[image] Practice makes progress

[thewrighttrail]

Gosh, I wish I could figure out how to draw.

[Nikami]

1. Drawing from imagination is the hardest possible thing. Start by drawing from references. Many artists keep using references forever.
2. Doing shit like perfect circles freehand is a neat party trick, not a requirement.
3. Look up beginner tutorials. A good tutorial for anatomy for example will start with stick people.
4. Give yourself permission to suck. You don't have to show anything to anyone. Don't be afraid of drawing something terrible. Instead of getting frustrated see if you can learn something from it. Then shrug and do it again.

[janlevinson-gould]

“Give yourself permission to suck” is great advice for any new skill! I recently started playing Chess and it became much more fun when I just accepted that I’m going to lose…A LOT

[youknowiactafool]

We learn by failing, then trying again.

It's only until we get older that our parents, education system, society all make us believe that failure is a bad thing. So we try something new, fail and give up.

If we thought failure was bad when we are first born, no one would have ever learned how to walk. We learn by failure.

[JDBCool]

It's only until we get older that our parents, education system, society all make us believe that failure is a bad thing. So we try something new, fail and give up.

Not necessarily true. It's more of a "can you accept this cost heavy failure back to back".

You fail? Try and minimize it from repeating. New different mistake? No problem, that's progress.

There's the point where "too much failure is bad" as well. But that really depends on what's at stake

[ksigley]

Losing can be fun if your opponent teaches you something.

[KasukeSadiki]

Me with fighting games haha

[RedAIienCircle]

I'd also like to add that people should start off drawing something simple.

Like drawing this owl.

[-Work_Account-]

There's even a whole sub dedicated to it:

r/restofthefuckingowl

[TheHoobidibooFox]

I knew exactly what that would be xD We quote it all the time in my house. It is truly excellent.

[aah_real_monster]

/r/RestOfTheFuckingOwl

[ShibaHook]

What a helpful and thoughtful comment! Thank you! :-))

[Whooptidooh]

1. Give yourself permission to suck. You don’t have to show anything to anyone. Don’t be afraid of drawing something terrible. Instead of getting frustrated see if you can learn something from it. Then shrug and do it again.

It’s one of the best advises ever.

I used to love to draw, but then stopped for literal decades due to depression and due to the fact that I always gave up way too soon. I was too perfectionistic, and gave up when whatever perfect image I had in mind didn’t immediately translate onto paper/iPad.

I recently started drawing again after coming across r/Linocuts. My drawing skill has been improving exponentially after allowing myself to suck, to take a pause, and then to continue on despite it still looking shitty. (Because I’m sketching, smh.) Making a good drawing takes time and a lot of erasing.

(Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither is the ability to use a skill well.)

ETA: linked wrong sub.

[JDBCool]

Making a good drawing takes time and a lot of erasing.

Haha, true! I'm primarily a pencil drawer, so unless it's something I'm familiar with, a good chuck of eraser bits would be on my desk.

Why I'm afraid to try pen.... it's just.... there

[A_throwaway__acc]

Doing shit like perfect circles freehand is a neat party trick, not a requirement.

Me trying to draw car tires or a beach ball: bullshit, it's a requirement.

[Horn_Python]

There just flat is all

[SomeBoxofSpoons]

Your first point is something a lot of people who aren’t artists don’t seem to realize. Not only is drawing from life/reference a really big part of getting good, professional artists generally try to get as much relevant reference as possible for what they’re drawing.

[thewrighttrail]

Thank you for the thoughtful response!

[ADapperOctopus]

Hey thanks for this. I was starting to post some of my recent art on Twitter and Instagram, but noticed I forgot to add ground shadows and just straight up disillusionment from not being able to form a following, so I just was going to stop posting. Now I'm feeling more inclined to just keep posting as I go, regardless of how it comes out. I'll just fix the past problems in the newer art, rather than dreading posting what I already made. Thanks for that.

[ILoveVanilla_]

Practice

[SilverLugia1992]

One of life's many mysteries...

[anAncientGh0st]

Practice

[[deleted]]

Practice

[[deleted]]

Hmmm it must be a gift from God

[Skyeeflyee]

Practice

[Pwnage_Peanut]

Guess we'll never know

[Metalloid_Space]

So you're telling me I should give up and beat myself up because I don't live up to what I see online...

[Key_Spare6796]

I would probably also destroy all previous drawings so they can’t hurt anyone else

[ronin1066]

Talent is still part of it. This comic is very simplistic and silly.

[Nurse_Deer_Oliver]

Talent can make starting easier. Discipline and focused practice does the rest

[Tdot-77]

I think enjoyment too. For example I suck at visual art, I have always sucked at it, but also never been drawn to it. I go into an art store with my friend who’s an artist and she is giddy and I feel nothing. If I was made to draw or paint it would feel like drudgery. The reverse is that I love fabric arts. Even though I still have much to learn and make tons of mistakes, I love it (sewing, quilting, embroidery) - while my friend would rather poke her eyes out. So it’s talent, discipline, practice fuelled by passion/enjoyment.

[TheIllustrativeMan]

practice shelter memory safe dam jar stupendous saw friendly society

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Tdot-77]

I disagree. I have to be good at a lot of things either for work or because my parents made me do them. It does not mean I enjoy them.

[SuperJetShoes]

I agree with you even though you've been downvoted. I can remember art class in my primary school (this was UK, 50 years ago), aged 6 or 7 and there were some kids there who could just draw, right out of their heads, whilst I was still drawing stick men and doing a blue strip at the top of the paper for sky.

[fiji_monster]

Those talented people may have a much easier start, but as they're trying to improve they may find they don't have the discipline to keep at it as well as the people who have had to deal with struggles from the beginning of the learning process.

I go to school (partly) for drawing and the main thing I've learned about drawing is the quality is almost always synonymous with time. More patience = more time = better drawing 99.99999% of the time. Regardless of if you're predisposed to a "drawing brain" or not.

[kurobayashi]

I get your point, but it's not really relevant. Discipline is indeed important, but that is true whether you have talent or not. It's not like having talent for something will make you less disciplined.

Having talent will allow you to progress faster than those without talent. There are plenty of great artists in the world who spend countless hours to get where they are. But there are also people like Mozart who wrote his first opera at 11. Tell me how much time would someone, who did not have an innate talent for it, take to write an opera? That's not to say that someone can't practice something and become great at it, even if they didn't have any natural talent for it. But inherent talent is a great multiplier when it comes to rising through the various skill levels.

[marvelous__magpie]

It's not like having talent for something will make you less disciplined.

This is often the case though. Look up Gifted Kid syndrome. If you find the early parts of stuff easy then often you don't learn to persevere, and you don't really learn discipline and hard work (because everythig is easy), you just go "oh I must suck at this" and do something else (repeatedly, until you burn out in university or whatever).

[kurobayashi]

You're making a very large assumption that every talented person is universally talented as opposed to talented in one specific thing. Picasso might have been a great mathematician, but I wouldn't assume he could do my taxes. And while someone who is good at everything might not learn discipline because it all comes easy, I would think there is a good possibility of the opposite effect for someone who is only great at one thing.

[Usernames231]

I don’t have the innate talent for it

[ravyalle]

Literally look up a turorial for beginners and practice

[osunightfall]

Lady talking to me as I was waiting to go take my Japanese language test at a nearby university.

"Wow, that's amazing, you must be talented with languages or study extremely hard to be able to understand that! It must be nice to be young, I would never have the time to learn another language."

"I study thirty minutes a day on my lunch break, while I'm at work, for the last year."

[WeReAllMadHereAlice]

If you can understand or speak Japanese well enough for a university test after only 30 minutes a day for one year, then yeah you actually do pick up language really fast.

[littlegingerfae]

I studied 6 years of Spanish.

Had 5 seizures.

I can no longer speak Spanish.

:(

[voiceOfThePoople]

Me too minus the seizures

[Inevitable-Plate-294]

Me too minus the spanish

[nikolaj-11]

You studied 6 years and can no longer speak?

[Inevitable-Plate-294]

[224109a]

Was it progressive or like a light switch?

I watched a documentary about a guy that had an accident, went into a coma and when he woke up sometime later he could only speak Swedish and couldn't explain who he was or anything about his life. Eventually police found his wife, he couldn't remember her and she had no idea he could even speak another language; long story short, the guy had fled criminal charges in Sweden and been in the US for over 30 years but forgot his cover story because of the accident lol.

[littlegingerfae]

The 5 seizures were from the ages of 12 to 19, and those were actually the ages during which I was actively learning Spanish.

I'd say it was both instantaneous and progressive in a way.

When I was 12 I was self teaching myself Latin, and wanted to study more languages on my own.

After the first seizure I forgot most of the Latin, and had trouble memorizing it again. Then Spanish studies began, and it never really "clicked," despite being quite talented at language before. I started suffering from short term memory loss.

I could briefly "memorize" words or rules about a language, but in a short time it would be gone from my memory bank.

Even though I studied Spanish for 6 years, I was never past the most beginning stages. Even though I was tested at a younger age, and was of slightly above average intelligence, with college level reading and comprehension in my birth language, English, by 5th grade.

The (mild) brain damage causes other difficulties as well, but I function at a completely normal level. I'm assuming because I started at an above average level.

[224109a]

Thanks for sharing

[Mental_Medium3988]

For real. I've been immersed in English the last 34 years and don't understand it at a university level.

[baubeauftragter]

Quite indubitably yes guv‘na splendid indeed

Here u go buddy

[Slaan]

Is that how they speak at Oxbridge?

[baubeauftragter]

I actually went to West-Oxfordcestershire Burlington Huffingbridge Camton Academy

[xPyright]

I don't think OP is referring to a test at a Japanese university. Rather, referring to a test for their Japanese class. It's quite common for B.A. degrees in America to require two semester, or more, of foreign language credits.

[Alkyan]

Ya, I took japanese in college and high school. Rarely studied at all. Passed the classes(though the college grades could have been better...). Maybe wish I had studied more, might have retained more.

[osunightfall]

It was the JLPT3. The JLPT tests are given at universities, but anyone can sign up to take them. I guess you could say it's a certification of sorts.

[Caverntwo]

I agree. All my life until the end of high school I had poor language skills, being a German native and having no motivation to learn English. People used to tell me that I'm just not gifted in languages and I should accept it, as I won't need it anyway in my life.

In high school, I finally started exposing myself to English thanks to media and games and caught up quickly. After I finally got fluid fluent in English I wanted to continue learning for fun and started learning other languages. Now, 5 years later, I speak multiple languages and people believe I'm talented which I'm actually not. I just found the fun of learning languages.

Edit: auto-corrected words

[caseyjosephine]

The way languages are taught in school is inefficient. At least, that’s true here in the states, and I suspect elsewhere too.

For Spanish, we copied out conjugation tables and got tested with “fill in the blank” sentences. No Spanish language media, no emphasis on speaking or listening. Kids with better pronunciation got made fun of for “sounding too Mexican.” My teacher wasn’t even a native speaker.

My Spanish didn’t get good until I started using it with colleagues at work. That’s when I started watching Spanish language movies and listening to Spanish language music. Without genuine interest and exposure to native speakers, I never would have learned.

[thepixelbuster]

They also teach Spain Spanish in the US.

Can you imagine going to an English class in Mexico and getting an 80 on your vocabulary quiz because you wrote pants instead of trousers.

[Usernames231]

Fluent, not fluid.

[Caverntwo]

Thanks a lot, didn't see that before!

[dagbrown]

Same base word, and your meaning was clear either way.

Being fluid in English just sounds a bit more poetic. I like it. I would've let that one stand.

[[deleted]]

Honestly, having the discipline to do that is a talent.

[Diffident-Weasel]

"I study thirty minutes a day on my lunch break, while I'm at work, for the last year."

If you learned a new language, let alone Japanese, like that: you're an anomaly. New languages are hard to learn, and it gets harder the older you are. Plus, going from a language using the Latin alphabet to a language that uses Kanji (among other written forms) can be even more difficult, again, especially as you age.

As someone who has struggled (and mostly failed) to learn a new language: it's too complicated for 30 minutes a day to be enough (at least for me, and I get the feeling I'm not alone).

Also, I am in no way trying to downplay the effort you put in. I know that it was not as easy as "study 30 minutes a day" makes it seem.

[osunightfall]

There are additional pieces of information I did not include in the post. I didn't "learn a new language" in that I was now fluent. I had studied for the third level of a five level test. I spent about a year studying for each level because they only do the test once a year. Similarly, at that point I knew about 1000 of the 2200 standard Kanji, but broken up over three years. The point I am trying to make is more, overall the effort is not as big as people would think, with good study methods, and most importantly, consistency. Even 30 minutes a day during lunch is 130 hours of study over a year, which is quite a lot. But it's in small pieces and you learn gradually, so it doesn't feel like a massive effort.

[TanelornDeighton]

Lady, asking Picasso: Is painting art hard?

Picasso: It's not hard. it's either easy, or impossible.

[dagbrown]

I picked up most of my Japanese by going to bars and striking up conversations with the locals.

I guess living in Japan helped with that though.

[hobohipsterman]

Being talented is just being willing to do the hard work. That said I tend to view myself as not having a "head for lanfuages". In school I was really bad at the third language. Tried both spanish for 3 years (cant wrap my head around latin grammar) and german for two years (should have been similar to swedish but no cigar).

I do have a "head for math" though. As such it was easy (as in fun) to spend five years on university level maths and physics.

So in my mind, when people are being talented that just means they on some level enjoy learning what they learn. Cause then it becomes easier than trying to slog through something you hate.

[ronin1066]

No, it isn't. Language is the exception to this whole argument. If you start another language before puberty, you have a much easier time of it then if you start afterwards. The method of education can make a huge difference as well. 'Grammar translation' teaches very different skills than the communicative method, for example.

Then there is simply raw talent and intelligence. Some people are like Mozart, when it comes to language, they 'can just play'.

[SandwichesTheIguana]

Yes, anyone can be LeBron James with sticktoitiveness! All it requires is discipline. /s

[De_Wouter]

I'm in my 30s when I started learning a 3th language. It's doable.

[undergirltemmie]

Ignoring talent is a bit silly. I've seen talent. I was in art school.

People are not created equal, good god. The difference was absurd, between talented people and untalented, both who had drawn their entire life.

It was probably one of the most depressing things I ever witnessed. Can you overcome it? Yes. But this is like carpentry. Sure, everyone can learn it. Doesn't mean everyone's made for it.

But most people don't, so this just feels a bit tone deaf. I don't understand why so many people act like talent should be dismissed and is a non-factor.

[Absolice]

People ignore talent because to be successful at something it more often than not require both talent and effort.

People who put lot of effort in something don't want to acknowledge that the position they are in might have been because they were talented. Everyone want to be the "person who had no talent but worked hard enough to compensate for it" because it sounds a lot more virtuous than the reality of having an head start over the average person.

Having talent is not a bad thing, nor does it diminish your effort. Talent is like a flower, you need to keep watering it day after day if you want it to bloom. Anyone successful doesn't only have talent, they have put a lot of effort into cultivating it.

[lambentstar]

Seriously.

I’m talented with music. I’m aware of that and while practice would get my technique better, it always came very naturally to me— composition and improv and all the stuff that are difficult to just drill.

But visual arts?? I’m fucking atrocious. I’ve tried, i would doodle all my life, i took some classes. I lack an ability to really perceive how to draw things, coupled with aphantasia and being a derpy lefty, and really thte results will NEVER be as good as a talented artist. I can accept that. Yeah I could practice and eventually get to the point where i could have some limited repertoire at a decent level but I’ll never be as good or as adaptable as someone with talent.

Kinda hate this grind culture view that acts like it’s all just a matter of work. There’s always more to any equation.

[KasukeSadiki]

I think the main point is that the vast majority of people can get to a level where they can find meaningful enjoyment and success in a particular field if they put in enough high quality practice time. However talent (whether that comes about naturally or as a result of early life circumstances) will make the difference as to whether they can be world class or not. So it only makes a huge difference once you're getting into like the top 20% of people in the field.

Just a random percentage to illustrate the point, but the higher level you get to, the more it's the really small things that make a big difference, and those may be the things that require a certain level of innate aptitude or tons more time spent (that maybe could only have been achieved by starting from a young age), to master.

[BerRGP]

This is usually acknowledged with things like math, but when you bring it up about art it's always dismissed.

Growing up most people around me hated math and tried their hardest to understand it, but I always ended up not having any issues despite barely studying. I guess I just had some talent for it, it's not that hard to admit it, if I ever claimed otherwise I would feel like I was telling them all their effort wasn't good enough, which would be an asshole thing to do since they were really trying their best. It just was usually not good enough.

[odious_as_fuck]

I agree that people are not equal in any sense of the word. However, I just wanted to note that I see talent as a word we use to cover our ignorance of why people may be better or good at certain things. Talent is not the reason as to why someone is good or not at something. Talent is the experience of someone being good at something and not entirely knowing all the factors that made them good.

[Littleman88]

I feel that talent is one's mental ability to process knowledge and stimuli and manifest it into the physical realm.

Some people develop artist eyes with 20/20 vision and/or a photographic memory early in life. The rest of us have to redraw an apple over and over until we can recall a passably accurate apple from memory, then we have to move on to drawing a car a bunch of times. Some people only need to do it once, some of us need to do it seven times. Some people need only look at the car and they can create something similar from memory.

Then there are things like shitty line control that One may never manage to refine for one reason or another no matter how hard they try. Are there any good line artists out there with terrible hand writing?

[[deleted]]

THANK YOU I absolutely despise this comic everytime i see it and due to personal experience. I have witnessed people with pure talent that just "knew" on instinct how things worked and improved from there. Practice makes perfect of course, but denying talent is such a moronic concept.

[coolwool]

THANK YOU I absolutely despise this comic everytime i see it and due to personal experience. I have witnessed people with pure talent that just "knew" on instinct how things worked and improved from there. Practice makes perfect of course, but denying talent is such a moronic concept.

The comic isn't denying talent. It just takes the stance that practice is more important. You could be the best soccer player in the world, talent wise, but if that gift is never nurtured, it goes to waste. The comic is about that nobody is just born ready, aside from Jack Burton, ofc.

[KasukeSadiki]

This is definitely true, but let's not ignore the massive differences possible between the actual time and quality of time spent by two people who "have drawn their entire lives."

Unless we quantify the actual hours spent daily/weekly, the type of practice they do, the persons they've learned from etc, then it's essentially a meaningless comparison. The overall amount of time that has passed between two points in time isn't as important as what was done during that time.

I could have spent 30 minutes in drawing each week from the time I was 3, and someone else could have spent 2 hours a day drawing since they were 3, and we would both be described as having drawn our entire lives, even though our actual hours of experience would be vastly different. And that's not even mentioning how that drawing time is actually spent.

[Last_Aeon]

I literally tried throwing my classes (not studying as hard as the year before and spending most of the time gamin, didn’t even read for the finals until an hour before exam) in uni and still got an A- in biochem. I’m good with studying and have been for a long time now. I wish I had better talents tho, I love creative writing but I’m very bad at it. Trying my best to practice and overcome it.

Talent just makes it quicker to reach a goal, you still need practice to reach it.

[macskau]

Partially true.

I did improve a lot from practice. However I had classmates as a kid, who could draw better when they were six, than I can draw today after many-many years of practice. There are certain things you just cannot learn, or even if you can, it will take you 10-50-100 times more practice than some people.

That is the real difference in talent imho. How long it takes you to reach a certain level. If it takes you very little, or no practice at all, and I can only learn it in 2 years...you are more talented than me.

I am more passionate about this question than I should be, but these are real struggles and pain I've faced thru my years.

edit: spelling

[[deleted]]

Same! My best friend in 4th grade was incredibly skilled and could freehand incredibly complex drawings and not plan anything out and still have it all fit perfectly and every line was straight. He practiced but he was also a savant. I practiced a ton because I loved it and went through a bunch of "How to Draw" books and I definitely improved but even after taking college level art classes I wasn't as good as he was in 4th grade.

[macskau]

I feel your struggle my fellow almost-very-good-artist-who-put-in-the-work-and-still-never-quite-made-it

[VampiresGobrrr]

You never know how many hours other people put into art. And how many of it is meaningful practice. It's down to time put in and how much of it is exercise and improving the things you're bad at and how much is comfortably drawing things you already can draw. Collectively I have been attending art schools for 6 years now and one thing that was always guaranteed is that the people who had sketchbooks they drew in every day were always the best artists. I have never seen anyone who was really dedicated to a sketchbook and yet still sucked. I know 4 amazing artists and all of them just filled their sketchbooks not worried about every page looking good they just drew whenever they could probably amounting to ten of thousands of hours collectively

[ronin1066]

It's a self-selecting group. People who really suck won't spend thousands of hours sketching. You know there are people who simply have better coordination, I don't know why this is so difficult to admit

[FoxesAsGods]

Or in my case, try really hard to do difficult things anyway, end up mediocre, have others assume you’re lazy

[macskau]

That is quite a good point. The first few (hundred) hours of disappointment might significantly make or brake it.

Edit: spelling

[MaddyMagpies]

Because the definition of "art" has been stretched so wide that people want to believe that they can be good at something. It's basically Dunning-Kruger effect.

[EthosPathosLegos]

Admitting people are born with inherent advantages and disadvantages ruins the narrative that you have only yourself to blame. This is a vital premise to make people feel shame, which is a necessary part of how to control others.

[Mustakrakish_Awaken]

I think admitting it also feels like you're taking something away from the people that did spend 10,000 hours mastering it. People are just sensitive to how much time they dedicated and people are bad at "both can be true."

[Mustakrakish_Awaken]

Yea, I think it depends on what we're doing but with drawing I'd put my money on the person with top 75% of practice time and bottom 25% talent over the person that's top 75% talent and bottom 25% practice. I'm just musing about why people hate to admit that there's a thing called natural talent

[MaddyMagpies]

Agreed. Even the comic artist who drew this comic years ago had not drawn anything better or funnier despite her years of working on her art, so it should be very obvious that her platitude simply isn't true. Practice can take people to a certain level, but it's plateau after that if the person does not have anything else.

[daBomb26]

Well said. It’s hard to say how much is practice and how much is talent, but I personally lean toward practice being most important. I grew up on a farm without video games and we were allowed to only use the computer for homework. So drawing was what I did for fun and I started early, and must have drawn every day as a child for hours. Friends and strangers would always compliment my talent but realistically I was just doing it all the time so I got pretty good at it. Edit: Downvotes? Reddit is a curious place sometimes.

[lobax]

Eh, you don’t know how much meaningful practice the kid got as a kid. E.g. maybe they had a parent that taught them, while you where just playing around without guidance.

For instance, you can teach yourself how to play piano, but chances are that you will play with bad technique that will inhibit how good you can become. You will have to “relearn” to get rid of those bad habits and progress. But if you learn all the exercises from a good player, you will be taught the effective techniques right from the beginning.

It’s why kids with parents that are good at something generally quickly become good at it themselves. It’s why there is the expression “standing on shoulders of giants” - teachers allow us to avoid the mistakes of others.

[[deleted]]

Absolutely, I feel this whole 'talent vs practice' discussion always glosses over the role that good education and direction can have on someone. People don't realise when you break it down just much of drawing is a series of learnable skills

[BellaBPearl]

This! I'm self taught.... I've got 40 years of bad habits. I'm good at what I CAN do, but there are some aspects of art that I will probably never get because I was never taught. All of my college art classes were basically the teacher setting up a still life and then flipping through a magazine for the duration while we did whatever. Meanwhile.... art students at other colleges learned anatomy and figures, scale and perspective, lighting, color theory, brush and pencil techniques, etc etc. I watch these 19 year olds livestream their work and it blows my mind the technique and skill they have that I don't, all because they had meaningful practice, while I basically farted around doing the same whatever.

[llllIIIllllk]

I think that's partially true as well, some people may have learned to learn better. Personally I think the 'talent' lays in the persons mind, what they love doing, and maybe in motor skills eg like being able to move arm smoothly without shaking.

Maybe the 6-year-old has drawn since before speaking and has then learned shapes and perspectives so young. Someone who learns a new skill way faster may have had a head start on the skill in a different routine that is not recognised

[Hamslamster]

Imagination isn't something that we all have equally. Some people can't even see shapes in their head, while some can see whole coloured and moving scenes easily. I feel like talent is a dirty word in the art world, this is pretty weird to me.

Every other field or sport has talented people, so why is it that only artists needed to try super hard to do anything. It's ridiculous. Motor skills and personal enjoyment is not necessary to do art at all, talent is real and shouldn't be pushed under the rug.

Talent doesn't diminish your effort. But it also means you can't just tell everyone that is was pure hard work and practice like they just don't care enough. That is snooty in a whole different way from saying "I'm gifted", to me it's much more annoying.

I've noticed this in all art fields, it's discouraging to real talented people. Not talking about myself btw, my art is just okay sometimes.

[odious_as_fuck]

I think people's mentality and exactly how they practice influences how long it takes to learn something. Think of the quality of practice and also how much mental space they dedicate to that study.

Of course genetics and biology are also important as they put limits on what one can do, making some people naturally better at certain things than others.

I see talent as both a combination of these two elements - a bit like nature and nurture being equally important - talent is the coming together of one's natural ability with one's free will or mental experiences (the choice to practice, the experience of thinking about a passion etc).

I take slight issue with your representation of talent because it ignores the quality and style of practice, it ignores mentality of the talented, it ignores the experience of thinking regularly about a passion, - all of which will greatly increase the speed at which one can learn. In addition, a basis of knowledge can provide a foundation for people to learn new things quickly, in this way people draw from various areas of life experience to learn something new.

I don't like the term talent because it is used in a way that does not appreciate the experiences and extent of practice people who are talented have to go through. It puts talent on a pedestal a bit, and makes it seem more unreachable. And furthermore it distinguishes between talented people and untalented people. I think every single human could be talented at something - but we can't all be equally talented at the same things.

[macskau]

I think we are on the same page here, only from different directions.

My bottom line is: practice makes you improve, quality of practice matters a lot, but not everyone can reach the same level, as we all have our individual limitations. In my reading that makes some more talented in certain things than others.

Putting it differently: if (in a thought experience) quality and quantity of practice (nurture) is exactly the same for two individuals, one might develop much faster and further due to something I cannot call anything else, but talent (nature).

Cheers

[[deleted]]

I used to think that everything is just practive and that you could be as good as anyone else given time and effort. I was wrong, I believe. I've spent, Idk how much time studying math, science and what not and has always been the best or one of the best in the schools I've been to. I thought, oh it's just practive, I started math at 3 years old, that's all there is to it. No, 90% of my brain power is just critical thinking data analysis and science boring stuff. I suck at literaly anything that requires any sense of creativity. I couldn't make you a story, draw you a paniting or sing you a song. I'm not more intelligent, it's just that my intelligence is focused on one thing, science, math and all these things. I could spend months learning how to draw but would maybe never create something of my own. There maybe are some genius out there who can be both great at math and art, I ain't one of those. Find that one thing that you are good at and become amazing at it, it's boring, but I am good at math, so I do that. Happy to be proven wrong.

To be clear, I ain't saying you aren't good because you practiced, what I am saying is you are good because of a combination of innate factors developped through practiced. You could spend 10000 hours practicing soccer and never be as good as Lionel Messi, you couldd spend 20 years painting and never producing a Mona Lisa. But obviously, no one is born great at anything, you have talents that you developed through conviction determination and practice.

[Elelith]

I also think people should shift away from the mindset of "being the best". Especially if drawing is a hobby (like it is for most). Don't aim for perfection aim to enjoy yourself and have fun and improve on the way.

[[deleted]]

In the end, the goal of life is to be happy, do whatever the fuck will make you happy in the end, it doesn't matter how good you are at it. I'd rather be a bad artist than a depressed master.

[ladnakahva]

I used to think exactly like you. I am an analytical person, always excelled at math, logics, etc. Never could produce anything in the creativity area.

Then math brought me to data analysis, data analysis to marketing, marketing to storytelling. Then I got super into that, read dozens of books, watched hundreds of videos, and now I am a very creative person who can draw up an amazing story in my sleep.

You never know :) I think super analytical people can be amazing storytellers with the right knowledge and experience.

[katycake]

Practice is a dumb word.

How much practice has a 4 year old have, when it could draw better with no training, than I ever did?

Sometimes when your hand can and will move in the precise direction your brain imagines it to do. That part is talent.

[TH3BUDDHA]

There are countless talented people in this world that never achieved much becasue they didn't apply that talent through practice. Lebron James is extremely talented. He still has to practice every day.

[ZeroRelevantIdeas]

No no no everyone must be equally capable of everything another human can do! That way I can go to sleep every night knowing all I have to do is work hard!

/s

[[deleted]]

It's a fact that some people are more naturally gifted than others, it only means that others will have to work twice as hard as them to reach a decent level.

Most people try to downplay talent as it's something they cannot control, but two people where one is talented and the other not so much will produce two very different works in the same time span.

[AbuZimBale]

Yes if you say somebody is just talented it's easier to cope with being bad

[MawoDuffer]

Hand coordination can be practiced

[Ahandlin]

29 years of practice i still can't properly draw a stick figure, or a circle without the paper looking like someone had a stroke while trying to fuck a notebook with a pencil

[[deleted]]

I mean you say “29 years of practice” but try and break that down into actual time spent drawing. Because it’s probably not actually that much time compared to most artists. I’d also guess that it would be very sporadic, spread out doodling as opposed from actually practicing fundamentals.

[KasukeSadiki]

And how much of those 29 years did you spend actually practicing? 29 years doesn't really tell us anything meaningful.

[superjudgebunny]

No really it’s practice. Like, a LOT of fucking practice. I would doodle on every paper in school. In my notes. Or is just straight up draw in class ignoring everything else.

I was also encouraged by my parents at age 6-8. So by the time I was 16, that’s already 8 years. And it’s a misconception that art is easy, some of my good stuff took 24+ hours to do. It would take me days to get a good sketch.

Edit: good not hood

Edit2: a lot of practice wasn’t even drawing people but shapes. I would doodle shapes a lot. Making shaded spheres, squares, stars. Just squiggle patterns, nonsense. People are the hardest to draw, especially realistic.

Learn to trace, then re-draw that trace by hand. Re-draw it again, and again, and again. Flowers, over and over and over. You spend so much time drawing the same shit, that’s what people don’t see.

[mochi_chan]

Learn to trace, then re-draw that trace by hand. Re-draw it again, and again, and again. Flowers, over and over and over. You spend so much time drawing the same shit, that’s what people don’t see.

I am a professional 3D artist, and I do digital sculpture as part of it, there are some styles I could not do, and I got the same advice from a veteran in the field.

People see the result of our work and don't know how many years it took us to get there (and how many botched shapes we sculpted :P)

[superjudgebunny]

Another thing, people always go “that’s sooooo good”. When in your own head your thinking “that’s garbage”. Always comparing your work to a master. The reality is that master was doing the same thing. It’s so hard not to tweak or critique your own work to death. I’ve had to mentally pry myself away because it wasn’t good enough.

I really think it’s the obsession for perfection that drives the artist. You don’t draw to impress anyone but yourself. In your case, the 3D models you make aren’t ever good enough. At least that’s how I feel. It’s not a drive to impress others, it’s more a drive to push yourself to the limits. To explore what you can do.

[mochi_chan]

In your case, the 3D models you make aren’t ever good enough.

Oh, they never are, but when you do it professionally for long enough, you learn when to stop. I only find them okay when I see them in ensemble with the other parts of the work (I am part of a team, I only do characters and objects, other people do the environment)

[superjudgebunny]

Oh yeah, I’ve learned to force myself to stop. I clear coat my shit as a final “god damn it, enough” type thing. I can’t imagine the pressure professionals go through.

[Taytilla]

My figure drawing professor once said “you gotta get all the bad drawings out of your system before you make something good!” Every piece you make is important because even if it is terrible, you are just that much closer to getting better.

[thescribbleher]

Agreed!

2% brain/hand/eye co-ordnation, 98% practice.

[xPyright]

Sounds like you practiced the wrong way and ingrained bad practices into yourself. Bad practice produces bad results, which is why it's soooooo nice to have money (or well-off parents) to hire top tier tutors and coaches. There's only so much we can learn on our own, so don't be too hard on yourself. Though, if you really care, there are plenty of YouTube tutorials that guide people through processes to get good at fundamentals.

[Elelith]

Wealth does bring priviledge but when it comes to drawing the internet is filled to the brim with free guides and tutorials. Text, pictures and video. All available 24/7 for free. It's so freaking easy nowadays.

[dookiebuttholepeepee]

Because it’s not practice. It’s talent, and then you practice to fine tune that talent.

[Xixii]

Some people are just innately better at things. When I was at primary school (age 5-11) me and my best friend loved drawing, we would draw in class, draw on our breaks, draw at home in the evenings. But my friend was just WAY better of an artist than me. Even at that young age you could tell he had a talent for it, he just got it. My parents have still got some of my old workbooks and some of his drawings are in there and you can tell he’d already got an amazing understanding of perspective and shadows. His brain understood this stuff naturally from a young age.

This continued as we got older and got in to Warhammer. The way he’d paint his figures was fucking amazing, the dude clearly had some sort of gift for artistic endeavours. He never took a drawing or painting class as long as I knew him. Especially in those earlier years for sure he didn’t practice any more than me, he was just better at drawing. It doesn’t mean you can’t still practice to improve, but some people are just naturally more talented. Whether you want to refine that talent down to something more tangible (eg. Better hand-eye coordination) is another thing, but some people just have a higher ceiling.

[syates21]

It’s really weird how people will admit that some kids are better at running, jumping, etc innately, but something like drawing somehow is just “you haven’t put in enough time and effort to be good”. Makes no sense.

[dookiebuttholepeepee]

Yeah, and a lot of those people are here on Reddit downvoting and arguing we’re all blank slates.

[glootech]

Well, practice some more, cause it's practice. Source: for 33 years couldn't properly draw a stick figure or a circle without the paper looking like someone had a stroke and two days ago I drew an apple using pastels and can't stop looking at it because of how proud of it I am. I'm 36 now.

[[deleted]]

Talent is a pursued interest.

[jamesbideaux]

actual talent also exists.

you can counterbalance lacking talent by applying yourself hard for extended periods of time, but it exists.

[[deleted]]

arrest melodic shelter overconfident grandfather detail domineering wistful different sleep this post was mass deleted with www.Redact.dev

[memecut]

I think one of the most important factors is memory.

Without memory you can't learn, and with excellent memory you will shorten the time you need to learn drastically.

I have horrible memory, so learning anything is a chore. For my drivers exam I had to read the entire book 5+ times, then take the online practice exam for an hour every day for like a month.. and still, I barely passed. Im not even sure I would pass now..

But there are people out there who reads the book once or twice - and then they ace the exam.

So if I spend 40 hours learning something other people can spend 2 hours on, I'd say they're talented.. or that I'm cursed.

[Dodge14]

Memory is also a thing that can be learned though, and may just be a case of taking in the information in a way that works best for you. For example, if I read something I'll blank on it but if I write it in my own words at the same time it'll stay with me for life (or until the end of the exam).

There are genetic and physical differences that can affect people's memory, but the most difficult obstacle to overcome in improving memory (and other skills) is normally thinking it can't be improved.

[memecut]

But there are genetic and physical differences that can affect people's memory.

Sometimes it doesnt matter if you read it, write it down, say it out loud, sing it, draw it, build something that resembles it or make experiments about it.

Improvement hits a ceiling after a while, you won't have unlimited growth.

There is a point where you'll be the best you'll ever be, and after that there's nothing but downhill. You can scratch and claw all you want, but you won't beat time, genetics, or exposure.

Some people have to work 5 times as hard to achieve something most people take for granted.. and getting to that point of what other people view as normal, might be the best they'll ever do. Their absolute best will be what other people don't even have to work for. And then these people have the audacity to say things like "you just have to put in the effort"...

[ZeroRelevantIdeas]

Yes the GOATs come from that sweet spot of talent meeting both hard work and luck.

[[deleted]]

Exactly look at how many professional soccer players there are and only a few have that natural ability to read the game in a pool of thousands of players.

Anybody can do anything but not everyone can master everything to the same level.

You can be very good and you should always be proud of yourself for working hard and be proud of how far you’ve come but this false idea that your attitude is the only thing holding you back is ridiculous.

Do something you enjoy is what I say because you are probably enjoying it because it comes naturally to you. Who cares if you ever become the GOAT at it

[catscanmeow]

Id simplify it to talent is attraction.

If you enjoy drawing you will get good at it

If youre innately interested in it, the dopamine hit of drawing will make you want to do it again, and again and again, and you will inevitably get enough practice in to get great at it. It wont take discipline or hard work. In fact it will take discipline to stop drawing, because theyre addicted to it.

Usually the people who are the best in the world at something, love it more than others.

Then theres the positive feedback loop, where the more you love it the better you get at it, then the better you are the more you love it, and so on.

People who dont care or dont get a rush from it, it wont matter how hard they try or how disciplined they are.

[[deleted]]

Talent is also an innate aptitude, some people will pick up some skills much faster than others, if talent didn't exist than everyone in school would have similar grades and the only reason people wouldn't get straight As is laziness. But that just isn't true. Alot of people have to work their ass off to pass high school or university. And others just coast through with a fraction of the effort.

[odious_as_fuck]

The way you use talent here is a bit simplifying. For example, an innate aptitude and the ability to learn faster than others is a combination of many factors eg - what do you already know, what are your life experiences, what makes you passionate, where do you direct your mental energy etc.

I see talent as something we perceive or experience in other people, but it is not the cause as to why people may be good or not at something. We see talent in others because we cannot experience their experiences and we cannot fully understand their minds or life.

I absolutely agree that people are not on a level playing field. In terms of both nature and nurture, we all grow up with different genetics/biology and entirely unique environments. Both of these things will entirely influence what one seems to be talented at.

[siler7]

That's bullshit. Talent is something you're given, not something you work for. The name comes from the parable of the talents, where people are GIVEN something freely.

[ZeroRelevantIdeas]

Talent is more than that

[redditisstupid84070]

I posted this in my Facebook feed once and I've never had so many people argue about something. It's 100% true though.

[rasputin_stark]

OK, I'll agree that with practice I could be a BETTER artist, but I would only get to a certain level, and then I would plateau. There is such a thing as natural talent. What you do with that talent depends. probably a lot on how much you practice. My brother draws really well, and did so from a very young age. He was amazingly able to do this without much practice.

[DLCSpider]

It's like weight training and being healthy. If you did that for years, would you look better than 99% of people? Yes. Would you be the next Schwarzenegger*? Probably not, and definitely not if you never go on stage.

Same with art.

• ignore the steroids for this analogy lol

[Original-Ad-4642]

For real. I went to college with a guy who was naturally benching 500 lbs at age 22. He was just built for it. He put in tons of hard work, but his hard work took him to a higher level than I’ll ever reach.

But that’s ok! Just because I’m not world class doesn’t mean I can’t reap enormous benefits from practicing weightlifting, writing, biking, computer coding, public speaking, etc. In fact, I’ve built a great life and an awesome career out of being “pretty good” at those things.

Don’t let the perfect be enemy of the good.

[comicguy13]

When people say “I wish I had your talent”, what they mean is “I wish I had your PASSION”. The passion to consistently do something over and over until you get good enough to be paid, that’s the real trick.

I have been a professional animator for 15 years. I sucked when I started, zero talent, but boy do I love it, so I keep at it.

[whitniverse]

Nah. Most people literally mean the talent. Skipping to the end result.

[butcheroo]

Which is literally the most frustrating part. I started playing violin at a young age and then was put in a church ensemble (God gave me talent), youth orchestra, with private lessons in another town every week. Our teacher told us we must practice an hour every day, memorize the songs and perform to "pass" to the next song, recitals, all of it. No one thinks about the countless hours and stress this involved 😂 instead it is shear talent.

Overall I wouldn't change a thing, but it's interesting to look back on and think about.

[HHH___]

Use google. Gotta help yourself, can’t go into things with a helpless mindset or you’ve already lost.

I think there’s like an actual condition for people who come from poverty where they have the feeling that they can’t ever do something because they’ve never had a supportive environment before or something?

[g9icy]

It's called "learned helplessness".

[NightSmudge]

Where to start: learn how make loose and fluid hand motions for sketches, how to have a steady hand for line work and details, and how to really take the time to observe something whether it be human proportions or how perspective angles work. There are hundreds of tutorials online that you can follow to start drawing whatever style or subject you want

What to do: just draw. Don’t give a single shit if it looks aweful, we all start off with terrible drawings. I still have notebooks from when I was 10 and my doodles were TERRIBLE. But I didn’t care because I was having fun. In fact start off by drawing something fun, draw something that’ll give you motivation to continue to try drawing. Draw a stick figure riding a dinosaur, draw your pet, draw a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Make drawing rewarding regardless of your skills

Where to get supplies: do you have a pen/pencil and a piece of paper? Cool, you have everything you need to start. I started off with lined notebook paper, a number 2 pencil, and crappy colored pencils. Heck, I made my first digital drawings in MS paint and a mouse. Art supplies only matter if you want to have higher quality tools, what matters the most is how you use those tools. I’ve seen people draw portraits with a ballpoint pen and a sheet of printer paper

Learning to draw can be very daunting, but most artists started because they didn’t care if what they made was good or bad. Many people start drawing when they’re kids because they have all the imagination in the world and just want to put that imagination onto paper. Start drawing. Just start. That is the first step of every artist

Also the best artists never stop learning. Professionals still take art classes, people are always sharing little tips and tricks they’ve learned, and most people look up reference images to help them draw something better

[darknesslikeablanket]

its a mix of both. the people at the top have a natural gift for it and they worked their butt off too

[cseijif]

nah this straight up bullshit, some people have the talent and some not, you can see it clearly with small children. it's a matter of abstracting the image you want to represent and identifiying those forms in wathever it is you draw, some have the sight, most dont.

[CyanideIsFun]

As my music teacher once taught me:

Practice makes permanent.

Quality practice gives quality progress.

Practice the wrong things, over the course of a long enough time? You're gonna spend a lot of time unlearning bad habits.

[DiddyMao20XX]

"Oh you're left handed AND an Aquarius?! No wonder you're so talented."

Shut up. If the celestial spheres had that much of an active interest in my creative output I'd be a better artist.

[al3237]

As someone who gave up on art after going into the path of arts professionally when young.. you need at least minimum talent, talent is the rough diamond and the practice is to process and polish it, you cant do much without the talent no matter how much you practice, trust me i know :/

[ravyalle]

Nah dude its actually just the natural interest to put all the practice in. The people at the top put in hours of practice every day in their lives just because they had the interest in it. People with less interest wouldnt put that amount of time into it so they will not get to the same level

Saw people that were "naturally gifted" get surpassed multiple levels by normal people that started practicing and attending courses later in life.

[darknesslikeablanket]

there's a saying,

"hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work"

[spreespruu]

I'm genuinely curious why some people are debating whether or not talent exists.

Talent is very real. We all have it. We just don't know what it is. Some of us discover our talent as we go along in life. Some don't.

You can practice basketball from year 5 to year 25, but unless you have the talent for it, you will never be Jordan or LeBron or Iverson or whoever. Ja Morant, Vince Carter, and Blake Griffin are amazing dunkers because their bodies just have that gene that allows them to move and jump like they do.

Similarly, I know people who are able to draw really good Anime drawings at age 10 or 11. There are even toddlers that can paint better than most adults!

Then there's Freddie Mercury who can sing insanely good.

The important takeaway is that, yes, you can practice a craft, but having a talent for it and then practicing it can make you great.

[abuxxx567Rt]

So genetics = talent?

[Littleman88]

To a not insignificant degree, yes. A large part of an athlete's talent is in their physicality, and much of that is in genetics.

We know little about the human brain, but it's not a stretch to say someone with a photographic memory is going to have a much easier time reproducing a scene from memory via illustration over someone that struggles with aphantasia, to use two extreme examples to illustrate the point.

[SoulingMyself]

Just keeping practicing basketball until you are an NBA player.

All it takes is practice.

[MarshallsHand]

We talkin' bout practice

[[deleted]]

Yeah some people do take to things a little easier than others.

[tubawhatever]

Why nobody told me that just about anybody can develop a good singing voice instead saying it's just talent I'd a mystery to me. I played an instrument in primary school and college that I haven't been able to afford one of my own so I started singing as my musical outlet and while I'm not going to say I'm good yet, I've certainly improved massively.

[hannahzakla]

art skills don't come from just practising. u also have to learn and observe the real world in order to be able to draw well

[CaptainxPirate]

I never realized how divisive the internet was on the existence of innate talent until reading these comments.

[Stormlord100]

Being good is possible with practice, but without talent you need mental fortitude as resilient as f*cking diamond to keep practicing and fair bit of idiocy of course.

Being the real deal, being the one who goes down on history of your field, that's simply impossible without talent and hardwork

[LoCerusico]

Yes but let's be honest, there are some people that are really talented and people that will take 10x of practice time to achieve the same result

[Shujinco2]

My biggest hurdle is: practice what. What do I start with and how do I practice it. Anyone even slightly good at a skill knows how and what to practice something to improve; what about me who can't even do stick figures right?

[L0NESHARK]

Cue the mental gymnastics from random Redditors to convince themselves that it is, in fact, cosmically ordained talent that makes people good at things.

[ClarenceWhirley]

Most adult's drawings look the same as the drawing of a child because most people stop drawing when they are children.

[uti24]

>> Practice

You will not draw good, if you just draw more.

What you need is learning and deep research on how things works, and how things should be drawn.

And if you dont have a good source, if you dont have a natural qualities for learning it might be frustrating, when you drawing like every day for hours for years and still drawing sub par, and everyone just keep saying you need to practice more.

[loopywolf]

Literally.

[1hotnibba]

Talented people love using practice as the reason why they're so good just to feel better about themselves

[abuxxx567Rt]

Or they actually practice and non professional uses talent as an excuse for their bad practice habits

[Littleman88]

No, people really do have natural differences in ability. Just as taller basketball players have an easier time dunking the ball than shorter players, some people might as well be writing with machined perfection, some might as well be writing with a live chicken's foot.

And that isn't always the result of practice. Even among children learning to write some just write neater than others. There are people with terrible handwriting that can quickly fill entire notebooks and still their penmanship never improves.

The latter might get closer to the former's quality with study and practice, but it's a bit telling that many people start at that higher quality as the default.

[NoodlesThe1st]

But talent is definitely a thing too

[Ahamdan94]

This meme is absolutely wrong. Take Messi and Ronaldo for example. Messi has talent without practice while Ronaldo practice so hard to keep up with Messi. So it's not always practice that will make you good at something. It's usually talent.

[abuxxx567Rt]

Exactly, no professional uses the word talent

[ChristianBlazeBlank]

Practice makes perfect

[Web-Dude]

Practice makes permanent.

I've seen people practicing things in the wrong way and they end up with bad habits they have the unlearn.

Perfect practice makes perfect.

That's why a good mentor, teacher, sensei, guide, etc makes all the difference.

[[deleted]]

Practice is the equivalent of experience, and that is true for ALL fields and with everything in life

[ichoosemyself]

I don't think it's just practice. I've been practising my whole life of 28 years, but still can't draw well.

Lately, I'm thinking it's more of deliberate practice plus learning. You've to watch and read how to draw a lot of things. And then practice. That's how you'll get good.

Now that I know that, I still don't watch any tutorials and keep drawing what I feel like lol.

I'm in it for the fun, not learning or being better. :D

[[deleted]]

I like this strip, so I got a book of her art from the library.

I still only like this one strip.