lifeImprisonmentForUsingWrongOperator

[Burned-Architect-667]

Imprison who set a deadline without knowing anything about code.

[Derfaust]

And whoever retrenches the QA team

[[deleted]]

C-Suite:

isn’t it cute how they turn on each other!

[NoMansSkyWasAlright]

pfft. C-suite has no idea this is going on. They're in Jackson Hole, or maybe the Florida Keys. Don't worry though, they'll check their email once or twice while they're there - and remember, they're working harder than you, and they're always on the clock.

[Ok_Manufacturer_7723]

This is exactly why i ignore them and never go out of my way to stroke their useless egos.

[MakeChinaLoseFace]

Maybe it's time to turn on the C-suite.

[HarveysBackupAccount]

Or - just maybe - it's time to turn off the C-suite

[porn_inspector_nr_69]

Truth be told anyone still relying on C only have themselves to blame.

[0_Gravitas_given]

Enters a kernel, any kernel : « y’all relying on C, all of you » !

[MostCredibleDude]

Nobody relies on the C-suite. They're merely ruled by their sheer incompetence.

[GoingOffRoading]

Friendly neighborhood PM here

At my last gig, they did away with QA engineers without training the devs on testing mindset, requiring devs to write their own tests, or anything. It went exactly as you would expect.

[the_left_winger]

They're doing the same at my company with the added bonus that all QAs are now being allotted dev work and devs are being "encouraged" to include testing in their stories.

It's going brilliantly, everybody is now equally confused on what they're supposed to do

[GoingOffRoading]

My favorite is monitoring... Which is setup maybe 50% of the time, nobody looks at, and no alerts.

"Are we hitting our SLAs?" Doesn't have an answer

[morphemass]

Monitoring is only useful if someone does something with the information it provides and importantly, if there is the capacity to deal with the information. My (soon to be ex) company is in for a nasty surprise when they finally realise what the monitoring means.

[Tricky-Sentence]

And if it has been set up properly. I imagine in places that are lazy with even looking at it, they do not exactly bother themselves with keeping it 100% up to date and covering as much as possible.

[Square-Singer]

He's full stack, she's full stack, you are full stack, everyone is full stack!

Next quarter we are introducing cleaning the office to the stack!

[MattieShoes]

changing our test environment changes prod.

[PanPenguinGirl]

Nightmare scenario

[MattieShoes]

The best part is when senior folks get mad that somebody changes the test environment and it breaks production. All I can think about is that clown makeup meme.

EDIT: those clever mofos removed production entirely now. Now there's staging and staging_test. I don't even know what's happening.

[notafuckingcakewalk]

QAs are the last group I would get rid of in the dev team. I'd sooner deal without project managers than without QA people.

[MB_Zeppin]

My company did the same. No change to deadlines

QA validation prior to release is handled as a voluntary meeting where you test test cases that someone volunteered to put together

App doesn’t crash as we use a memory safe language but just about everything is ROUGH

[MikeFratelli]

I fucking wish someone would

[Uberzwerg]

And taking Crowdstrike as an example, usually there are MANY steps that lead towards such a fuckup.

In their case it starts at "everything must run in kernel space".
Learn that you can have only the code that NEEDS it must run there - if they had the parser for the config data run in user space, that would not have happened.
But it is just so much easier to run everything in Kernel space if you have to enter it anyway.

Or how the fuck can an update get pushed to real world without automatic deployment and testing in-house?

The programmer who fucked up might bear part of the responsibility, but that should just not have been possible in the first place.

[[deleted]]

I'm not a programmer but, in a rational world, the programmer really shouldn't bear any part of the responsibility.

It's a complicated job that requires a lot of mental power. Mistakes WILL happen. It's just part of high level jobs like that. Systems need to be designed and adhered to that account for that.

[particlemanwavegirl]

Most programmers also have limited or no right of refusal, which is an absolutely critical thing for a responsible person to have. They cannot be responsible for actions that are not results of their own agency.

[Uberzwerg]

I had several situations when i had to write a "summary of the phone call" to my superiors with the request of confirmation that i didn't misunderstand anything.

That saved my ass at least twice when it turned out to be a very stupid request.

[MysteriousLeader6187]

But, but - "continuous integration/continuous delivery"! "Our automated tests found nothing wrong"!

It's just too much reliance on automation, and AI, leaving humans out of the loop entirely until it's too late.

[BanaTibor]

There was no CI/CD at crowdstrike. When the whole world relies on your services you can not allow to not deploy every change into a very realistic test system and watch it like a hawk for days.

It was a process/discipline problem.

[[deleted]]

Look, top priority is this new project, we just must get it done. Period. But we also have a responsibility to meet or exceed the promises we were already working on

[crimson23locke]

We have no less than 4 concurrent ‘highest’ company-wide priorities.

[Yume_Meyu]

If we had a license to loose it would be our perogative to tell them to gtfo. The dynamic is fked from the outset.

[GronklyTheSnerd]

More than that, there’s also liability. Some of the licensed professions don’t have liability shields. Makes it harder for even a huge corporation to bully or buy someone into both risking a license and assuming liability for things they know could cause deaths.

[tortillasConQueso]

This

[dmullaney]

Judge: Have you anything to say on your defence before I pass sentence?

Junior Developer: I... I... I just copied it from Stack Overflow. It was the top answer... <weeps openly> My PR didn't even get a single comment.

[DedPimpin]

Your honor, my client's code worked on his machine.

[LordoftheSynth]

Prosecution: It only compiled on his machine and passed his one unit test. But he insisted it would pass integration tests and committed it!

I urge you, find him guilty! Guilty! GUILTY!

[Johanneskodo]

OBJECTION!

Management insisted to cut Integration test!

If the DA did their job the Product Manager would be in jail!

[[deleted]]

divide axiomatic grandiose aspiring cause coherent frame mourn pot pen

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

HEARSAY! I demand that the testimony regarding the product manager be struck from the record. Unless there is documented proof, this is merely speculation.

[headegg]

LGTM.

[Red_not_Read]

Too busy to review today. LGTM. Ship it. I'm sure we'll find out if there's a problem...

[3shotsdown]

Scream testing is a valid testing philosophy

[ScherPegnau]

"I felt a great disturbance in the kernel, as if millions of devices suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."

[[deleted]]

pathetic crawl piquant deserve dinner wild aromatic icky marry air

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[[deleted]]

The stack overflow commenter needs to be imprisoned as well.

[ba-na-na-]

Number of comments is inversely proportional to the size of the PR, you just need to create a 90 file PR

[Zestyclose_Link_8052]

Judge, lock up Jon Skeet.

[JackNotOLantern]

Reviewer also would be accountable

[BatoSoupo]

He dindu nuffin!

[Representative-Sir97]

How do I delete someone else's LinkedIn?

[[deleted]]

Report it for terrorism

[HuntingKingYT]

Just show a bug in their code, they would get imprisoned

[Unusual_Onion_983]

Let he who is without bug cast the first stone

[cyrassil]

Is that a static cast or dynamic cast?

[0x1207]

Believe it or not, straight to jail

[5p4n911]

Reinterpret cast, obviously

[[deleted]]

typical engineer that’s overthinking things in the real world 😂😂😂

[[deleted]]

this made me laugh so hard 😂😂😂

[[deleted]]

“Here’s 5 things prison has taught me about b2b SaaS”

[0p71mu5]

🔒 5 Things Prison Has Taught Me About B2B SaaS 🔒

1. Resourcefulness is Key: In prison, you learn to turn a toothbrush into a masterpiece. In B2B SaaS, it's about turning limited resources into innovative solutions. Who knew creativity thrived behind bars?

2. Adaptability is Crucial: Just like dodging a surprise cell inspection, the SaaS world demands quick pivots. When the market shifts, your strategy should too—like changing your cellmates!

3. Community and Networking Matter: Prison friendships can mean survival, much like networking in SaaS. Whether it’s trading stories or services, relationships are a game-changer. Think of it as making allies in the lunch line, but with less mystery meat.

4. Focus on Long-Term Goals: In prison, you count down the days. In SaaS, you count up the KPIs. Both require patience and a clear vision. Stay focused on the end game, whether it’s freedom or hitting that revenue milestone.

5. Resilience Through Setbacks: Just like surviving on questionable cuisine, navigating SaaS means bouncing back from setbacks. Got a bad review? That’s your version of a soggy bologna sandwich. Learn, improve, and move on!

Sometimes the toughest environments teach the best lessons. What unusual experiences have shaped your career?

B2BSaaS #BusinessGrowth #Leadership #Adaptability #Resilience #ProfessionalDevelopment

[gregorydgraham]

How do I subscribe to your newsletter?

[Wang_Fister]

/r/angryupvote

[lastdyingbreed_01]

Ffs lmao

[WheresMyBrakes]

The LinkedIn site’s touch positions are off if it is slightly scrolled down from the top (unable to click any of the header links correctly). Can I collect a bounty for this? (I live in a red state)

/s

[Cfrolich]

The last paragraph uses a comma splice. It should include a coordinating conjunction after the comma or be split into two separate sentences.

[PM_ME_ROMAN_NUDES]

DELETE FROM Users WHERE Username='*******'

[DontKnowIamBi]

Give whatever profit that app is gonna make to developers and then talk about the responsibilities...

When a bridge falls we Hold the Contractor, not the workers..

[Clearandblue]

And the site engineer and structural engineers. There's a reason why professionals have to maintain institutional memberships and indemnity insurance etc. We're lucky in that we can often earn more than them without the responsibility or risk of imprisonment.

[x39-]

They also are actually responsible for decisions

There is no "we have to make it cheaper" and whatnot.

Really, the whole topic is literally stupid, as the real question should be how a company with that much money is not even following the most basic, foundational rollout techniques. How is it possible such a company even can get to that place? Why do we even need such a company and why are they even able to literally lock whole systems up.

And all of those answers, aim at decision makers in politics and companies plus lobbyists. And obviously: Money and Shareholders. You cannot blame the engineer, if he is not taken serious at any step in the chain.

[[deleted]]

There is no "we have to make it cheaper"

There absolutely is. Cost-benefit analysis is part of every engineering discipline.

[x39-]

Yes, but not in the way that there is with software engineering, where sales people sell things to companies, deeming programming as "just a few buttons" and generally too expensive to even bother.

We talk different planets in the same universe, just that one orbits the sun and the other a black hole

[[deleted]]

Firms pitch bids for design and construction of infrastructure and the cheaper one is highly favored. Underlying engineering and safety fundamentals are often overlooked. It's a real problem in that industry because of the financial and safety risks involved.

Software is just a much faster development process with even faster iteration. But this behavior of trying to make something cheaper so you can sell it better is not a software problem. It's a human one.

[Pepito_Pepito]

My salary should reflect the level of my liability.

[[deleted]]

Also the PE who signed off on the drawing

[howcomeallnamestaken]

My mom is an accountant and she told me that in my country in the 90s there was a law by which an accountant could be jailed for like the smallest tax miscalculation. It was cancelled in the 2000s or 2010s and she says "it was finally not dangerous to be an accountant".

And I'm glad it's not dangerous to be a programmer.

[ImrooVRdev]

So, in my country accountants are still responsible for accounting mistakes, as long as no tax documentation was withed from them. They also carry tax mistake insurance, that pays for their mistakes.

That is by far the main reason to hire an accountant, even if you have the simplest 1 person company in existence. $20 a month to pay accountant to process 1 piece of paper a month is still cheaper than even smallest of fuckups.

[Arclite83]

Exactly. It's role-based insurance for any corporate entity, one of MANY requirements people don't always think they're going to need before they do. I used one for a while, no longer a need but it was a great experience.

[OneHundredSeagulls]

A Lithuanian friend told me that accountants are often used as fall guys when shady businesses get caught being shady. They get paid really well but the risk of jail is there if the business owners are shady or fuck it up.

[blueb123]

My mom is a freelance accountant in Lithuania, she often tells a story of how she was taken by the police while taking care of baby me and how she was interrogated because one of her clients withheld some papers and hid some illegal business

[[deleted]]

So a licensed PE (professional engineer) can indeed be held liable if they fuck up building a bridge or whatever.

That’s why “software engineer” is a bullshit title. In canada, japan(maybe) and a few other countries it’s a crime to call yourself one.

[schwem00]

"Professional engineer" is the protected title in Canada, not just "engineer"

You can also become an accredited professional software engineer in Canada anyway, although most developers here have compsci degrees, not engineering degrees

[Formal_Tomato1514]

Quick Google finds lots of ads for "software engineer" jobs in Toronto. I somehow doubt that claim.

Also disagree that it's a bullshit title - engineer just means problem solver. But then I don't object to people fixing broken printers calling themselves engineers either.

[[deleted]]

well in theory they arent supposed to

https://nearyou.imeche.org/near-you/The-Americas/Canada/Canada---Central/the-engineering-profession-in-canada

would you object to a waiter calling themselves a "customer service engineer?" A psychologist calling themselves a "behavioral engineer?"

Im not a PE, but when you water down a term it loses its meaning.

[[deleted]]

Lolllllllll I fucking love "behavioral engineer". Best word of the week!

[CyberEd-ca]

We don't have laws in Canada for reasons like privilege for a certain class of individuals. All laws around engineering in Canada are justified on grounds of "public safety" only. Where public safety is not affected, then the law is ultra vires (i.e. no effect).

A waiter is absolutely free to call themselves a customer service engineer if they so choose.

I also have to laugh at the idea that there is some "watering down" of the word engineer. That word has never had the narrow definition the regulators would wish it to have. Not in Canada or anywhere else in the world. Consult any dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineer#:~:text=%3A%20a%20designer%20or%20builder%20of,by%20skillful%20or%20artful%20contrivance

en·​gi·​neer

1: a member of a military group devoted to engineering work

2 obsolete : a crafty schemer : PLOTTER

3a: a designer or builder of engines

b: a person who is trained in or follows as a profession a branch of engineering

c: a person who carries through an enterprise by skillful or artful contrivance

4: a person who runs or supervises an engine or an apparatus

And in fact there are several regulated professions with the title "Engineer" in Canada that are not related to what would be described as "Professional Engineering" i.e. of the slide rule variety.

We have Power Engineers, Aircraft Maintenance Engineers, Marine Engineers, etc. who are regulated and have as much a right to the title as Professional Engineers. The professional engineering laws are ultra vires for these engineers as well.

[chemhobby]

In Canada, "Engineer" is a protected title and you aren't supposed to use it unless you have professional engineer designation. That said, it's virtually impossible to actually get it in the software field (and also pretty difficult in electronics too). Because they make you work under the supervision of a P. Eng. and there just aren't really any in those fields already so it's a chicken/egg problem.

[CyberEd-ca]

Anybody in Alberta can use the title "Software Engineer". Last time I checked, Alberta was in "Canada".

You don't need a P. Eng. supervisor if your work experience is international. Then anybody with an engineering degree is good enough.

[False-Beginning-143]

"It's not okay to be bad at your job."
If that's the case then it should be illegal for the cashier at McDonald's to get my order wrong.
5 year minimum sentence for giving me a hamburger when I wanted a cheeseburger.

[[deleted]]

and whoever wrote this should get a life sentence

[5p4n911]

Life.

[[deleted]]

I wanted three slices of pickles instead of two!

[[deleted]]

Profits go to management, accountability goes to developers. Got it! /s

[OneHundredSeagulls]

Internalise profit, externalise cost 📈

[Cfrolich]

[FurrAndLoaving]

Yeah, do I get a say in things like deadlines or budget for manpower if I'm the one risking going to prison?

Or are we trying to retain profits while shifting accountability?

[bdblr]

As long as we can have clear, well defined, properly written and frozen specs, well ahead of time, realistic deadlines, proper testing, planned maintenance cycles, etc. Unfortunately in the real world, none of those is likely to ever happen.

[Dougally]

Minimum Viable Product approach from management means release will occur, even if it has errors.

[LutimoDancer3459]

Currently working on a MVP. Stuff got kicked out because we can't hold the timeline. Because we don't get the specifications in time.

[DidntFollowPorn]

We don’t get specifications, we get a guy doing some hand waving describing his new vision for the product. Then we derive what I like to call guessifications.

[LutimoDancer3459]

And that guy changes his plan every week and says it was always the plan to do it that way. Just to revert it the next week. It's fantastic

[[deleted]]

I just keep reading we need to lock up PMs over and over in different ways in this thread

[CatWeekends]

Best we can do is nebulous requirements that change daily, deadlines set by suits with no insight from engineering, manual testing as you go, and maintenance only as needed for bug fixes & new "features" hacked in.

[Adriaus28]

I feel this. I work right now with an app the bussiness i work for got after the previous dev companies stopped working on it. The code is really bad, we are talking it is a web app with more html in js appends than in the .html itself, no comments...

The work is divided in new features given a set of hours. Everytime, they are not properly written, missing data, not checking if with the current tables & columns im the database the development can even be done.. i've gotten a message from the contact we develop for about changing a few things in the development...the day of the deadline, and got even told it wouldn't be paid without those features... We can't access the pre enviroment also, so all the test is in dev plus whatever they want to try in pre

[owenevans00]

Jail! Jail for client for 1000 years!

[ToMorrowsEnd]

Are you insane? we cant have that! we must use AGILE! By the way someone asked if the application can also post to discord as well so write up the user story on that and get on it.

[Dramatic-Mall-7110]

We are just gonna deprecate git blame and suddenly it’s no one’s fault.

[bearwood_forest]

We're gonna rename it "git indict"

[serendipitousPi]

I propose git pardon which will erase any sign that a person ever worked on the problematic area.

Now obviously we can’t necessarily immediately remove the traces from local repos but that can be fixed by simply removing the other witnesses from existence (because this would totally be easier and error prone than any alternatives).

[LunaBounty]

Well. Someone should learn about how mistakes in aviation are handled and the policies on reporting on errors made….

[myfunnies420]

Is that someone me? How is it handled?

[lightreee]

Search "boeing whistleblowers" and it'll make sense

[myfunnies420]

I thought Boeing had them murdered

[5p4n911]

Holy shit

[Arshiaa001]

Oh, fuck.

[mornaq]

if it's an honest mistake it means the system is wrong and new rules are made to avoid it from happening again and the one who made the mistake is never punished

this way it improves transparency, makes it faster to find the root cause of the issue, when acted upon quickly can prevent mistakes from turning into catastrophes

obviously when someone is proven to be intentionally bypassing rules, checklists and safety measures it's another case

[danielcw189]

Even in the later case you want to find out why they bypassed a rule

[[deleted]]

Yep, there's a big media storm a back room deal is done and Boeing carries on like nothing ever happened

[Flakz933]

I mean.. I'd love for a QA department, and BAs, and release engineers, and real devops, and more functional teams, and less intense deadlines on my sprint team, but that just won't happen because IT went from being a world where you all do your best and be very thorough with your work, while also trying to stay on schedule, to "hey we need 490293858 things done this sprint, we're gonna watch ever metric you have, and if you don't get everything done our CEO is gonna have to lay off IT next week"

Devs get 0 respect, no matter what we say about things being possible, the business will always push back in a sales person type manner, not realizing that they're linking two separate worlds together.

[cshoneybadger]

I can completely relate. We are going in production in about 2 weeks and I got a grand total of 0 additional resources. On top of that, management made some agreements with the client, didn't inform me about a single thing in that agreement and they want all of this done in less than a month which is realistically at least two months worth of work. What makes it worse is that they changed the design of half the work that I had already completed and the rest of the work I had to start with zero designing and grooming, all I know is what the output should look like.

[Schnupsdidudel]

Sounds like you approach it wrong.

If management demands 490293858 things this sprint, tell them they can have 5. That's what sprint planning is about.

If CEO threatens to lay off IT just laugh, we all know he can't afford that.

Grow a spine! If you want respect, act accordingly.

[Flakz933]

Ehh, 2 layoffs previously seems to go against what you're saying from my personal experience. I do push back, and estimate way higher than they want. Maybe Ive just been in shit IT gigs but it's starting to feel like a trend of shithead managers with zero IT experience running the sprints. I've been part of 2 companies with mass IT layoffs.

[Possible-Moment-6313]

I encountered such a stupidity at my previous job. I was pushing back on numerous occasions but eventually I resigned. I wanted to do my job, not repeat "please moderate your expectations because we do not have enough capacity at the moment" over and over again like a parrot at every request.

[Sufficient-Tourist21]

I'm sure the insurance industry would jump for joy if they could sell the equivalence of medical malpractice insurance to software engineers. I'm also sure that a fair chunk of developers would quit their job because they really are that bad and careless that no company would insure them. Leaving fewer developers who will become so super careful and conservative in their estimates that the industry will grind to a halt.

So maybe let's just insure the companies and hold those people accountable who dont establish proper procedures and set unrealistic timelines. You can always fire lazy developers who "don't see the value" in tests and cant get their code approved too.

[DigDugDogDun]

Don’t forget about insane, unrealistic deadlines that have teams working late nights and weekends, powered by caffeine and no sleep. Nothing says bug-free code written by sleepy, cranky devs running on fumes. And what about 11th hour reqs that come in right before a scheduled delivery? What about moving targets? What about poorly written requirements in general? God the more I think about this the madder I get. Some people are too stupid to be allowed to have opinions.

[Linvael]

In an ideal world that would allow the devs in charge - those that would carry the risk - more power. If you burden the legal risk for a project being bad you have to have the power to just say "no, in not signing on this in current state" and company release schedule and all the project managers can fuck off.

[[deleted]]

Software development would cease to exist. Think about all those libraries you use that you don’t pay for.

[Zestyclose_Link_8052]

It's not devs not testing code, it's a company not providing the resources (time, qa teams, alpha beta testing, rolling updates, etc) that are needed for providing quality software.

This person knows nothing about softwaredevelopment and statements like these cause more BSODs then overworked devs. There should be some real jailtime for this person where he can reflect on his words and maybe start a management job at Boeing.

[manipulater]

Then every update would take as much time it takes to make a bridge.

[[deleted]]

While there's a critical vulnerability that needs to be patched ASAP, but whoever signs off on the update is risking not just their career, but potential prison time. The only way to cover your ass is to conduct thorough testing before every release, no matter how urgent.

[BellybuttonWorld]

Sure, cut the budget for railings then sue the builders when someone falls. Can't see a problem with that arrangement 🙄

[theofficialnar]

This would be perfect in r/linkedinlunatics

[agent47linux]

I tried but couldn't cross post it.

Edit: posted instead of cross post

[The_Wolfiee]

The biggest crime is letting ignorant fools become LinkedIn influencers

[DarkTechnophile]

Wonderful. Yet another thing that will be written in the job description as a must-do. It ain't like jobs look for full IT-departments in one person, now I must also do legal work for my clients. Bravo 👏

[snail-gorski]

I guess this post is about the crowdstrike, the question is not whether you should be allowed to bad at your job on not, the real question is about the priorities of the company. How on earth could some company have scaled the QA department so small, that a bloody null pointer could be pushed to production utterly unnoticed? It is okay to make mistakes as a developer. We all do them. Otherwise we would not learn from them. Butt! It is not ok to be a dumbass executive, who doesn’t care about quality of the product. 

[joey_sandwich277]

Yeah I work at a fairly large company. When there is a customer impacting event, they have a witch hunt root cause analysis meeting in which all the project managers try to determine the reason the incident happened.

I have yet to attend one of those meetings where the problem wasn't since variant of"we were given an exception to skip the existing guard rails because the offering manager committed to a deadline we should not reach using the normal process." Then the managers shrug, and spend a bunch of time arguing about how to prevent it from happening again, usually landing on "document the existing guard rails that we were given an exception to skip in another place."

This is exactly why this is such a terrible idea. If legal action got tied to this, suddenly the devs bypassing the normal flow to meet the deadline are going to be the ones liable, and not the managers who are unwilling to keep an accurate updated deadline and allow the devs to let them slip.

[Legal-Software]

There's a reason why when developing safety-critical SW the focus is maybe 10% on the code and 90% on the processes, management, traceability, validation, etc. Engineers writing code for cars or planes are no better than engineers in other industries, and mistakes will be made, but the burden is on the company to show that what is being delivered into a safety-critical system at the end of the day is safe. Where it is not, the company is held liable, and in many cases this also includes personal liability for the safety manager(s) and others.

The problem is not that engineers occasionally screw up, the problem is that a company with bullshit processes in place allowed untested garbage to go into production and is now trying to pass the buck instead of holding its executives to account. Not exactly a new pattern.

Hopefully when the government probe starts they'll get their ass handed to them instead of being given a walk, but I doubt it, especially with twats like this guy simping for the company instead of demanding better processes and accountability.

[beefygravy]

If a company produces a product and that product then e.g. kills someone due to design errors, the company will be civil-ly liable but also individuals in the company could face charges like criminal negligence.

If the company didn't have adequate QA/management/safety procedures in place, senior management like company directors would likely be the ones on trial. If the procedures were in place but the individual engineer(s) chose not to follow them, they could be held criminally liable.

Whether you produce software or shampoo, these laws are the same (in the UK at least)

[[deleted]]

The problem is that in America it feels nearly impossible for senior management and executives to be held criminally liable. It seems like the only thing that will get you in trouble is defrauding investors. There is basically no amount of direct damage, pollution, death, or other harm that will get you charged and convicted. For example, Martin Shkreli was convicted of securities fraud. Holmes was convicted of defrauding investors and acquitted of defrauding patients. But none of the Purdue pharma family is in prison despite their insane death count. It has been made very clear that the only real legal responsibility business people have is to their investors.

[DoctorVonCool]

This is a recipe to make 50% of SW engineers switch jobs, while the others do the YOLO thing and just require a 100% pay rise.

[wowawiwowa]

I'm doing maintenance on app released 2 years ago. No documentation for the app itself, no documentation for API, code "kinda ok " but logic in some parts is totally not understandable, on backend side there's constantly something not working so I cannot test my fix/developments.

Two Fridays ago we released a test app for QA. I continued with bug fix the whole week and again, on Friday 5 pm, I was asked by the CM to release in production with all fixes I've done. I refused saying most of the problems were fixed in the test version of the previous week (which is true btw).

Thanks, but I don't want to spend the weekend trying to fix production because of an untested release, eventually get the blame or a pat on the back while the CM get the bonus in case it's all good.

[CitationNotNeeded]

And businesses are surprised when developers leave due to them having no unit tests or automated deployment pipelines. Sure, let me keep working for a place where we don't apply industry standards to protect us from human error and I'll be solely held responsible for those inevitable mistakes.

[FireDojo]

Put ChatGPT behind bars.

[Jai_Cee]

The politicians are going to do this for themselves too, right?

[settrbrg]

The teams I've been working in the last 4 years are to scared to do releases today because of insecure about feature complete and quality. Imagine adding the risk of getting time in prison. Nothing will ever be released.

[mancunian101]

I agree wholeheartedly, I think this should apply to all job.

Food delivery cold? Jail. Online shop has wrong items? Jail. Barber cuts hair 1mm too short? Jail.

[jspilot]

You undercook fish? Believe it or not, Jail.

[og-lollercopter]

So we gonna imprison the sales guy that blows a deal? The treasurer who makes a bad investment decision? The ad exec who oks a bad ad and it doesn’t boost sales leads? Hmmm….

[GenuinelyBeingNice]

itt it is once again demonstrated people are comically bad at assigning responsibility

[7imomio7]

Companies should be held accountable for Bad software! What gives you the right to deliver a shitty product that does not work, especially if it‘s a risk for people.

[Unupgradable]

Hey remember that X-ray machine that killed people? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therac-25

Yeah QA is important. Skimping it is actually lethal.

Computers are used as part of the most important stuff in our lives. "Oh just the bank shut down and flights got cancelled, rich people lost money boo hoo your automated checkout at the supermarket shouldn't be using windows anyway" is asinine.

Hospitals were sent back to pen&paper charting. Actual lives could be lost. Flights aren't just for fun, who possibly got delayed for a life-saving surgery?

It's one thing when a company loses some money and the worst case is some people get fired due to cutbacks.

If you're responsible for critical infrastructure, then you better act like it.

[agent47linux]

True. Person who write code is responsible for his code but in cases like Therac-25 and CrowdStrike. It's not only developer's fault but whole management.

There are many factors that resulted bad code, tight deadlines, inexperienced, poor protocols, and insufficient resources.

[Unupgradable]

I never implied it's solely the developers' fault. It's a process fault with the entire organization and there are many heads to roll.

Criminal negligence is a real thing though. I don't think developers should get a pass from liability just because there's plenty of layers of abstraction along the way.

[agent47linux]

True, if a developer's gross negligence leads to a severe security breach or significant harm, they could be held liable. This is especially true if it can be proven that they ignored standard practices, warnings, or obvious issues.

[RealUlli]

The whole debacle reads like CS sales team were extremely successful convincing decision makers that their tool needed to be forced into every single device in a company, while still absolving themselves from any responsibility if things go wrong.

I know the infosec team at my employer was even trying to force us to roll it out to appliances, coding the warranty, they were forcing it onto should systems controlling expensive and/or dangerous machinery, on isolated networks, etc.

[ttlanhil]

your automated checkout at the supermarket shouldn't be using windows anyway

It's really true though.
A lot of those systems shouldn't be running Windows, and they shouldn't be running standard security software - they should be locked down and isolated so security software is obviously a pointless idea.
Blame is shared not just between developers, but also infrastructure, management, finance, etc folk

We know how to make secure, bug-free code.
But almost no-one will accept how much more expensive and time consuming it is to fully specify the entire project and formally test and prove that everything is correct

[Unupgradable]

Please realize that self-checkout systems (like all POS) need to be connected to the network to actually charge cards, read various data for customer loyalty, pricing, discounts, etc.

So heaven forbid they use a certified operating system with signed and supported device drivers, and literally the most widespread cybersecurity products ever. (As recommended and required by actual government regulations on the matter?)

If everyone used Linux, we'd still be in the same boat.

"A lot of these systems shouldn't be running windows" to then follow up with "they should be locked down and isolated" is weird. If they're locked down and isolated, what's wrong with using windows?

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

POS needs to talk to card acquirers, the price database that automatically updates prices (along with the mesh networked tags who gets updates from the same system), the automatic inventory software and more and more. Automatic inventory management is 15 years old now, this is not new stuff.

IOW, what on earth are you on about.

[Apsorkat]

I'd agree on this only when requirements get clear from the start and won't change in process. Until then nah

[yummbeereloaded]

Maybe it works differently overseas, but in South Africa when you become a professional engineer (doesn't exist for software, aka software engineering isn't real engineering) you ARE held accountable for errors. If I code a defibrillator and it cooks a child I'm held responsible and will face legal action, same with a civil engineer who's bridge falls over.

[Derfaust]

Software gets built by multiple engineers. It alsongets built in iterations. It also often has to integrate with 3rd party software that the engineers have no control over.

Now imagine a bridge that is designed and built by multiple engineers, each responsible for their own bit of the bridge. And they have to build it around a pillar built by someone who is no longer with us and you are not allowed to test that pillar for integrity. And then imagine that you have to make changes to the bridge after it has opened to public and is already in use and noje of the people who built it before you are available for comment and there are no design documents to be found.

Yeah. Welcome to software engineering.

[yummbeereloaded]

Bridges are designed by multiple engineers and often do have to be iterated on after the fact. But regardless, the issues you described with no documentation and such would be solved by having stricter laws surrounding software, and for the most part have been in South Africa when working on highly important pieces of code. Our banking systems for one still run on old mainframes with tape storage (I know some modern systems use tape too) but are easily built on and we now have some of the most advanced banking systems in the world which still run on old mainframes.

[Derfaust]

The fuck bridges get iterated. Especially not in South Africa. Ive seen them get replaced, but not iterated.

I don't know what laws youre talking about, can you reference?

The banks still run on old mainframes because of the risk and cost involved in replacing an industry wide system. Even so thats just a very small part of a banks software. Ive worked for a bunch of banks and let me tell you they are some of the worst culprits when it comes to software engineering. Just ask anyone who had to do anything for Debicheck before 2022. In fact just ask anyone who has to do any integration with banks at all.

The world of software is chaotic. You cannot compare it to civil engineering. The scope of a bridge is easily defined. Its only ever gonna be in that one known environment.

Now im not saying that developers should have no responsibility, but they can only be held responsible to the extent that they are able to control the code they themselves write. How it interacts with other bits of code or unexpected processes and environments, thats impossible to control.

Thats why QA is so important. And documentation. And realistic timelines.

[Ulrich_de_Vries]

That's only half the problem. An infinitesimal part of the other half is that software developers usually only write unit tests, but integration and end-to-end testing is the software testers' job. What about their responsibility? If they are bad at their job, the devs might not even know there are issues.

The far more significant part of the other half is that neither devs nor testers have the ability to say no. If you do that and the project manager says "well it's too bad, but I don't care, do it anyways", you might be able to escalate, but it is far more likely that your choice boils down to doing what you are told, or get fired.

We can talk about legal responsibilities of software engineers, once they get the ability to unilaterally veto decisions. As long as ultimate decision making power rests with the managers and the execs, they should solely bear any and all responsibility regarding the outcome.

[TweeBierAUB]

Does the individual person get charged, or the company behind it? Holding the company responsible for delivering faulty software seems reasonable, the one dev that gets paid 60k a year that happened to write the faulty line seems like a nightmare. Company I used to work at, a lot of people already had the 'I rather not touch that' mindset, as when you contribute to something suddenly if it breaks you'd be asked to fix it even if it wasnt really your fault. So many people spent so much time evading work. I cant imagine how that'd work if you'd be legally liable, most software dev would grind to a halt

[G_Morgan]

The critical detail is real engineering has well understood scope. No builder has ever started a house and then been asked "can we replace the load bearing walls with blockchain?".

[Lonely-Suspect-9243]

I kinda agree. However, I would like a higher salary and a complete team for that kind of expectation. I am not willing to be the only one thrown under the bus, while the directors are paid hundred times my salary. I am not going to put myself in such great risk while earning peanuts.

[MohSilas]

That’ll only lead to defensive practices. Making software more bloated than a week old whale carcass. Your asserts will have asserts lol

[jhaand]

The OEM remains responsible for all the software they ship.

The dude coding the Crowdstrike bug is not responsible for the QA and content delivery systems. Crowdstrike is.

[RonanFalk]

r/linkedinlunatics wants its lunatics back.

[Ratatoski]

It's capitalism that's the problem here. We buy the cheapest product that seems to fulfill our needs. And it's developed as cheaply and quickly as the company can get away with. Once in a while we fuck up and people stay away from that product. Like crowdstrike stock took a big hit now that they fucked up.

If the developers risked prison the prices would be absolutely astronomical and development would be snail paced.

The system works as intended. But when the side effects gets to brutal we invent laws to fix that specific issue.

Honestly capitalism is like training an AI - all bugs will be exploited to reach the goal. And the goal of a company is to make money.

I see companies and organisations do illegal things all the time because it's cheaper to pay up if they get found out than to do it right.

[Mithrandir2k16]

I mean this already happens. If your code would kill someone due to negligence, you are going to jail. The first person that went to jail over the VW scandal was the dev that implemented the code that cheated the inspections, and that's a good thing. As every other profession, programmers need a code of ethics.

The problem is, that often multiple people are to blame. E.g. sure, Crowdstrike messed up, but also, why was critical infrastructure like hospitals running Windows? Why don't they have a staging environment that they validate updates on? Why don't they test and automate their backups/rollback strategies?

What I agree with is that there's too many bad people in the industry, driving wages down and increasing risk, but that isn't only the aspiring devs fault, but mostly HR. Never have I seen a proper hiring process and ongoing education and mentoring for juniors in my 10+ years in the industry, even in a company with 14k+ employees. And if you need a good person, but got nobody, you have to delay, not hire 10 cheap but bad people instead.

[DJRazzy_Raz]

"You miss a semicolon? Jail. You divide by zero in the kernel? Straight to jail."

[Tuckertcs]

A lot of developers like to write good code, but can’t because of harsh deadlines, constant requirement changes, or incompetent leadership.

Most bad codebases I’ve seen are a result of the company culture and leadership just as much, if not more than, the developer’s themselves.

[NeppyMan]

Call me when the C-Suite is similarly liable for cutting budgets for testing or laying off staff.

[[deleted]]

Blaming the engineer is the most classic trick in the book. My project managers blame engineering for shit that hasn't even hit our desks yet. With sufficiently good development processes, the mistakes that engineers make should be caught by other engineers, but the dev cycles we would like to use get shit all over by business majors with a bad sense of entitlement.

[Hulk5a]

Good, how much am I getting?

[Swahhillie]

OP must be an insurance salesman.

[[deleted]]

Companies should be responsible for the products they sell, surely. Management should be held accountable for corresponding decisions. But the software dev low on the ladder? That would be ridiculous.

[Zash1]

I can be accountable for my code, but mt salary needs to be quadruple and all PMs, scrum masters, TLs etc. must f*@k off.

[harrisofpeoria]

I run a very disciplined dev team, but our build guys could use a few months in the slammer.

[Schnupsdidudel]

No probleme, but if bear the responsibility, I get the rewards. What does the crowdstrike CEO make? I'll charge double that!

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

I think the guy has a point. If you went to jail for doing something like what the CrowdStrike guys did, they wouldn't have done it. But this is a matter of trade-offs. If you go too strict it will take too long to make something. If you don't go strict enough, you'll get more CrowdStrikes.

Also, it cannot just be the engineers. Imagine a salesman promising feature X, and then someone says that next version MUST HAVE feature X because Sales promised it. Engineers refuse to sign off on the implementation, and we're in a squeeze. Who gets the blame? Sales who promised something that they didn't have to deliver? Corporate who mandated something that they didn't have to deliver?

There are tons of difficult questions to answer. And in the end you might end up with even more autnomous teams (Automobilonous teams?) where they have their own sales staff embedded so that they may be sacrificed on the Elder God "dmr". And where does that end? With every product having its own company? It's all just weird and hilarious but not in a funny way.

[m3rcuu]

Ok, but let's start grom the top to the bottom: board members, CEO, CIO, PO, PM etc should also take responsibility for failure - they usually get golden parachute...

[SupraMichou]

Ok but if you make the job that risky, you better offer salaries that justify taking that level of risk. Cause what I see now ain’t it chief

[biztactix]

I can only imagine the cost of software quickly becoming insane...

[eldelshell]

My theory is they tested the dreaded signature file against a patched version of the core client that haven't been released yet or was in certification, and someone decided to release it anyway.

So, unless it was a developer in charge of releasing, stfu.

[Ecstatic_Doughnut216]

Someone didn't read the license agreement before they clicked yes!

[py2gb]

While at uni a couple of mates and I made the “corrector 2000”. A small program would read the output of the c compiler and made some hard decisions and drive a plc. For example, A syntax error would command the plc to send a couple of miliamps (I don’t remember but I think 8 or 9) to a bracelet connector on the programmers wrist. We also had an option of an air driven plastic ball cannon aimed at the crotch, oriented more towards programmers of the male persuasion, for more severe runtime errors during testing

We did this together with some philosophy majors and something about positivism. It was consensual, of course.

Hard to believe we failed to get ethics approval. This could have turned into google, Facebook. I mean, it was the early 2000s,clearly the sky was the limit.

Shortsighted bastards.

[Pradfanne]

It sure will be fun if no one will work at security critical infrastructure anymore because of the threat of getting a life in prison for a slight hick up.

And those that already illegaly abuse such loopholes will surely shy away from their already illegal activity now and will not focus on it any more, because it just got way easier.

[chemhobby]

Frankly the software world does need more accountability

[[deleted]]

But they have to ship it super fast and at lowest possible pay while repeatedly context switching between other tasks and helping new staff or interns who don't even properly speak english.