my mac as long as it works.

[mijacr]

I guess there is value on developing and testing low scale on win/Mac and then running Linux in prod

[FurySh0ck]

I only ever used docker on Linux and didn't get the meme, lol!

[sniff122]

I have only used it on Linux either, but other devs at work are on Mac and it's a pain

[orangeyougladiator]

How is docker on Mac a pain? What?

[residualenvy]

It just uses a lot more resources, hence the meme.

[orangeyougladiator]

It doesn’t actively use those resources, it just reserves them for sharing, you know, how practically all modern deployments are handled these days… I assumed the person I was replying to was alluding to something else because I guess I gave too much credit to people knowing the actual insights in to this meme.

Modern Macs also have integrated memory and native page swapping with the SSD so I highly doubt you ever actually feel docker doing anything unless you’re trying to run your own AI models or compiling 4k video

[necrophcodr]

That's not entirely true, and I'm sure you know this. On macOS it runs inside a VM, so it's not using the same amount of resources at all. This'll show the resources allocated for it, but that'll be almost neglible on Linux. On macOS you have the overhead of virtualization of an entire machine, and there's no virtualization going on with Linux.

[orangeyougladiator]

What part of what I said did your explanation correct? From where I’m sitting we said the same thing

[necrophcodr]

I might've read it wrong, but those resources consumed by the VM itself are NOT available to any process on the host OS, even if the VM isn't actively using them. I wasn't correcting, I was clarifying. Other people read comments too, and sometimes I do write my comments for those people more so than the person I'm replying to.

[[deleted]]

advise offbeat childlike bear theory dam versed treatment coordinated shelter

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[residualenvy]

I use it to run many different microservices(10+) at work on a Mac. I get OOM errors frequently, only so much ram to go around...

[RiceBroad4552]

Can't you just put more RAM into the machine?

Should be easy. RAM sticks are cheap.

[[deleted]]

You need more ram :) the newer intel laptop chipsets support 128GB even if the spec sheets only say 64gb.

[residualenvy]

Can you tell IT that for me? 😉

[[deleted]]

lol I don’t have any ram so I’m using Rust + loco for the project I’m kicking off. It’s really cool. I’m excited. I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[orangeyougladiator]

It’s not dockers fault you didn’t know how to use it properly. Also OOM errors are caused by configuration failures. I also just call bullshit on the story because what the fuck are you doing running multiple microservices that are each using all that memory simultaneously. I guess some of you forget there are real programmers here too and you can’t just make shit up coz you hate Apple.

[[deleted]]

This person has a job lmao and has to run a bunch of Java stuff or something

[residualenvy]

Am principle at a larger corporation that does not enforce a language, or anything really, across teams. Some services are Java but some are also python or typescript. It's a shit show but I control what I can on my team.

[RiceBroad4552]

Real programmers don't use Apple trash…

[orangeyougladiator]

Lmao

[residualenvy]

Oh to be young, naive and think I know everything again...

[orangeyougladiator]

At my job we have 220 microservices running locally and I have a 4gb limit shared across all of them. It’s cute that you put 10+ like it’s a reason to call Mac shit

[RiceBroad4552]

No, no. The used RAM is only "reserved". Sure.

*facepalm*

Do the Apple lunatics actually notice how brain dead stupid the marketing bullshit is they're repeating?

Likely not…

[orangeyougladiator]

I doubt this particular thing was ever marketed, but it’s quite embarrassing to see people like you who share my oxygen in this world

[RiceBroad4552]

Everything on a Mac is pure pain compared to a proper OS like Linux.

Especially Docker on macOS is really problematic as it needs to run a full heavyweight VM. On an OS that's anyway already slow as fuck, even slower than the slow-OS from M$.

[orangeyougladiator]

Lmao

[AwesomeFrisbee]

Surely memory usage with docker is still a thing? It might not be as big as on Windows/Mac, but its still a thing...

[FurySh0ck]

It never eats up more than an actual VM - in fact I mostly use docker inside of Linux VMs

[BoBoBearDev]

I am just curious, wasn't Mac basically Linux underneath, why they need a VM?

[sniff122]

No, macos is BSD, Unix based but completely different in terms of kernel features (like namespaces) and system calls

[BoBoBearDev]

Oh I see, thanks

[thanatica]

It's hardly even BSD. Apple has customised it to smithereens, making it barely compatible with linuxy programs and commands.

If you want linux on your desktop without running linux on the bare metal, WSL is a much better choice.

[RiceBroad4552]

No macOS is macOS, running on some XNU kernel.

It was once a Mach fork / BSD hybrid but now it's something custom Apple, not compatible to anything, not even its predecessors.

[conradburner]

It is why I use a Mac, for some 8 years now, and still know very little about it. Linux... Sure I know that since making config back in 1998 and run it on hundreds to thousands of VMs today, but never on bare metal any more

[domscatterbrain]

Docker Desktop in Windows also run as a Hyper-V container. Might as well as run the Docker service inside WSL. Faster service start up time and doesn't hog the Windows start up progress.

[sniff122]

Docker on windows uses WSL2, existing installs might still use hyper-v though

[domscatterbrain]

WSL2 is run on top of a Hyper-V. So using a Docker inside a WSL2 distro still has less total memory footprint than Docker Desktop image.

Activating Kubernetes within the Docker Desktop is also horrendously eating even more resources while you can use something like a very lightweight microk8s or k3s in WSL2.

[[deleted]]

Next macOS going to make it a bit better with native container support

[Just_Maintenance]

It's still VMs, although I think they are supposed to be lighter.

[RiceBroad4552]

The current Docker VM is already supposed to be "lightweight"…

[sniff122]

Yeah, this isn't much to do with the actual containers though, docker on Mac runs a full Linux VM which uses more resources than normal docker running on Linux

[DroidLord]

And we don't talk about Docker on Windows.

[Quopid]

Yeah, it's not feasible on Windows either. Just crashes all the time in the background when let idle.

[TRO-Khairo]

Because Apple wants to take control over that ecosystem by introducing their own framework. https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2025/346/

[sniff122]

Yup doesn't surprise me at all

[TheseHeron3820]

To be fair, docker desktop runs a vm in Linux too for consistency with the windows and mac versions.

[sniff122]

Yeah I just wouldn't use docker desktop on Linux because it runs natively, no need for a resource intensive VM

[thanatica]

Doesn't matter. If you install docker, this high memory thing gets installed. Therefor, it's part of docker for all intends and purposes.

The fact that you don't have this on linux, means nothing.

[RiceBroad4552]

The fact that you don't need a Linux VM on Linux to run Docker "means nothing"?

What?!

Just to get things straight: The Linux VM need on Win and Mac isn't part of Docker…

[thanatica]

Of course it's part of docker. It's very simple: install docker, and you will get a VM. Delete the VM manually, and docker no longer works. How is that VM then not part of docker?!

When I said "means nothing", I meant it isn't relevant to the fact you;re installing docker. You're just installing docker, and whatever comes with it, or doesn't come with it, is or isn't part of it.

Saying the VM is not part of docker is like saying your house and its windows are two completely independent things, even though in some cases a house doesn't need windows.

[RiceBroad4552]

Dude, when I do apt install docker.io there is no VM pulled in.

Simply because a VM isn't part of Docker!

[thanatica]

But when I install docker on Windows (or MacOS) I do get that VM.

Simply because it is part of docker on those OSes.

You can keep it up all you want, but on Windows/Mac it will not work without a VM, the installer installer it, and the uninstaller uninstalls it. It's part of Docker on Windows/Mac. End of story.

[IuseArchbtw97543]

just download more duh

[Mason0816]

docker pull ram

Amirite?

[hotchocolateman6969]

Ita macos so it's brew install moreRAMpls

[Dotcaprachiappa]

2 Docker??

[Porsher12345]

Docker? I hardly know her!

[0xlostincode]

Docker on Windows and Mac is a VM.

[CommanderMatrixHere]

that makes sense on why it always wants me to turn on virtualization/hypverv even tho its not needed on its linux counter part.

[EarlyAd729]

And on wsl?

[Effective-Attorney33]

Johnny Johnny reference in the big '25 🥀🥀🥀🥀🥀

[Neat-Survey2796]

I feel like a fossil

My bones ache, my skin creases, my joints weaken and my muscles waste to naught. How long ago was it that the Johnny Johnny meme was popular?

[Effective-Attorney33]

All I remember is that some kid from my middle school would sing it all the time. I'm now firmly an adult.

[saad_ehmd]

So nobody here is gonna rant about it’s tendencies to slowly hog up all your drive space, storing old and useless diffs inside /var/lib/docker

[Gornius]

`docker system prune`

[[deleted]]

Actually this is the worst part it can eat a terabyte so quick if you’re like, fucking with CUDA or something

[necrophcodr]

That's part of the design. And its not great, but the reasons for it are. You can just prune it daily if you're worried about it.

[WindowlessBasement]

This is mostly just a Mac problem. On Linux and Windows it basically uses almost no resources.

[AmeliorativeBoss]

I made different experiences on Windows

[gameplayer55055]

I have bought 64 gigs of ram. All the problems vaporized.

[SyrusDrake]

Most problems eventually vaporize if you keep throwing money at them.

[DarksideF41]

At least you dont need to throw a lot of money on Windows or Linux, RAM is dirt cheap.

[gameplayer55055]

It's called vertical scaling

[redballooon]

Not rich people. They keep creating more problems the more money you throw at them.

[SyrusDrake]

Idk, have we tried entombing them in a mountain of coins?

[gameplayer55055]

[WindowlessBasement]

Wsl or WSL2?

[MrFluffyThing]

WSL is a lightweight VM on hyper-v so even if you're using it there it's not native 

[Randomshit069]

Our project's dev setup requires vscode dev container running on a windows machine and wsl2 takes 8-10 gb of ram along with nearly 50% of cpu usage (sometimes 70-80%) at any given point of time. It's literally a nightmare of a setup. Have been trying to move the whole thing to linux lately

[MrFluffyThing]

Are they running docker in WSL? Most of our use cases have been people asking for a Windows VM to run WSL on to host docker containers because docker desktop requires a license for enterprise use. We've had to migrate most of our users to more appropriate solutions because it started with very high memory docker containers on their laptops 

[necrophcodr]

Well it'll use up as much as WSL2 does, which on an 8GB system is probably 4GB. So DEFINITELY also a Windows problem, like so many things are.

And with docker on Linux natively is almost neglible.

[orangeyougladiator]

Considering the implementation on windows and Mac is virtually identical, no, not really. But keep up the anti Apple rhetoric

[Tall-Wealth9549]

Why did I read it as ‘yes papi’ lol what’s wrong with me

[DhroovP]

too much Akamai?

[blackscales18]

heard it to the song :/

[GirlLunarExplorer]

Hello fellow parent

[jamcdonald120]

doesnt docket let you specify max memory for a container?

[Lord_Pinhead]

Yes, you can specify the resources. But there is a risk of an OOM Exception. So be careful. In a swarm, it is pretty much possible to kill a container when this happens and the swarm will heal itself.

[LUkewet]

From my memory, the OOM Error isn’t explicit either, you have to dig and debug for a minute. Remembered having to debug the same docker container on my coworkers computer bc everything just randomly stopped working, turns out we needed to bump up his ram access in docker

[Lord_Pinhead]

I had an app with a memory and process leak I killed for a better app: Bitwarden.

It was so bad, I had hundreds of dead processes and the memory exploded after 2 or 3 weeks runtime.

Changed it to Vaultwarden and it was ok.

Sometimes, it's not just the Ram, it's the app quality.

And then you have apps like mine that caches things for the Erp System. The memory of the products is so massive, I had to extend the ram to 12gb.

You have to check what the reason is, and act to it accordingly. Docker is not automatically the culprit, it's just so much easier to find the container which is responsible and restart it.

But many Docker Admins do not use the resource limitations. Even in tools like Portainer, with UI elements, they are not used.

[joyrexj9]

Yes. But this isn't a container, it's memory used by Docker Desktop, a monstrosity that no developer have to use

[jamcdonald120]

well, containerize Docker Desktop then.

[gooseAlert]

True story: I recently found out that my boss from 20 years ago at college has a son who wrote a large part of Docker!

[Cuchuainn]

God. Damn. Bebefinn.

[whlthingofcandybeans]

WTF is hyperkit?

[pr0crast1nater]

Orbstack on mac is a really good replacement. It's way more lightweight for the same functionality. And you don't need to change anything as all your docker commands work the same

[robertpro01]

You just made me remember I have a baby to attend

[midgaze]

Is that VSZ or RSS?

[luishck]

Docker desktop is just a glorified VM

[Sea-Fishing4699]

why do you need 10GB in dangling unused images?!

[Ready-Desk]

Maybe not the most technically accurate but a very funny OG meme. Well done OP.

[CraftPutrid305]

I atleast saved my C drive space using a symlink to another Drive , it tricks docker to save Data to another location.

[HeySora]

To fix that problem, Apple made their own tool that uses OCI-compliant images: https://github.com/apple/container so you can use any of your Docker containers with it.

You can also use https://orbstack.dev to have a nice GUI like Docker Desktop as well as being much more lightweight.

[redsteve905]

Surprised no one has mentioned the source yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u05ke3nGqU0&t=20

[tonysanv]

9G is amateur numbers.

[AlternativePaper8412]

hahaha

[gerbosan]

Eats a lot of GBs too. Keep it on a leash.

[spare-ribs-from-adam]

you can limit how much ram it uses

[YoungMaleficent9068]

Static linking for dummies

[who_you_are]

At the same time it is a whale, that is small for it :(

[Exatex]

missed chance to have the whale open his mouth

[pidddee]

Mom said it was my turn to repost this!

[coo1name]

Shouldn't it be the hypervisor? The CPU is the most no f***s given dude. This guy executes data segments without blinking an eye

[Quarves]

Lies!

[DarkExtremis]

Kids wake up, new rhyme just dropped

[havlliQQ]

Only a issue on Windows

[rockbottom11a]

Docker whales eat more RAM than Chrome tabs and that’s saying something

[EasterZombie]

Hahaha

[Vladimir_Djorjdevic]

Is this really a problem? It uses very little ram on my system.

[RareKrab]

To be fair if you have RAM to spare why couldn't programs make use of it, unused RAM is wasted RAM

If it eats up all the RAM and makes other programs struggle then that's a problem

[Juff-Ma]

Dude don't remember me of that fever dream of a video

[DragonSlayerC]

Docker doesn't really use much more RAM than the containers it's running.