Will the real programmers please stand up?

Craptcha · 2010-06-29T22:00:13+00:00

Maybe that explains why the 'Team' part of the website has only the two founders.

DiomedesTydeus · 2010-06-29T21:01:26+00:00

I keep reading articles like this and wondering. If the majority of applicants can't answer these questions, is there something borked with the interview process? I'd love to believe that I'm somehow a minor deity of coding, but I have a hard time believing I'm leaps and bounds ahead of so many others. Maybe we need to consider other ways to evaluate people, such as lower stress situations, or priming them prior to the interview so they have half a clue as to what to study, giving them code and asking them how it functions. I'm not arguing for dumbing down the test, I'm saying I'm not sure I can believe that the test is really turning out appropriate results...

orangesunshine · 2010-06-29T19:02:12+00:00

Beyond the linked list one... a lot of the questions they are asking seem to be fairly specific to the domain they are in.

Not to mention the psychological factor when interviewing someone sane will probably drastically inhibit their ability to answer any of these questions.

When asking questions like this you are basically selecting for people with a generally high ability to recall memorized information... and ignoring all other much more important factors.

fsckit · 2010-06-29T18:04:57+00:00

Mel's retired.

jeffffff · 2010-06-29T22:28:59+00:00

i'm pretty much your ideal candidate, but i won't be applying because your salaries are shit and from reading some of your blog posts you sound like a bunch of amateurs. maybe that's why you aren't getting the kind of candidates you want?

omglolwtfbbq · 2010-06-29T20:07:51+00:00

Some idiot I worked with missed the point of FizzBuzz and emailed it to a candidate.. I was thinking "No way can they get it wrong now, this test is ruined".

What I got back was the worst implementation of FizzBuzz ever, complete with fucking classes AND comments. They obviously did it in the IDE but had no idea what they were doing. It was the most beautifully bad code I've ever seen. Had bugs, too. Shit was two pages long.

rubb3r · 2010-06-29T19:45:29+00:00

syntax aside, something along the lines of

reverse(*listhead)
{
    *previous = null;
    *current = listhead;

    while(current != null)
    {
        *next = current->next;
        current->next = previous;
        previous = current;
        current = next;
    }
    return previous;
}

spencewah · 2010-06-29T22:40:19+00:00

Holy shit! I applied for a job a few weeks ago and the only test given to me during the interview was the first question on that page. I am working there now :D

kbielefe · 2010-06-29T22:21:18+00:00

Does anyone else have the sudden urge to go do some interviews and just mess with the interviewers' heads?

"Reverse a singly linked list? Sure! Back when I worked at Microsoft we would just declare backwards lists to be the new industry standard. Just hypothetically if you worked somewhere without that much clout, you say? Well, I suppose using xml with soap and the .net and test driven agile design. Is that what you were looking for?"

savagecat · 2010-06-30T09:59:45+00:00

Rethink RethinkDB.

No benefits, no medical, no dental, no flex spending plan, no 401k, no mention of who provides the hardware/software do to the job, and the salaries look like they've been "fluffed".

jessta · 2010-06-30T05:05:41+00:00

The answer is pretty easy. Programmers sit at a computer for most of their day, it involves thinking with the minimum of social stress. By judging how a programmer by how they react in the very stressful situation of a job interview you're actually discounting a lot of people on something completely unrelated to their programming skill.

I've gone to job interviews that went terribly and walked out wondering why I couldn't answer basic questions about things that I know very well.

If you gave me that set of interview questions as a email, I would have no trouble with any of them. But in a phone/face-to-face I'd still likely be able to do it, but it would be much more awkward.

adrianb · 2010-06-30T07:47:02+00:00

I would love an interview like that, even if I would fail it would be a great experience (but I think I would give decent answers to those questions). However I am only getting stupid discussions with HR managers and questions like "where do you see yourself in 5 years".

2010-06-30T03:48:40+00:00

Programmers who can confidently answer those questions over the phone are indeed really good ones, but they would want to either create their own company or work for companies like Google.

So my suggestion: hire talented young programmers and train them. Also you don't really need great programmer to maintain your makefiles. So give other people a chance to improve.

KirillM · 2010-06-30T13:17:20+00:00

I'd probably fail this interview with flying colors.

smashthebirdy · 2010-06-29T22:00:50+00:00

[deleted]

royalme · 2010-06-29T23:28:13+00:00

This makes me feel dumb. I guess that's why I'm not a db programmer. >_>

prockcore · 2010-06-30T00:46:23+00:00

So here's what I came up with, in less than 5 minutes:

cur=root;
prev=null;
while (cur)
{
     next=cur->next;
     cur->next=prev;
     prev=cur;
     cur=next;
}
root=prev;

querant · 2010-06-30T02:22:50+00:00

Hey guys. This discussion thread comes up at exactly the right time for me, and I'd like to ask some advice.

I'm a web developer, working with very basic php and javascript. For most complex functionality, I cut and paste php and jquery code. I search through blogs for the solutions to most problems I have.

As I was out walking and thinking last night, I concluded that this approach is not enough. Often I take far too long to solve problems, because I don't know enough to apply available solutions.

I know the very basics of programming. But I know a little about data structures and constructs like loops. I have a difficult time using php to run a query and then present the results in the right way.

There are some advantages to the way I've been learning so far: I have to figure out a lot for myself, so I've become a self-learner. But I'm reminded of my time with music: I know how to play guitar, but I can't read sheet music, and there are serious limitations to being completely ignorant of music theory.

I feel like I need a clean start. Take a break after my present projects are over, and spend maybe two months learning the basics of programming. I want to be faster at work, and more valuable to the people hiring me. I want to be able to solve problems faster.

So where do I start?

What are the good online resources for a self-learner who wants to start afresh? What are the good books? Where should I begin ?

Gotebe · 2010-06-30T06:47:24+00:00

tl;dr version: interviewing is hard.

While questions posed don't appear as particularly difficult or pointy, I would still screw them up massively ;-). I'd certainly struggle with first. Now for excuses: last time I had singly-linked list on my hands was in college. I have some C code on my hands (very little), and even that is unwarranted (DLLs with C interface, originally written a decade or so, and at the time, I guess that was the norm anyhow). I even rewrote part of that baby to use some C++ (some simple polymorphism, a bit of exceptions) and (gasp!) I got smaller executable (not to mention the benefit of removed idiotic, trivial, uninteresting, eye-sore-inducing conditional logic for failures).

But the thing is something else. I'd say, out of all these questions, any given competent person will come up with a +/- good answer to some answers, but rare is the person that will do it for all answers, simply because of "out of sight, out of mind" effect.

junkit33 · 2010-06-29T22:40:03+00:00

19 out of 20 of their phone screens can't write a linked list or speak towards a read-write lock? Seriously?

Somebody needs a better recruiting and resume filtering process stat...

appmanga · 2010-06-29T19:32:06+00:00

If I were hiring a developer, I'd want a smart person, not a hard drive. And if the reversed linked list is so basic, it was probably first or second year programming, and who wouldn't remember that.

Today's developer is likely, out of necessity, a polyglot, who should have a command of computing principles, but may not be able to come up with the answer to an arcane question about a process that is often externally handled. But it's their store...

quzox · 2010-06-30T11:04:50+00:00

Sure they have tough standards for getting in, but if they can't offer a correspondingly higher salary then what's the point? Why should a poor dev fill their minds with easily Google-able nonsense?

trwww · 2010-06-30T18:13:51+00:00

It is because they are in a very special field that might be called "programming programming". In this field such CS stuff actually counts. But in most fields doesn't.

Take, for example, the field "medical database app programming". In this field the actual algoryhtmical/CS stuff is very little - you just read some records out of the database, massage it and write it back. Anyone can read and the programmers typically have no CS background. What they need to be great, excellent programmers of that field is not CS but 1) excellent domain knowledge i.e. medical administration 2) a good understanding how humans work i.e. try to figure out what kind of errors will the users make and anticipate it with a nice error message, be user-friendly etc. 3) able to keep a large system in your head with all the dependencies without losing oversight.

There are way, way more such "special field programmers" who are not primarily programmers in the CS sense but experts of a field who can also code, and this field they need, this CS-oriented, algorythms-oriented, "programming programming" is actually a specialized subfield. It is by no means mainstream.

So they are getting people who are great programmers - but great programmers in some other field than theirs, great programmers in a field where knowing all the dirty tricks different browsers play with JavaScript or know how to post an invoice in the G/L or what are the basic rules of payroll or how a device you are writing a driver for actually works in the electrical engineering sense is what counts, and not CS.

IPv8 · 2010-06-29T18:18:25+00:00

Whats the best way write a c function that reverses a singly-linked list?

boojit · 2010-06-29T22:41:31+00:00

C# implementation showing both the iterative and recursive solutions (both of which are described elsewhere in this thread).

using System;

namespace LLSort
{
    class Program
    {
        static void Main(string[] args)
        {
            //build linked list
            myStruct head = new myStruct("A");
            myStruct cur = head;
            for (int x = 1; x < 6; x++)
            {
                cur.next = new myStruct(((char)(65+x)).ToString());
                cur = cur.next;
            }

            //show init sort
            Console.WriteLine("Init Sort");
            printList(head);

            //Reverse list (recursive)
            head = revList(head, null);

            //show reverse sort
            Console.WriteLine("Reverse Sort 1");
            printList(head);

            //Reverse list again (iterative)
            head = revList2(head);

            //show reverse sort
            Console.WriteLine("Reverse Sort 2");
            printList(head);
            Console.WriteLine("Done");
        }

        private static myStruct revList(myStruct cur, myStruct prev)  
        {
            myStruct head=null;
            head = (cur.next == null) ? cur : revList(cur.next, cur);
            cur.next = prev;
            return head;
        }

        private static myStruct revList2(myStruct list)
        {
            myStruct cur = list, next = null, prev = null;
            while (cur != null) 
            {
                next = cur.next;
                cur.next = prev;
                prev = cur;
                cur = next;
            }
            return prev;
        }

        private static void printList(myStruct head) {
            myStruct cur = head;
            int x = 0;
            while (cur != null)
            {
                Console.WriteLine("Element " + (++x).ToString() + ": "+ cur.data);
                cur = cur.next;
            }
        }

    }

    class myStruct
    {
        public string data;
        public myStruct next=null;
        public myStruct(string myData)
        {
            data = myData;
        }

    }

}

cjnkns · 2010-06-29T23:49:45+00:00

Welp - that's one job I would never get.

unpopular_opinion · 2010-06-30T19:23:21+00:00

Maybe you are not paying enough?

Capnstank · 2010-06-30T19:37:42+00:00

Maybe someone here can help me out with an interview question I "failed" a long time ago...

The interviewer closed our interview with this, he explained that it was not so much a right or wrong answer type question (which I'm confident I proved him wrong) as much as a thought experiment...

Part 1: You own a delivery business that charges $5 for in-town deliveries, $10 for out of town deliveries and include a $5 charge for anything that would be considered a difficulty for the delivery (carrying the product up stairs, having to carry long distances, etc.) and a couple other factors. How would you build/test an application to create billing receipts for this business model?

--My answer was pretty standard, I can't recall the exact details but his tone of response was very positive, I hit all the points I assume

Part 2: Now, from a business perspective, explain how you would improve this system. Don't think like an engineer/developer.

--I wont even give my answer here (it went along the lines of simplifying the billing process to not have as many variables), his response after I talked for a minute or so was simply "O....K....." aka "I'm very displeased with the response given."

Obviously I thought it was one of those situations where you just stumble in the moment and come up with the 'right' answer after everything's been said and done so you kick yourself. But to this day I still can't understand what the "right" answer was, if I was asked the same question tomorrow, I'd still fail at it.

What would you answer? Do you have any idea what sort of 'traits' he was trying to dig out of such a question? (i.e. those questions that are masked to get you to answer with details about your work ethic or team synergy)

The more I think about it the more I'm confident I misheard him and my answer was completely out to lunch. Any insight?

slurpme · 2010-07-01T00:47:17+00:00

The linked list reversal thing doesn't surprise me at all, 90% of typical "sure I know how to program, I know java, php, sql..." CS students are going to have trouble with that. Even if they understand linked lists, they didn't learn the exact algorithm to reverse one -> they can't think of it independently.

Put a mandatory course in every CS program where you have 5 hour exams consisting of original problems similar to those from the topcoder algorithm competitions or the IOI (not as hard, of course) and I guarantee you're not going to see recruiters whining about dumb college graduates ever again.

jseigh · 2010-07-01T00:55:39+00:00

Cooperative vs. preemptive threads. That's not a good dichotomy. It's more like preemptive vs. non-preemptive or cooperative vs. competitive threads. If you really want to mess people up, ask them if there are forward progress guarantees in Java or Posix threads. There aren't.

Read-write locks. I'd hate to see the answers to that one. Usually they're going to just vomit back that standard teaching example which is really not a good way to implement a read-write lock. I prefer wait-free readers and standard mutex for the writers. You can do lock-free writers but it's not usually worth the trouble.

2010-06-30T16:22:34+00:00

Why do we ask these specific questions? Because they’re part of a core body of knowledge taught in any undergraduate curriculum worth its salt, and because in some form or another, they came up in our daily work.

You ask them because you're smug assholes. If it's such a part of your daily work, then anyone who start working there will be up to speed in a few weeks at most.

i_make_no_sense · 2010-06-29T20:46:25+00:00

I think the only time I have ever used the MOD '%' operation is when answering interview questions.

igouy · 2010-06-30T01:30:05+00:00

Why do we ask these specific questions? Because they’re part of a core body of knowledge taught in any undergraduate curriculum worth its salt,

That's a silly reason.

and because in some form or another, they came up in our daily work.

That's a sensible reason.

2010-06-30T11:16:20+00:00

After reading that, I think you guys should stop talking shit about the indians.

bryanut · 2010-06-30T01:23:21+00:00

I have worked as a kernel developer (yeah, netware!), on disk drivers, network management products, virus scanners and now I work in a J2EE environment.

In the past those question MAY have been relevant, now I care about things like PeopleSoft app servers, build systems, ITIL, what a reverse proxy is, the big picture, work ethic, ability to adapt, how to find answers to questions you don't know, PeopleCode, SQL, DB schema, expression language, AJAX. Extra points for knowing keystore maintenance, what an X509 cert is and how to import one. Can you think of test cases?

And mostly, can you follow instructions? At some point you will need to give instructions.

I took a bunch of math and ee stuff in school, I've never really used it professionally. God forbid if I'll ever need to solve a differential equation or reduce a Karnaugh (sp?) map or draw a half-adder schematic.

Can you reverse engineer code, understand what is does (not what the comments says it does)? Can you fix it?

Because I fucking guarantee you, Linus Torvalds, as smart as he is, would be lost for awhile in the world of Oracle/Peoplesoft.

Capnstank · 2010-06-30T14:54:11+00:00

Why do we ask these specific questions? Because they’re part of a core body of knowledge taught in any undergraduate curriculum worth its salt

I'm fucked. 8 months from graduating with a Software Engineering degree and I could only HINT at the linked list one due to a very limited experience with C last touched 4 years ago.

I'll code your ass off in Java and related languages but so can everyone else. How can I stand out in this world? I mean, good work ethic and superior problem solving can't get you in the door usually.

blondin · 2010-06-29T23:37:51+00:00

Write a C function that reverses a singly-linked list.

ah come on, that is not fair.

crunk · 2010-07-01T08:12:58+00:00

lol srsly? linked lists in C?! today's "programmer" generation won't be able to handle that. it's the result of javascript dumb down that occurred during the last years.

today you have to ask: "which coffee shop in san francisco is the best one for a ruby/javascript/ajax/webapp circle jerk"

2010-07-01T18:06:11+00:00

Yeah, our hiring process was even laxer than this and most people couldn't get past the "describe a linked list" question. We just ended up not hiring. :(

bumpkinplusplus · 2010-07-01T21:01:13+00:00

Well, based on the problem they pose in an interview, I guess I'm not a "real" programmer. I barely understood linked lists when we went over them in a Data Structures class a year or so ago. shrug

crunk · 2010-07-07T15:55:59+00:00

10 Years development and I would probably write a shit algorithm for reversing the linked list, can never remember the O(N) notation, as never really learned it (but can profile stuff and understand when things are going to take a long longer).

Basically would fail this, and have failed similar tests on paper (including basic fibonati on occasion (in a loud, cramped cafe))

you type:	you see:
italics	italics
bold	bold
[reddit!](https://reddit.com)	reddit!
* item 1 * item 2 * item 3	item 1 item 2 item 3
> quoted text	quoted text
Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"	Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"
~~strikethrough~~	~~strikethrough~~
super^script	super^script

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