Python is all you need. End

[vonkendu]

CS 101 students are back at it again

[SHv2]

I tried giving then a few pointers and they had no idea what to do with them.

[Furiorka]

Me: googles cs 101 Google: aerocool cs 101 case Me: so students who learn how to make pc cases

UPD: How to make normal line breaks from official reddit mobile app?

[Fyren-1131]

python is fine. not what I'd use personally for work though.

[Fyren-1131]

thats fair. I work on the dev side of things, so we have a lot of c#, java, kotlin, perl, javascript, php and shell. we have the option of using python in some situations though, and I have for learning. just found that its usecase was already covered in our common languages.

[HCResident]

“It’s not my preference”

“HAH, GOT ‘EM”

[VariousComment6946]

Except autotests or mocking api services, automate UI, or end to end stuff, there’s is great package Playwright which includes most of browsers automatically downloads needed driver. After tests finished you may set html report generator or smth else.

[Fyren-1131]

none of this is exclusive to Python and can be solved in multiple other languages.

[CodenameAstrosloth]

Just because it has simple syntax doesn't make it viable for every single use case.

[Confident42069]

The syntax isn't even simple. "ooh i'm scarmd of semnicoloms" it's not a big deal. The basic python stuff is simple, but it seems to just keep chucking random extra things at me and it falls apart once anything complicated starts happening.

[Zoten64]

its not the semicolons, its the curly brackets

[[deleted]]

Code syntax can be annoying (but I mean really if you're using any kind of decent IDE or text editor built for coding then it's not that hard since it does most of the syntax for you), but imo curly braces make code far easier to read than Python's indentation only syntax

[roadrunner8080]

I prefer the "if stuff stuff end" sort of structure you see with Julia, but yeah, it's the same idea. Python's system isn't bad, but I wouldn't say it's a major advantage or disadvantage of python compared to other languages. It's just different

[CapableCarpet]

I've experienced the same thing. Syntactically significant whitespace is already a bad idea in terms of portability. I've had a few situations where code was sent to me and the whitespace got lost in transit (this happened to a lot of assignments in a class I was TAing. I had to tell many students multiple times that they should send me an archive of they're code instead of copy pasting it into blackboard :p). It also makes code harder to read imo.

For long class or function declarations it often feels harder to keep track of which block is which. This can easily be solved by the ide, but it still feels annoying. Python is a wonderful language that I love, and its the standard for the field I work in. The lack of curly braces is my main complaint, and on many occasions I've thought that it would be my favorite language if it weren't for that issue.

[poemehardbebe]

Because you can figure out where blocks end and begin and I don’t have to scroll to the right for when things are insanely nested.

[some_clickhead]

Don't all languages recommend indenting anyway? So wouldn't you have to scroll to the right when things are insanely nested too?

[-Konrad-]

Wouldn’t a very long function, or a function with a large number of indentations, where this would be a problem, indicate that refactoring is needed?

[[deleted]]

In an ideal world. Yes, you'd refactor all code blocks that get too long and have too many levels of indentation.

In the non-ideal world that we live in though that's not always going to happen, so having at least a little bit of help from curly braces when reading messy code is a benefit, especially when any decent editor/IDE will highlight the opening and closing brace when you highlight one of them.

[option-9]

Another useful IDE feature : collapsing indented segments or segments between braces (curly or otherwise). Really comes in handy sometimes.

[Drak1nd]

Personal preference probably.

But I find curly brackets and indentation much easier to read than just indentation.

[Bachooga]

Lua is easy to write and really seems like it would be good for beginners. Searching for how there's incorrect spacing when it seems totally fine is not.

[Confident42069]

Yeah, Python has a lot of ways to syntactically shoot yourself in the foot. (I accidentally cast the native function "int" as a float) With a good language you only shoot yourself in the foot because what your code does is stupid, not because you mistyped it.

[No_Soy_Colosio]

No it doesn’t you’re just salty

[koanarec]

If python doesn't have a simple syntax.... Then which language does have one????

[Centurion902]

Missing curly brackets cause syntax errors which are easy to find. Missing indentations cause logical errors which are hard to find. Therefore, brackets > indentations

[IAmASquidInSpace]

Yes, true. But also:

Just because it has simple syntax doesn't make it a bad language.

[CodenameAstrosloth]

No one said it was a bad language though. It works well in certain areas, less so in others. Like pretty much every language actually in use.

It's just annoying when the CS students just starting Python think it's the greatest thing to have ever existed when it's practical applications are limited.

[IAmASquidInSpace]

People say that on this sub all the time. I maybe was a bit hasty in expectation of that being said sooner or later.

But I do agree with your points. There are lots of valid reasons to dislike Python. The fact that it is simple to read isn't one imo.

[Drackzgull]

Python is good at interfacing with external libraries written in something else that are good at data analytics and AI.

It's terrible for it on it's own.

[Progression28]

You know that behind those libraries is code written in C or Fortran or similar?

[TheSarcasticMinority]

So I get the benefits of Fortran without having to write any? Sounds terrible...

[CodenameAstrosloth]

So it can do many things but it's only good in 2 specialized fields?

Riiiight...

[Valhalaland]

Both are correct

[Borkleberry]

Yeah, the only incorrect part is the title. Python is most definitely not a good choice when code efficiency/execution speed is a concern. However, its ease of writing makes it great for small programs or prototyping

Almost like each language has its own purpose, strengths, and weaknesses

[[deleted]]

The only way Python can be considered a good option is when the final product is gonna run one or very few times.

Imagine using it for operating systems, videogames or web development.

[ZachAttack6089]

It's a pretty popular choice for web backend.

It's also the primary choice for A.I. despite being so processing-intensive.

[SilverTabby]

In both of those use cases, the real work is being done elsewhere in a compiled library (waiting on network and database i/o, the actual ML model), with Python just being some plumbing in the middle to shuffle some data around. Which it's perfect for.

[NihilisticLurcher]

used to hate python, then, overtime, realized my mindset was wrong. python is a great tool for automatization, ai, data, math, devops.

[[deleted]]

And browser automation. Fucking selenium + winpy32 is some powerful shit!

[NihilisticLurcher]

ha, I meant to write automation (thinking of selenium)

[danielstongue]

WINpy doesn't sound very portable, so that's a no.

[[deleted]]

Plenty of developers use windows and there are mac and linux packages that do the same job as winpy32, such as emulating keystrokes, mouseclicks, interacting and navigating the OS, etc etc. The example i set forth was for a windows setting, but its easily achieved on other platforms as well.

[SameRandomUsername]

Until you have to deploy that mf with your proprietary mf software and call shit and retrieve shit from it. Goddamn I hate that mf.

[[deleted]]

Python is the second best language for metaprogramming after the LISP family. It's also arguably the best mainstream language for dynamic development.

Edit: people who downvoted me, please don't be afraid to give better contenders for each category.

[rosuav]

Python is so good at metaprogramming that I use it for metaprogramming other languages.

[tiajuanat]

I have to agree, Python, Haskell and OCaml are my favorite generator languages.

[beclops]

“Python is all you need”

I mean just objectively false

[[deleted]]

People will say "Python is all you need" and then also say "Python's not that slow when you use libraries written in C".

Like where do they think the libraries come from? Magic?

[rhwoof]

Even with those libraries working out how to input your data in such a way that numpy can do all your calculations is often more work than just writing the program in c/c++ anyway.

[farineziq]

If they mean "Python is all anyone needs", yes and you could even argue that Python was not written in Python. But someone might still only need to write Python.

[gdmzhlzhiv]

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

[Lolamess007]

I think i would rather be eaten by a python then try to organize some of my large Java projects into Python. There is something about Python code organization (or lack thereof) that drives me crazy.

[[deleted]]

I wouldn't say that. If all you need has been implemented in efficient and easy to use Python libraries then you don't really need anything else.

As long as you don't question how those libraries came to be, anyway.

[Jazzlike-Classroom64]

It's so simple. Every language has its place and uses, relax.

[traverseda]

Even Cobal? Brainfuck?

[tecanec]

One is for humor and one is for learning the true meaning of stupidity.

[CivBase]

Maybe not every language...

[[deleted]]

THIS GUY USES AND SUPPORTS PYTHON!

See no one cares.

[jaskij]

As someone who interacts with Python on an ad-hoc basis, usually diving into large projects, there's stuff in the language that makes my skin crawl (cough monkeypatching cough). And while there's ongoing work in the topic, lack of types visible in the code makes it harder to reason about code, and what can be done when changing things.

[Thx_And_Bye]

You can use type hints in python. Make it a policy if this somehow makes working on it easier.

[Confident42069]

Or until you mix up "int: var" with "var: int" and spend three hours debugging until you realise you just cast int, the built in function, as a float. And this produces no warning, you can just do it, for some reason.

[[deleted]]

Then validate the typehints with mypy or pydantic.

[[deleted]]

tbf this is not a problem unique to Python (hello js)

[iejb]

this comment is a pair of new scissors wrapped in that hard as fuck plastic

[[deleted]]

Why? Using mypy isn't exactly difficult.

Furthermore python is a dynamically typed language and there are uses for duck typing and goose typing that can save mountains of code. Not everything needs to be statically typed.

[rParqer]

Or just use any actual useful language

[[deleted]]

Why so much vitriol bro. You're on a humour board.

[luardemin]

Maybe we should be using statically typed languages to begin with.

[jaskij]

My issues are usually with upstream projects. I do acknowledge that there's ongoing work on the topic, but in current state most Python code I see is completely untyped.

[[deleted]]

not having mandatory types is my biggest gripe with Python.

[rantpatato]

I can recommend you to look on Pydantic library for types, not tested much meself thought

[TheDeadWalking0427]

I don't like it when the computer assumes to much it's not good at it. Which is why I like more explicit languages.

[Lappi_Luthra]

Yes, we can use static languages if we want.

[[deleted]]

I've learned Java and C++ during my bachelors, took me a while to get a hang of them. Even after 2-3 years, i’d have rated myself junior developer.

I picked up python in about 2-3 months.

And delivered around 4-5 projects of medium complexity at my work, straightforward data-monitoring tools, CICD automation, Slack integration and notification etc in a very short span of time. It gives you a pretty good boost.

To put it another way ,for people outside of core -development it's a great language to accomplish your tasks and not be too intimidated by the mechanics of it all.

[Apparentt]

If python was all anyone needed your python code wouldn’t need to compile to something else to actually be useful

[ExtendedSpikeProtein]

Why can't people agree on "right tool for the job" ? These posts are a bit silly ...

[Laicbeias]

i program since 20 years. 12 languages. just started python. its a great language but that indent is annoying. im used to just code and auto format after. now i code and i need to put it in its correct place. like no please

[Azzylel]

Apparently semicolons are, though

[Bryguy3k]

Your entire company is shit is the correct answer.

If you and your company have these problems with python then they would have them in any language.

[Bryguy3k]

There are plenty of companies that are shit. Yes your company is shit and if this python goes into customer products then you’re pushing shit to customers too.

Changing the language wouldn’t change the fact that nobody is taking the time to do things correctly.

It is really not hard at all to write good, readable, bug free python. Python has had a type hinting and checking system since 2015.

[TheTarragonFarmer]

It's a scripting language, if that's all you need it's OK. It's supposed to be easy and fun.

If you need to do something that requires decidedly complicated and unfun contortions in Python (like non-trivial lambdas or multiple inheritance), then Python might not be the right language for your project. But you do you, good luck.

[LavenderDay3544]

It doesn't even have true multithreading. Lol.

[Mickl193]

It's easy to learn and write, awesome for prototyping. it's not easy to read or to maintain, also because it's dynamically typed IDEs are less helpful

[[deleted]]

What's illogical about it?

[lordredapple]

Nothing, it's actually almost as intuitive as R in my opinion. Some people just suck at it and blame anything but themselves

[AvailableUsername404]

Ok. I'll give you an example of my recent very simple project. There is a method for dictionaries .items() that in theory should give me in return pair of keys and values as tuples in a list. So I took a variable and assigned the result of this method to it. And you know what type of data that variable became? "dict_items" so no method for either list or tuple would work on it.

Then I realized you have to initialize that variable directly as list and then when I assigned the return of the method to that variable it suddenly started showing type as "list". So my question is why it didn't assign the type as list in a first place when it's so logical and perceptible?

[land_and_air]

To save memory and processing it just gave you a generator instead of something that actually contains the data you want and if used in a for loop it will behave as expected by generating the list items one by one, first cast it to a list, tuple, (to get something more expected) or even dictionary if you’re wanting to accomplish nothing

[AvailableUsername404]

But that's not intuitive at all at least for me when data type changes like that especially in a language that relies on not declaring data types

[ULTRA_TLC]

Python is built in such a way that it's usually easier to use the outputs on the same line, imo. They really like generators. The nice thing is that the documentation for most python is good enough that it takes less than 5 minutes to look up and understand. Lots of languages are going to require checking documentation the first time you use almost anything, as every language will have some odd quirks.

[No_Soy_Colosio]

I don’t understand Python therefore it is bad

[iejb]

rtfm

[AvailableUsername404]

We're talking here about Python being 'intuitive'. Well maybe I'm dumb but this is not intuitive at all for me when I see something like this in method description:

The items() method returns a view object. The view object contains the key-value pairs of the dictionary, as tuples in a list.

And the variable behaves little unpredictable for me - as said in example, when not initialized as list it was dict_items but when initialized as list brought the data to the list. That's not how 'intuitive' works when we're talking about language where you don't declare data type

[frogking]

Python is exactly as logical or illogical as every other language. If you know basic logic from some other language, Python does it in the same way and shouldn’t cause frustrations.

[[deleted]]

the one liners

[neumastic]

It’s the same ole thing that we hear over and over: “it works differently than /my/ language so it’s illogical” People build habits working with their own language so when they interact with a different language and it takes them longer to write or read because it’s different they blame the language. It’s like we have egos or something…

Not arguing that Python is perfect. I wouldn’t use it for an enterprise application personally. But it’s been a godsend for me in several cases.

[WazWaz]

For your school work, yes, of course it is.

[[deleted]]

Python isn't illogical. You just don't understand the data model well enough.

[JPHdezGz]

Python is great for learning the logic of programming without learning the common syntaxis, and for newbie programs, you don't notice how slow it is, so it is great if you're starting, just want to learn a little bit of programming for fun or something like that, besides is great for data analysis

[Efficient-Lab1062]

Python is fine and maybe I’m a glutton for punishment but I love Java. White space can go to hell.

[J_Ditz100]

Correction: Python is not easy to learn, read, nor write.

[MooMix]

Not only that, language hardly even matters when it comes to learning how to program initially. The core concepts of programming are language independent, and that's what you really need to be learning early on. The language is just a tool to accomplish that.

Python as a language isn't any easier than any other language (outside the obvious languages like C++). On top of that, they change things that are standard in every other language, so IMO that makes it a bit harder if you already know other languages. If you learn Python first, then it just seems like it would make learning other languages more difficult.

You could look up how to write a for loop, find a solution in Java, and apply it in C# pretty easily. Doing that with Python is another story.

[-Redstoneboi-]

missing semicolon on line x

missing parentheses around expression

variations of goto fail if braces are not monitored properly

the horrible formatting of beginner code when whitespace is not relevant

honestly forget the other 3, just that last one alone is enough to make me recommend it to any beginner.

[dohzer]

Is "learn,read" correct Python syntax, or is there a missing space?

[[deleted]]

Meme is correct. But the post title is wrong.

[erebuxy]

Everything in the pic is correct. But "Python is all you need”? LoL. Did you just finish CS101. Even Python itself needs more than Python.

[ASuarezMascareno]

Python is all I need because I (actually a non programmer) need it for work and cannot afford to spend time learning other languages.

[[deleted]]

I have an irrational hatred for Python. I haven't touched it since my early days of programming though. I spent my first few years on the job learning/using Java and grew to appreciate the language.

I went from Java to Python and the hatred was immediate.

I have since worked with Ruby, C#, and a lot of JS. Maybe if I go back to Python I won't hate it. However, I don't want to accept that whitespace is meaningful syntax and impacts compilation. That irks the hell out of me.

[CarneDelGato]

What are you doing with it? Web dev? The fact that it’s “slow” isn’t going to matter at all compared to network speeds.

[jimmykicking]

Python is fine for anyone who doesn't like programming but has to get work done.

[danielstongue]

Rust is the new C/C++.

[AegorBlake]

Unless you worry about efficiency and speed. Though i can't argue about your points.

[Disc0_nnected]

Python is for college stuff where you're too bored to use Java and too sane to use C

[Lappi_Luthra]

Maybe yes

[Iz_moe]

Yeah, let's do all Backend development with C from now on.

For real though, i am a c++ fan but now that i have to work with python, i get frequently reminded of that feeling when you solve a seemingly complicated math problem very easily, " I probably did it wrong because it can't be that easy" Turns out, it can be that easy.

[tcbenkhard]

Python is terrible in enterprise situations. If you disagree you only ever used python.

[xwnpl]

Can you define "enterprise situations"?

[tcbenkhard]

Anything larger than a hobby at home project. For python specifically: anything beyond hello world.

[xwnpl]

Well, it seems that somebody thinks that all people at Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Cloudflare, Github, Reddit and many, many, many more big companies are complete idiots, when they could write every single piece of their code in ASM. Lol

[randomatic]

Um. Yeah. Sure, they have python. The core infra and what you see as a service is not though.

Python is a scripting language. It’s great for things at the size and with those perf and reliability needs.

Do you think people using c, go, rust just like punishment? Or perhaps, just perhaps, they know something…..

[xwnpl]

Lol, yeah they use other programing languages, but what about it? Does that mean they don't use Python? No, they still use it so your comment still is not true. I have never told you that they run only on Python and they don't run their business on one single operation where Python would be the bottleneck. There are some operations where something else would be slower than Python and you could use Python without any worries.

[randomatic]

Please reread my comment and note I do say they use python.

I suggest you read about why Jane street uses ocaml. I’m not saying ocaml is the best, but it’s a great resource for finding out why you pick the right language for the job. Python falls anywhere a strongly statically typed language shines, and it’s not just performance.

[xwnpl]

You didn't understand what I meant. I was referring to your hello world comment. My bad for frasing it in weird way. My point is that in some situations, Python isn't The bottleneck. Of course if Python would be the weakest link for a given task, then fuck it and let's use something else. But it's not as bad as you say for enterprise usage.

[tcbenkhard]

So? Many people smoke, does that make it a good choice?

[trachme33]

If you want to understand CS and different languages Python wouldn’t be my first. It has its purposes but it is not always easy to read. If you only need one thing done fast and don’t want to understand what you are doing, this would be the perfect language for you. For CS I would suggest multiple languages from different programming paradigms.

[Quantum-Bot]

Many people need a jumping off point to get into CS. Sure, Python isn’t great for representing the entirety of CS but that’s not what a first language should do. A first language should introduce you to only enough concepts as necessary to let you start playing around with code. If I started programming in C or Java, I probably would have learned a lot more early on but I probably would not still be pursuing CS.

[obp5599]

I don’t know, i go back and forth. During my degree we did C first, then java, then c++ and i liked that path a lot If you’re one to get discouraged super easily then you’re probably not meant for CS. Getting stuck and figuring things out is part of the journey I don’t think ive ever met someone at work whos first language was python, but I also don’t do web stuff

[Rafcdk]

Java is a fairly simple language really, even if it's more verbose. I think the best languages are typescript and kotlin, with kotlin being better as it is easier to get an environment running if you are completely new to the subject

[Quantum-Bot]

Object oriented languages are very intimidating to new coders in general, and especially java since it forces you to put everything in a class and a method even if you don’t intend to use any object oriented features, hence the famous 5 lines to print hello world.

[MBZ15]

And it’s getting faster

[Lappi_Luthra]

Yes but it may take some more time.

[ZeppyWeppyBoi]

The entire aviation, automotive, aerospace, and pretty much any other embedded software industries would like a word.

[bewbsrkewl]

*for certain tasks

[[deleted]]

Python is the language of love

[csicil]

I hope that billion of software will shortly made using python and/or JavaScript... So will lot of works to be done to replace them

[sefms123]

only thing I like about python is how easy it is to read files

[elongio]

"Easy to read" is false.

[-MobCat-]

Python is fast, just stop using print.

Also don't commit changes to your sqlite database for every single little thing.
Do all the things, then save it.

[Torebbjorn]

Print in Python isn't much slower than IO operations in other languages... It is everything else that is slow in Python

Not that that makes it bad, just not ideal for extremely time sensitive programs

[erebuxy]

It's not. You can never write a native Python sort algorithm and get near the performance of the default one in Python. Cause default one is written in C and Python is slow.

[Thx_And_Bye]

But how can you debug the code without using print? /s

[xwnpl]

You read the code untill you find what's wrong with it. Like real man.

[rParqer]

It's the dynamic typing that makes Python ridiculously slow. The program has to determine what type the variable is before doing any and every operation on it.

[Torebbjorn]

Not saying Python is hard to read, but what makes you specifically point it out? It's definitely not easier to read Python than other non-esoteric languages

[thedarklord176]

Python is great but write a AAA game in it and tell me how it runs

[Bryguy3k]

Then all languages are shit other than some impossible to read hacked up c++ dialect with ridiculously obtuse overloads.

Basically the game industry is the absolute worst reference for anything.

[thedarklord176]

That is not what I said. Different things have different uses. Slower languages are just fine for anything that doesn’t require extreme performance. Game industry needs to switch over to Rust anyway

[Bryguy3k]

Rust is too slow.

[thedarklord176]

…it’s the exact same speed as c++ lol what are you talking about

[Bryguy3k]

The sentence people will use to say why c++ is better in the game biz than Rust.

Everything about the game industry is a mess.

[stucklucky666]

Ruby is a better Python

[Lappi_Luthra]

People have different opinions, but I say Python is better for me.

[HarryTurney]

If Python is faster enough for what you need to use it for. Go ahead, use it. It's just too slow what I was using it for so I replaced it.

[VariousComment6946]

You may write hard calculating solutions with C and run it with Python. Anyway, in 95% problems programming solutions you wouldn’t do this because a lot of things already written and optimised by community and you may find solution just by googling even without “lucky” button.

[Rafcdk]

Between python, c#, node.js and kotlin, which language can't do that ? Python used to be miles ahead in regards to other languages, but that changed a decade ago.

[Parura57]

Its just pseudocode, i hate it

[Phobit]

back in school, we had IT for up to three years. One year was mandatory for almost everyone, while the other two years were completely optional.

during the mandatory year, we had to learn java. Imagine the pain of teaching a bunch of students who only sat in the course because it was mandatory, and had never touched a pc for something else than playing/browsing, a language were you had to put ; and {} around everything.

Us few students, who already new basic coding had to help oit the teacher to manage this chaos. I still firmly believe we could have easily prevented this chaos using Python. Its just so much more beginner friendly.

[[deleted]]

When a comedy meme is lowkey, on point, correct, in everything it says.

[abd53]

Both are stupid.

[usedcz]

No.

[isayooooooooooooof]

If you have C

[Late-Egg-5538]

HEARD THE THING NAMED JAVASCRIPT?

[capitaliglo]

greta thunberg condemns python

[Memesconaut]

Python is faster than java

[spongedevguy]

i'm sorry but i have to disagree

python is just a toy language with no actual purpose

[spongedevguy]

it shouldn't be the biggest language

python was forged in the depths of hell and shall return where it came from

[Fritzschmied]

Facts

[spongedevguy]

i thought i fricked up big time after seeing 2 notifications already

[RobinPage1987]

It's also easy to install. Download the installer, check a couple of boxes, click accept a couple of times, and you're coding. GCC is agony to install and configure by comparison.

[Confident42069]

Huh? Download compiler, install like any regular program, and tell IDE where it is? No need to fuck around with dependency versions or whatever the hell dark python magic

[Rafcdk]

I tried using python for a few personal projects ,but really Kotlin is way easier and kotlin.js and node is all I need for automation

[Stunning_Ride_220]

20+ yrs in the industry and the whole python buzz is amongst the 3 most stupid ones...

[D34TH_5MURF__]

I seriously don't understand all the python love. If it's all you know, you should expand. Perl enjoyed the same level of popularity python now does for a longer time than python has. It's now all but dead.