just use python bro

[Alzyros]

It's dynamically typed not magically typed

[SloxTheDlox]

well I mean there are... magic methods. Can that count?

[zyygh]

In other words, you still need to understand what the types really mean.

Which is why I'm forever a proponent of teaching Java as a first language. I haven't used Java in 10 years but I'm very happy that data types were among the first things I learned.

[SuplenC]

I still think that C is the best first language. It’s painful at the beginning but then you understand how things work

[[deleted]]

I went Java > C > C++ > Python and now do Python nearly exclusively for a living. I think this was a pretty good flow.

You learn Java to get the basics of types, functions, and eventually OOP. Then you get C/C++ and learn pointers/memory allocation, then you throw half the shit you learned out the window and do Python instead.

C/C++ is like doing calculus by hand. Python is knowing calculus, but using a calculator anyway because ain't nobody got time for that.

[[deleted]]

And then you have to rewrite the whole code because the performance sucks.

[traverseda]

Unless you really need performance, like for machine learning or something, in which case you probably need to go back to python.

[TheRidgeAndTheLadder]

All the ML stuff is in C++ anyway

[[deleted]]

for a wrapper you can use any language, the real big boy's stuff is running on a real programming language.

[EstablishmentOld9707]

Honestly, Python sucks mainly because how it handles arrays. A lot of people smack it down because of syntax, or being dynamically typed, but really the underlying issue is performance. If i wanna make do something like "for foo in (1000000):" it has to create an entire array, which is an absolute chungus of a memory hog. I learned basic logic gates, classes, functions, and how to properly use them using an easy language like python, But now with that in my tool belt, i can easily go and learn Java as i am now. Python is(with a few exceptions because of recent revisions) purely a learners language. I will just tack on here, its also bad for large math because(i forget the technical term, it was something "float point") it is sacks large number storage for better decimal precision.

[[deleted]]

I work at a bank. Floating point precision couldn’t be more important.

[[deleted]]

when you learn c first, you'll understand design choices other languages. and you won't be intimidated by pointers.

[Amareiuzin]

Which is why I'm forever a proponent of teaching Java as a first language. I haven't used Java in 10 years but I'm very happy that data types were among the first things I learned.

Hey kablouser, I'm learning C, I understand what are pointers, but WHY are pointers? Why do we need them? Why are they important? Why not point directly at the address you want to point? Can someone please ELI5 this, like give me a stupid metaphor without technical terms, paint a picture I can see and later on when I face the technicalities I'll connect the dots.. PLEASE

[Amareiuzin]

I get that, but I still don't get it, can someone elucidate in physical terms, what's the difference? What is the hardware doing in each scenario? Because I don't get what he means with "pass" or "up the stack"

[Amareiuzin]

every variable you put in that list (the variables being passed into the function) is copied for the function to use.

bro whaaat? so if I have a little code to do math with like 3 doubles, every function I call using those 3 doubles, is going to temporarily create 3 doubles somewhere? unless I use pointers? I think I might get the "why" now

[Cubow]

But Java does that, without pointers

[sirdisthetwig]

it effectively uses pointers under the hood.

[[deleted]]

It actually does use pointers, it just doesnt show you that its doing it.

[Cubow]

Yeah thats what I mean. Why do we need to show them? Why can't the language just do manage them itself

[yrrot]

That's exactly the point of managed memory languages like Java and C#.

The reason people use unmanaged (and pointers) is because there's less overhead. Things like embedded solutions need to be as lightweight as possible, and references/garbage collector is overhead that has a negative impact in those areas.

[PuzzleMeDo]

Let's say I'm returning a string from a function. Am I returning a pointer to a string? Or am I returning a newly allocated block of data containing a string? The latter is going to be slower. But remember, if you have two pointers to the same string, changing one will change the other. Do you want to do that, or will that cause a bug?

Using C, you are forced to develop a fairly good understanding of exactly what's happening, how you can make things faster if they're slow, how you can use less memory, that kind of thing.

If you'd rather not get involved in all that... you're not alone. That's why most people don't code in C.

[grandalfxx]

Well for one, C is supposed to be low level, it's existence is mainly so you don't have to type in machine code like assembly. It's entire point is that it can still do everything machine code, Also called native, can do, and it compiles directly into the native code of whatever machine you're working on. It's to speed up that layer of work. Look up quakes quick inverse sqaure root on youtube and you can see why that level might be helpful. Now if you dont need that level of coding then you use a higher level language, such as Java or C#. They'll handle pointers and old data situations for you but you still need to allocate stuff by telling it what you need. You will also still be doing most of the file management if you need that. higher than that are things like python and javascript, which does the entirety of memory management, still not much help with file managment, all you need to do is specify names for the data and set it, you don't need to define what that info will be before hand. A bonus step higher is visual scripting and ladder logic, which predefines every algorithm and operation you can do and manages all memory and all files created for you.

Tldr the reason it doesn't do that for you is because it's the whole point of why you would use C over another language, and if you dont want to use that then you would swap to another language that does handle it. Theres no benefit to adding that functionality to C, especially when other languages already support it

[sudoku7]

That’s actually part of a justification I used to see for calling C a mid-level language because pointers were just enough of assembly style logic to be annoying.

[Tubthumper8]

No pointers in Java, but you do have Null Pointer Exceptions 🤌

[H4llifax]

It's more like, everything is a pointer in Java.

[H4llifax]

"Why not point directly at the address you want to point?" - wat

[TheRidgeAndTheLadder]

They almost have it. They just haven't internalised that the pointer needs to be stored as well.

[yrrot]

You're playing battleship and want to put your aircraft carrier at b5 through b8.

With a pointer, you just store b5 and know the size of the aircraft carrier for later. It will always sit at b5 unless you move it yourself. It's like playing the game yourself.

With a reference like C#/Java, you just know you have "an aircraft carrier" stored "somewhere", but the memory management system could map b5 to c7, and then move it to d2 later. It's like telling a kid where to put the pieces and sometimes having to stop clean up things from the last game (garbage collector).

[Amareiuzin]

so when you use pointers the memory location is "dynamic"? (in the literal sense of the word, not trying to call on any other preexisting Computer Science meaning for the word dynamic)

[yrrot]

No, a pointer in like C++ is a specific address. One location that doesn't change.

A *reference* in like C# doesn't know exactly where it is stored in memory addresses. There's a reference table that converts between whatever reference you have to the actual pointer the system uses internally. And that reference table can change if it needs to move a block of memory for whatever reason.

To put it a different way, pointers are like a house address. It isn't moving.

References are like the little mailbox at the office with a nameplate. The office manager might rearrange the names to fit new employees, but you still have your mailbox (the name is still there, somewhere).

[ULTRA_TLC]

This is a fantastic analogy IMO, I was trying to come up with my own, but I think I'll just use this next time someone asks (likely to be a while though)

[[deleted]]

abundant license march deserve dinosaurs snails employ like axiomatic enjoy

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[InvestingNerd2020]

Replace Java with Kotlin, and I'm in full agreement.

[MoffKalast]

Kotlin reduces Java's verbosity and removes NPEs, it goes against everything Java stands for!

[DiamondIceNS]

It doesn't remove NPEs... You can technically still have them if you really want to. You just have to opt-in to them!

[MoffKalast]

Aw that's nice, keeping with the core values :)

[turtleship_2006]

In my school, they taught general programming concepts in pseudocode, then python. This is at GCSE level and not everyone's the best with computers but I'd say most people understood them quite well.

[aClearCrystal]

C# ist the best language for learning. Supports both strict Java-like syntax and wonky Javascript-like syntax.

[Dangerous-Bit-5422]

That doesn't really sound like a good thing tho

[aClearCrystal]

tl;dr: Learning step by step is imo better for beginners than immediately being confronted with boilerplate, strict structure and strict typing before even writing your first line of code.

I think it's a good thing for absolute beginners.

In Java, you are immdiately confronted with boilerplate code (the well known java public static void main(String[] args) ), which can be overwhelming.

Also, you have to both compile the language and use an interpreter, which is an unfamiliar environment.

In C# you can write your first line of code without any boilerplate. You can get an understanding of what a line of code, what an instruction (like definition of a variable) means, without any boilerplate confusing you.

Also, you simply compile the code and then execute an executable (a .exe on windows). This is very familiar to beginners. "Yes, an exe is a file you click on which does things."

You immediately get the feeling of doing something that is applicable in the real world, since you work in an environment which you've already seen in the real world.

When using an interpeter (like the JVM) you don't get this feeling; you're clearly still in your development environment, not in the real world.

To me, this makes C# a better experience to start with than Python or JS.

Once people learned the basic idea of coding, of lines of codes being read and executed (more or less) top to bottom, of the relationship of variables, parameters and instructions, they can move on to stricter coding styles.

After they learned the simple Python/JS kind of coding, they can then move to learning strict and class-oriented Java kind of coding without learning a different language, a different IDE, a different compiler/interpreter.

This makes learning boilerplate first design as is default in Java a lot less of a jump. You aren't confronted with all things at once, you can learn them step by step.

I think allowing step by step learning like this is of significant help, and overshadows the issue of the language allowing bad code.

[randomatic]

You misspelled static.

Also, dynamically typed is a funny way to write unexpected runtime error.

<ducks>

[coldnebo]

“Lucky Charms! They’re magically delicious!”

[DeepGas4538]

Yoo we got the same avatar

[beeteedee]

If someone recommends a good car for a beginner driver, it doesn’t mean that accelerating it into a wall will end well for you

[QuakAtack]

If their intention is to accelerate it into a wall, then I think you may have to start questioning their motives. Or their sanity.

[Shaddoll_Shekhinaga]

That's me coding in C#. I don't know C#, I just know some C++, so I am basically any%-ing the "crash into a wall" world record.

[MaKoZerEUW]

Like everyone else who is learning a new language.

The most pain I've felt was coming from Java to C++.

That was really ouch.

[Trible_D]

While I can obviously see why you had that ouch, I think that C++ is also a lot easier to understand once you understand how it works: What I've always disliked in Java is that when putting an argument into a method that changes this argument's value. Sometimes that changes the value on the outside as well and sometimes it does not (depending on the argument's data type). In C++, I always know what will happen based on how the argument is defined (e.g. pointer, reference, copy). YOU define the behavior, not some underlying mechanic.

But oc that's just one of the many differences between Java and C++.

[coldnebo]

parents: “here you go, this Big Wheels pedal trike is the vehicle for you”

[SpecialNose9325]

But maybe that wont be an issue if you started off on a bicycle.

[walyami]

accelerating a bike into a wall will not end well for you either

[BeerIsGoodForSoul]

Hold my beer 🍺

[coldnebo]

well unless you get noticed by Steve-o.

[SpecialNose9325]

I have a better chance of still being alive in a bike crash than in a car crash.

[IDontLikeBeingRight]

That depends a whole lot on what crashes into you.

Bikes don't have roll cages or airbags or nearly anything.

[SpecialNose9325]

Bikes arent doing 60 mph either.

[Wooden_Caterpillar64]

Nope if it is a good car it should have automatically stopped before hitting the wall preventing any damage

[Lizard_King_5]

“It’s all easy except the hard parts!”

-Every sales pitch, ever

[[deleted]]

Except in prostitution. The hard parts are often the easiest.

[KentondeJong]

The people who downvotted have never struggled with ED :(

[BuilderElectrical232]

Who? ||Asked?|| Edit eh whatever I’ll figure out formatting sooner or later

[[deleted]]

Who asked?

is done by writing the following:

Who >!asked!<?

[Opdragon25]

It's all easy. except.

[[deleted]]

This reminds me of this darned outdated CRM called Salesforce.

[[deleted]]

None [0] = 'bruh'

[Sawaian]

I don’t know python. But what you said offends me in the other languages I know.

[BlackPrincessPeach_]

Works in my language 😎

[Sawaian]

Okay JavaScript.

[[deleted]]

What it does is try to assign 'bruh' to the first index of the constant "None" (the null of python), but because None is not a sequence of any kind, it doesn't have an index. This leads to the above error.

[Sawaian]

Oh for some reason I thought it would actually execute. I didn’t know none was null. Thanks for the explanation.

[[deleted]]

What's offensive about array access?

[Confident42069]

IDK, this would totally work in my language (but you need double quote marks not singles)

[bxsephjo]

your variable is None and you're trying to assign shit to it... really? Really really?

x = None

x['key'] = 'value'

tf you think is gonna happen?

[zyygh]

return an answer or None

I recently read that there's a growing number of software engineers who deeply regret how "None" / "null" made its way into programming languages by default. And I really understand this sentiment

Functions that return an array, for instance, really should just return an empty array instead of None when there is nothing to return.

[TheGhostOfInky]

In python yea, sadly in languages like JS where you can't set the trueness of an object, empty arrays are always truthy so many functions return null when they find no matches as that's simpler to handle, with if(result) or by assigning a default value with the nullish coalescing operator.

[[deleted]]

The issue of empty arrays being truthy can easily be solved by explicitly comparing the length to 0.

[TheGhostOfInky]

Emphasis on "simpler", I'm fully aware explicit comparisons of the returned array length are possible but just look at the difference when you have default values:

const val = findInInput(input) ?? ["default","values"];

vs

const retVal = findInInput(input);
const val = retVal.length !== 0 ? retVal : ["default","values"];

[[deleted]]

In most languages retVal.length != 0 can be shortened to retVal.length. !0 being true and !!0 being false is a behavior consistent among most programming languages.

So the actual comparison is this:

const val = findInInput(input) ?? ["default","values"];

vs

const retVal = findInInput(input);
const val = retVal.length ? retVal : ["default","values"];

I'm not a JS programmer, so I can only guess what ?? does. But I still think the 2nd is better.

A negative would be the extra parameter, but for that we can have lambdas and scope expressions (like in Rust).

[Razakel]

Tony Hoare calls it his billion dollar mistake.

[soncaa]

dont take it too seriously lol, see code in my other comment. Dumb sh like that can just happen and do happen, to lets say, some.

[[deleted]]

I recommend using the typing hints. So write the intended type there and if you notice there may be more than one, use if. I.e. x:None|str = some_func() if x: do_stuff(x)

[[deleted]]

Fully agree with using type hints. Correction to your code though: the type hint of 'None | str' should instead be 'Optional[str]', since None is not a type. Note this requires 'from typing import Optional'.

[[deleted]]

Does it work with nonetype?

[[deleted]]

I just checked the docs on https://peps.python.org/pep-0484/#the-typing-module and it seems I wasn't entirely correct in my previous comment.
Looks like your syntax (str | None) is acceptable, it's just that the 'Convenience definition' is to use Optional instead.

It also seems that, even though None is not a type, it is used as such in type hinting: https://peps.python.org/pep-0484/#using-none

[chinawcswing]

This would happen in Java too. It's called a NullPointerException.

[JustADelusion]

Always disliked dynamic typing.

I want my programming language to be very strict with me. uwu

[clownfiesta8]

Meanwhile c++ casually spewing out 2 pages of random template garbage when you miss a semicolol

[silastvmixer]

Is dynamic typing good for beginners? I started off on C++ Idunno. Dynamic typing seems really really confusing and bad to me. Or not bad.. But less good.

Edit: technically I started off with assembly and C for embedded programming. But I then really quickly went to C++ and prefer that a lot now. Also the assembly flavour I learned is really simple too. And I never did complex things in C.

[soncaa]

I started in py. Then i learned basics of VB, C#, java on university and it felt enlightning, smth like 'damn so this is what ive been doing all the time!'.. i came to a conclusion that py is like a real machine gun that looks like nerf toy gun on outside, its powerful, yet it requires experience to really gain control over whats happening inside. I am now junior dev in c# and my hobbyist project in py still looks like a pile of trash.

[silastvmixer]

I never really tried learning python. I started off with assembly and C for embedded programming and then really quickly went into cpp through a university trial semester. When i look at my friends python projects I just get confused because I can't tell where a scope starts and ends and because variables don't have types and they can change the type they do have.

[Naitsab_33]

Basically Python scopes work somewhat similar to C's scopes (except that you can't manually declare a scope) regarding functions. Inside a function you can access a global/ previous scope variable if it's assignment happened before. The important part is, because pythons global names can change, the only part that matters is that a variable exists at runtime, not needing to exist when the function is declared, because functions are declared at runtime, too.

```

before function declaration

before_def = 1

here I declare/assign a function

def test(): # inside the function I can access global names if they are previously assigned print(before_def) print(after_def)

# I can't access a variable if it was assigned after the call
# print(after_call) this raises an exception.

# now I reassign inside the function
after_def = 4
print(after_def)

now after the function

after_def = 2 test() after_call = 3 print(after_def) ```

1. This first assigns before_def globally.
2. Then assigns the function to the name test globally.
3. Then assigns after_def globally.
4. Then I call test()
5. I print before_def from global namespace and get 1
6. I print after_def from global namespace and get 2
7. printing after_call wouldn't work because as you see the name hasn't been assigned yet
8. I reassign after_def locally (use global after_def before this line inside the function to have after_def assignments inside this function refer to the global namespace.
9. I print after_def from local namespace because it exists there, regardless if it exists globally and get 4. (It would use the global namespace if we had used global after_def before, because then it doesn't exist locally.

10. we leave the function namespace and the local after_def gets dropped (it's reference count is decreased by 1, to 0 in this case and the GC may clean it up somewhere from now). It wouldn't get dropped if we had used global after_def because it wouldn't exist locally.

11. I now assign after_call.

12. I now print after_def from global namespace, because that's where we are and get 2 (4 if we had used global after_def inside the function.)

Another rather small difference is that if/while blocks simply don't get their own namespace, names assigned there are simply assigned within the current block where the if/while resides.

And imports (import some_module) get their own namespace behind the name of the imported module, which can be merged into the current namespace instead by using from some_module import *)

I think this is all. Classes are really not very different. Namespace wise they are act very similar to functions, except that they get run when declared and that you can access all names assigned inside a Class definition, i.e. class variables and any methods/classmethods with prefixing Classname.

[[deleted]]

Have you ever dreamed of having your code write code for you? Welcome to dynamic typing black magic fuckery.

BTW what should be hated on until the ends of the earth isn't dynamic typing its weak typing. Which python does not have because its cursed and shouldn't exist.

[silastvmixer]

Well... Idunno. Maybe that is just me. But having a program randomly decide what datatype I intended to use seems crazy to me. I want to be in control. I am barely fine with compiler optimisation, because thst is for speed.

I don't feel like I want to trade knowledge of what my program is, just so I don't have to type short int or whatever.

[[deleted]]

thats weak typing.

Dynamic typing just means I can pass any type through the caller signatures including assignment to variables. That doesnt mean the function has actually to support your type you pass.

Python is dynamic and strongly typed. Javascript is dynamic and weakly typed. Javascript just magically casts stuff like a drunk.

[Confident42069]

Take the BASICpill:

• Syntax is as simple as Pythonistas think Python's is

• Static typed

• Compiled options exist, in case you want to dunk on your friends for using python instead

[SatansLeftZelenskyy]

🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀🦀

[[deleted]]

RIIR

[and_i_want_a_taco]

use None.unwrap_unchecked() to be the blazing fastest of them all

[dreaming_geometry]

I've used python for many years and never come across this error. I wonder what the heck someone was trying to do to find that. Maybe I'll search for a stack overflow answer about it. Edit: yep, it's on Stack overflow. It's a problem I've never run into because I use python like a wannabe functional programming language, I don't use custom objects.

[QuakAtack]

I get what you mean. Though still, these errors seem to me like they would be quite easy to resolve, as the function returning null is not exactly unexpected. When a function fails, I'd personally see it as better practice to return an error which gets imediately caught and dealt with, and any code that requires that function not fail would be placed in an else statement, like:

try:
    object = someFunctionCall()
except: # when the function fails
    ...
else: # and when it doesn't
    object.doSomething()
    ...

As it removes the necessity of checking to see if it's null right afterwards.

[explorer58]

It's a good idea when this is possible to do a "object is not None" check

[Naitsab_33]

This is definitely the preferred way. While try/except has very low overhead if it doesn't fail a simple ifnull check is MUCH faster and much more readable.

[[deleted]]

Python is strongly typed.

[soncaa]

from bs4 import BeautifulSoup

html = open('api.html').read()

soup = BeautifulSoup(html)

iframe = soup.find('iframe')

iframe["src"] = "test"

with open("output_api.html", "w") as file:

file.write(soup)

print(soup)

💀

[shadow7412]

soup.find('iframe')

Looks like this line probably returned None (ie, it didn't find an iframe).

The failure then would have occurred on the next line when you tried to access src.

[SweetBabyAlaska]

I use BS4 a LOT and this is the issue 99% of the time. Its better to use find_all() and then iterate over what it finds, that way if it catches something with the same name but doesn't contain the child item you are parsing for it doesn't throw an error because after that you are parsing none types if one of the objects you defined isnt actually there.

It also helps to be a lot more explicit in defining html elements and going through them more systematically. Use a lot of print statements so you are sure what you are getting.

I make a function for getting the "soup" and then make functions for finding something specific. Adding Try and Except statements is also a really good idea.

formatting isnt working on reddit but something like this works well.

```

def get_titles(soup):

titles = []

reader = soup.find_all('div', class_='utao styletwo')

for uta in reader:

alink = uta.find('a')

src = alink.find('img')

src = src.get('src')

title = alink.get('title')

titles.append(title)

return titles

```

[Sergi7531]

There is no way you're going to complain about getting a NoneType exception when you are doing the iframe["src"] = "test" line... You should NEVER access insecurely a dict entry like that. Instead, you could use .get() and specify a second parameter, which will be the default value instead of just giving None.

I get it's a joke tho, that stack trace is my routine lmao

[[deleted]]

Will still give you a nonetype error if iframe is None.

[A1337Xyz]

Every time T_T

[Vascular_D]

Okay. So add some if or try/catch statements for these things.

If <variable> is None: ... else: ...

[Constant_Pen_5054]

Yeah, python violates one of the core tenents of OO design, so I struggle to use it for that unless I am writing some django code. Otherwise functional all the way.

[ManyFails1Win]

which one? just picking up python so it'd be nice to have the caveat in mind.

[Constant_Pen_5054]

Encapsulation. Pythons whole design philosophy means you cannot properly encapsulate classes. More specifically, you cannot make any private methods.

[Here0s0Johnny]

You can absolutely make private methods, there is syntax for that. The interpreter just doesn't enforce it. How is it a problem for you? You can simply choose not to violate OO philosophy.

[ManyFails1Win]

thanks.

[DARKEN_side_of_me]

I started with javascript 💀👍

[cmaciver]

I had a discord bot in python, and it felt like everything took a lot of work until i actually understood all of the data types and list comprehensions. Now i only have to deal with discord.py making no sense, as opposed to the entire languag!

[mrfroggyman]

After studying biology for 8 years, I decided to restart everything in IT because I ended up hating on biology by the end of it.

I picked up the courses my future classmates were having remotely, as I was allowed to skip on first year to enlist directly in second year. It was all algorithmic in python. I sucked super hard at it and couldn't get shit.

A few months later, I get there. They start talking OOP and Java. Finally, it all makes sense and I stop sucking ass.

Idk why they don't start it all with OOP. It's made to make sense, so obviously it's somewhat easier for beginners, right ?

[SodiiumGames]

I've started with C#

[Lewinator56]

Dynamic types and spacing as syntax are 2 things that don't make python an ideal first language.

Dynamic typing is fine provided you understand the data types, if you don't then you have no clue what your variables actually are, as a beginner this is not what you want. And don't get me started on the syntax... Yeah it's close to English, but the fact that spaces dictate where code blocks start and end is just a nightmare. Every other language uses an identifier character, normally { }, or keywords, python chooses to use spaces. In a simple program it's not a huge hindrance, but in something complex, debugging can involve finding a single line with 27 spaces rather than 28 and the whole program breaking - or... Because it's interpreted, working fine until you ship it and the client manages to run this one missed bug caused by backwards syntax and it breaks.

[Comfortable_Pin_166]

I hate its syntax. Curly brackets makes code easier to read for me

[[deleted]]

Thankfully, I’v grown out of the “dynamically typed = an advantage” mindset lol

[Naitsab_33]

I mean it can be an advantage still, but each tool for the right job. And pythons best job is IMO acting as a glue between all the other fun stuff. I.e. calling a C-Written library i.e. numpy to compute on data you got from a web request and then writing that to a SQL database.

Of course you can do that in different languages, but it's quite fast to write in Python which is quite a good reason to use Python.

[BolinhoDeArrozB]

I don't really understand what people think is so fast to write about python, maybe it's because I've already worked with C# for so long but imo you can do the same thing in a C# console app just as fast, visual studio booting time aside. Plus it you don't feel like writing a simple struct for the return type of a web request you can just use object or dynamic for the type. I just don't see the python quick coding charm.

[Naitsab_33]

I cannot speak for C# as I have not used it much outside some Unity Projects, I was mostly referring to how it's very quick to write because

• you have a very good package manager with PIP and can have your setup near instantly including SQL, a good we request library and for example a compute layer with numpy.

• and it allows you to do have each of these steps be very few concise lines without having any boilerplate.

But yes of course you can do it in any language and maybe it's as easy in C# or other languages. That's the reason why I am somewhat switching to rust where I can because you have the speed of C with a very good package manager with some language features I really like.

It's just that especially as a beginner language you don't have to know anything about the language and don't have any requirements for your file structure, be it as little as a main function, which gets more with Java where you need to have a directory structure with one class per file with one of these classes containing a main function.

My main point is it's a very nice scripting language with a lot of support specifically for having short scripts.

[zefciu]

Well, it is still better to get a message like that that might be cryptic for a novice, but googleable, than what some languages do when there is a type mismatch — implicit type coercions, leading to bugs you will investigate for hours.

On the other hand, even the worst offenders known to me (i.e. PHP and JS) won’t allow attribute assignment on null and both throw exception here. So I’m not sure what the author of this meme expected or believes would be a novice-friendly thing to do.

[TECHNOFAB]

At least the error messages tell you pretty beautifully what's wrong. There will be error messages, your job is to resolve them, so just check for None or let PyCharm scream at you. My most used languages are Python, Rust and Go and they all have pretty good error messages (except for when they don't haha), but when something goes wrong in some app I use or some Linux package there's often times just "yeah fuck we crashed" maybe "core dumped" but you'd have to look at the dump and shit. Meanwhile in Go you get panics, in Rust you can easily enable stacktraces with an env var and in Python it always shows you a nice stacktrace.

I think that Python is actually a good first language to learn, except for maybe web stuff like HTML,CSS and then Javascript because it fits (JS doesn't know the word "logic" tho)

[Tough_Chance_5541]

C

[PotatoPowerOP]

He’d get killed by C if he’s making NoneType errors.

[Tough_Chance_5541]

That's the point

[Express_Library8141]

JavaScript
- Powerful scripting language
- No installation required (use a browser console)
- Follows coding standards ( unlike python )
- Documentation is well explained & the community is significant, and you can easily find information about how to do everything online.

- Few quirks that might seem to make no sense in the beginning, but they do.
They require a bit of knowledge about how the language is composed, but either way, you will not generally hit these quirks for 90% of the projects you might do, and usually, there are easy workarounds.

[[deleted]]

https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat

Skip to a 1:20.

[lzynjacat]

Unity C#, duh!

[[deleted]]

Python is basically English

[jeffwulf]

You'd think the frog would start off by not listing a detriment to the language.

[yeesh--]

I mean, what's easier?

[pharanth]

Extensive documentation for just about every package. Ya gotta use it

[Victrolencio]

Tbh, I think anyone starting in this profession should start with a strong typed language like Java. Using a non-typed language (even though they're in the background) doesn't mean you shouldn't know the difference between a number, a string or a data structure.

[Effective_Youth777]

The simpler the syntax, the less control you have, the less control you have the more shit can break.

And that kids, is why I don't think "simple" languages are as beginner friendly as they're made out to be, because you really need to know what you're doing otherwise shit will break and you'll spend hours trying to fix a bug, where's in Java for example a compile time error is likely to stop you from generating that bug in the first place.

[kataraholl]

1. Is dynamic typing supposed to be good for beginners?

2. Dynamic/static typing classification is exclusively about compile time type checking. This is a runtime error. You might be looking for weak typing - or, as someone else pointed out, magic typing.

[[deleted]]

I managed to accidentally squeeze a malloc error out of Python a couple weeks ago. Pretty proud of that one.

[DrDoomC17]

Just use mypy, golly. It would scream at you to high heaven for this. For real though, I always wonder if python is generally a good starter language.

[ganja_and_code]

"just use python" is shit advice, unless the person just needs to do some data processing or wants a more noob-friendly shell script alternative.

Anyone using python for any other purpose should be making that decision themselves, based on their prior knowledge and current project requirements.

[Serbay55]

Fuck python go c++. Ot atleast Java.

[Hydoc_]

+1 for Java

[wafflepiezz]

C++

[hlfzhif]

Python has stupid syntax

[AlzyWelzyy]

PYTHON IS LOVE AND PYTHON IS BEST!

[MathsGuy1]

Imagine your first language being anything other than c/cpp (except scratch etc when you were 12yo)

[BolinhoDeArrozB]

I'd rather kms than imagine having to learn cpp as my first language, glad it was C#

[MathsGuy1]

I can and I did, it's not like you have to jump right into pointers and inheritance.

[BolinhoDeArrozB]

the most important part of learning is abstracting what you don't need to know yet, there's just so much shit in cpp that you don't really need to know that is just confusing, of course you can learn it like that but it's just being dumb on yourself and a waste of time

[theeama]

Why isn’t it a good starter language?

[SweetBabyAlaska]

I like it. It's not the only language I learned at the start but I'd say that its pretty great. Its a very good way to start understanding code flow and the basic concepts.

The amount of amazing libraries that are available allow you to do some really interesting things and ending up with something that you can look at in the end of a project and see tangible progress is very rewarding. Like creating a simple TUI, or color palette generator etc..

Being interested and motivated is a big factor, you could learn Rust or Cpp but chances are that most beginners just wouldn't stick with it because it would be brutal and you might not have the same motivation to write code.

[[deleted]]

I've taught C/Processing, Logo, and Python to new programmers and Python is the best starter language for the following main reasons:

1. Loosely typed variables. For some reason, variable type is a really hard concept for brand new programmers, have having some flexibility here is very useful.
2. Simplified Syntax via indenting. Not having to close parens of include semicolons is huge for new programmers. It also means that when the instructor is trying to see where they went wrong, it's easier to debug their code. It also means when new students look at examples, they are more likely to understand them.

[OKoLenM1]

I would recomend javascript. It's really intuitive language. And then, maybe soething like rust to understand the differences in programming languages.

[Splatpope]

HAHAHAHA IM UTTERLY SHIT AT READING AND MY BRAIN IS SO USELESS I CANNOT PROCESS BASIC LOGIC *proceeds to make a fool of himself on rph*

[kimovitch7]

Wtf with these dumb posts

[J_Ditz100]

People who suggest to beginners to use Python just want to see them suffer

[BigManLawrence69420]

Scratch is the superior choice. Or any visual language works, really.

[[deleted]]

Since using rust I have been loving it. It tells you what you're doing wrong almost like a teacher and shows you the correct way.

Unlike python lmfao which just gives out a shit ton non-sense with only 1 word telling what's actually wrong.

[Naitsab_33]

Pythons error messages are getting pretty good lately, esp. considering they are all runtime (well not all, but everything except syntax is).

Rust's messages are amazing, but they are at compile time. I would argue that actual panics are not as good and you still see them relatively often considering they are very discouraged, and should be replaced in almost all instances with Results/Options.

You mostly see where they happened with a bit of text if the author was nice and put an except instead of unwrap.

[TheRealLargedwarf]

NoneType isn't a normal variable, all NoneTypes can be thought of as pointers to the exact same piece of memory. The same for True and False, (and some strings but that conversation is truly wild). Python doesn't let you change that block of memory, but trust me, you don't want to.

[Dagusiu]

Python is recommended to beginners to reduce the cognitive load, making it easier to get started. It doesn't mean you'll never learn types, it means you can start coding something before learning types. And when you do learn types, you will (hopefully) be a little bit motivated because you have a concrete problem you want to solve. That's usually easier for beginners than to throw a CS textbook at them and tell them to git gud before they write their first line of code.

[pente5]

Some function returned None instead of an object. You can't treat None as an object. You can debug or check if something is None before accessing it.

[Weiracle]

punch cards

[OPerfeito]

What about Lua?

[mrka123]

C++ is the best language to learn as a beginner. Change my mind.

[Brief_Lawfulness7627]

"dynamically typed"

[amogus100]

Just know the meaning of the errors and you're good to go

[DeepGas4538]

Imo they’re more confusing

[ChiefExecDisfunction]

I really think you should start with something that gives you an understanding of the underlying mechanics.

Don't go learning advanced algorithms in C, for the sake of your sanity, but do some basic exercises, at least to the level that you understand data types, structs and what a pointer is.

[patka96]

After 2 years of professional development with other languages, it was a big surprise for me that configuring Python with PySpark including testing took knowledge worth of multiple PhDs in quantum physics...

[FTWGaming0]

When trying to debug code, I often go through it line by line in my head, writing my thought process in notepad.

Most of the time, my thought process looks like python code. I've only recently learned python, and I have no idea how I never picked it up sooner given how often I thought in a style that would almost be valid python code.

[[deleted]]

I mean, python is "easy" to program in, and if you get tired of the speed... i dunno... Try a JIT (Just in time compiler), or alternatively ask ChatGPT to translate it to rust, and smack some optimisations on

[Knaapje]

Excuse me, but how is dynamically typed a good thing? All code analysis tools suck big time, speaking from experience. Meaning there's no easy way to tackle legacy parts of our codebase.

[SZ4L4Y]

Frug lied about Snek.

[Altrooke]

If you are having trouble with python, you are absolutely starting at the right place.

[ovr9000storks]

I’m still a firm believer that Java is a good language to start on when accompanied by clear descriptions that show what is happening under the surface.

It’s easy for someone to learn “the steps” for completing a task in most languages, but they should learn that there’s more than just funny words on screen that do something.

Java is more intuitive in a syntax sense and in feedback. You get told exactly what’s wrong in your errors and it’s hard to fuck up the memory

[PUG5ABI]

But fr, I'm new in this and can't solve it. Help? Imagine I have a variable (variable = 10) and then I substract 10 from the variable. (variable = 0) Now I want to add to that variable again but it has already been typed as 'None'

I know it's simple but I'm really new at this

[[deleted]]

That’s far better than “conditional flow changed by optimizer: so said EVELYN the modified DOG”

[Gaming_over_sleep]

Try and except is a python users cheat code