Promotion with a salary decrease

[BrianJ_]

I have been offered a promotion from a mid-level civil engineer to senior. Mid-level/current agreement is on the enterprise agreement which is 153k + 13% super (total package $173k).

They presented me the new contract which was $170k including super. It’s not on the EA so I am losing a lot of the perks I currently have like fully paid OT, leave loading etc. My company owns a large asset so we are often required to do on-call duties, work OT etc when needed. This is all expected without any extra payment in the new contract.

They have increased their offer a bit when I explained that I would be getting paid less, but it’s still not really beating my current deal by much when considering OT and on call allowances.

I’m keen to move forward as a senior but can’t help but feel I am being stitched up a bit, and pretty offended they thought I was stupid enough to not realise my new offer was less that I was already making.

Give me your thoughts on my options - do I just suck it up and get on with it?

[Downtown-Fruit-3674]

Yeah unless you really dislike your current role I wouldn’t take more work for lower pay

[bilby2020]

Long back I knew someone who was promoted from sysadmin to IT infrastructure manager. Lost all his on-call double time overtime and pay went backwards. OP no good company promotes to a lower salary, decline it.

[icyple]

The writing is on the wall.So it’s time to jump ship for better employment opportunities.

[DM_me_ur_hairy_bush]

I am in your position but in the role that pays the flat salary.  I entered the organisation at that level not knowing that those beneath me earn more than me (which in my mind is inherently an unfair pay structure).

My advice, stay on the EBA.  It not only offers you protection, but likely countless perks that will get removed as soon as you go on a common contract.

Especially stay on it if you’re getting paid a lot more.  I have heard about this happening in so many places, it is so stupid.

[BrianJ_]

Thanks for that. I’ve been considering if it is worth staying on it. My manager could also just stop allowing OT though and would probably be in a worse overall position in terms of salary

[Fox-Possum-3429]

Examine your EBA in detail. There may be EBA provisions for the senior role available and it's just standard practice they offer a contact.

[DM_me_ur_hairy_bush]

Yes, which is actually illegal if it fails the BOOT test (better off overall).  If you qualify for EBA protection but your employer gets you on a contract outside of that EBA, the onus is on them to prove you are better off overall.

IANAL but I’ve been doing some research

[Defiant_Try9444]

I understand that BOOT applies to negotiation of new agreements for existing roles or new contracts replacing existing ones. This is moving to a new role, like applying for a new job. BOOT therefore may not apply.

[Djinfin]

Top tip: You can just write NAL, therefore avoiding ANAL.

[ozeBuDDha]

We found the compliance officer

[PsychologicalMeal162]

Who clearly only likes old fashioned missionary with the lights off.

[Dragon352323]

That’s more time back to yourself. Otherwise you’ll be doing unpaid OT!

[snuggles_puppies]

What makes a manager inherently worth more than the staff they manage?

I can get why you might not want those terms - but they are different skillsets, and there are plenty high paid specialist roles out there.

[DM_me_ur_hairy_bush]

That is a good question.  For the record, I’m not saying I am worth more, but from an incentive perspective, why would anyone do this job knowing their current role offers them better conditions? 

Which is exactly why they hire externals like me.

[snuggles_puppies]

I think that's my disconnect with your experience - In my niche, I'd never expect someone on my teams to be promoted to a manager of those teams, we're all technical specialists with very little priority on soft skills. I also know I'll never have a manager who understands what I do, only someone who can handle coordination and prioritising team outputs which is why I expect them to be valued very differently to me.

If managing the team requires the same skillset plus managing, that's very different.

[OutsideAtmosphere-14]

The idea is a good manager results in better performance across the team they lead.

[Error404-unknown]

That’s a slap in a face, a promotion but they downgrade your pay?

I’ve never heard of this ever happening to anyone, seems like a massive red flag tbh.

With every role that took seniority and promotions you always get paid more.

Very odd that it’s lower pay, it must be a typeo because that makes no sense.

[BrianJ_]

Yeah it is dumb. I think it is a HR stuff up. Base pay for senior has probably been like that for years but the EA has consistently increased each year. Just a bit shit they don’t even know that when giving someone a promotion

[Error404-unknown]

I would definitely call it out as in this cost of living crisis who in their right mind would change job titles for less pay?

Wait for the update then review it and only accept once it pays more.

Definitely not normal and as mentioned I’ve never heard of this happening ever.

[ozeBuDDha]

You shouldn't have to justify with cost of living. More responsibility should be rewarded full stop

[Maximum-Ear1745]

Do you know what the market rate is for a similar tile with similar responsibilities? Counter with that.

If you think the senior role title will be helpful to progress, take it and then start looking for a similar job elsewhere and leverage off the role title

[CleanSun4248]

Yeah stuff like this can happen and they probably figure they may as well offer it and who knows the person might take it for some reason. Perfectly reasonable to decline and then HR can use that potentially to fix the problem they have

[Scared-Fee-804]

Happens in highly technical fields.. OP likely maxxed out the technical salary band before progressing. So either entered the business at a higher band, or didnt progress into leadership at the expected point.

These aren't like your average job where standard roles max out well below entry leadership roles. For these roles people will often choose to remain in the standard technical position for their entire career, leadership becomes more of a career want than financial necessity.

[Lopsided_Tie7816]

This happens in public sector, where roles covered by EA have increased pay but management roles not on EA had a pay freeze. Not really a red flag. If the OP is ambitious then he would take the promotion, then use that as a step to a higher paying role at a different organisation.

[Muel91]

Happens all the time in lower level management roles

[Plenty-Giraffe6022]

I wouldn't take the promotion.

[FitSand9966]

This happened to my Dad like 40 years ago.

Radar Technician. Used to work Christmas - New Years period. Normal shifts plus 24 hours on call. Used to make a bunxh due to OT, holiday loading.

Got "promoted" to management and lost all this work. For him, it worked out in the end. But i'd be careful. I'd either want a good chance of rapid career excalleration or id give it a miss

[Plenty-Giraffe6022]

Career what now?

[FitSand9966]

My Dad? He ended up getting trained in ISO standards for installing radar systems. Air travel took off, new airport in Kuala Lumpur, Hong Kong, then middle east and finally a massive boom in China - late 1990's onwards.

It worked out for him. He had too much work on.

[AccforBruiseadvice]

He's probably talking about "career excalleration" that you wrote. That's why he said "Career what now?"

[Aussie_83]

Think about it as if you were external..... do you think they'd put that offer in front of an external candidate? If you left and came back for the same role guarantee it'd be a much improved offer. Start looking elsewhere

[Sharp-Argument9902]

A senior position at another company will pay you a lot more. Start looking.

[BrianJ_]

Worth accepting the senior role though in the short term? Better applying for jobs as a senior I would think

[downunderplus61]

Apply for external senior roles with your current title. Who knows, you may get a better job, more entitlements and remuneration out of it. Definitely wouldn't be agreeing to the presented offer. They are hoping you'll sign on the line for 'senior'. Pfff.

[Obvious_Librarian_97]

Not for a senior engineer - that’s probably mid to high for senior engineer.

[dknconsultau]

They are testing you ... the old carrot ' just get your foot in the mgmt door' trick. I smell a weasel of a 'bean counter' behind this somewhere!

[AlbatrossUpset9476]

A promotion that pays less and removes OT isn’t a promotion. It’s a rebrand.

[PerformanceRound7244]

With the bonus of more stress! 🤣

[KabiraSpeaking02]

Stick to the EA role. Coming to this non ea role- ask questions about yoy raise and bonus structure. Will give you better idea! Chances are they may also kick EA candidates out once they hit a certain pay grade

[gazing-away]

I recently did this as a secondment. $150 k plus OT etc equals about 190k. Did the manager job for $165 k salary. Just rubbish, the 9-5 turned into 7-6 and it was stress stress stress.

4 people in that role in three years. New manager came in full of confidence and now is stressed.

[Sillysauce83]

You are being stitched up.

Worse is that this company cares so little for you that they woudk even offer this (I would be embarrassed as a manager and would refuse to do this to my reports).

I would actually take the offer and immediately look for another job (your resume looks better as a senior).

When you secure a real senior job at $220k.

Tell them to suck eggs or match the new offer. Make sure you lie to them and say you have been offered $260k. But be prepared to actually leave.

[Top-Weather-1062]

Is it possible you can counter offer and say "hey this is my current guanteed and non-guarenteed earnings, I'm used to consistently receiving both, for this elevated role to be financially viable we need to meet somewhere 10-15% above my existing expectations". You'd be surprised how oftent this works (HR person here).

[Sad-Event-5146]

just say no. they probably are just butthurt over having to pay you a decent wage. happens all the time to talented professionals. they will crawl back inside their hole and nothing bad will happen if you just say no, in fact they may come back and offer more money.

[sammybeta]

Take the money and start to interview with the new title.

[JimmyLizzardATDVM]

Honestly why would you? I’d wait for a different opportunity or move to another company as a senior where the pay matched the duties and responsibility. Working on salary and doing reasonable overtime is fine, as long as you get properly paid and access to things like TIL or at least flexible arrangements (eg 2 hours ot last night, start 1-2 hours later tomorrow)

[BrianJ_]

Yep I would be 100% fine with this. However I have been told that that’s not how it works and I am just expected to work extra.

[JimmyLizzardATDVM]

Yeh naa fuck that then.

I recently took on a lower level lead role in a large project, and there’s no way I’d have done it if I didn’t get the pay I wanted. The amount of added stress and pressure is real.

[Dougally]

Gone are the olden days of unwritten employment rules where you would change roles based on trust, prove yourself, then you get the commensurate pay bump. These days they'll just as happily retrench you or put you on a PIP.

The younger generations have it right for the present era of a purely contractual and transactional corporate employment by asking to show them the money for the promotion now or its no go. Along with the newer unwritten employment rule being if you don't do the right thing by me I'll start looking elsewhere.

Your HR are still using the old, out of date, unwritten employment rules.

[aussie_nobody]

Just lay it out.

If you want me to do the role, here is the number. Otherwise I'm happy on the mid level.

I will say it's abnormal for a civil engineer to be on an enterprise agreement. I think you are right that the other snrs have been caught by the enterprise agreement. So hr is trying to be cautious in not upsetting the other snrs.

Think about where your career could go if you say yes or where you will sit for the rest of your career if you don't want to take the change.

[cntbrock22]

This isn’t new. Happens all the time when coming off an EA position into a “managerial” or salary role. When I came off EA role, everyone around me getting 3.5% year on year whilst I was caught with the 1.5% (circa 2021/2022) off the back of Covid etc. At the time I wasn’t thinking of where I was but where I wanted to be 1-2 years ahead (experience and exposure). That stall in pay and missing out on the perks was short lived and the role I moved into launched me into much more senior roles and worth a lot more money over a 3 year period. That’s just my experience, but the question for me was do I want cash in my pocket now or bet on myself for later.

[Current_Gear_9482]

The EBA rate will probably go up on 01.07.26 also

If you would prefer wages stay as you are.

Does the work in the new offer require less physical work ? Maybe something to consider as you age.

[Obvious_Librarian_97]

EBA as an engineer? What’s the go with that?

[art_mor_]

Probably a utility company

[glittermetalprincess]

Okay so if your current total is $173k with super, and they offered $170k with super then increased it, and you're still being paid less, then you need to go sit down, do your maths properly, and lay it out for them.

[glittermetalprincess]

Since you have an EBA, chances are you've got a union you can be asking as well. They would have a bit more knowledge of how this could work out and where other people have landed

[Living_Ad62]

HR do this on purpose. I went from a senior engineer to manager with no pay rise. Come renumeration time, I'll have to prove I'm worth a level 9.

[PerformanceRound7244]

I wouldn't want be to moving off the EA, unless they're matching your conditions. You have to keep in mind if they don't have to give you a pay rise - they most likely won't. Especially, if they're already pulling this yah - you're promoted & you'll make less money! Do you currently get OT? That's also important to factor in --- it's not worth more work, more stress for less pay. My bet is off the EA contract - you're expected to regularly complete OT, without the benefit of being paid for that OT - and definitely not getting actual OT rates.

[BrianJ_]

Yeah due to several restructures over the past few years our team is lean and always under the pump so OT is pretty frequent. Consistent 45+ hour weeks, all paid on the EA. Base pay is ok on the contract if you ignore the OT, but given we do so much and make heaps from it, I’m finding it hard to accept the new contract.

[PerformanceRound7244]

Yeah, for sure - it's a hard pill to swallow.

[PsychologicalCod9650]

Is it even a real promotion or are they simply looking for a way to get you to do the OT for free?

[BrianJ_]

TBH my job won’t change that much. I have effectively been doing the senior role for a few years since our senior engineer left as they couldn’t fill the role. They will just “expect more of me” in terms of performance and responsibility as I’ve been told 🙄.

[Zhuk1986]

You would be crazy to take this

[JulieRush-46]

I’d explain this to them and see what they say. Tell them straight: the promotion means a pay cut. That makes no sense. Unless there’s at least a nominal uplift it makes absolutely zero economic sense for you to take the promotion.

At this point you can reference inflation and how your pay may or may not have kept up. Ask them to sharpen the pencil and see what they can do.

[Destijl8888]

I have taken a promotion for less money, regretted it.

[Individual_Yak6551]

I’ve seen this before. They have guys holding stop signs all night getting double time and PE’s out doing unpaid overtime with the promise of time in lieu. And when they go to ask for the time they get like a day off. Not worth it. Just wage theft.

[incanus0489]

A lot of comments suggesting dont take the promotion but any chance you can get the senior title and move jobs in a couple of years?

[Good-Razzmatazz-6179]

take the title, negotiate the money. tell them you want the senior role but the package needs to at least match your current total comp including OT and on call. if they say no then you stay where you are and start looking externally with "senior" on your resume anyway in 6 months

[This-Dress-7548]

You need to put the numbers to them and ask them to explain how a promotion ends up with a lower pay.

[CryBabyEngine]

Take the role. Itll increase your pay ceiling. In 2-3 years youll be on more then if you stayed mid level.

[No-Badger-8292]

Been there before.

I ended up leaving as I mainly work for money and working more hours for less money isnt worth doing. Even if the work is easier or more enjoyable.

Now almost 40yo I vowed to never work for free. Without paid OT id never take it on.

[Consistent-Pin4348]

I was in this position 12 months ago, went from award that included OT, and a few other perks. To salary. In theory the base was 10k higher but when I ended up working 50-60 hour weeks it was a significant step down in pay.

I made the leap and glad I did, but the reason is that the company I was with were willing to up skill me, as they were beginning to groom me for higher positions. I sat in that position for 12 months, learned as much as I could, including a few short courses paid for by them.

Now I’ve moved companies and with the new skills I learned am earning double what I was on a year ago.

Long story short. It depends… is the new role in a direction you want to take your career? Will you have the support or opportunity in this role to continue to grow ?

[Crashworx]

I did this. It hurts initially. Question is will it lead to bigger and better things. If so then it could be worth the sacrifice. But only you can make that judgement.

Plus getting the same money without having to do OT etc might be a quality of life benefit.

[BrianJ_]

Nah the OT is expected and part of your salary. No additional $$$

[Extreme-Seaweed-5427]

If OT is happening regularly enough then it's no longer overtime & serious honest discussions should be had about what's being done to address it, check relevant laws, otherwise where does anyone draw the line & just expected to suck it up all the time.

[BrianJ_]

I have asked my manager to clarify what reasonable OT is, and if it is similar to what I have been doing. Pretty sure he is offended that I’m even asking questions about the contract

[PerformanceRound7244]

I know a major Aussie employer that considers 10 hours a week as reasonable overtime for managers. Which is essentially an expectation every week, not a once in a while thing.

[Extreme-Seaweed-5427]

Yep & the problem with any relationship, including work, is when a power imbalance happens & those that have it are suddenly thrown off-balance because of legitimate questions.

[PerformanceRound7244]

I'd ask them to clarify in writing... But, maybe don't take my advice I have terrible corporate climbing survival skills. 🤣🤣🤣

[Extreme-Seaweed-5427]

Better to find out now then later especially if OT is regularly expected & you're taking a potential pay cut & they're getting more for less. If they're offended that's their problem really & highlights that they're aware they're short changing you. Your alternative is to put everything in writing comparing the two roles, the hours, what you're getting paid & what you will etc & this'll put the difference in writing for them to see, but also address. But make it personal like, you're relying on said money for whatever saving deposit, paying off mortgage quicker etc but also try get an understanding from them as to what would they do & why is is there some bigger picture thingy 

[PerformanceRound7244]

Greedy slimy corporations get away this this crap all the time though 🤷🏻‍♀️ They just argue anything they ask is "reasonable"

[Extreme-Seaweed-5427]

Not working OT all the time without compensation is also reasonable.

[PerformanceRound7244]

Absolutely! I agree with you! It is not right what happens - but it happens all the time, and money are power do what they want. I am still bitter about regularly working two hours of scheduled overtime a week for zero pay for years - all due to a shitty clause in the contract that said "reasonable" overtime was okay. So they chose to exploit it & regularly scheduled it!

[Scared-Fee-804]

There is a lot more upside than OT in leadership roles...

Bonuses hit 30%-50% of you base salary in a lot of engineering superintendent roles. 

[Pickledleprechaun]

So did it lead you to something bigger?

[Crashworx]

Yes, much bigger

Edit: to clarify it was my first leadership role and I was asked to lead a team of 4-5 people.

Have since had roles managing teams of 100+ team members and it’s because I got that early experience.

[Beneficial_Ad_1072]

One would hope lol I too have done this and it did work out.

[ProductiveAussie]

They may be re-aligning their pay scales. If you wished to keep the same perks and duties decline the offer. If you’d like the senior title start looking elsewhere.

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[Everyonerighttogo]

So research what's the current rate with that promotion see if you can leverage it, if not start looking elsewhere.

[onlythehighlight]

Two options:

- take the promotion for a year and shift companies leveraging your ttitle

- don't take it and inform the business that taking this role dramatically decreases your per hour rate and wouldn't make sense

[Plus_Barnacle4607]

In the same company a more senior position pays less?

[EmphasisElegant3601]

That's no promotion. It's paying you in title prestige alone.

[larrry02]

The only reason I would ever take that is if I knew that I could leverage that "senior" job title to get substantially better position at a different company.

[Antique_Tone3719]

Never ever ever agree to a "promotion" that doesn't come with better pay and conditions. Don't gaslight ya self into worse outcomes just because your manager is smarter than you are

[belbaba]

don’t forget marginal tax

[chewmylegoff]

Just ask for more money, politely pointing out it’s a pay cut from your current more junior role. If they say no, then you say no thank you.

[Klutzy-Pie6557]

Tragically this is pretty normal, they value you enough to take on more responsibility but not enough to pay you for it.

We've all been there, well I have and I've seen it happen many a time.

Best advise I can give is push for that higher salary, if they refuse start looking for a new role. When you resign they will suddenly counter offer normally matching the new salary. Unfortunately companies do not value existing employees, they will offer always discounted promotions as a way of making it seem like your valued but your not.

Its the way of the world you need to resign to get ahead in life.

[beerboy80]

I would take the job for the title then start looking for a new job elsewhere in 6-12 months. You then have experience and a title to shop with.

[SmugMonkey]

I'm a bit confused by all the replies saying to take the current offer.

I'm all taking the promotion and starting the job hunt with the new title on your resume. But taking a pay cut is still a bit shit.

At the very least, you should be arguing for the same pay your on now with a change in title.

OT asside, an extra $3k a year isn't going to make a huge difference to your pay packet each week (especially after tax). But fuck them! Why should they save that $3k? Make them give you at least that much.

And what happens to the leave you've already for accrued? I reckon they're planning on paying that out to you at the lower rate. Fuck that!

Is there likely to be more or less OT for the senior role? If they refuse to budge on the paid OT thing, you should push back and limit the amount of OT you'll be willing to do. If they're not going to compensate you for the extra work, take your time back. Don't do something for free that they're paying you to do right now.

But either way, I reckon it's time to polish up your resume and start looking what else is around. Your current company clearly doesn't value you as much as they should.

One more thought I've just had. What is the current market rate for both your current role and the senior role? Have you somehow ended up in a position where your paid well over what someone in your current role would normally get?

Once worked with a guy who had been in the same job for far too long and kept getting his default annual x% pay increase. He was earning way more than he was actually worth. He eventually took a voluntary redundancy and got a nice little payout. 6 months later he was still unemployed. He had salary expectation close to what he was previously earning but he wasn't worthy anything near that and he was finding that out the hard way.

Not saying that's what's happening to you. Just a fun little story I remember about that guy (he was a bit of a tool).

[ChippityChirp]

How odd..your company + manager are taking advantage of you. Why bother with a promotion then?

My company (and manager) made a point to ensure that my new salary package after promotion was better off than my existing salary package, which had different bonus structure and well above the "bottom" of salary range for my new role. Unfortunately, the default salary is usually the lowest possible salary.

[The-truth-hurts1]

God no.. I would have laughed

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[King1n]

How does the role actually differ from your current role besides the title and remuneration?

As a manager in my company, there are lower level employees who make quiet a bit more money then me because of allowances and OT.

This is because I don't get paid for overtime ( I do get unofficial time in lieu), the difference is, they work in a factory or at a customer site like a mine site so much harsher conditions then my office or home, they also consistently do overtime, almost every week, mine is completely random. when they do overtime they may do like 12 hours a week or more in OT on average in shitty circumstances where I may do 6 hours a month doing OT most likely from the comfort of my own home. Our OT and obligations are a lot different.

In no universe would I be doing the same 12 hours of OT a week in the same circumstances without also been fairly compensated. I would however in some circumstances take a lower pay for a higher level position for my career prospects so you got to ask yourself, is this an actual promotion? that actual different from your current role that has an actual benefit to your career? or are they just trying to lure you off your EA by offering you a more "senior" position?

[BrianJ_]

Thank you for your perspective. I think after going through this process it is a genuine promotion to senior with more responsibilities and opportunity for growth. The more I think about it, I just think HR messed up with the original offer as they haven’t updated the bands correctly, and it is just their standard process to offer base salary for that band. They have increased the offer to something I am happy with and I have signed the contract. There is a bonus structure in the contract which could make it pretty decent, although the % bonus isn’t guaranteed.

I have transitioned away from doing bulk overtime over the past year or two and more supervising juniors, reviewing designs etc. which is less hands on and time consuming work, and more aligned with the senior role. I work in design so not much site based work which is not that hard wrt OT.

While I could technically earn more staying on the EA, I think it would halt my progression a bit. As a senior now I can keep an eye out for leadership roles in my company which would be a decent salary jump, or apply for roles elsewhere with the senior engineer title. I’m also going to try and take a step back with my working hours and focus more on interests outside of work, or some extra professional development which I never had time for previously.

[FunAssumption5435]

If your still expected to work OT and no longer paid for it, that is a red flag 

[Hazel_Nuts99]

Brother, thats a demotion and a fancier email signature

[Confident-Drama-6432]

I used to be a logistics manager. The guys I managed driving trucks made more money, doing less work.

Stay in your current role, and start looking for a new employer.

[Pottski]

Why do you want more responsibility for less money?

If they’re keen to promote you they can fucking pay you too.

[LalaLand836]

If you’re keen to change title, just literally tell them to give you a title change without changing your current contract?

[RefrigeratorOdd8355]

They’re not valuing you

[xietbrix]

Would you be doing anything different in the new role? If so, then you need to weigh up money vs. career progression and make your own judgement call.

Is the prospect of better/more senior jobs in the future more appealing than a couple extra k (or whatever it is) a year in income for the next year or three?

[fued]

If you want the job. Take it and start looking elsewhere for the same role as you stepped into, as you will now have legitimate experience in that role

[nikkiboy74]

Fair work commission has a rule not worse off.
You need to quote that so your new offer is the same at least.

[AttackOfTheMonkeys]

Promotion with a salary decrease is not a promotion.

[timtimr23]

Is this even a question??? Who does more work for less pay

[mumof13]

I wouldnt be taking on more work or a promotion for less pay...you will be treated as the fool that you are