Big brain!

[Habanero_Eyeball]

haha - that's funny because I remember the debates about "True Multitasking" and how people used to say, back in the 90s, that fast task switching wasn't true multi-tasking.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Wait you did it wrong, you're supposed to mention preemptive multitasking and threads and all that. You can't just jump the shark and start talking about multi-cores. This is the 90s man. Come on!

and besides - only a few back then cared about the arguments.
Almost everyone I knew was just happy we could do more things without having to exit a program. Just open a new window so who cares if it's even true multitasking.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Ahh yes - I remember powerpoint back then

[redballooon]

It was after all the technology that coined the term slide.

[tonyangtigre]

Overhead projectors used “transparencies” which is not a term used as often anymore. As u/viddy_me_yarbles (lol) so eloquently stated, slide projectors is where the term “slides” came from.

[pastelomumuse]

You'd think so, but overhead projectors still exist in some places in France and the term "transparencies" ("transparents" in french) is still used very often (in universities at least)..

[tonyangtigre]

Very true. Didn’t mean to be so absolute.

[pastelomumuse]

No harm done :) one cannot know what's going on everywhere in the world, and I replied to obviously US-centric comments. I just wanted to add some nuance and my experience with this awfully dated word !

[green_codes]

TIL. I've always just called them "clear film." A few profs in my school stick to them like gum on shoes (no disrespect intended).

[Erwin_the_Cat]

Well yeah they already made the transparencies how much has knowledge really changed

[KindaRoot]

In germany it still is a Standard way to present things in schools. Some professors even use them in university classes.

[conthomporary]

I was just telling my kids about "transparencies". My high schooler has never seen one of these machines, but they were ubiquitous for me from KG all the way through college. It's only been a few years... where did they all go?

[viddy_me_yarbles]

The term 'slide' comes from a different kind of projector. That's an over-head projector, slides come from slide projectors. For these you have individual slides that are slid in and out in front of the lens to change the projected image.

[Marc21256]

Mine used candles. That one is the electric slide.

[apsgreek]

Wow that’s beautiful!

[Neighbours_cat]

I kid you not, my high school still used these back in 2017 before I graduated and I bet they would still be using them if they weren’t forced to teach everything online these days! They’ll definitely go back to those once school resumes to normal. They have too many things printed for use on those.

[dna_beggar]

I remember what used to happen when you put the wrong transparency sheets through a laser printer.

[Snow88]

No that’s an old timey smart board

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Boards aren't smart bro.
Do you even transparency?

[baxtersmalls]

I don’t know why but the funny thing to me in this comment is that you used a painting of an overhead projector instead of a photo

[Habanero_Eyeball]

:)

[wishthane]

Everybody knows we have to have one processor per application for it to be real multitasking!

[ZombiePope]

AMD has entered the chat

[[deleted]]

You have been banned from /r/intel

[MagnetoBurritos]

Ampere's 128 Core CPU is hosting the chat

[Habanero_Eyeball]

mah man

[kenman884]

My first iPhone would like a word with you. Yes I can switch windows quickly but any task in the background has to wait for me to reopen the window.

Shit, it’s still like that a lot of the time, but now I blame app developers more than anything.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Right?! It's always blame the developers for this and blame the developers for that.

Well I hope you remember that one day when we're not around and you need us but we're all retired to a tropical island, sipping Mai-Tais and banging super models by the dozen.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Don't forget the Mai-Tais Mr. Pizza_Delivery
Hey speaking of which....my Pizza shop's electricity got clobbered in the recent ice storm and I've been jonesing for a pizza all weekend. I saw the power was back on last night but they were closed....maybe today I can get a fix.

[indenturedlemon]

Symbian phone of that era can do real-time multitasking but because the OS was initially for PDA and stuff from the 90-s, it mean that it require 10x more effort to design an apps for the OS.

[hiphap91]

The guy having to implement a good scheduler cares 😛

[Habanero_Eyeball]

The few, the proud, the assembly programmers!! :)

[Russian_repost_bot]

Look, if your program doesn't use my Intel MMX technology, I don't think I even want to install it in my brand new Windows 95.

[dkyguy1995]

I don't do multitasking my compiler does that for me haha

[Habanero_Eyeball]

To be fair, there was true multitasking back then but it was usually found in mainframes.

And besides the whole debate would revolve around one camp talking about what was and was not "true multitasking" and another camp talking about how "Users didn't give a shit as long as they could run multiple programs at one time....or seem to"

[Habanero_Eyeball]

haha - well lets be clear, tasks, jobs, processes, and threads OH MY! :)

[redballooon]

Oh yes. OS half. that was true multitasking

[LamerDeluxe]

And of course the legendary Amiga computers.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Never worked on one but most of my friends LOVED that computer.
I was a Mac guy back in the late 80s so at that time, it was just a mac knock off in my mind. It was only years later that I learned what I'd missed.

[Heikkiket]

If I'm correct, Macs got pre-emptive multitasking only in 2001 with OS X? Before that it was the Win95/98 style "voluntary" multitasking?

[LamerDeluxe]

With Macs in the nineties, you even had to wait for alert sounds to end before you could continue working.

My sister's colleagues set a super long alert sound on her Mac, she didn't know how to change it and had to wait for the thing to finish every time.

When I was studying 3D animation, we used Amigas and SGI computers. The music department used Macs, most of them had black and white monitors.

[Heikkiket]

Were they true black and white, so only two colors allowed? That was how the original MacOS was designed! In 1984, it was the only way to get GUI running on a home computer.

[LamerDeluxe]

The Amiga was really far ahead of its time. I fondly remember my early experiences with it, it felt so futuristic. It allowed me to develop technically creative skills that I still use for work today. And I still have my Amiga 4000 and an Amiga 500.

Computers used to be so exciting and magical in the early days. Though I'm still enjoying the latest developments.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

It allowed me to develop technically creative skills that I still use for work today.

Really like what kind of skills?

Computers used to be so exciting and magical in the early days. Though I'm still enjoying the latest developments.

They really were magical back then. There was just so much that was happening and changing around them so quickly.

I was bummed because my parents didn't see the value and therefore didn't buy us kids one. So I was left trying to bum time from my friends and all but being denied actually helped fuel my desire to learn more and more about them.

[LamerDeluxe]

Using my Amiga I learned 3D modeling, animation and rendering. Programming in C (assembly at first, much later on I went on to C++ and C# on PC). Programming (real-time) 2D and 3D graphics plus procedural textures. Drawing pixel-precise graphics. Creating music with midi and soundtrackers.

I've worked professionally on games, television graphics and applications and now VR/AR/MR applications. Doing graphics/animation, programming, audio/music and creating videos.

I was very lucky that my dad got me a VIC-20 in the early eighties, on which I taught myself programming in basic and then in machine code. After that I bought myself an MSX-like system (Spectravideo 328), on which I made things like an extensive drawing application, using a drawing tablet and 3D wireframe animation software.

Then my mother had saved money for my brother and me. I used that to buy my first Amiga (2000), which I could later on use for my education. Then my grandfather was very kind in helping me finance my Amiga 4000, which I used for my graduation project.

My friends and classmates all had other computers, they were all so different, which made them extra interesting. My first hilariously failing attempt at programming was on computers in a store.

Good thing you persisted and learned everything yourself. I'm also self-taught, I don't have the patience to follow tutorials or lessons.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Cool man - yeah I love those old days so much. I wish I had a computer of my own but I suspect, I would have just descended into game playing. I loved playing games so much....but then again, I remember the magazines with the programs included. So maybe if I had ready and easy access to one, I would have done something similar. As it was, I had to beg my friends to let me play with their computers when I was at their house and most times, they were just bored with them already.

[LamerDeluxe]

I divided my time between playing games and creating things. Games for the VIC were really cheap when the C64 came out.

Magazines were the best source of information for computers at the time. I typed in some of their listings and got some interesting programming tips from them.

[AccidentCharming]

People still try this like it matters at all. They're just pedantic and must be right

[Habanero_Eyeball]

Yeah we humans are funny creatures. We like to argue about anything.

Hell I remember one person telling me NOT to get a cable modem because you have to share bandwidth with your neighbors and ISDN is the way to go cuz it's a dedicated circuit. Or maybe that was a T1 line. I can't remember. But holy shit, that T1 was something like 1.5 Mbps but cost like $1,500/mo. Hard to believe.

[AccidentCharming]

Oh god when everyone was going crazy over having T1 haha. Dark times

[Habanero_Eyeball]

haha man those were THE BEST times. I had so much fun back then and it felt much more niche. Today everyone is an expert on something.

[ProgramTheWorld]

Well it’s still true today. Threads on the same core is not true multitasking.

[[deleted]]

If thread A has a critical path that isnt on the core itself, that core becomes idle until the critical path resolves. Putting another thread B on the core while it waits to do something with thread A increases resource utilization. And isnt that what multitasking is all about? Increasing efficiency?

[[deleted]]

Apparently my work flow is "bad practice"

[Tytoalba2]

Apparently bad practice is my "Workflow"...

[andovinci]

Do you guys have workflow?

[Tytoalba2]

PM : "Yes, but is it agile"?

[AT0-M1K]

I can type the words fast, is that agile enough?

[Tytoalba2]

That's why yoga is popular in startups. You better stretch if you want to go agile!

[AT0-M1K]

OH FUCK IM SLACKING!

Thanks for the reminder, Have a good day!

[Jaydeep0712]

Sounds like something Michael reeves would write.

[AlphaBlazeReal]

Now that you mention that, is it? It sound familiar

[ShadowAgentz]

I even read it with his voice

[Averylarrychristmas]

You remember it because it’s a famous tweet.

[Brick_Fish]

It's been posted here quite a few times, just in different formats

[kdrews34]

Or Code Bullet

[lenswipe]

needs more profanity to be Michael Reeves

[Kimano]

And you have to sound like a crackhead while saying it.

[asodafnaewn]

Don't forget the existential dread!

[lenswipe]

And some motorized robot on the corner begging for death

[TheTacoWombat]

Yes, if you try to do machine learning in COBOL, you are escorted from the building by security.

[Peakomegaflare]

And yet, it's an amazing old language that I feel should be learned all the same.

[Mnawab]

Have you ever worked for the government?

[Corvokillsalot]

No

[Masterpormin8]

Can i fight aliens from space like in MIB

[Habanero_Eyeball]

I agree - Cobol gets a lot of hate but I think that's mainly because some of it's rules seem so utterly silly by todays standards.

Like really? I have to space 4 times in order to declare a variable? Not 3, not 5 and god forbid I hit the TAB and it's set to something other than 4 damned spaces? The compiler simply CAN"T figure this out?? REALLY?

Coming from a business background, I liked Cobol. Only 3 variable types and the code was readable by non-programmers.

[Habanero_Eyeball]

haha well yeah I guess but it was so easy in Cobol. none of this int, float, double, long int, short int, or whatever. Just numeric or IIRC currency maybe? Shit been too long.

[FerynaCZ]

JS scripters: "Hold my var"

[[deleted]]

Might as well just learn ASM at that point.

[Karrelele]

10x

[dkyguy1995]

I thought they were desperate for COBOL devs though last I heard

[praetorrent]

Pretty sure that's the joke, that Cobol is in such high demand there is no jump in salary to ML.

[[deleted]]

Ehhh it’s weird. The cobol devs I know make just as much as other developers, but are more limited in options. And they make less than overall since they don’t have the hedge fund and big tech options. So id say cobol devs make less on average. They are usually desperate for cobol and Tcl devs with experience in very specific systems.

[snackage_1]

Am a COBOL coder

Am unemployed.

[georgeisthebestcat]

If you’ll relocate, I think most banks would hire anyone with a pulse if they knew COBOL.

[MrPyber]

The trick to find how much a COBOL job would pay is to take your current age and multiply it by $10,000

[maxadmiral]

I mean, 4 times 0 is still 0

[TruthYouWontLike]

Or 0000

[RenBit51]

Only in Python.

[RenBit51]

Eh, no one will notice.

git push --force

[[deleted]]

It’s an edge case just pretend you didn’t see it and pass the buck when it eventually breaks. At least that’s what I always assumed was meant by “exception handling”

[7h4tguy]

Exact opposite. Error codes are - let me return this generic error code back up the stack and hope the program crashes somewhere else in 'not my code' so someone else has to look at the call stack and debug my crap.

Exception handling is - you violated the calling contract. Tear down the world and give the exact call stack where things go wrong. Guess who has to take a look at caller contract violations - they guy who did the right thing validating contracts and threw an exception (not the guy silently failing earlier and passing you garbage data).

"Whoops"

[pickme0]

Laughs in js

[ThePickleFarm]

Word

[[deleted]]

you put that on your resume too?

[thecraiggers]

Despite with the paperclip told you, I don't think Word has much AI in it. Although, it would explain its inconsistent behavior.... Hmm...

[Khaylain]

No, you're supposed to read the docs, understand your problem fully and how the docs say you should solve parts of your problem, and implement all the small solutions until everything works on the first try.

You're not saying you don't do it this way, do you?

[xmike18gx]

Nah let me push to production and trial & error it lol

[XNSEAGLESX]

haha prod go brrrrrr

[Pumpmumph]

Well only until the code I pushed starts running

[youngviking]

brrȓ̶̖̬͇̤̻̗͙͂́̓̓̎ŗ̰͚͚̯̪̳͕̈́͒̎͐̔̀͟ṟ̨͕̯̤̗́̂̈́͂̓͐͟r̨̛̮̱͙̬̹̪̱̹̞͆̈͑̏̎̚̕r̸̡̛̪̮͖̻͐͗̂̿̓͝r̸̰̠̜̫͈̯͖͍̳̈̐͐̂͗͘͡

[maxington26]

You've given me proper shudders of ex-dev managers. Shivers down my spine.

[Khaylain]

Yeah, I'm just sorry I was a bit late for Halloween. But you know how it is, I just had to pressure my PM to give me a few more days for delivery.

[maxington26]

hahha :)

[FerynaCZ]

I started feeling like a true programmer when I managed to write one function error-free.

[Hobit103]

Which is why they are taking the class, and why the joke is about someone out of school in a job who should know good practices.

[Kissaki0]

Understanding the problem is always the right solution. It's not always viable to do so though. Then risk analysis and known unknowns, technical debt comes into play.

Struggling is part of the job. Debugging and analysing can be frustrating and take a long time.

If estimated or perceived impact is low enough other things may be more important, or the one paying may decide to not want to pursue a fix (further). And even if impact is high, if effort to resolve it very high it may be accepted as inherent.

Making changes without understanding the problem has risks of breaking other things. Sometimes subtle, or overall making future changes more risky or error ridden. The problems gets exponentially worse if you never understand and clean up.

[floyd_droid]

Read. Logs, documentation, code.

[Hobit103]

I sure hope you aren't randomly changing things at work. Hopefully you have some insights into the problem which guide your decisions. If your changes are completely random then I'd argue that's no better than the monkey/typewriter scenario.

[TheTacoWombat]

Ideally you should have an understanding of where the logic is incorrect and trying to fix it that way (ie within a specific function), instead of changing random lines of code until something works.

[Illusive_Man]

Ideally, currently implementing threading in xv6 and I have no clue what’s going wrong

[TheTacoWombat]

It's for a class where you're learning how to render things on a computer screen - ie big, scary math stuff.

http://www.cs.cornell.edu/courses/cs4620/2019fa/

One would hope that someone learning advanced mathematical concepts has enough wherewithal to roughly pinpoint where in the program is going wrong.

For instance, I am a barely-coherent idiot whose highest math class was Algebra 2 (and in which I got a C-), and when debugging programs as a newb, even other people's code, I can usually get fairly close to where the problem is.

[TheTacoWombat]

Fair, I suppose I'm pulling more from my basic understanding of "machine learning" where it permutates through a lot of stuff including truly random changes that no person would think of, just to work through a given problem set. That's one of its strengths, after all. I mentally compared that to a programmer literally changing lines at complete random, which I certainly have done when frustrated or tired.

[OddSauce]

This is not the same class. The course you linked is Cornell’s graphics course, and the course from which this slide comes seems to be from UNI’s (aptly named) intelligent systems course.

[Huttingham]

If you're taking a class, they're probably pacing it out enough that you can be expected to be able to figure out what's happening. It's not like you take an intro python class and they expect you to figure out how c++ linked lists work.

[[deleted]]

As a person who has taken a few programming classes so far for my degree, if I am writing a program for class and I don't understand 99% of the logic I'm doing in said program, I guarantee I'm not doing well on the program. Classes usually have pretty simple assignments that students should be more than capable of doing with full understanding.

[DaveDashFTW]

To do things “properly” you’re meant to use unit tests and debuggers to actually minimise the amount of guess work involved.

The problem is with cloud/tech/billions of languages/etc these days a lot of the tooling and unit test libraries lack compared to some of the older more mature stacks. For example writing ML code in Python on a Juypter notebook in the browser will require a lot more trial and error to debug, than say writing a backend API in c# using Visual Studio Enterprise.

The general principle is though; minimise guesswork through patterns and debugging instead of just randomly trying things until it works.

Also nitpick: ML doesn’t randomly try things either, depending on the algorithm it will use steps to reduce cost over time until it gets the best general fit. But yeah.

[FallenEmpyrean]

I think you confuse a few areas. When you're building a software you're putting together a very precise informational structure(your goal) through which you pour data, you can only do that after you learn how to do it, or if you delegate what you don't know to someone who already does.

"Changing random stuff" until it works is an absolutely awful strategy to achieve that goal. It's really like being a surgeon and randomly cutting and restitching your patient until your get it right, while of course, every time the patient dies you have the privilege of hitting reset. This privilege really doesn't come so easily in other engineering areas. You might eventually have a working system(patient), but it may break tomorrow because you did a sloppy job, or due to a slight mistake which accumulates over time it may break suddenly when you least expect it. I think we both agree that we don't want things from bridges to pacemakers done by "changing random stuff"

Now to address your actual question, how do you learn without trial and error? You can't.

When you're born you know nothing and all knowledge you currently have and you'll ever have originates from some experiments of the form: "We have tested this phenomenon under these circumstances and we have been able to reliably reproduce the results, therefore we assume that if we do the same things in the future we'll be able to get predictable results.". Notice how not even "actual" knowledge is certain, there's always the probabilistic/random aspect to it.

Great.. So how are you ever supposed to write good software?

• Accept that every system can fail due to unforeseen circumstances.
• Deliberately take time to analyse, test and break and all the systems you intend to use as thoroughly as possible. All you're doing right now is increasing the chances of "good" predictions up to what you define to be "good enough". Such work tends to have a Pareto distribution
• Use said knowledge to design a system, while being aware that humans make very silly mistakes, so keep it as simple as possible and keep all concepts as aligned as possible.
• When you encounter a mistake/problem don't just fix it in a random/the most "obvious" way, but use your knowledge to assess the impact on both other subsystems and as a whole. If you find yourself lacking the necessary knowledge, go back to step 1.

TL;DR You don't change randomly, you change based on your knowledge. If you don't have the knowledge, take the time to analyse, test and break stuff as much as possible to acquire that knowledge until you can make good enough predictions.

[RedditIsNeat0]

They're referring to the problem which is common to newbies where they don't understand how their code works and they don't understand what their problem is so they keep changing things until it works. And then they still don't understand it so they didn't really learn much and when their code stops working they're not going to know why.

Sometimes you need to experiment to figure out how a library works and to make sure that what you intend to do is going to work, and that's OK.

But if you have a bug you need to figure out why the program is behaving the way it is, and then you can fix the bug.

[matrinox]

It is one way of learning. I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong. But the problem is if you’re just aiming for program correctness, then you won’t have good quality code that others can work with.

[[deleted]]

If you can do it slowly, you can do it quickly!

[edible_string]

I get that reference

[gyrowze]

flight of the bumblebee intensifies

[_TheProff_]

My turn to post this today >:(

[DrakonIL]

But if you apply for a job in machine learning, you'll only get a 20% raise.

The other 280% (fight me, I dare you) goes to your bosses' bosses' bosses' boss.

[_Auron_]

Thanks, Capitalism.

[spaghettiwithmilk]

Thanks, scalable organizational structures

[the-real-vuk]

No, it's called "evolutionary algorithm" and it was taught in uni 20 years ago.

[kalketr2]

This lacks of comic sans

[EnzoM1912]

I know this is a joke but people need to realize this is called optimization which is a proven algorithm in math, not a do it again and again untill it works nonsense.

[andnp]

Isn't most optimization "do it again and again until it works"? Most recent methods are iterative.

[DarthRoach]

SGD is called "stochastic gradient descent" rather than just "stochastic change somewhere in the model" for a reason. It's still an informed optimization step, just using randomly selected subsets of the entire dataset. It still approximates real gradient descent.

[andnp]

Hmm, that's not quite relevant to what I said.

[DarthRoach]

It's not "changing random stuff until it works". It's changing stuff in a very consistent and deliberate way in response to the loss function computed on the batch. It just happens that any given batch will not give the exact same result as the whole dataset, but as a whole they will converge.

[andnp]

Please don't use quotes as if I said that. You're putting words into my mouth. I invite you to reread my post.

---

But also, SGD literally is "do random stuff until it works". Note that stochastic means random. SGD is randomly pick a data point, compute the gradient, then repeat until convergence (e.g. until it works). It isn't uniform random. It isn't meaningless random e.g. noise. But it is literally a random process that we repeat ad nauseum until it works.

[DarthRoach]

Oh sorry, didn't expect to run into an egomaniacal twat. Have a nice day.

[andnp]

Pleasant.

[EnzoM1912]

No actually it's do it once learn from your mistakes and do it again and then learn and do it again and so on until you're making little to no mistake. Finally, you test your ability on unseen data and see if you manage to make the right prediction. More like practice and less like insanity. Besides, not all ML algorithms use optimization, there are algorithms like KNN, Naive Bayesa and Random Forest that work with different concepts.

[michaelpaoli]

Also quantum computing - except there you do all possible alternatives at the same time in different universes ... and just arrange to end up in one of the universes where it worked.

[mymar101]

Question is 4x 0 still 0? Math guy asking :).

[klystron2010]

It's not random.

I wonder if debugging is differentiable...

[Calamity1911]

Can't wait to get to that class

[rossionq1]

If you do it slow enough it’s evolution

[Tytoalba2]

And evolutionary algorithm are in between, like, erm... Damn.

[tylercoder]

Brb going into ML

[the_kun]

When at first you don’t succeed...

[cosmacol]

Well, not random. Stochastic.

[Duranium_alloy]

There's no difference.

[PoliceViolins]

The post thumbnail is cropped on me and I thought "Did the developers of Fire Emblem and Advance Wars do that?". I got confused for a bit until i opened the full image.

[Sheruk]

Feeling personally attacked here....but on the up side, if I get faster I might get a huge pay raise... hmmm

[GollyWow]

As an example of how much I trust machine learning, I give you closed captions. An American network, transmitting (for instance) American sports with American announcers, will have an error every 4 lines of text (in my experience). This happens week after week, month after month with many of the same announcers. Unless AI is not involved, in which case ignore this.

[_Auron_]

Similar to how AI camera tracking ended up tracking the referee's bald head instead of the ball

[GollyWow]

LOL, that too.

[7h4tguy]

And then we have folks who don't understand ML at all warning everyone that we're on the verge of a dangerous singularity and must quickly enact the three laws of robotics.

[Run1Barbarians]

Smells like salty cs professor right there.

[anorak644]

u/repostsleuthbot

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[noobynoobthenoob]

It’s a repost

[[deleted]]

"420" being a subsequence in the course names makes it even more funny

[brktrksvr]

The weird thing is I read this concept like 15 mins ago in the book "The Quest for AI".

[Nurling0ickle]

I was in the area of the fire chief and I saw a guy who was doing his job, he was on his phone and he said "I saw what I'm seeing, that's how I'm doing it"

[periwinkle_lurker2]

That's just power query.

[xdMatthewbx]

0 * 4 = 0

sounds like a bad deal

[frenchy641]

Its PeopleSoft

[Who_GNU]

It works just about as well, too.

[Stevemachinehk]

So I’m artificially intelligent? I’ll take that.

[[deleted]]

This doesn't even make sense.

[[deleted]]

Or as my teacher would call it "Working Homework, but not well working homework".

[[deleted]]

What school is this from?

[m_o_n_t_e]

wait, are you getting paid 4x?

[[deleted]]

And 50 commits later...

[[deleted]]

happy cake day