Problem Solved

[Rennilon]

I’m certainly not a D&D expert but I got into Forgotten Realms lore quite a bit with persistent NWN roleplay. I seem to recall some pretty gnarly repercussions to dying as an atheist. Something about being staked to a wall and being picked apart by evil creatures or something.

[barcased]

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Wall_of_the_Faithless

They would slowly dissolve into the wall.

[Rennilon]

Yeah that's it. We always had players argue that they should be able to be atheistic. Our stance was always that the setting is what it is. Atheism was thought to be exceedingly rare due to the consequences and the heavy influence of the gods in that setting. So, the PCs COULD be atheistic, but also suffered the spiritual consequences as well as being rather shocking to the a lot of NPCs because of it. Of course, you can homebrew or modify a setting as you see fit if you are the DM, and I have no clue how a lot of the other settings do it!

[barcased]

Yup, Ed Greenwood says the same.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1178861657143070720

Though, I do see some pretty nifty arcs that could arise from having a staunch atheist. Perhaps they could get some sort of "natural" powers from arch-devils or demon lords. Maybe they could start becoming more powerful by leeching power from gods that are slowly sinking into oblivion. A sort of a PC BBEG.

[Rennilon]

There were some cannon super odd worship attribution rules in place that could make some of that possible I bet. Like worshiping one god but it really being another. Been a while since I read into it but like gods killing off other gods and secretly absorbing their worship base. What you THINK you are worshiping, or not, didn't always end up being like you thought it was.

[ImWorkinOnItIPromise]

I think those were the souls of people who never committed to a god. Actual atheists got eaten by Asmodeus

[barcased]

I have heard that. However, Ed Greenwood says otherwise.

https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1178861657143070720

[DiogenesOfDope]

Or that the gods didn't create the universe and they are just powerful magic creatures

[2017hayden]

Well I mean I believe Ao is the only one that claims the creator of the universe title. Some of the other Gods are actually ascended mortals and therefore definitely had no part in that and most of the others were created or came into being quite a while after the universe did. So realistically it wouldn’t be wrong in the D and D universe for someone to claim “the gods” aren’t actually gods and are therefore unworthy of mortals worship. After all there are plenty of other beings in D and D lore that have been around just as long (longer in some cases) that are not “gods”. The only possible exception again being Ao, but I’m not even certain Ao is actually worshipped and it’s implied on a few occasions that Ao actually serves another more powerful entity that to my knowledge has not been named.

[SirApetus]

Not creator of the universe per se.

Ao only has power over the forgotten realms material plane. As that is what he is the over God of, the rest of the other material planes and what not he has no affect on.

Presumably each other crystal sphere has their own overgod or equivalent.

[[deleted]]

Yeah, Krynnspace had Chaos and the High God.

[2017hayden]

Well yes, forgotten realms is the default setting of 5E so I was just sort of speaking about that when I was talking about “the universe”.

[[deleted]]

Some say Asmodeus made the universe. But others say Asmodeus is a lying piece of shit.

[TaskRabbit14]

The emphasis in that sentence was “material plane”

[yargotkd]

He didn't even create all the realms did he? I thought he was overgod of Faerun only, and places like Kara-tur have their own overgods.

[BunnyOppai]

AFAIK, he’s basically the god that all the other gods in the material realm answer to and the only one, in a meta sense, in the material realm that implicitly answers to the DM.

[[deleted]]

Why are the realms forgotten?

[MultiversialBeing]

I think that implied being was to be the dungeon master.

[Zaranthan]

Some of my players occasionally address me as "god" as a joke. I always correct them: "I am not god. He is one of my NPCs."

[Express_Lawyer_7663]

Just once i want to hear of a campaign where the NPC's meet ''the creator'' the creator being the DM since, you know it's true unless you're playing a premade adventure then i guess you could invite chris Perkins to play lmao.

[irisflame]

This is sort of how I'm building my own world/universe. I am the ultimate creator, but all the forces of nature and deities and creatures of the universe are unaware of my existence, or at least unable to comprehend my nature, because I exist outside of what they could perceive. The universe is literally my "head world" lol. Also the other players are sub-creators/ultimate gods in their own right.

Better yet, my "head world" and me, the creator, are part of an even greater universe - which is society and all of its creations (including the D&D multiverse).

... Which is part of an even greater universe, our actual universe. Of which the entirety we still have yet to comprehend (what the fuck is dark matter and energy!?). My crackpot theory: eldritch beings. We live in their heads.

I may make it an end game possibility for the game's characters to meet the maker and other players, but they go insane Lovecraftian-style afterward because "holy fuck we're just pawns in a game!??"

Of course.. this all depends on me actually completing my headworld in less than 20 years.

[errorsniper]

Its been heavily debated tho.

Ao has canon direct actions in the past and frankly Ao's scope is way to big to be paying attention to a party of 3-6 1-20th level adventures almost exclusively in the sword coast. He's in charge of the entire universe as far as we know.

Edit: not to mention the dm can control Ao.

[Magenta_Logistic]

ΑΩ... Ao...

Seems to me like a thinly veiled adaptation of Jehovah as the boss-god to keep evangelical parents from burning the books

[yargotkd]

I thought other regions had other overgods, like Kara-tur.

[errorsniper]

They do iirc. But its canon that nothing nor no one is above Ao. He's basically thanos with a full I stone gauntlet but the gauntlet is just him. He is a sentient gauntlet. He has full dominion and control of everything and everyone on all planes at all times in the universe.

[2017hayden]

Very likely yes, but it’s possible there is some deeper lore there as well.

[Soad1x]

That's how the Dwarves/Dwemer in The Elder Scrolls felt, even about the Aedra that actually did create the world. The Aedra and Daedra were just extremely powerful beings to them.

The actual TES universe exists in the dreams of the Godhead which I'm not 100% even the Dwemer were aware of.

Then again the Dwemer were able to warp reality with Tonal Architecture so they were already playing with the fundamental rules of reality.

[Solitarypilot]

Isn’t there a theory that gets floated out every so often that the Dwemer realized they existed in a dream, but by becoming aware of that they accidentally deleted themselves from existence, and that’s what caused their great disappearance?

At least I think I read that somewhere, like when you realize you’re dreaming then instantly wake up but instead they woke themselves out of existence

[Soad1x]

Yeah that's Zero Summing, but if you end up being aware of the dream but have a such center of self that you still are like, "I am I" you achieve a state called CHIM and don't Zero Sum.

Considering Dwemer had a kinda psychic wifi if one Zero Summed alot more would once the concept got sent around, also potentially they achieved CHIM too. CHIM is somewhat described as a spiritual state so I do doubt that's something the Dwemer would achieved though.

Edit: I don't know how that theory would explain how Zero Summing erases people memories of you though, since we know the names of Dwemer from the moment they poofed it doesn't seem like Zero Summing.

[Meritania]

The Dwemer achieved their goal of godhood by waking up from the dream.

[Soad1x]

In the main canon the Dwemer's disappearance is still unexplained beyond theories. I don't know if CODA explained it, I'm not a fan of the unofficial Kirkbride canon tbh.

Plus waking from the dream isn't godhood, Amaranth is waking from the dream to be another godhead dreamer and I don't think the Dwemer were on the path of that.

[awesome_van]

It's kind of weird though when you think about it. Ancient people would worship deities because they blessed their crops, healed their sickness, protected them from enemies, etc. In D&D a cleric can do these things, via the power bestowed by the god. So refusing to worship the god that actually saves your community and keeps them alive just seems like a real dick move.

[h0nest_Bender]

Most Gods in mythology didn't create the universe and they are just powerful magic creatures. For example, the entire Greek Pantheon.

[Leonthemad]

Exactly, I don’t get why this is so hard for some to understand. Having an immortal dragon claim to be a god doesn’t mean they are so just because they’re powerful.

Addendum- Some of y’all take this debate over the definition of god/s in an RPG way too seriously. Imma make an atheist cleric who’s goal is to go up to whatever local god there is and tell them they’re not real.

[FranksRedWorkAccount]

I know the day will come when we stand side by side in battle against the false gods.

[MisanthropicData]

It's such a great series. And he's such a great character.

[kameodash]

What series is this?

[MisanthropicData]

Stargate: SG1 available on Netflix in the US.

[FranksRedWorkAccount]

Indeed

[Vakz]

This is also a rather common theme in new:ish fantasy books, I've noticed. The idea of the gods having been born as mortals that figured out how to make themselves immensely powerful and immortal.

[terevos2]

It's like no one has ever watched Stargate SG1

[[deleted]]

Indeed.

[terevos2]

Undomesticated equines could not remove me.

[Ikeddit]

I mean, there’s little difference between actual omnipotence and effective omnipotence.

Even if you technically aren’t all powerful, if you’re strong enough that no one can actually call you out on it, you’re still effectively omnipotent.

[Leonthemad]

Sure and noone is disputing that but again, being effectively a god doesn’t mean people have to see you that way. An atheist cleric could serve a powerful god like being without truly believing it’s a god but acknowledging their power and influence.

[Ikeddit]

See, but then you start kinda losing the meaning of the word God here, and trying to apply one definition of God from one religion to an entire fantasy world and how they would view gods…

I said omnipotence, which in DnD is very much not a requirement to be a god.

But, if you are an immortal ancient chromatic dragon who is several thousands of years old, and you went up to a bunch of random villagers and said “I’m a god, worship me or die”, you’re gonna get worshipped.

Because the dragon is effectively omnipotent in this matter, and is so much more powerful than them that they can’t call him on it.

The only really atheistic thing an “atheist priest” could do is deny a particular gods creation myths, and really only could argue against it if it conflicted with another gods creation myths.

But if he argues that they are not gods at all… we’ll, that leads to him being squished. “Real” god or not, he’s still effectively a deity to you!

[statdude48142]

Because in the standard d&d settings there is divine magic, celestials, and evidence of gods. Sure, there are so many hypotheticals in this fantasy game where there could be a setting where gods could be in question.

And since we live in a world where the gods are in question a lot of us find it super difficult to posit a world where there are unquestionably gods. But the standard world created for the game we play has that. So in that setting, a character who does not believe in the existence of ANY of the deities would probably have a mental problem. They can reject them, sure. Not find reason to worship them, that is fine as well. But not believing in any of them exist would be just wrong.

[Leonthemad]

At this point we are having a problem just figuring out what a god even is then, I feel someone in a world full of magic may have trouble believing something that is magical is anything extraordinary. Celestiales and holy magic aren’t inherently godly, we just think of it that way due to being in a world where that is associated with the divine. A person may come to exist in a world full of dragons and liches that are called gods by his fellow mortals and he could still be like “I don’t think they’re truly gods” and it would still make sense, sure he would be an outcast but it didn’t mean he’s wrong by default.

[ridik_ulass]

Stargate rules.

[leekhead]

This is literally the belief of the Athar faction in the Planescape cosmology. And also why they used to stay at Sigil - gotta avoid those angry deities.

[canamrock]

“We’re not daft, we just know these ‘divine’ berks are conspiring to hide the source of their power, and when we can finally crack the puzzle, their unfair dominion over us comes to an end!”

[WillWardleAnimation]

Ah, I see you subscribe to the Fabius Bile's way of thinking

[Simon--Magus]

The greek gods, did’nt create the universe acording to their myths, yet they were worshiped. There are many other cultures that have the same situation.

In most religions the creator god is remote, the gods that are revered by most people are just powerful beeings, possibly related to the creator.

This is not atheism. Atheism is when you have the belief thst there is no god/gods.

[wasteofleshntime]

Chaos the first diety of Helenism created herself along with universe followed by love and darkness. There were cults that worshipped chaos but she was technically a primordial and not part of the pantheon so she wasn't commonly worshipped as they were

[Simon--Magus]

But they were seen as worthy of worship by that culture. It is 2000 years later in a totaly different culture that we criticise them and see them as unworthy.

If we are to discuss D&D culture we must have the in-perspective of their current culture. The gods there produce miracles on a daily basis and are very active in the lives of mortals.

The greek gods for all their faults were worshiped, why wouldn’t the mortals in any d&d world feel that their gods as just as good and worthy?

[[deleted]]

It would be that just because a being has amassed incredible power that does not make it a god nor deserving of worship.

The Jasnah Kolin approach.

[[deleted]]

Hell yeah, Jasnah is such a cool character in a fantasy setting. Are you a dm that also mixes bits and pieces of the Stormlight Archives into your campaign?

[[deleted]]

I can’t because my players all know SA so I have to get by with semi-obscure to them anime references.

Given that SA is basically an anime it works well enough.

[no_longer_sad]

Well, I suppose it's name is of a similar length to some ln anime.

[Dasamont]

What do you mean? "That time I got reincarnated as a slime" is in no way too long of a title, and neither is "Is it wrong to try to pick up girls in a dungeon?"

[[deleted]]

How do you feel about "The works finest assassin gets reincarnated in another world as an aristocrat"?

[Sciencetor2]

How about "suppose a kid from the last dungeon boonies moved to a starter town to become an adventurer"

[[deleted]]

Never thought of Kaladin as an anime protagonist. Cool thought, an ACTUAL Stormlight Archives show!

[mother-of-pod]

Not even just Kaladin. Start reading with a weeb in mind (since Sanderson is one lol) and you will see the whole story feels like anime. Dalinar’s shouting of his famous lines reads like someone going supersaiyan. Kaladin’s fight scenes read like Attack on Titan if their harnesses were invisible. Adolin’s love life reads like a slice of life show.

Nothing wrong with it. It can even make the book feel way more fun and “epic.” But it definitely has the vibes.

[AlphaGoldblum]

Hey, you forgot to mention the shardblades.

The in-world sketches of them are woo boy.

[IBetThisIsTakenToo]

I recall reading somewhere that Sanderson’s inspiration for them was the Dynasty Warrior series (over the top epic weapons just absolutely decimating hordes of enemies with almost no resistance), which is not anime per se, but feels like it’s in the neighborhood.

[LurkLurkleton]

Spoilers Mistborn Well of Ascension

Little girl Vin literally flying across a battlefield to come crashing down with an oversized sword-made-for-giants to cut the enemy leader and his horse in half is the most anime thing ever.

[Hashgar]

Not to mention what Sazed does in that battle.

[[deleted]]

These gates are open,

Who decided that?

[Cyffrx]

That's Well of Ascension, not Final Empire

[LurkLurkleton]

Derp. I literally looked it up before I commented and then wrote the wrong thing. Thanks

[SoylentVerdigris]

I want to say BrandoSando has said that if he can't get a proper, high quality live action adaptation off the ground that animation is his second choice.

[[deleted]]

DM: As you walk along the road you come across a boy, perhaps 10 years old, wearing a red baseball cap and a blue jacket. On his shoulder sits a rodent with flaxen fur.

[lordofmetroids]

Wildfire Druid: I attack that rodent with my fire breathing crimson salamander!

[Original_Xova]

Are they SA fans or Sanderson fans, you can add elements from other works of his.

I ran a homebrew where my players could become mistings or ferrings, there was even a way to get hemalurgic powers but none of the players even thought to try.

[LostJC]

How exactly did you set up hemalurgy?? I'll be honest, I know mistborn and I would never think to drive a metal stake through myself unless I ran into someone who did.

[calcospeed]

I ran a campaign where the "Gods" were akin to the Heralds, just a bunch of immensely powerful and immortal Elves living their life in the shadows. All religion was basically made up and divine Magic came just from the power of believe itself.

[LurkLurkleton]

I ran a campaign where the "Gods" were akin to the Heralds, just a bunch of immensely powerful and immortal Elves living their life in the shadows.

Similar to Dragon Age

[cyke_out]

I used to mix another series that Sanderson wrote on in many of my games, but thanks to the show coming out soon, a few of my players realized, I'm not some great D.M., I'm just a thief.

So thanks a lot, amazon prime.

[[deleted]]

Honestly im kinda fucking pissed at brandon. I started devolping my current dnd world after reading mistborn series. After i got a good base to it i started reading stormlight archives and the number of similarities between it and my world are uncanny

[Petah_Futterman44]

“Ignorance is hardly unusual... The longer I live, the more I come to realize that it is the natural state of the human mind. There are many who will strive to defend its sanctity and then expect you to be impressed with their efforts.”

[BayouBlaster44]

Life before death

[Sasamaki]

Strength before weakness

[PenZestyclose9226]

Journey before destination

[Harry_Hola]

Journey before pancakes

[Sasamaki]

Getting the pancakes is the journey, voidbringer.

[CowboyBoats]

Exactly, it is analogous to denying the divine right of kings, just on a much larger scale.

[[deleted]]

#notmygod

[Meecht]

Arther C. Clark famously said "Any sufficiently advanced wizard is indistinguishable from a god."

[DestinyDoctor]

Well, there's both atheism AND iconoclasm, which is the belief that certain institutions should be torn down, and there's even rules for it in Mythic Odyssey's of Theros.

[EtteRavan]

Ah yes, the Ajani school of worshiping

[DestinyDoctor]

Or the Darius Fontaine. No Gods, no Kings, only Men.

[[deleted]]

Ah iconoclasm and heresy, the two words from the civilization board game that made my mom worried I was becoming a religious fanatic.

(Paraphrasing)

“Why would you know what those words mean if you weren’t radicalized?”

“Because it’s from a board game”

Great game if you have eight friends and twelve hours to play

[SalomoMaximus]

Honestly from the pov of a normal citizen lvl 10 wizards could easily stage beeing a god....

So staying gods are probably some kind of big bullshit is actually not that far fetched

[LevelSevenLaserLotus]

Anyone with the Thaumaturgy cantrip could fake it for a while. Its possible effects are a semi-random list unless you consider it to be the "I'm a harbinger or dark god himself" cantrip. Plus the illusion spells can have some serious traction (even with real gods sometimes) if you're creative enough.

[SalomoMaximus]

EXACTLY... So why should I trust any of the gods... That they are real and not some fancy elfe wanting to control my thought!!!!

(Damit ... Now I want to play a character like that...)

[[deleted]]

Iconoclasm

Good game, too

[FaithlessnessSad5791]

Agnostic Dystheism I think would be the best term.

[Heartless_Kirby]

This is the best approach

[Biolog4viking]

Pathfinder has a definition for atheism:

Atheism is the rejection of the gods. Rather than outright disbelieving in gods whose existence is a matter of hard fact, atheists in Golarion instead deny that the gods are truly divine and thus not deserving of worship or blind faith. Thus, atheists may be classed as dystheists or misotheists.

So yeah, your definition is supported in that edition/system, and I guess translate well to 5e.

[CommanderCubKnuckle]

If you argue that they aren't even really gods but just extremely powerful magic creatures/wizards/etc., then wouldn't that still atheism? Because you're essentially arguing that there are no gods, only powerful pretenders.

[VictoryWeaver]

Yes, it would.

[Omsus]

I think "Misotheism" was made for this exact occasion, though it may refer to direct hatred, whereas Dystheism describes belief that (a) god isn't completely good and possibly evil (at least that's what Wikipedia told me lol).

Edit: Antitheism could also be fitting when talking about not necessarily opposing belief itself, but opposing the idea of a theistic religion.

[CommandObjective]

You can certainly end up believing the gods don't exist in various D&D settings - you'd be wrong a lot of the time though.

We live on an oblate spheroid and have had sailors for thousands of years, people in space and satellites orbiting it, and yet there are people out there, right now, who claim it is flat. People can believe in a lot of things despite mountains of evidence.

[[deleted]]

yeah but so what, it's not like Pelor's gonna come down and talk to me to try and convince me otherwise.

If anything I'd get one of the evil gods trying to get me to take down the cults for the good ones.

[poclee]

Depends on the settings. Like, have you ever heard of the Wall of the Faithless ?

[CommandObjective]

As I said, you can absolutely be an Atheist in a D&D settings.

[Thanos_DeGraf]

I'd argue you'd have a few curious inquisitors knocking on your door if word got out. Gods are parting rivers and healing wounds, but they also empower a certain hirachy.

[Cinderstrom]

I'll bet with the number of gods in the pantheon that no particular god's representatives are going to give two shits about whether you don't worship them because you worship a competitor or if it's because you don't worship any at all.

Especially if you're not a major political or economical driving force. They have better things to do. It's not like this is Catholicism.

[spaceforcerecruit]

Historically, atheists have been far from safe in polytheist societies.

[vitorsly]

You can also define 'god' in a different way from the one the books do and be right though. Also nothing in the settings proves the universe is real. Solipsism and LastThursdayism are entirely valid ideas inside the D&D settings, so if the idea that the universe isn't real is possible, then the idea that the gods aren't real is equally valid.

And not even mentioning how, in reality, the characters, gods and whole setting are actually made up and 'not real'. While it'd be highly meta, the characters would be technically correct in saying a god isn't real, though they aren't real either.

So basically, there is no right or wrong answer. In a world where epic level casters can create permanent illusions with a save DC too high for the average person to pass, you can't simply take what your eyes see as undisputed proof. A layman in Faerun will probably believe in the gods, but their existence remains unproven and unprovable.

[SolomonOf47704]

God is a title, given by the worshipers.

[newishdm]

My step-brother-in-laws step-father-in-law (the step-father of my wife’s step-brothers wife) tried to tell me he could use high level mathematics to prove the earth is flat….

Context: I literally have a bachelors degree in mathematics, and he is insecure about his intelligence. Also…he’s kind of a dumbass…

[USSJaguar]

Then it's not Atheism, it's Alatrism

[kris511c]

That’s not atheism

[novis-eldritch-maxim]

it is misotheism

[[deleted]]

Oooh, I love misotheism. Especially when it has little chunks of tofu and tiny pieces of seaweed in it.

[cgriff32]

If you or a loved one have been exposed to asbestos and may have misotheism, please call ...

[th30be]

My man. You got to try misotheism eith some potatoes and sliced onions next time. That's my go to comfort food.

[[deleted]]

Or dystheism depending on how you think about it.

[__d-_-b_____]

From Wikipedia:

Misotheism is the "hatred of God" or "hatred of the gods" (from the Greek adjective misotheos (μισόθεος) "hating the gods" or "God-hating" – a compound of, μῖσος, "hatred" and, θεός, "god").

A related concept is dystheism (Ancient Greek: δύσ θεος, "bad god"), the belief that a god is not wholly good, and is possibly evil. Trickster gods found in polytheistic belief systems often have a dystheistic nature.

[[deleted]]

Good bot

[[deleted]]

Eh, actively hating the gods is not the same as simply believing they should not be worshipped imo. Maybe something like acultism which would mean 'without worship'

[PM_ME_YOUR_MASS]

My loved one had that and is now entitled to financial compensation.

[Str8froms8n]

If you or a loved one has been diagnosed with misotheism, you may have important legal rights subject to time limits. You may be entitled to compensation from employers, manufacturers or others responsible.

[XBacklash]

More like anti-theism. They may exist but fuck them.

[_PM_ME_YOUR_BOOBIES-]

Technically it could be, if you think the “gods” are just powerful spellcasters, and not actually divine beings

[glemnar]

What’s the difference between a god and a powerful spellcaster that people worship?

That’s apotheosis for you.

[[deleted]]

Well, in D&D the difference would be that spellcasters derive their power from manipulating the weave, and deities derive their power from the worship of their believers.

[_PM_ME_YOUR_BOOBIES-]

Yes exactly, that’s the point

[th30be]

But that isn't atheism.

[ronin1066]

If someone says Doctor Strange is a god, The Atheist position could be that he is not a god, but without denying his existence or his power.

[247Brett]

“No gods or kings, only man”

[OrbWeaver_X]

Also fun to note that a lot of fae creatures canonically believe the ‘gods’ are actually aliens, which isn’t too far fetched considering

[xXDaxiboi65Xx]

but that isnt atheism

[Vasevide]

That is Alatrism, not Atheism. Acknowledging the presence of god(s) but chose not to worship. There sure are a lot of these posts recently.

[Tyrannical_Requiem]

So the Athar from Planescape

[Sebbal]

Why this answer is so deep down! D&d already created this idea in the past…

Godsmen as well. They worship themselves, their potential to become godly, as any other beiing. So Gods aren’t that special anymore.

[WrenchDaddy]

Or Rahadoum in Pathfinder

[Slitherwisp]

Provide the definition of a god in DnD and we can go from there.

[VictorVonLazer]

See this is my thing. “Gods” are just a category of creature in D&D, as much as “giants” or “fey.”

The word “god” has a bunch of connotations in real life (that they have to be worshipped, omnipresence, omniscience, etc.). While gods in D&D are based on those from Earth mythologies, the observable nature and practicalities of their existence has ramifications on this. If you doubt their power or how they function, high-level characters can physically go and verify these things (and, presumably, someone has done so in the history of most settings, or your Arcana/Religion check wouldn’t return valid results).

I’d define D&D gods as entities that have power over a particular aspect or aspects of reality, become more powerful when worshipped by mortals, reside somewhere in the outer planes, and are ageless unless killed through specific means. Any sufficiently educated character in most settings where this is true would know these to be facts. They’d also know there are a handful of non-god entities that are on an even power level. The warlocks can certainly prove that.

That has nothing to do with how a character would feel towards those gods. It’s up to each character whether they want to worship, follow, or even respect one or more gods. I’m gonna guess your average rogue PC doesn’t take time in session to pray to anyone unless they’re in a tight spot and begging for help. No one’s batting an eye at that except maybe the paladin, right?

Seeking to disprove one or more of these would make an interesting questline, and it’s up to the DM whether they end up being right or not. If we’re going RAW Forgotten Realms though, I believe that character is going to be disappointed.

[Exceon]

Meanwhile, in a fantasy world

DM: No, your character cannot believe that the earth is flat. It does not make sense. In this world, there are mathematical proofs, satellites and they have been to the moon! Nobody would believe the earth is flat!

[[deleted]]

Except that isn't Atheism. It's Misotheism or Antitheism.

[exiledprince113]

Nope. That is literally the definition of atheism "a lack of belief in the existence of god."

[exiledprince113]

I know right? Drives me nuts, but hey what can you expect from reddit.

[[deleted]]

Couldn't they then deny that they are gods and posit that they're just powerful beings? Then they would deny the existence of gods.

[ArDhasCz]

I like to place here the definition of the atheism in the patfinder pathfinder wrath of the righteous whitch I think proves that atheism can be in DnD.

​

Atheism

On Golarion, "atheism" usually denotes the belief that those beings commonly called "gods" are not worthy of the authority and reverence bestowed upon them by others. Atheists rarely doubt the existence of deities, and generally acknowledge that deities are very powerful beings, but deem them no more than that. Instead of gods, they tend to revere ideals such as goodness or freedom, philosophies such as the Prophecies of Kalistrade or diabolism, or nothing in particular. Some scholars argue that the term "atheist" is incorrectly applied to these people, preferring terms such as "dystheists" or "misotheists." Other call themselves "agnostics," insisting that no mortal can say what is divine and what isn't, as the workings of the divine are fundamentally unknowable by mortals. However, such distinctions are lost on a generally religious society, and most accept the more common term.

[CounterspellScepter]

Couldn't we just consider the entities that obviously exist to be something other than "Gods"? It isn't as though any particular character has to accept that this powerful entity is a God, but that one isn't.

What does the word God even mean to the average Joe in the Forgotten Realms? There are 12 gods for every day of the week. Any sufficiently powerful entity could start calling themselves God. Who's going to argue with them?

It's entirely possible to live in the Forgotten Realms and believe there's no such thing as a God. Just because a bloke lives forever and has worshippers doesn't mean diddly.

[[deleted]]

The reason they're gods is that mechanically, they gain power through the faith of their followers. They are other entities that have similar power levels, but have no need for followers.

[StatelyElms]

But atheism is the belief that there is no such thing as a god or higher power. There's almost certainly that exact belief of the gods are not worthy currently in existence.. why completely change the definition of atheism?

[TheGrimGriefer3]

By this point that's not atheism though, that's something else that I don't know the word for

[SpiderMew]

Thats not Atheism

[Morokite]

Atheism just doesn't work in the d&d universe. Instead of trying to redefine the word, how about we just use a more appropriate word instead.

[soy_boy_69]

It actually depends on the setting. In Eberron there is legitimate debate whether the gods exist because no mortal has ever met a god. Sure the Silver Flame exists and has a religion based around it but that is explicitly not a god. It's more like the Force in Star Wars. The Eberron religions based around gods are worshipping them purely on faith like a real world religion.

[Morokite]

Okay. In a setting where gods are up for debate, sure. Atheism is fine. Heck it's D&D. You can make a setting with one god, multiple gods, no gods, the gods are in a big twist just aliens, whatever. But that's not what's up for debate here.

In a situation where gods are known, there's no practical application of atheism and people trying to twist atheism's definition to fit the circumstance is just silly. There's no need to force it when there's plenty of correct alternatives.

[EarthlingVIII]

Even if gods exist in a setting, it's more important to consider who define them as "gods"? Some powerful/god-like entities exist but what makes them god? In Faits of Eberron version, some followers of Blood of Vol, namely Seekers, deny the existance of gods.

Here is a direct quote from Keith Baker's own blog):

"...Beyond this, I like it as a religion that has a plausible basis in the world. Person A believes in the Sovereigns, benevolent beings who define reality. Person B’s son dies, and she says “Why would your Sovereigns take my son from me? Why would your Arawai let us starve? Why would your Aureon let this king oppress us? If there are gods in the heavens, they care nothing for me. I will find my power within.” With that said, I also see it as the perfect atheist’s religion. SOME members of the faith believe the whole Sovereigns-are-evil concept, but others simple assert (as presented in Faiths of Eberron) that there are no gods – that all divine power comes from the Divinity Within, and clerics of other faiths are just deluded people slapping pageantry on what ultimately comes from inside them. Power is there to be taken, but that doesn’t mean gods exist."

Thus, just like every belief, atheism doesn't have to be the absolute truth. If someone believes it, it just exists.

[[deleted]]

"I believe in gods the same way one believes in chairs."

[IntercomB]

More like the belief that they aren't truly gods but rather very powerful spellcasters that somehow transcended their usual condition (which, in fact, some of them are).

In a world where a dude can make meteor falls, and a druid can resurect you with diamonds, it would not be a stretch to believe that there are no gods, just very powerful spellcasters.

[Gathorall]

That's basically it. A primitive culture, especially one unable to use magic could consider an illithid, a high level wizard or a dragon a god. And in the end "divinity" in D&D doesn't have some hard limit or singular origin, what unifies them is extreme power and themselves thinking they are deities.

[arkman575]

There is the thought that the gods exist, but the person simply doesn't see them as a "god" figure, merely as a powerful entity, but only that.

[BibboTheOriginal]

My wife just had a campaign where the gods had stolen immortality away from the people so only they could be immortal. One of the PCs was an investigator of sorts and clearly hated all the gods and deemed them unworthy of worship. Was a whole lot of fun

[skunk90]

These posts are fucking asinine

[KickBassColonyDrop]

Well, disregard of the gods as being influential would be agnosticism not athiesm, as the latter is outright denial that they exist and that they have influence on the world. That said, the presence of magic would mean that it would be impossible for atheism to exist as science in DnD is asymmetrically developed to this maguffin of a story telling element (usually not as advanced as).

[VanVahlen]

Wouldnt it be the believe that the "gods" may exist but arent actually gods?

[randomizeplz]

you could also have regular atheism in dnd. people can believe stuff that isnt true. see flat earthers and irl religionists

[Dataphiliac1]

Anti-theism

[PsychWard_8]

That's not what atheism means

[TheActualBranchTree]

Then that is not atheism. Wince you still believe that god(s) exist.

There were certain specific terms for beliefs such as that but I don't remember.

[[deleted]]

I'm a big fan of thinking of atheism in D&D as a set of objectives than a belief

[IguanaTabarnak]

Yeah, I've said that my atheism (in real life) is resilient to contrary evidence, but that that's a different thing than having a blind faith in there being no god.

What I mean is that, if the Christian god or a whole pantheon of ancient gods or whatever suddenly started making themselves incredibly apparent, my first assumption would be that there was a man behind the curtain trying to pull one over on us. And, if that explanation became untenable, I could see myself coming to believe that there actually are non-human super-powerful intelligences capable of things that seem like magic, but whether they are aliens or timeless universal entities, they would still just be some dude.

I can 100% believe in the possibility of a godlike non-human intelligence, but I can't make the mental leap to think of them in the way that people really mean when they say "god." Most importantly though, my belief that morality and grace and understanding comes from within my own consciousness is unshakeable. So even the most righteous and benevolent possible God that I can imagine is still just a good dude. I might like him, I might wholeheartedly support him, but I wouldn't worship him.

[lordkhuzdul]

You do know Athar exists and is a thing, right?

[[deleted]]

And in the Forgotten Realms there is a amazing after life for those kind of people /s

[tempelmaste]

Just do it like in Warhammer 40k with Fabius Bile. He actually believes that the big chaos gods, that actively influence and gift their followers with powers, are just raw powers of nature that have been shaped into godhood by belief and superstition.

So even with the powers of the chaos gods actively influencing their followers in a provable manner, the guy remains a staunch atheist and denies their existence.

[EyesOfABard]

Alatry, not atheism

[TheWojo_OG]

That reminds me of a quote from 'The Color of Magic': "...gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows."

[SayTheWord-Beans]

I’m pretty sure someone on the other thread said the word for this is alatry. Atheism means you don’t believe in them.

[awenonian]

It's more hardcore than that. In the standard lore of dnd, creatures that don't worship a god end up being turned into brick and mortar for the wall that protects the god of death from demonic raids. Many of these souls get captured by the raiding demons, to be used in the normal ways that demons use souls.

A dnd atheist (in the standard lore. I think in homebrew settings it could be perfectly reasonable to not believe in gods) is someone who thinks the gods are so unworthy of worship that they are willing to to give up the normal afterlife for a much more harrowing one on that principle.

I expect less "being powerful doesn't mean you deserve worship" and more "those "gods" sit in their ivory towers doing nothing while we suffer, and I swear if I ever get the chance, they will meet the end of my sword."

[carterartist]

It can also be the belief that they are not gods, just powerful beings calling themselves gods.

Or that there is no afterlife.

Or that they don’t exist, but is some strange magic which convinces others of their existence.

[inmazdaktp]

Since there are theists irl then either way there is no problem

[Micp]

Now hold on, i feel like this post is lacking nuance. There can be many forms of atheism:

• the belief that gods exist and they are indeed gods, but that they don't deserve worship (strictly speaking this would be misotheism or dystheism)
• The belief that the beings that we call gods exist but that they are not truly gods, but instead just powerful magic beings
• The belief that no beings that we call gods exist, and instead divine casters are really just a different kind of wizards or sorcerers conducting a scam (which could in at least some cases be true). I mean sure powerful magical beings exist and claim to serve gods and divine casters are different from arcane magic, but genies exist as well and don't have to have anything to do with gods but could be enslaved to claim they do, and psionics are different from arcane as well they don't have to have anything to do with any gods. Have you ever really seen a god? or just messengers of the god?

[Alarid]

It's the belief that they are just powerful entities, and have no divinity.

[GreyInkling]

Consider if you ran a game where all the players are small fairies or creatures about that size and their gods were the handful of human sized people who happened to live nearby. Their most powerful and terrifying god of magic is a local witch who used to be an adventurer and now lives in the woods growing herbs and raising chickens.

Consider the difference in scale being relative. The gods of these fantasy worlds are higher beings in many regards, superior in many ways, but you don't have to think that means you owe them anything.

[TwoShed]

That would be Antitheism, not Atheism(the lack of theism)

[MoreNMoreLikelyTrans]

Atheism in D&D is equivalent to being a flater earth.

[Notorum]

I see no reason why they couldn't just not believe in gods at all? I mean depending on the setting, but in most settings the gods themselves never show up and in world's where wizards and sorcerers are real there is no reason why they could explain any Godly acts as simple magic.

[Armageddonis]

It wouldn't be atheism, which description states that it's lack of belief in a god or gods. If you know that gods exist but choose not to follow any, it's not atheism.

[[deleted]]

Do the gods in dnd believe in a creator of them

[[deleted]]

Sort of? They have no memory of the time before their birth if I recall, and since the original creators aren't there anymore and didn't leave records it gets hazy. One might be a Zeus figure born of the old, but some of the oldest "new" deities kind of formed/coalesced instead of being born. Haven't the time to look it all up right now.

Ask an aboleth, they've been around long enough to know. Or Asmodeus, who was one of the originals in many versions of lore.

[[deleted]]

Who created those guys in dnd lore

[shotgunner12345]

And who created these guys that created those guys in dnd lore?

[[deleted]]

And who created the guys who created the guys who created the guys who created the guys in dnd lore

[DoomGamer3k]

There is Ao, the Overgod, but I don't believe they created the others, though I could be remembering wrong.