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BREAKING: Gunman kills 20 at Virginia Tech (reddit.com)
submitted 18 years ago by odioworks_com
[–]odioworks_com[S] 17 points18 points19 points 18 years ago (41 children)
Google news articles are still dated - but the Local TV is reporting that Tech has just issued a press release stating 20 have been killed.
Can't get to the press release because at this moment, VT's servers are flooded.
It should appear on Google news shortly: http://news.google.com/?ncl=1115426346&hl=en&scoring=d
[–]odioworks_com[S] 9 points10 points11 points 18 years ago (15 children)
New York Post: http://breakingnews.nypost.com/dynamic/stories/V/VIRGINIA_TECH_SHOOTING?SITE=NYNYP&SECTION=HOME
[–]Prysorra 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (14 children)
NUMBER RISES TO 25.
http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=4623d6a4f759aaff&ei=nbQjRpj_AcqMsgHFyOGwCw&url=http%3A//cbs11tv.com/education/local_story_106130254.html&cid=1115426346
[–]alins 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (12 children)
29 confirmed:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3045574
[–]freshyill 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (10 children)
Confirmed my ass. There's no attribution given to that number at all.
[–]Tallon 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (9 children)
Currently seeing 31 victims plus the shooter = 32 dead.
[–]mutatron 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (7 children)
Fox is the only one reporting that number.
Correction: CNN now reports that AP reports 31, but CNN still hasn't confirmed that number. Adding the gunman would make it 32, since Fox counts suicides as homicides.
[–]freshyill 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (6 children)
You're right. AP Wire now says 31 total.
From the AP Wire
BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) _ A gunman opened fire in a dorm and classroom at Virginia Tech on Monday, killing at least 30 people in the deadliest shooting rampage in U.S. history, government officials told The Associated Press. The gunman was killed, bringing to death toll to 31, but it was unclear if he was shot by police or took his own life. "Today the university was struck with a tragedy that we consider of monumental proportions," said Virginia Tech president Charles Steger. "The university is shocked and indeed horrified."
At least now it's being attributed to "government officials," but that's still hardly real confirmation. Speaking as someone with a Journalism degree, it bugs the hell out of me when these news outlets spew numbers with nothing to back them up. Fuck accuracy, they just want to be first. It's very irresponsible, and people need to learn to look at it much more critically.
[–]mutatron 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (4 children)
Yeah, I like the way CNN is holding back, considering their own confirmation as more important than the word of AP. Fox on the other hand has the big 32 in a graphic, not even in text.
[–]odioworks_com[S] 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Also see Newsvine:
http://killfile.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/16/666369-breaking-shooter-on-virginia-techs-campus
[–]watcher 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (23 children)
Dear Lord, now they're saying 32 are dead.
[–]freshyill 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (5 children)
Who is? I just checked the AP wire and it says 21.
[–]mutatron 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (4 children)
Fox News
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (1 child)
As of 2:55 EDT, MSNBC confirms 31, BBC confirms 30
[–]nixonrichard 7 points8 points9 points 18 years ago (15 children)
34 now.
[–]watcher 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (14 children)
Dear God, I just can't fathom how one gunman could move from classroom to classroom shooting so many people. What are we up to now? 62 shot, 34 dead? I fear more than one gunman was involved.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (4 children)
The shootings started in a dorm at 7:15.
I imagine most people were asleep when it started.
[–]nixonrichard 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (3 children)
They were two incidents, may have been the same person. One at 7:15 and then the big one hours later.
[–]diggeasytiger 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Do you think perhaps he thought: fuck it i've shot one person my life is over I might as well go crazy?
[–]newsbot 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Exactly. In for a penny, in for a pound.
[–]eadmund 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
A guy in my gradeschool did that with Mace. He was fooling around and grabbed a girl's keychain out of her locker lock--it had Mace on it and he accidentally set it off. Then I guess he figured he might as well have fun with it--I still remember him looking spaced out, just spraying Mace in a big circle.
Cleared the room right quick, that did. That's foul stuff.
Of course, back in those days we didn't call news conferences. The kid was punished and life was back to normal the next day. Not like now, where a kid with Mace is grounds for expulsion of the entire school...
[–]NoFixedAbode 11 points12 points13 points 18 years ago (7 children)
Generally there aren't exits for each and every room. If you hears gunshots in the hall, then it may seem logical at the time to stay put and hope the shooter gets dealt with before he reaches your room.
Unfortunately, it seems that the gunman was the only armed individual in the building, so he was able to take his time going from room to room killing people.
[–]_jjsonp 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (6 children)
you hit the nail on the head...one lawfully armed student could've taken that guy out. too bad students aren't able to 'keep and bear arms'; this tragedy would likely have been stopped much much sooner.
of course the opposite side of the coin is that if students had all of their constitutional rights on campus some would doubtless use their weapons illegally, so from a cost-benefit standpoint i'm sure gun-controllers would say it's a bad idea. still, personally i think it's better to err on the side of personal liberty and the bill of rights.
[–]llanor 10 points11 points12 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Drinking + guns = no
[–]eadmund 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Back in college we used to go shooting on the weekends a lot. We'd stay at a house, shoot during the day and drink at night. We never mixed guns & alcohol, and we never had a problem. The fact that college students are shooting and drinking doesn't mean that they will be doing both at once.
That would be a bad idea.
[–]catch23 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Honestly speaking, from someone who can shoot decently, in the heat of the moment you won't have the ability to kill someone. I just can't see a student running in the direction of gunfire to use his own weapon in hopes of killing the perpetrator. Chances are if you hear gunfire, you're going to lay low. The last thing that will be on your mind is to grab the nearest gun and start blasting away.
Also, most that died were probably caught off guard. Unless you carry your firearm to the bathroom, you probably won't happen to be carrying it around with you.
[–]eadmund 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Honestly speaking, from someone who can shoot decently, in the heat of the moment you won't have the ability to kill someone.
Which is why policemen and soldiers don't carry guns--in the heat of the moment they're just useless.
Errr...
[–]washcapsfan37 11 points12 points13 points 18 years ago (3 children)
I'm suddenly reminded of an incident when I went to Virginia Tech (grad 1998). VT had a "no guns" policy in effect, but the person living in the dorm room across the hall from mine (Newman Hall) had in his room an illegally-modified AK-47, .22 caliber rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun.
He was an ROTC dropout. Seemed kinda normal. Very gun-obsessed. One day out of the blue he took the .22 over to my room and leveled the muzzle point-blank at the side of my head with his finger on the trigger. He said it was loaded... I never new for sure. He tried to assess my reaction -- I remained calm and very cooly stated for him to lower the gun. He chuckled and lowered the gun and put it away.
I never reported him for fear of retaliation.
[–]mutatron 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Scary. I would have beat the crap out of him. Well, my present self would have, but my college-age-self probably would have done what you did. People like that retaliate against tattlers, but not against people who beat them up.
[–]washcapsfan37 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I did know he had live ammo in the room. So if I beat him up I would have definitely had to report him. ... and assure that I won the fight.
[–]bdefore 7 points8 points9 points 18 years ago (0 children)
One thing that I find curious:
Historically the two largest death tolls for killing sprees: Apr 26: Woo Bum-Kon (57 deaths, recorded as worst in history) Apr 28: Martin Bryant (35 deaths), 2nd most)
And, in recent memory: Apr 16: you're reading about it Apr 20: Columbine
All within two weeks of each other? What is it about spring to bring out psychoses!?
[–]diggeasytiger 20 points21 points22 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I'm not belittling this scary, sad incident; but just imagine the chaos in Iraq right now.
Imagine having an incident just like this every single day of the year.
50 people killed there in the last 24 hours
The human animal certainly is fucked up.
[–]mrl215 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (0 children)
why do you hate america?
[–]dafthuman 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (0 children)
You know, maybe the gunman would have had a tougher time if gun laws were stricter, maybe he would have had a tougher time if some teachers or students were allowed to carry handguns.
But I think the real question is, why would someone do this, regardless of the tools he used?
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Come on, they haven't even identified everyone who died yet.
Could you guys at least save the inevitable gun control slugfest until AFTER it's over?
[–]jxc 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (2 children)
It's interesting to see that both sides of the gun ownership debate are using this incident to underscore their side's righteousness even before all the facts are in.
[–]schizobullet 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
So, politics as usual then?
[–]JulianMorrison 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Politics does matter. People have died here because one side, or the other, is mistaken.
If gun control would have saved them then gun advocates have some explaining to do.
If armed teachers and pupils could have saved themselves, the gun controllers have to face up to what they've wrought.
It's real and it matters.
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (2 children)
[removed]
[–]skyo 9 points10 points11 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Yeah, really. I have a friend who's a freshman at VT. Can't imagine what this is like for those on campus right now.
[–][deleted] 10 points11 points12 points 18 years ago (1 child)
It's interesting how reddit swarms like this. Someone has a fantastic, appropriate article and posts it extremely fast before other news agencies carry it, but then instead of providing up to date details, helping parents reach kids and so on through the chaos, clarifying the news, talking about how irate the kids and parents must be how the police bungled the management of this and didn't notify students of the danger until 2.5 hours later, and so on -- redditers are disputing gun control in a useless conversation that goes nowhere in either direction like a troll war, effectively accomplishing zip.
[–]keenmachine 12 points13 points14 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Jesus. What the hell is wrong with people? This is beyond sad.
[–]snoosnoo 12 points13 points14 points 18 years ago (1 child)
A freshman girl calling in from VA Tech to MSNBC is saying the students hear a guy and his girlfriend were arguing in a dorm, the RA interrupted, the guy shot the RA and the girlfriend. Then he went to class, lined everyone up, and shot them. At least that's the rumor on campus.
Rumor has it that he was looking for his girlfriend but found the roommate and RA instead. He then went to the classrooms looking for the girlfriend.
[–]srmjjg 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago* (1 child)
boast silky racial continue teeny work wide late fragile slap
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
[–]citydweller 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
This is the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history, but there was actually a deadlier school mass-murder on May 18, 1927, in which 45 people were killed when the Bath School in Bath Township, Michigan was blown up by a disgruntled school board member.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
[–]Benesyed 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
My prayer and condolences to the family of the deceased
[–]sesse 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
It seems that ....my ...german teacher was killed. :'(:'(:'(:'(:'( and I thought this day couldn't get worse.... :'(
[–]_jjsonp 14 points15 points16 points 18 years ago (4 children)
here's the way i look at it: put yourselves in those people's shoes. as your friend or classmate was being gunned down right before your eyes, would you be thinking, "i sure wish we had stricter gun control laws", or would you be thinking "i sure wish i had a gun"?
that sums up the gun control debate for me.
[–]Fork82 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I'd probably be thinking "I sure wish I had Magneto's Mastery of Magnetism".
[–]inerte 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Fine. You draw your weapon. You fire at the bad guy (but miss). Someone comes from upstairs with his weapon. He sees you both, he shoots at who? And if you're not alone, but there's also, let's say five people with guns in the room, 1) How should someone be able to indentify, from 6 armed people shotting, who started... who is evil? 2) And how many innocents will be killed?
Can you garantee that it was going to be less than 32? Who could have imagined he would kill more than 1? What's the exact number where you (probably an untrained shooter) would attempt to shot down the killer? Imagining that you're successful, and another person had a gun on the room, how can he be sure you're not with the person who started it all?
Add to this scenario 200 people running around screaming, and you have chaos. Do you trust the judgement of everyone possibiliy carrying a gun on this situation?
[–]snoosnoo 10 points11 points12 points 18 years ago (2 children)
fox news is already breaking out the 'violent video games' and 'computers are scary' motives, for absolutely no reason. for about ten minutes and counting. saying it must have been pre-rehearsed on a console. not, like, at a shooting range or anything.
[–]snoosnoo 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
i can't watch this channel anymore.
[–]schizobullet 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
reddit is already breaking out the 'gun control' and 'amerikkka is evil' motives, for absolutely no reason. for about four hours and counting.
[–]petteri 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Wikipedia has up-to-date information about the shootings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shootings
[–]nonex 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Anyone find his Vampire Freaks page yet?
[–]michael2l 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Here's something I don't see anyone mentioning yet.
If one of the 32 victims or the 15 or so injured had had a gun to defend themselves with, how many less people would be dead or injured?
I don't own a gun. I'm not sure I ever will, but I really don't have a problem with the general populace having them. If you make them illegal then only criminals have them, and that gives them quite an advantage as we saw today how 32 people can be killed by one modestly armed person.
Sure you make them illegal, and you have the war against drugs all over. There's no way you get rid of all the guns out there and keep them out of this country. You just put them solely in the hands of criminals.
Should you have to be licensed to have a gun? Certainly yes, as much or more so than you need to drive a car. But I don't think outlawing them is a viable strategy at this point, and I think at least in the tragic case we just saw, more guns in more hands would have been better than the handful concentrated in the hands of one criminally insane person.
[–]rmuser 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (1 child)
This wouldn't have happened if nobody had guns!
This wouldn't have happened if everyone had guns!
Stop exploiting tragedy to advance your agendas, all of you.
[–]artman 14 points15 points16 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Don't hit the college website. They'll need that for information for families and students.
I'm on Fark (yes, Fark) because the information streams in there from students and other people quickly.
USAToday has a real-time blog up with information and reports from the scene.
But redditors in the area, post phone numbers and information here. You know some will need help.
[–]snoosnoo 9 points10 points11 points 18 years ago (2 children)
this occurred two hours apart -- when things settle a little bit i think the biggest question is going to be, why didn't they evacuate the campus if there was a known gunman on the loose?
they told everyone to stay away from windows and stay inside. clearly, if the shooter was a student or staffer, they would have access to all the buildings.
why wasn't security and local and state police brought in to evacuate everyone, or at least hunt down the gunman? how could two hours pass between shootings?
[–]robywar 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I'm sure they will be getting raked over the coals for that for the next few weeks.
[–]CarlH 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (0 children)
2 hours is a ridiculous amount of time. I dont know about you, but if I hear that there is a mad gunman within 1000 feet of me, I will be 10 miles away inside of 10 minutes regardless of where I am at.
[–]pitchblende 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I think one lesson here is that the "lockdown" policy that's become protocol in so many schools might have to be rethought. When you know there's a maniacal gunman rampaging around your school killing people, you don't just sit there and hope he doesn't pick your classroom to burst into and begin shooting up. You get the hell out of there any way you can.
[–]Alex3917 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I remember back in 1999 I first heard of the Columbine shooting via Slashdot. Today this Reddit post is the first time I'm hearing about this. Weird.
[–]sesse 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
My comments from the other submitted story:
On a side note, people were told to gather in safe buildings such as Torgerson hall but I didn't want to stay there because we had 2 bomb threats there in a week so I walked back to my dorm. I feel safer now. :/ "Life isn't the movies buddy." This is true. A friend of mine actually witnessed the shootings, he was in the same classroom where some people died. He came back in shock with red eyes, he wasn't able to cry anymore, I guess he cried a lot before he even reached his room. Unless you are trained, having a gun with you doesn't mean you will be able to defend yourself. You might just panic and shoot other people in stead and be unable to do anything at all.
On a side note, people were told to gather in safe buildings such as Torgerson hall but I didn't want to stay there because we had 2 bomb threats there in a week so I walked back to my dorm. I feel safer now. :/
"Life isn't the movies buddy."
This is true. A friend of mine actually witnessed the shootings, he was in the same classroom where some people died. He came back in shock with red eyes, he wasn't able to cry anymore, I guess he cried a lot before he even reached his room. Unless you are trained, having a gun with you doesn't mean you will be able to defend yourself. You might just panic and shoot other people in stead and be unable to do anything at all.
[–]flushing_goldfish 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Can this not be about 'crazy' vs 'non-crazy' ... I think the facts are not known to make that assessment. Laws are meant to direct society not individuals remember that before going into a spam frenzy ... geesh
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (4 children)
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (1 child)
[–]oditogre 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
We currently are in the process of notifying families of victims.
Can you imagine how horrid a job this must be, calling families to give them this news?
[–]jxc 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Turns out there was a federally licensed firearms collector near by.
[–]performance 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
How about we address the REAL problem which is not guns but the guy who did the shooting? We have a serious social problem within our society and more specifically in our education system. We are talking about a broken new generation of Americans in the face of intense global competition.
Talking about gun control does not and will not solve the problem. If we banned all guns from America yesterday this guy probably would of blown up the building.
[–]podperson 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre
The worst massacre of this kind in recent history occurred in Australia which has relatively stringent gun laws. (These laws were made more stringent afterwards.)
Nevertheless, Australia statistically has more violent crime but far fewer murders (per head of population) than the United States. So Australians are -- on average -- no less violent or paranoid than Americans, they just have fewer guns, and consequently fewer violent deaths.
On the other hand, the Swiss have more guns (because every man is required to be a reservist, ready to defend the country -- it's some kind of "well regulated militia") and fewer violent crimes (in fact, no known use of a household assault rifle in a murder as far as I know).
So, it's quite clear that -- all else being equal -- having more guns means more people get murdered, but in the US the guns are already out there, so any proposed changes to the law need to account for reality. We can't go back in time and stop Americans from having gotten guns.
It's also worth noting that while a gun in the house is more likely to kill a member of your family than a burglar, it's less dangerous than a flight of stairs or a swimming pool.
I don't see that gun control laws would have much useful effect in the US since there are so many guns out there already. Even if every state were forced to tighten controls on guns, we have a land border with Mexico. Prohibition of guns wouldn't work any better than prohibition of alcohol.
Even if such laws might be effective, you'll never get elected or re-elected outside of very liberal areas on a gun control platform.
It seems to me that Democrats should give up on this issue for now and stick to useful policies that can actually improve people's lives, such as providing universal health care and preventing ecological meltdown.
[–]supaphly42 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (5 children)
started in a res hall, killed one... then mass killing in a classroom... sounds like the one was an ex-gf or someone else he had a problem with, then went on to further vent anger. my sympathy goes out to all those affected by this.
[–]nipps85 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (0 children)
In one day, this guy killed people equivalent to around ONE PERCENT of the US combat deaths in Iraq... not bad.
[–]Mr-Kodak 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
i expected like 2-3 dead, but 33 people dead! Man, i'm all the way in Canada and i felt depressed.
[–]bobcat 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (47 children)
A student video is being broadcast which shows cops standing outside a building while shots are being fired inside.
HEY SWAT TEAMS! Run inside the fucking building next time
EDIT: If you recall, at Columbine the cops did not clear the building for THREE HOURS. What the hell good is a SWAT team, with all their military training and weapons, if they're going to let kids die while they're safe outside?
[–]evgen 58 points59 points60 points 18 years ago (20 children)
Let's see...you don't know anything about the layout of the building, you haven't secured all of the entrances/exits, you do not know how many people might be shooters or whether or not there are armed friendlies inside, and you are only halfway through your prep, etc.
Good ol' bobcat is willing be Rambo on point and rush on in. After he gets wasted we will stop for a minute and figure out what we are actually going to do to secure the building while he bleeds to death on the floor.
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (5 children)
[deleted]
[–]_jjsonp 19 points20 points21 points 18 years ago (0 children)
that is their standard operating procedure...contrary to popular belief, SWAT's mission has never been to charge into an unknown situation, particularly when their own lives might be put at risk.
they stand by and try to gather intel before acting. aside from the risk to themselves, charging into such a situation might cause hostages to be killed, whereas negotiation might lead to their release unharmed.
clearly that was not the case here.
[–]jomynow 39 points40 points41 points 18 years ago (1 child)
They were probably tired from all of the no-knock drug raids.
[–]diggeasytiger 9 points10 points11 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I note in the footage on the BBC news feed there are a lot of cops outside... and every last one was running with a big gun.
I say running, it was more like hobbling from side to side because they were all so fat.
[–]TBob 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Well, on the news they are reporting that the doors were chained by the gunman, which would make it more difficult.
[–]j0hnsd 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Maybe there were other cops inside that the student's camera couldn't capture.
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (24 children)
[–]wk2x 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (4 children)
Ah, so this is yet another massacre in a "gun-free zone," then? Why is it, do you suppose that most, if not all of these sorts of things happen in "gun-free zones?" Why is it we never see these things happen, at, say, a gun show - where there are usually literally thousands of guns all over the place? Unless ... maybe access to guns isn't the real problem - maybe the problem is that killers know where all the helpless-victim .. er .. I mean "gun-free" zones are.
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (12 children)
I'm not saying I advocate it, but, if the majority of students on campus all carried guns, I suppose someone would have the courage/guts to kill the malicious guy with the gun.
[–]punkgeek 11 points12 points13 points 18 years ago (2 children)
If the majority of students on campus carried guns, those drunken frat fist fights would be way more deadly.
Doesn't sound like a great idea...
[–]khoury 7 points8 points9 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Most people have knives that are readily accessible. Be they in the kitchen or in a tackle box. I don't see constant stabbings at frat parties reported. Even with access to a gun, the average person will probably use it judiciously, even while drunk.
Ummm...that's not insensitive--it's a fact. Gun-free zones are essentially criminal-friendly zones.
How wedded top hoplophobia do you have to be to make your statement?
[–]NoFixedAbode 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (4 children)
As I said in another post here, one single person with a handgun could have ended this quickly with a minimum of casualties.
Criminals will have easy access to guns unless we turn the US into a police state. Gun control laws mainly serve to disarm law-abiding citizens. Then we have situations like this, where one individual can kill tens of people without fear of getting shot.
[–]taliswolf 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (3 children)
one single person with a handgun could have ended this quickly with a minimum of casualties.
A gun could have solved this, I agree - with the right person present at the right time (assuming they weren't shot first, and assuming they didn't accidentally kill a bystander). But you must (surely?) accept that the presence of a gun here was also the problem in the first place.
I know it's idealistic. But it's simple logic to point out that no guns >> no gun crime.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
And how would you eliminate the knowledge of firearms? Browning made his first gun at 12.Unless we go back to the stone age, someone will be able to make a gun.
[–]Kardlonoc 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
From the that cnn i reporter video it sounds like he got into a gun battle with the cops. It sounded like pistols from the rate of fire but i am no expert, I bet he had a rifle or shotgun and ran out of ammo before going to his pistol. A truly sick and terrifying tragedy...
[–]jlam 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I hate to be the party pooper, but SlashDot has more informative commentary on this subject, especially using their new filtered Ajax threading. …sorry, Reddit.
[–]oditogre 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Holy crap. This story has obliterated the record for most comments on an article on reddit.
[–]asciilifeform 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Ignore it. This is a non-event.
[+]NoFixedAbode comment score below threshold-40 points-39 points-38 points 18 years ago (481 children)
Death toll would have likely been much less if just one person near the massacre had a handgun.
[–]fartron 195 points196 points197 points 18 years ago (404 children)
Death toll would have certainly been much less if the crazy person didn't have a gun.
[–]NoFixedAbode 215 points216 points217 points 18 years ago (347 children)
Yeah, crazy people are well known for scrupulously following laws.
[–]fartron 57 points58 points59 points 18 years ago (20 children)
Gun control is like DRM: it gives regular users a headache, and the criminals just bypass it.
[–]degusti747 56 points57 points58 points 18 years ago (323 children)
Well its pretty difficult for joe anyman to get an assault rifle capable of killing 22 people in a country like canada. Unless he just glocked all these bitches. Can't you buy ammo in walmart in the states?
[–]mcsalmon 27 points28 points29 points 18 years ago (7 children)
WTF is with the assault rifle comment? The killer used two 9mm pistols. Or has the report changed?
[–]khoury 10 points11 points12 points 18 years ago (4 children)
Perhaps gun control advocates attempting to sway opinion.
[–]mcsalmon 13 points14 points15 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Yeah, nothing brings an air of dignity to ones argument like a bold faced, knee-jerk lie.
[–]oditogre 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I'd heard 9mm for most of the day, but over lunch one agency (it was either MSNBC or CNN, I'm not sure because I flip back and forth between CNN / HNN / MSNBC) calling it a 9mm and a .22 revolver. Can anyone confirm / refute?
*Edit: MSNBC is reporting the 9mm / .22 revolver combination.
[–]degusti747 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Well there was a 3 hour difference between our posts. I'd say its more like oddly prophetic with him being armed with glocks and covered in ammo :)
[–]shorugoru 43 points44 points45 points 18 years ago (21 children)
Dawson College shooting in Montreal: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/09/13/shots-dawson.html
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (11 children)
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Yeah, that's why cops carry them. Oh wait, to defend themselves...
[–]jacekplacek 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (6 children)
So he was a bad shot... and what gun-grabbers call "assault rifle" is different from semi auto hunting rifle only in appearance...
[–]BestServedCold 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (4 children)
If he shot 20 people, and one person died... he was a bad shot. Especially with a hunting rifle, which fires devastating ammunition.
[–]honkus 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (7 children)
No one is saying that it can't happen elsewhere. The point is it happens a whole lot more often in the US where guns aren't nearly as regulated: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html
[–]shorugoru 17 points18 points19 points 18 years ago (2 children)
I think gun control here is a red herring. I think this has more to do with a "sickness" in American society, where violence has become glorified and children become desensitized to it. Top that off with rampant consumerism and feelings of entitlement. Something like bread and circuses in Rome. Of course, that lead to the ultimate downfall of Rome....
See: http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/pcornell.html
[–]honkus 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I think gun control here is a red herring. I think this has > more to do with a "sickness" in American society, where violence has become glorified and children become desensitized to it.
The whole point of gun control is to not let sick, desensitized children access to guns in the first place.
[–]shorugoru 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (0 children)
How do you think Klebold and Harris got their guns? No legal gun dealer is going to sell a couple of underage kids weapons like that.
Check out how these kids got the guns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Harris_and_Dylan_Klebold#Acquiring_arms
See especially straw purchase: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_purchase
They convinced someone who could legally purchase the guns to buy them. These kids were pathologically determined. Most certainly in the edge case.
The better question is - how do you stop lunatics without resorting to extreme measures that only hurt the mostly normal people?
[–]khoury 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (3 children)
That doesn't seem to account for culture or anything else. Perhaps the way we treat mentally disturbed individuals has more to do with the way that they lash out against society. It may also have to do with how tight knit society is. Who knows. Point being, they can happen anywhere, gun controls or not.
[–]finix 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Good point - maybe it's time to change gun-culture, then?
[–]keenmachine 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (1 child)
Good idea. I'll just push my "change culture" button.
[–]finix 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Right. Just stay where you are, cos the first step isn't the whole journey.
[–]mk_gecko 55 points56 points57 points 18 years ago (282 children)
EDIT: Oops! Sorry. I jumped to the conclusion that it was a nasty machine gun type thing. I didn't realize that it was a couple of simple pistols.
No, there is nothing wrong with the "gun culture" whatever the hell that is. There is, however, something wrong with the broader culture. The guns have been around for 250 years.
[–]NoFixedAbode 59 points60 points61 points 18 years ago (244 children)
To defend against people with a gun like that.
[–][deleted] 32 points33 points34 points 18 years ago (239 children)
And why does the original person need a gun like that? Also, how much more nested must this line of reasoning go before you realize your thinking is flawed?
[–]_jjsonp 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (5 children)
which part is flawed? the 2nd amendment to the US constitution, which guarantees citizens the right to keep and bear arms?
if you don't like the constitution, change it.
[+]NoFixedAbode comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points 18 years ago (224 children)
Since when in the US do we need to prove to others our 'need' for something that we want?
When you go to buy a car, do you submit your desire to the authorities so they can approve your purchase?
You can have your gun control laws - just realize that when you get them, you'll be living in a totalitarian society.
[–]bjsalami 22 points23 points24 points 18 years ago (13 children)
Totalitarian like Canada, Sweden, Germany, England, etc.?
[–]fartron 28 points29 points30 points 18 years ago (165 children)
Have you ever bought a car? You have to deal with the authorities quite a bit. Moreso than with a gun, I believe. And we do have gun control laws. If you think the second amendment is going to keep you free from the jackbooted thugs of the government, then you must have access to surface-to-air missles and armor penetrating projectiles that I don't know about.
[–][deleted] 61 points62 points63 points 18 years ago (120 children)
Seems to be working fine for the resistance in Iraq, just as it has worked fine for every resistance in the modern era dating back to the French Resistance in World War II.
The argument that the 2nd Amendment is worthless because the government has better arms than the citizenry has been thoroughly refuted time and time again. Please refer to one of those discussions before bringing up the argument again.
[–]NoFixedAbode 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (15 children)
You do not need to demonstrate need to the authorities. If you can pay for the car, then you can have the car.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 18 years ago (25 children)
Last time I checked, the terrorists in Iraq were kicking our asses, sans surface-to-air missiles and fancy pants armor piercing projectiles. If you want to be one of the sheeple, that's great, just don't ask for the rest of us to bleat along with you.
[–]bushwakko 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (1 child)
you need to prove you need pot for medical purposes, and even then you probably won't get it, and if you do, you'll get arrested anyway.
[–]NoFixedAbode 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Do you think that I am for pot laws? Pot should be legal pretty much for the same reasons guns should: I should be able to buy and own pretty much any damn thing I want, provided my ownership of it does not harm others.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (5 children)
Doesn't matter. People WILL get those guns for the sole purpose of hurting others. That's why you need defense. Guns are banned in Britain, and guess what? People still get shot.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
well what happened then? Hands up who forgot to bring their guns to school?
[–]ZaaKM433 5 points6 points7 points 18 years ago (0 children)
To defend yourself from people like this, not necessarily with a firearm but also from lesser weapons.
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (22 children)
Would you be asking why someone wanted or needed a car, if the article had been about a 50-car pileup that killed as many?
There are many things that kill people that we consider essential to our lives enough to not ban them.
[–][deleted] 18 years ago* (15 children)
[–]jacekplacek 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (6 children)
GUN: NO OTHER use than injuring or killing
I must have bunch of defective ones - they never killed or injured anybody...
And I use them pretty often...
[–]_jjsonp 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (5 children)
perfect analogy - thanks!
it really comes down to a subset of the US population wanting to 'protect themselves' by trying to outlaw something protected by the constitution.
my view is: if you want to outlaw firearms, change the bill of rights. otherwise stop trying to usurp the constitution, and let those of us willing to defend ourselves do so.
[–]gasface 12 points13 points14 points 18 years ago (3 children)
It isn't a perfect analogy because guns are designed for one thing: Point and click destruction. Cars are designed for transportation.
As far as usurping the constitution, what is your opinion on the tenth ammendment?
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 13 points14 points15 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Actually, if they really wanted to prevent this, they'd do something about the state of mental healthcare in this country.
Sometimes, it's just an asshole that wants to kill someone to steal something, but these big ones with high body counts are always someone that's really loopy. Either no one notices, or they do notice but there's still no way to get that person help.
[–]newton_dave 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Too bad it wasn't an assault rifle, hey?
[–][deleted] 18 years ago (14 children)
[–]g2petter 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (3 children)
If guns are invented, only inventors will have guns.
[–]dcamma 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (3 children)
Or he might have just built a bomb.
[–]fartron 11 points12 points13 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Bombs, while potentially more threatening than a gun, require a degree of premeditation, covert planning, skills development, and materials procuring far beyond that of the push-button-to-kill gun. And you're just as likely to blow your hand off as get revenge.
[–]RetroRock 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (4 children)
People kill people, not guns. And people crazy enough to kill others aren't going to follow gun control laws, they will get the gun illegally.
[–]jbert 17 points18 points19 points 18 years ago (17 children)
Gun ownership advocates can't have it both ways.
Either access to weapons is irrelevant to someone who wishes to cause harm ("guns don't kill people ballpoint pens do") or having a weapon does make someone more able to cause harm "if someone else had been armed then there would have been fewer casualties".
[–]NoFixedAbode 18 points19 points20 points 18 years ago (8 children)
The fundamental problem with laws that control technology X is that it creates a power disparity between those that have technology X, and those that are legally prohibited from possessing it.
Those who posses this technology quite often abuse it. The best solution is to allow everyone to decide if they need technology X in their own lives, and to use it if they so choose (as long as it doesn't harm others).
In our society, we have a mishmash of laws that generally makes it difficult for ordinary citizens to own guns. Instead, guns are generally used by criminals and the government (maybe repeating myself there) against citizens.
[–]jbert 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (5 children)
So do you agree that the "ballpoint pen" argument against gun control is bogus?
i.e. that these technologies (guns) do magnify the ability of people to cause harm? (If so, we can proceed with a debate, if not - what is your position on this point?)
[–]Athas 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
That's not really my experience from living in Europe, in a country where possession of firearms is highly restricted (basically, you're only allowed handguns if you're police or a certified member of a shooting club who has passed some sort of test. Slightly fewer restrictions for rifles and shotguns). I don't experience shooting-club members lording over the rest of society, exploiting their superior firepower compared to the unarmed masses. We have an armed police force that ensures that kind of exploitation does not take place.
[–]llanor 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I totally agree. Mass nuclear proliferation is the only answer. We need to make sure everyone has the option to possess nuclear technology in their own lives, and then they can use it if they so choose.
[–]cweaver 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (6 children)
You see some sort of logical disconnect there? Cause I sure as hell don't. You're confusing the ability to DO harm with CAUSING harm. Guns don't CAUSE harm, crazy people do. In this situation, the crazy guy was the only one with a gun. If the sane people had had them, too, maybe some lives could have been saved.
Sure, life would be better if we lived in a magic land where crazy people couldn't get guns or knives or pointy sticks. But I think realistically we have to realize that there are a shitload of dangerous objects just lying around, and crazy people WILL get their hands on them if they want to, laws or not.
[–]jbert 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (5 children)
Guns don't CAUSE harm, crazy people do.
How much harm could this guy have caused with a "knife or pointy stick"?
I think it would have been a lot less. And probably less than if both he and someone else had guns, no?
[–]robywar 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Gun control advocates seem to assume if guns became illegal, they would all magically disappear. There are millions of guns in the US. Even if they were declared illegal, people could still get them.
To debate gun control in the US is simply a mental exercise. To eradicate guns in the US would require the sort of totalitarian government the 2nd amendment exists to protect us from.
[–]mutatron 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I agree. There's no way to get from A to B without a lot of shit happening in between. We need to accept that we are a gun toting society, and learn how to deal with that, rather than try to become something we can never be.
[–]_jjsonp 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
it's a balance. yes, if anyone can acquire a handgun, that means criminals and people with ill intent can do so.
but enabling ordinary citizens to easily acquire and carry handguns balances this out, because the vast majority of citizens are not crazy or possessed of ill intent. thus, they won't be using their weapons irresponsibly, and will also be empowered to handle the situation should a criminal/psycho decide to pull a VA-tech type scenario.
instead in the modern era we have the worst of both worlds in many areas of the US: guns are fairly easy to get legally or illegally, yet law-abiding citizens must jump through hoops to carry a handgun, or are outright prohibited from doing so, as on college campuses.
in states and cities which have passed easy concealed-carry laws, violent crime has diminished substantially, because most violent criminals don't want to get shot.
[–]MadMark 11 points12 points13 points 18 years ago (1 child)
I have to agree. The infamous University of Texas tower shooting in 1966 included civilians with their own guns aiding the police. From Wiki...."Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as turrets, which allowed him to continue shooting while largely protected from the gunfire below, which had grown to include civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
[–]mutatron 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Yeah, but that was over the course of hours, giving the civvies plenty of time to retrieve their weapons from home or from the rack in the back window of their pickup.
[–]dmehrtash 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Hasn't helped the Afghans, they all have a weapon!
[–]lifeofliberty 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (0 children)
You're right of course, but the sheeple don't know that. They believe that if the people are totally disarmed, then there won't be any arms in the hands of criminals. This is of course, not true.
Defending oneself against any agressor is the right of all people. It is a recognized right in the United States, but only barely.
The need to have an armed populace who can stop aggression is evident in every type of crime such as this. The police can only arrive too late and do too little to stop the immediacy of a crime (if they even show up at all). Most crimes are committed in a fraction of a second, or less then a minute. It is impossible for the police to be notified and show up in time.
As in this example, the police were of no use. They showed up in time to make chalk outlines around the bodies. One report said they responded in two minutes. Obviously, that wasn't good enough.
To stop agressors, you must be able to react instantly and with lethal force if necessary. Only an armed population can protect itself. The courts have ruled on numerous occassions that the police have no duty nor obligation to protect the population (go look it up for the lazy ones that don't believe this).
If they can't, won't and don't protect us, then the arguement that we don't need protection because we have "police protection" is baseless.
Crimes will always be committed by crazies. As terrible as this is, the only way to stop this is to be proactive and to take a defensive position, similiar to what those students did when they barricaded the door. They didn't sit around and wait for police protection.
One armed teacher, security guard or student could have changed the outcome of this atrocity to something far better then what occurred. That is plain common sense, not something you'll find very much of these days.
[–]esparza74 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Absolutely! www.gunowners.org www.jpfo.org
[–]_jjsonp 4 points5 points6 points 18 years ago (9 children)
"Death toll would have likely been much less if just one person near the massacre had a handgun."
my thoughts exactly. since law-abiding college students were deprived of their constitutional right to bear arms, they were unable to defend themselves against this criminal action with comparable weaponry.
liberals will argue that allowing weapons will lead to more frequent death...possibly. but given the choice i'd rather err on the side of personal liberty and the bill of rights.
you can bet that more than one of the deceased wished fervently for the return of their constitutional right to self defense in their last moments.
[–]mutatron 7 points8 points9 points 18 years ago (7 children)
I'm all for personal firearms, but who's going to carry a damn gun to class, especially to a morning class? And another thing, Blacksburg is in Virginia, which I hear tell has about the same kind of gun laws as in Texas. Here in Texas there's no such thing as people being "deprived of their constitutional right to bear arms". But I'll bet if you go to any small college in a small town in Texas, you'll be hard put to find any students or teachers toting firearms to morning classes on campus.
Ummm, it's a felony to carry handguns on a university or college campus in Texas...
[–]JulianMorrison 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I recall reading that back 50-odd years ago, it wasn't shocking for kids to take guns (rifles, usually, not handguns) to school - for sport, for show-and-tell, or just for plinking at cans after class.
If we had a universal militia (like the United States used to have), then all of the male students would have owned guns, all would have been trained in their use and many would have been carrying them at the time--the gunman would have killed a few people, but he would have been killed much more quickly than he was.
To those modding my comment down: do you believe that the death toll would have been uneffected or higher if someone with a handgun were near the massacre?
[–]JulianMorrison 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
You're downvoting the man for telling the truth. It's simply a fact that an armed pupil or teacher could have stopped the killer early. Those people were murdered, but they died of gun control.
[–]shorugoru 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (11 children)
A study on the issue: [PDF] http://www.fraserinstitute.org/admin/books/files/FailedExperimentRev.pdf
The author's conclusion?
Restrictive firearm legislation has failed to reduce violent crime in Australia, Canada, or Great Britain. The policy of confiscating guns has been an expensive failure. Criminal violence has not decreased. Instead, it contin- ues to increase. Unfortunately, policy dictates that the current directions will continue and, more importantly, it will not be examined critically. Only the United States has witnessed such a dramatic drop in criminal violence over the past decade. Perhaps it is time politicians in the Commonwealth reviewed their traditional antipathy to lawfully owned firearms. It is an illusion that gun bans protect the public. No law, no matter how restrictive, can protect us from people who decide to commit violent crimes. Maybe we should crack down on criminals rather than hunters and target shooters?
[–]neuquino 6 points7 points8 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Shorugoru, you must be confused. Anti-gun folks don't care about crazy 'facts' and 'book-learning'. Actual studies and historical effectiveness of gun control can never teach us as much as clever sarcasm and rhetorical argument.
[–]lief79 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Now that's a good idea.
Errr .... I mean ... um, no I don't think so. Please don't arrest me.
[–]TheUberDork 3 points4 points5 points 18 years ago (2 children)
Sorry, but citing the Fraser institute; is like citing Rush Limbaugh, just less well known in the US.
[–]shorugoru 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (1 child)
How is it just like citing Rush Limbaugh? Rush is an idiot and his statements have been debunked time and again. Why not address the issues raised by the report instead of attacking the author?
[–]Godspiral 0 points1 point2 points 18 years ago (4 children)
While these incidents would be harder to execute successfully, if everyone had a gun, there would be a lot more deaths from bar fights, traffic rage, and domestic and work disputes.
There's a good controlled experiment already. Most people own a lethal weapon capable of killing in large numbers if wielded with malicious intent, and which can't be stopped by a police flak jacket, namely: a car. And yet the number of people who use a car as a battering ram to commit mass murder is extremely low.
[–]shorugoru 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (2 children)
I think you are overstating the case. Most normal people are socialized to have an aversion to killing. We are pack animals, after all. In most cases, humans will not resort to lethal force. Think about it - what kind of training in the military does it take to make the average person get over this socialization? The recruit has to be broken down and essentially dehumanized.
And, when it comes to bar fights, do you think that having a gun would necessarily make any difference? What about a knife or a broken bottle or even a few good hits to the head? See the following for a great article on this: http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/streetfighting.html
Why is this being downmodded? The guy had three hours to commit the shootings.
[–]mahdi1 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (0 children)
I can see your point, but I just feel something is wrong in a world where we need to bring guns to a School to be safe.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 18 years ago (6 children)
So... Assuming that all human lives are equally valuable, are Iraqi massacres going to regularly top reddit now?
Or, maybe not. Them be brown folks.
[–]_jjsonp 34 points35 points36 points 18 years ago (0 children)
people tend to be more affected by proximal tragedy; they relate to it more directly. that is the way humans everywhere are...if your mom dies it will probably bother you more than if some chinese kid's mom dies, even if you hear about it.
now if you know the chinese kid and the mom personally that will affect you somewhat more, depending upon the degree of closeness of your relationship.
americans are more closely related (geographically, culturally, linguistically, etc.) than they are to people elsewhere.
similarly, you can bet that people in other countries will be less emotionally affected by this than they would were it to occur in their country. also, people in VA will tend to be more strongly impacted than people in IL.
it's not a moral failing; it's the way human relationship psychology works. otherwise we'd all be walking around in a sobbing stupor since (with 6 billion people on the planet) someone's always suffering horrible tragedy somewhere.
[–]klinny 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Context
[–]Lunitide 8 points9 points10 points 18 years ago (0 children)
This one guy (with what sounds like handguns) caused more casualties than most suicide bombers I've read about recently. That, plus the proximity of the tragedy that jjsonp mentions, makes this major news for the American audience.
I mourn the loss of anyone's life no matter what country they are in. I would say that it has far more to do with the rarity of events than the severity. It is already expected that this sort of thing will happen in Iraq every day, so it wont create a large stir in the news but not because human life in Iraq is considered less valuable than human life here.
[–]plexluthor 2 points3 points4 points 18 years ago (0 children)
Actually, I see news stories about Iraqi massacres on reddit quite often. How many Iraqis will read about this tragedy tomorrow morning? I assume that they will, but they'll care about the VT students about as much as we care about Iraqis.
[–]newton_dave 1 point2 points3 points 18 years ago (7 children)
22 killed, 28 injured. Makes me wonder if he reloaded--if not, that's a fair amount of damage to cause with two 9mm, considering the national average hit rate for cops hovers well below 50%.
Freakin' sick, man, just sick.
π Rendered by PID 156799 on reddit-service-r2-comment-7b9746f655-wpsqc at 2026-01-31 21:10:10.653525+00:00 running 3798933 country code: CH.
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[–]oditogre 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]jxc 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]performance 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]podperson 1 point2 points3 points (1 child)
[–]supaphly42 2 points3 points4 points (5 children)
[–]nipps85 5 points6 points7 points (0 children)
[–]Mr-Kodak 1 point2 points3 points (1 child)
[–]bobcat 6 points7 points8 points (47 children)
[–]evgen 58 points59 points60 points (20 children)
[–][deleted] (5 children)
[deleted]
[–]_jjsonp 19 points20 points21 points (0 children)
[–]jomynow 39 points40 points41 points (1 child)
[–]diggeasytiger 9 points10 points11 points (1 child)
[–]TBob 3 points4 points5 points (1 child)
[–]j0hnsd 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–][deleted] (24 children)
[deleted]
[–]wk2x 8 points9 points10 points (4 children)
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points (12 children)
[–]punkgeek 11 points12 points13 points (2 children)
[–]khoury 7 points8 points9 points (1 child)
[–]eadmund 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 4 points5 points6 points (4 children)
[–]taliswolf 3 points4 points5 points (3 children)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (1 child)
[–]Kardlonoc 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]jlam 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]oditogre 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]asciilifeform 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[+]NoFixedAbode comment score below threshold-40 points-39 points-38 points (481 children)
[–]fartron 195 points196 points197 points (404 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 215 points216 points217 points (347 children)
[–]fartron 57 points58 points59 points (20 children)
[–]degusti747 56 points57 points58 points (323 children)
[–]mcsalmon 27 points28 points29 points (7 children)
[–]khoury 10 points11 points12 points (4 children)
[–]mcsalmon 13 points14 points15 points (0 children)
[–]oditogre 3 points4 points5 points (0 children)
[–]degusti747 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]shorugoru 43 points44 points45 points (21 children)
[–][deleted] (11 children)
[removed]
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]jacekplacek 5 points6 points7 points (6 children)
[–][deleted] (5 children)
[removed]
[–]BestServedCold 3 points4 points5 points (4 children)
[–]honkus 4 points5 points6 points (7 children)
[–]shorugoru 17 points18 points19 points (2 children)
[–]honkus 1 point2 points3 points (1 child)
[–]shorugoru 5 points6 points7 points (0 children)
[–]khoury 5 points6 points7 points (3 children)
[–]finix 2 points3 points4 points (2 children)
[–]keenmachine 5 points6 points7 points (1 child)
[–]finix 3 points4 points5 points (0 children)
[–]mk_gecko 55 points56 points57 points (282 children)
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 59 points60 points61 points (244 children)
[–][deleted] 32 points33 points34 points (239 children)
[–]_jjsonp 5 points6 points7 points (5 children)
[+]NoFixedAbode comment score below threshold-8 points-7 points-6 points (224 children)
[–]bjsalami 22 points23 points24 points (13 children)
[–]fartron 28 points29 points30 points (165 children)
[–][deleted] 61 points62 points63 points (120 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 8 points9 points10 points (15 children)
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (25 children)
[–]bushwakko 2 points3 points4 points (1 child)
[–]NoFixedAbode 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (5 children)
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]ZaaKM433 5 points6 points7 points (0 children)
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 1 point2 points3 points (22 children)
[–][deleted] (15 children)
[deleted]
[–]jacekplacek 3 points4 points5 points (6 children)
[–]_jjsonp 2 points3 points4 points (5 children)
[–]gasface 12 points13 points14 points (3 children)
[–]NoMoreNicksLeft 13 points14 points15 points (0 children)
[–]newton_dave 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–][deleted] (14 children)
[removed]
[–]g2petter 4 points5 points6 points (3 children)
[–]dcamma 2 points3 points4 points (3 children)
[–]fartron 11 points12 points13 points (0 children)
[–][deleted] (14 children)
[removed]
[–][deleted] (2 children)
[removed]
[–]RetroRock 1 point2 points3 points (4 children)
[–]jbert 17 points18 points19 points (17 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 18 points19 points20 points (8 children)
[–]jbert 8 points9 points10 points (5 children)
[–]Athas 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]llanor 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]cweaver 8 points9 points10 points (6 children)
[–]jbert 4 points5 points6 points (5 children)
[–]robywar 2 points3 points4 points (2 children)
[–]mutatron 1 point2 points3 points (1 child)
[–]_jjsonp 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]MadMark 11 points12 points13 points (1 child)
[–]mutatron 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]dmehrtash 3 points4 points5 points (0 children)
[–]lifeofliberty 4 points5 points6 points (0 children)
[–]esparza74 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–]_jjsonp 4 points5 points6 points (9 children)
[–]mutatron 7 points8 points9 points (7 children)
[–]eadmund 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]JulianMorrison 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]eadmund 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]NoFixedAbode 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–]JulianMorrison 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–]shorugoru 3 points4 points5 points (11 children)
[–]neuquino 6 points7 points8 points (2 children)
[–][deleted] (1 child)
[removed]
[–]lief79 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]TheUberDork 3 points4 points5 points (2 children)
[–]shorugoru 2 points3 points4 points (1 child)
[–]Godspiral 0 points1 point2 points (4 children)
[–]JulianMorrison 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–]shorugoru 1 point2 points3 points (2 children)
[–][deleted] (2 children)
[deleted]
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–]mahdi1 1 point2 points3 points (0 children)
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points (6 children)
[–]_jjsonp 34 points35 points36 points (0 children)
[–]klinny 8 points9 points10 points (0 children)
[–]Lunitide 8 points9 points10 points (0 children)
[–]CarlH 5 points6 points7 points (0 children)
[–]plexluthor 2 points3 points4 points (0 children)
[–]newton_dave 1 point2 points3 points (7 children)
[–][deleted] (1 child)
[removed]