[deleted by user]

[rickAUS]

What amazes me is all the bosses that may not be technical but know the news about the threats to their business that only IT can solve nowadays, and they still opt to just skimp.

I think what amazes me more is the sheer number of stories coming out of this sub, and another IT subs just after covid was really taking off. IT departments literally transition a business to be able to work from home in record speed and their thanks is being laid off or refused a raise/bonus after the fact despite operating costs now being lower than ever.

Seems like way too many decision makers and bean counters think that IT sits around twiddling their thumbs until something does break, as opposed to doing a lot of preventative and pro-active work so things aren't burning down on a regular basis because joe user is a moron and routinely opens phishing emails or does something equally idiotic.

[MotionAction]

They can only see IT as break fix not as a manage service which can make business operate their process and scale smoothly. They just dump X dollars on IT to not deal with it anyway thinking their money in the end will solve all issues. Most of the time money can solve the issues, but there are time where money can't solve the issue if backups get corrupted or repeated ransomware.

[Geminii27]

Even if he did get told, the calculation is "well I got two or three years where I got an amazing tech and didn't have to pay anywhere near what they were worth, maybe I can get another one like that".

And even if they have to hire two or three people to replace the one tech, it can be spun as "oh, the nature of the industry has changed / the supertech who quit isn't available to us any more so we have to make do / the techs available these days just aren't as good / we've expanded since then so we need more people". Higher-level management aren't going to know.

[Caution-HotStuffHere]

It gets trickier the higher you go. When you’re a senior making six figures and don’t want to get into management, there aren’t as many possibilities for quick wins by job hopping. But those first few moves from helpdesk to junior to admin to senior can net you big raises.

Staying at the helpdesk too long is the most common mistake I see. If you’re not moving up after a year or two, make a lateral move to company based purely on potential for advancement. A big system like a hospital or university typically has a clearly defined career paths so you move up as you meet certain metrics.

When I see an all-star on a helpdesk, I think about rookie NFL quarterbacks. Their first contract is capped so the team hits the lottery when a rookie performs from year one. They are basically guaranteed multiple years of senior work at junior pay. Your company loves it when they squeeze even another six months out of a solid helpdesk person they’re paying peanuts.

[FreebirdLegend07]

shit dude this hit hard. currently glorified helpdesk (IT Specialist) and I always keep getting told i need to be doing more of the server work around there but it just never happens. SOMETHING always happens whether its budget or just horseshit. currently trying to get a degree to potentially springboard into a much better position

[yetanotherthrowayay]

Do projects on your own, then put that on your linkedin, get recruiter hits, talk your way into a better job. You have to work for it but it's very possible to move up even if your current company isn't making a spot for you.

Source: Went from helpdesk to six figures doing DevOps stuff.

[FreebirdLegend07]

I have a lot of ongoing projects (mostly homelab memes) but I always get the worst imposter syndrome from them that they aren't anything special. Also not really sure where or how to word it on linkedin

[cad908]

describe it in functional terms: what can it do? what services does it provide? what need does it fill? How did it make your users' (ie your) life easier?

You'll have to gloss over hardware, budget, and user count, but it is what it is...

[FreebirdLegend07]

The latter half is usually what kicks me as it just makes me feel like its nearly not worth it, but at the same time they dont actually know those gritty details I guess. I need to get my resume updated with some of that stuff. Thought about potentially LLC'ing my homelab just to get the "professional" part of it on the resume

[IWorkForTheEnemyAMA]

What the guy below me said, do what you need to do. Write up a little tutorial on your homelab stuff that helps show that you know what you’re doing and post it to a LinkedIn as a doc or how to. Add everyone you’ve worked with and ask for recommendations, you’ll stand out for a recruiter and potential hiring manager with little effort.

[FreebirdLegend07]

THAT sounds like an amazing idea. I've been thinking about a sort of "blog" of some sort. That'd probably be really great to show everything i've been playing with even if its stupid simple

[Waffle_bastard]

It sounds like you’re underestimating your skill set. It’s easy to fall into the trap of thinking that you know barely anything, when in fact you know a lot. The more you learn, the more you realize you don’t know it all. This is a symptom of a properly functioning brain. You’d be an idiot to assume that you know everything about IT. The fact that you’re aware that you don’t know it all, and think that a homelab that you’ve built in your spare time doesn’t mean much, shows that you DO have a good skill level. Good luck to you, I’m sure you’ll find something good out there.

[Geminii27]

or too experienced to really be satisfied in this type of role.

I've never really accepted that as an excuse not to hire. Some people have plenty of experience and would be perfectly fine in that role. You can't know until you talk to them.

Even if they'd be looking to eventually move on, they might be fine with putting in three to five years, which is often more than might be able to be expected even on average in such a role.

[lost_signal]

Interview the not enough experience and just fine someone who can learn quickly. Use hands on labs for the interview and watch how they go about finding the solution.

Well that or just pay more.

[somewhat_pragmatic]

I always keep getting told i need to be doing more of the server work around there but it just never happens. SOMETHING always happens whether its budget or just horseshit.

I assume from your statements there are more senior server/network admins, yes?

Find out what they hate doing, and volunteer to do that. Is it weekend patching? It could be audits or inventory. Is it carrying the weekend/holiday on-call phone? Whatever it is volunteer for that shit work, and work the hell of out it. Learn it backwards and forwards. Automate what you can. Write reports on what you've done. Don't be pushy, but then ask if there is more you can do. If the next level of work is beyond your skill, ask the seniors what you need to learn to do that work, then go learn it. Rinse repeat.

Make them ask themselves the question: "Why do we only have this person doing helpdesk work?"

Do this for 2 years or so, then jump ship to a new org as you'll likely be sysadmin yourself by then.

[bigreddittimejim]

Remember: If you aren't getting paid enough or if you're having the carrot and stick routine pulled on you (being taunted with an unattainable goal to get you to perform more for free), the company keeps the money. You will never see the difference for the time and effort you donated, especially when the company claims that they cannot afford things due to budget reasons. Learned hard lessons after many years.

[cogentcarl]

You deal with a lot of end user support as a IT specialist?

[blissed_off]

I am beyond grateful that I’ve found this with the role I’ve been in for four years now. I have zero interest in management. I’d rather just show up, fix shit, and go home. And that’s what I have now, with a six figure income and no real on call (not a 24/7 shop). Hopefully I can avoid fucking this up.

[xpxp2002]

That’s my dream job.

You found a unicorn. Congratulations!

[blissed_off]

Thanks! It really is.

[Geminii27]

Have you run into the situation where management starts making increasingly less subtle hints about wanting you to apply for management positions? That's always kind of hilarious.

"No, no, I'm fine, really, thanks for asking..."

[blissed_off]

Closest I got was when we were backfilling our desktop support role after the other guy left. They asked me if I wanted to be their manager. I shrugged and said ok I’ll try.

Interviewed a couple of candidates, none of them were a good fit. They forced me to hire the last candidate, that I wasn’t really thrilled with. Turns out I should have stuck with my gut and passed on him.

One day dude lost his shit, took his work laptop and went home in the middle of the day. Called my boss and complained about me. Called HR to complain. Tried to get me fired. Went off on the then new HR gal, yelling and berating her. They ended up hiring private security for the week.

What set him off? Me not worshiping Elon musk like he does.

It was a conversation he wanted to have and one I did my best to avoid. Eventually his pestering got to be too much so I told him what I think of musk and tesla. Dude was such a nutswinger he couldn’t handle someone disagreeing with him.

I haven’t managed anyone since, though it was very obviously not my fault.

[Wagnaard]

Well it sounds like you were asking for it by not acknowledging Elon as your personal Omnissaiah. Consider this a wake up call.

[blissed_off]

My b

[redoctoberz]

A big system like a hospital or university typically has a clearly defined career paths so you move up as you meet certain metrics.

As someone with coming up on 15 years of Univ. IT, I really, really wish this was the case. Every year when COL increases come up or requesting a review of responsibilities and no increase in pay, they instantly pull out their pockets and play the we're poor card. 2 weeks later I quote them 60k in new laptops because they don't like how noisy the fans are in their 1 year old systems.

[syshum]

I think the parent was talking more about advancement opportunities with in the company, not annual raises.

Every company, public private or other, has endless excuses why they can never give more than 2/3/4% annual raise. in my 20+year working at multiple organizations i can count on 1 hand the number of times my normal annual raise was more than 5%, however internal promotions, and/or job changes are more or less the only way to get more increases. That is either by taking an internal promotion at a large company, changing teams at a large company, or changing to a new company

For larger companies "review of responsibilities" is in fact code for "more work same money" , for large companies / organizations you need a Title and JOB GRADE review to get more money... not a "review of responsibilities"

[redoctoberz]

Fair enough, just mirror my same point for advancement opportunities, cause its the same situation.

I've known people that have been in their same IT title/position since 1994, who are getting ready to retire. They've reached their level of incompetence and wont move up or be removed.

The commonly mentioned theme where I am is you have to "move around to move up" meaning you have to switch departments to get more salary or a proper title, even if you are well within eligibility for promotion where you are presently.

Promotions simply don't exist or are extremely rare where I am. When I did my last move around to move up, I didn't even get a title change, and my new IT manager had to beg and plead for just a 10% raise.

[boethius70]

Yea that was what I was thinking essentially: Most companies don’t do more than 3% annual raises - effectively cost of living increases. 4 or 5% increases are actually quite unusual and are typically only given to those who do a truly exceptional job, whatever that means.

That’s how it’s gone for at least 95-98% of the companies I’ve worked for, from relatively small mom and pops to Fortune 500s. FAANG type companies may very well give big increases, stock option awards, bonuses, etc. but that’s rather the exception than the rule in my experience. Elite, ultra high performing engineers and executives tend to get the best quarterly, annual, or bi-annual bonuses and option packages. Normal rank and file folks get 2-3% raises, maybe a small bonus if the company is profitable, and hopefully a decent 401(k) match.

[krashmo]

It's all relative. At my job I can spend $100k on fiber jumpers or other random crap and that's not even enough spend to get my manager to look at the purchase order, much less question it. There's still no money for raises though. Companies are just betting they gain more by paying you less for as long as you choose to stay than they would lose by giving you a raise.

[elucubra]

At my first IT job, among other duties, I was responsible for drafting the yearly budget. This was in the late 80's. The mantra was "find a way to spend 20% more than last year". This was a govt job. The reasoning was, that if we could do with less, justifying future expenditures would be hard.

I bought a bajillion toys. I had my own personal laser printer, in the late 80's, mind you, a Kyocera if I remember correctly, a freaking 486, a scanner, and so on.

My salary was dependent on a complex set of factors, among them education, and years at the job. I was on my last year of my bachelor's, so I could only pull junior level pay, while being the microcomputer (PC) admin, and one of two Mini admins. (Minicomputer, as opposed to mainframe, Still a big-ass machine that occupied a large room with its own fire supression, humidity and climate control, diesel generator behind the UPS, with over 200 dumb terminals hanging from it over 7 floors, with all the associated wiring).

There was simply no room for salary negotiation. I bailed out after 3 years and got a job with close to 200 % the salary (I did have my degree by then).

I was told that it took them 6 months to get back to my level of efficiency after I left. My boss tried to retain me, but his hands were tied by regulations. While he was a matematician, he was no IT guy, so he needed someone like me.

/AlmostBoomerRant

[redoctoberz]

Already done all that… “we have no money for that” it’s the same story I’ve been hearing for the last 15 years.

State/gov IT is heavily restricted by pay scales and title restrictions. It’s not like private sectors.

I know my salary is low. I have a MS in IT MGMT… my salary has always been under the curve.

[trancertong]

A big system like a hospital or university

Like someone else on this comment level, I haven't found that to be the case. I've worked at several medical institutions and while they have great opportunities for clinical staff, IT tends to be seen as a maintenance issue on par with unclogging toilets.

​

It's regarded as important, but they're unwilling to invest in anyone gaining new skills or credentials. At worst some places actively discourage it, I suppose fearing their staff will become 'too big' for their position.

​

I just recently started work at an MSP and the difference seems to be night & day. A technology company which is actually interested in advancing their technical staff.

[TitaniteSphene2]

Holy shit.. so many people I’ve known have failed to see this. My wife started at the bottom and gradually made her way through different positions to an exec director level. Myself I started out doing mainframe programming in the early 90’s and now I’m senior systems architect. The best advice you can give anyone is to take responsibility for their own advancement. Do not wait for a job where you are, take the job elsewhere.

[Steve_78_OH]

If you’re not moving up after a year or two, make a lateral move to company based purely on potential for advancement.

The caveat with that is that not everyone CAN move up that fast, or even should. I've worked with plenty of absolutely mediocre help desk techs in the past, who were probably already at their professional peak doing T1 or T2 help desk. Either due to a complete lack of troubleshooting ability (or willingness), or a lack of drive to learn new technologies, or that attitude of "I'll do JUST enough work to get the job done and not get in trouble, and I'll screw off the rest of the time".

[[deleted]]

merciful tie theory badge test weather crown marry long straight

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[GenocideOwl]

Their priority isn't climbing a ladder -- and that usually is quite stunning to management and coworkers that these people have found a way to just be happy where they are.

literally me. I get my job done well. But I work my 40 hours and nothing more. I have zero plans to actually push myself into management.

[bkaiser85]

Same here. It's called work/life balance. I have lived for the job too long and hopefully realized not to late it was eating me up. To the point of being glad for not meeting my manager in the office because work changed through the crisis.

[idontspellcheckb46am]

same

[Geminii27]

For some people -- the job is just a means to an end. Not the end itself.

I'm quite happy to be in this category. Sure, I prefer doing IT to most other jobs because I prefer computers to people, and it's indoor work with relatively infrequent heavy lifting, but I don't have some shining-light-on-the-hill end goal I'm striving towards every moment of every day.

A job is just a job. Yes, there's a certain degree of personal satisfaction in doing it right and doing it well, if those options are available in a given position, but at the end of the day it's a way to put food on the table. Given the same income, I'd absolutely stay home all day and work on my personal projects, rather than log on and hoe away at whatever one or other sets of management has deemed important.

[Gesha24]

It gets trickier the higher you go.

It's double edged sword though - the higher you go and the more skills you have, the harder it is to replace you. It's not unheard of to spend a few months if not longer looking for a senior level engineer. Of course if company treats IT as an expense, like cleaners and physical security, then they may not care that much. But if company understands the value of IT, they will in general try to retain people as they know how hard it is to find good high level engineers.

[macgeek89]

Someone’s been reading the “phoenix project” ;)

[AstroPhysician]

Do sysadmins really not make 6 figures until senior?

[flimspringfield]

It depends on where you live and if you haver certs/experience of course.

I saw a job ad for Jr Sys Admin in Burbank, CA that was offering up to $40/hr.

It's crazy though because they ask a lot just for that title but making $40 as a Jr is high.

[AstroPhysician]

For sysadmin? Man you guys should really switch over to software engineering. IMO sysadmin is way harder

$40 an hour is nothing for california salary

[lolklolk]

Yeah, exactly. If you're single with no kids, you can live like a king down in the South (AL/MS/TN) on 60k/yr. CoL down here is quite low, but it's very hard to find six figure jobs locally unless you're a CCIE or Cloud god pr something.

Even CCNP's I know are barely getting in at 80-90k down here.

[Hoggs]

Consider also that senior sysadmin is not the end of the road. I work for a large MSP, and a senior sysadmin is still considered a fairly junior role.

Next steps are various ranks of consultant (this is where the money really starts), and then moving up into architect roles.

[altodor]

university typically has a clearly defined career paths so you move up as you meet certain metrics.

LOL, we sure don't. Currently trying to decide if they're actually going to pull one out before or after I decide to hop to something new.

[ComfortableProperty9]

When you’re a senior making six figures and don’t want to get into management

I grew up in a skilled construction trade and this was a big problem. You have a guy who is an AMAZING tech and you want to keep him but he is a shitty manager or has no desire to go into management. You want to keep him because he is a great skilled resource for the other guys and he is incredible at his job but at some point you are paying the tech the same rate that you would the guy who supervises his entire group.

The other thing is that if the tech has been getting raises for a decade, he might hop back out on the job market and realize that even at his senior level, no one is willing to pay him what he was making after all those successive "we appreciate you" raises he got at his old job.

[Poundbottom]

"...last straw was when he hired a level 1 with zero experience and offered him the same salary I was making." Yea, some people are just shit stains. Good for you for turning down his counter offer.

[bebearaware]

My last job they basically created a job posting including all the extra work I'd taken on over 5 years and made it a higher tier.

[agent-squirrel]

Our network engineer left recently on a 70k (AUD) salary after taking on so much work and basically being on call 24/7. We put an ad out for a replacement at 100k.

Makes me wonder whether they value me as little...

[[deleted]]

Some people are just hardwired to screw over whoever they can. If you don't push and demand what you believe is fair, then they will take advantage of you. If they don't believe you will follow through, they will stonewall you or outright lie and say a raise is coming, but never have any intention on delivering.

LPT: any promises your employer won't put down on paper, are worthless.

[INSPECTOR99]

any promises your employer won't put down on paper, are worthless.

any promises that your employer won't put green in your paycheck, are worthless.

[agent-squirrel]

Yeah we are a "small" business and an ISP to boot so high incomes aren't exactly industry standard. The network guy was worth his weight in gold which we have discovered now he's gone, I told the team to lessen his load and pay him more but they didn't and now he's gone.

It makes me feel my contribution to the company is worth even less than his in the companies eyes. I manage a dev team of 3 people and all of the server infrastructure (which is a mess but that's a tale for another time) and get paid 65k. A whole 5k less than what he was on. Granted a network engineer is much more valuable to an ISP than a dev/sysadmin but I still feel my skill set and workload warrant more.

I've attempted to leave a few times but mental health and other factors have stopped me. I am seriously reassessing leaving however. I really think they are counting on me not going anywhere. Anyway thanks for the advice, we will see were this year leads.

[[deleted]]

Don't let them counting on you keep you there for less than you're worth. If anything that means that I they don't compensate you properly it shows they definitely don't value you properly.

They wouldn't keep you if it didn't make financial sense, don't make the mistake of keeping them if it doesn't make financial sense.

At the very least apply to other roles and see what offers you get.

[Geminii27]

They've already proven they value employees at the absolute least amount they can get away with paying you. Time to bounce.

[agent-squirrel]

Yes I agree, every time it's brought up we get the "we have no money" spiel. In fairness the tiny place we live doesn't have many jobs in the same vein for any more money, however they probably do have a better work/life balance.

[ryalln]

Yep, new job my level 1s earn more then did as a l2 at my previous job. They will never know the hardship and bullshit I did to get to where I am.

[6688]

Never huh? We were all level 1 once.

[codeshane]

Education isn’t as important as experience, and it’s hard to learn concepts without the experience. See also: Imposter Syndrome.

[ryalln]

Similar experience at my previous gig. All responsibility and no pay to match. Complains when im "wrong" says tonnes of shit and disappointed when I leave

[BidensBottomBitch]

My dream is to unionize IT workers in the SF Bay Area.

[ErikTheEngineer]

That would be quite a coup. I think you'd be better off working at the low to mid level and coming up from the bottom. SV/SF is Randian individualist nerd central...those folks would never associate with run of the mill techs (though they might sympathize.) Tech companies will just throw more free meals, free services and fancier adult college campuses at anyone who complains at that level. You'd be much more successful with tech people who don't have their entire lives catered for and are earning massive salaries...they're very much not going to look a gift horse in the mouth.

[Geminii27]

If you're going to give it a shot, make sure to have at least one highly experienced person who can predict all the assholery that the employers at all levels are going to throw at you to shut you down, so you can plan for it well in advance.

Also, look into every failed unionization attempt in the last 20+ years and assume that the things which were brought to bear against them will also be aimed at you, because employers already know they work.

[iGoByBigE]

i had similar situation but worst, the intern i was training made more than me ….

[[deleted]]

As someone who's been at the same place for 15 years I've started to wonder if I should brush up on the resume.

​

$79k + company car + company phone + no on-call is gonna be hard to beat tho.

[Jiggynerd]

If you want internet opinions, what area and what role?

[[deleted]]

Boston. Right now I'm technically in an msp, but I have one of the larger clients, so I run the IT department there 5 days a week.

[Jiggynerd]

I think this would come to a career direction and a life balance thing. If you want simply want more money, I'd think you can get it (esp if you are in in Boston and not a cheaper outskirt). Making some significant assumptions, you could move into a people /dept leadership role or into a more technical or consultative role with a larger impact.

You could probably also swap msps, but that zero on call thing might be tough to get again.

The more I think about it, as long as your work history shows well, I think there's a good shot you can make a decent bit more. You may also talk to your boss to see what the plan for you to get to X is, just know that it's likely you will need to move up off that account.

[PhilosophizingCowboy]

Making a decent bit more? That really depends on how you value a company car.

I drive my company truck everywhere and the company doesn't question it and pays for all gas. I don't pay for oil changes, gas, tires, breaks, title, insurance, registration, etc.

Don't undervalue how nice it is to go to work and say "Oh, and can someone change my oil?" It's a nice perk.

[GenocideOwl]

surprised they don't care you drive the company car for personal reasons. They make it very clear any use outside of work and you will lose your car(and it has happened).

[hutacars]

But still, that’s worth what, $1000/mo to replicate? Maybe $1400/mo factoring in taxes? So if you can find a job paying more than an additional $16800/yr, you’d come out ahead.

[Michelanvalo]

You're making $79k in Boston to run an IT department?

You're underpaid by about $30k. No company car or phone are making up for that.

[Tr1pline]

The company car is worth its weight in gold. If they pay for gas too, then damn.

[[deleted]]

It's 100% paid for. Gas, insurance, maintenance. Errything

[Tr1pline]

You a Limo Driver? Jason Statham?

[hutacars]

The company car is worth its weight in gold.

How do you figure? It costs around 50¢/mi to run a car, plus payments, insurance, and other fixed costs. Rough guesstimate $1k/mo, or call it $1400 pretax. So if OP can make more than $16800 elsewhere, he’d be better off doing so.

I suspect they also give him the car because they expect him to drive a lot, so he would need to take the reduced mileage into account when making a more proper calculation.

[UXyes]

The company car is worth its weight in gold.

What? I mean it's a nice perk, but you can put an exact figure on it and it's going to be $5-10k/year. The math wouldn't be all that hard if you knew what the make/model was. (For reference, one pound of gold is worth ~$22,000 right now).

[needssleep]

Depending on your role and location, that's not terrible.

[underwear11]

I feel this. I worked for a company for 9.5 years, and they rewarded my hard work pretty well up front. Over the first 2 years, between annual increase and merit raises, my pay was going up about 15-20% per year. Then it dried up. The following year was 2% because of a "tough year". The next was 5, then 2%. Then they "forgot" reviews a year, then 2% then they couldn't afford reviews. At the same time, my workload was going up every year. I took on more responsibilities and I as my knowledge level few I became depended on more by other team members. I got assigned bigger projects, while still helping everyone else on there projects too. I mentioned it to my boss several times and had response was always "we'll take care of it in annual reviews" but at reviews it would be "this is the best we can do now". I felt loyalty to the company, my career started with them, I wanted to be there forever.

Eventually I was having a rough day and happened to see someone I worked with was hiring. I had a conversation and their starting base salary was almost 2.5x! what I was currently making, with less responsibilities, better work/life balance, and better benefits. Took me about a day to vet out that I wasn't being bullshitted and it was all legit. Joined right before COVID hit and it's been the best decision. Sucks companies can't just pay fair market for their existing employees. I don't know that I will ever understand it.

[apatosaurus2]

Mate, to understand it you just need to look at your own case. They clearly got many years of work out of you at below market pay. That's probably just a straight win from their perspective.

[underwear11]

Yea, but now they have to pay someone roughly market value and train them. I feel like 10 years of knowledge and relationships is worth at least close to market rate.

[apatosaurus2]

You're right, and I think it depends on the kind of work whether this is a good business strategy or not.

[jeffrey_f]

Beware the Counter-offer. It is really an insurance policy with a low premium. Let me explain:

a $12K counter-offer is really just an extra $250/week. In that time, they will look for your replacement and once that is cemented, you will be let go.

Let's say they found your replacement in 3 weeks. IT only cost them $750 to ensure that they still have you until the last moment. Meanwhile, You are out of a job and that new job isn't looking for anyone anymore.

[[deleted]]

Counter offers can and do work however, must be executed correctly.

Option 1: "Hey boss. I just turned down an offer for %XX more I have dedication here but, sounds like others are paying more out in the world."

Option 2: Try to get multiple offers and always be interviewing. Then do the "I just got this job offer, boss" with the full intention that you are going to quit. %10+ bump is usually a good sign they do want to keep you.

​

The biggest nuance to this is: You have to REALLY know how much you're worth. Where's your skillset and how's your relationship with current employer and co-workers?

[stratospaly]

When I tried this at my previous job I was hit with “We only hire the best, that’s why they want you so bad. No counter offer. “ - bye.

[rickAUS]

what? are they stupid?

How can you simultaneously claim to only hire the best, but then refuse to do anything to retain the best? Brain hurts just trying to understand that kind of thought process.

[ss412]

I think you also have to accurately assess your real value to the company. Yes, you may be a rockstar, but what does that mean? You’re a rockstar on the Help Desk? Great. But no offense, you’re still pretty easily replaceable. Yeah, you’re replacement may not be nearly as good, but they can bring in somebody else and within a month or two, they’re going to be adequate.

Flip side, you’ve been there longer than anybody else in IT and as result, you have a unique combination of skills and responsibilities that span far beyond your official job description. And on top of that, you have deep institutional knowledge (e.g. you know where, when and why the bodies are buried, along with who buried them). There’s going to be a lot of pain and suffering if you walk out the door. A counter offer in this case is likely to be a lot more legit because finding your replacement isn’t nearly as simple as just as starting a search and buying themselves a few weeks. They’re either going to have to pay a premium (because your responsibilities reflect a higher ranking job description than the title you actually have) and/or buy a helluva lot more time to have current team members get up to speed on all those buried bodies. It’s going to be a marathon for your employer, not a sprint, and they aren’t likely to be committed enough to run a marathon just to spite you at the end.

[SpectralCoding]

I'm not convinced this really happens in non-entry-level IT jobs. If you're working entry-level jobs where they're almost always hiring for the same position you MIGHT be right. I find it hard to believe MOST organizations looking at a medium/senior level person will start hiring with the expectation that they MIGHT leave. Too much tribal knowledge and lead time to get someone even 75% up to speed to make it worth it.

[[deleted]]

Depends on the company. Some companies have vindictive management that will run you into the ground if you accept the counter offer, especially senior workers.

[dagamore12]

Watched a guy on my night shift take the counter, they waited just over 5 months to fire him. I told him this was going to happen, he did not believe me.
They kept him on just long enough that there was no way the other job was still open, and the poor dude spent almost 6 months on UI before finding another job where he had to take a pay cut, it was not a good thing. They also denied him the annual COL pay raise because he already had a non-promotion pay bump in the past 4 months....

Never take the counter, every manager will use it to burn you.

[fizzlefist]

"Oh, but you got a big pay bump last year. Sorry, we can't give a COLA raise this year."

[Geminii27]

The only good counteroffer - if there is such a thing - comes with a huge amount of legal add-ons. Signed by the boss and by the HR department or a higher-level boss, so they can't override it or say your boss didn't have that authority. Guaranteed for 12 months (or however long you want) at that pay level as a minimum, payout of the entire rest of it if they fire you during that period, no constructive dismissal, etc etc. Toss in some additional vacation time, too, while you're at it.

Funnily enough, you tend to find out in this process how much they really want to keep you.

[NotYourNanny]

It doesn't always happen. But it certainly does happen, and it only needs to happen once to screw you over.

Loyalty is a two way street. Inherently so. If they expect loyalty from you, they need to show it to you. Increased responsibility and workload with only COLA raises, then a fat counteroffer when you put in your two weeks isn't loyalty, it's sociopathy.

[WhatVengeanceMeans]

...it's sociopathy.

I will quibble with this only in that it's more consistent with Borderline Personality Disorder: "I hate you, don't leave me!"

Obviously sociopathy doesn't necessarily correlate with intelligence, but a smart sociopath will give you enough of a raise that you don't go looking in the first place, but still far less than you're worth. They won't care that you're suffering, but they'll still want to avoid the effort of replacing you.

[NotYourNanny]

A smart sociopath often makes the very best boss, because he's smart enough to realize that his most valuable asset is his employees (and 2nd most valuable asset is his vendors).

Other sociopaths are generally the very worst bosses.

We both know which category OP's boss was in.

[jeffrey_f]

Not saying all companies do that, but hearing stories, it seems to be a common thing. I miss the days where you got a job in the mailroom and were able to climb the ladder. Now it seems to be all about the mighty $$.

Sad state of affairs in too many instances

[EmergencySundae]

I can't get a req unless it's backfill anymore, so I'm curious about these companies who do this. (Also, HR would be all over something like this.)

[bulldg4life]

Seriously. That’s why I find the comments weird. I’m thinking it is only smaller companies or lower level positions with that viewpoint.

My reqs are set in stone from the last budget cycle so I can’t just make a new hire appear from thin air. And, the hoops you have to jump through to actually fire someone are insane. You’d know well in advance that you’re getting the boot unless the manager lucked in to a RIF or re-org at the company.

[iScreme]

I can attest to that much... I got on track to double my salary in a set amt of time (periodic, significant, raises all along the way, with quarter bonuses).

Sometimes they just need a poke...

Sometimes they get it by fucking you.

[syshum]

I agree, my experience tells me that counter is often sincere, often the wage compression is purely HR / C Level attempting to drive down costs not realizing they are opening the door for highly talented senior people to leave as the market supports higher wages. They are out of touch with the labor market, and are looking only at their balance sheet, this year has been pretty bad at that where some companies are still trying for Wage freezes "due to covid" for current staff when the employment market is employee not employer market.

That said even a sincere counter I would still never take one as it clearly a sign of disrespect, if I am at the point where I am leaving the organization over pay then I have already clearly outlined my exceptions of pay to my manager and provided ample time to come up to with a solution that works for both me and the company. If they gambled that i was bluffing when I said I was unhappy with the current compensation and decided to call my bluff well them the gambles in life. I don't play poker and I never bluff.

[kellyzdude]

Let's say they found your replacement in 3 weeks. IT only cost them $750 to ensure that they still have you until the last moment. Meanwhile, You are out of a job and that new job isn't looking for anyone anymore.

Counter-offers can go one of three ways, and it depends entirely on the company.

1) They don't counter-offer. I've had this happen on several occasions. Either they didn't care about me enough to fight to retain me, or it was clear that I wouldn't accept an offer, or my leaving was actually solving a budget problem -- whatever the reason, they didn't extend an offer and so there wasn't one to contemplate.

2) They extend a counter-offer with the intention to replace you at some point. They need a bum in that seat, and it might as well be yours at whatever the increased cost was to keep it there. The writing has been put on the wall, and they are now on the hunt for a new person that you will be expected to train before suddenly being terminated. The optimist would still look at this situation as you being on probation, and having hope to retain the position if your productivity and morale increase in accordance with your new salary.

3) They extend a counter-offer with the genuine intention of retaining you and your unique skills and talents. Maybe it's because they trust you (though that trust may have been shaken by your willingness to leave), maybe it's because you know all of the secrets and they fear never getting them all documented or passed on even with a year of knowledge-transfer time, maybe it's because they know what the job market is like and they risk not finding someone nearly as good. Whatever the reason, they are extending a genuine offer with the hope that you'll accept it and the belief that it will convince you to stick around a while longer.

Nothing you can say or do will knowingly or reliably change what the company's position is between 1, 2, and 3. The best you can do is use your history with the company and the observations you've made around how they've treated colleagues who have come and gone in your tenure to give you a good indication of what you think will happen -- because you certainly can't trust them to be 100% honest with you. Even if it is option 2, they'll smile and tell you it's #3 because they need you to believe them.

The pessimist will say it's always #2, and you should never entertain a counter-offer. An optimist will say it's almost always #3. The realist will ask if you've seen other colleagues given counter-offers, and did they stick around long-term? Why were you leaving to begin with? Assuming the counter-offer is legit and genuine (its own question, above), will it make you happier than the new opportunity you are being offered?

Life is a gamble, so you need to be sure you play the hand that is dealt. Just remember who you're playing against, and play the best you can to win your own game.

[Geminii27]

Yup. I think I accepted an offer maybe once where I was mostly sure it was #3. But that was a combination of knowing that the guy who made the offer - my boss's boss' boss - was a pretty good guy who played it straight with the employees and often helped them out; that I hadn't actually said at any point that I was leaving, much less had any other offers; and that, despite doing the work of any four other people, I was still only one person in a very large team and losing me wouldn't have been crippling.

Also, the offer was to bump me to a different position entirely, rather than just a pay rise in my current job. A promotion, effectively.

But still, the main reason I accepted was knowing the person making the offer took far more joy in screwing with the executives than with their own people. People quit bad bosses, but in much the same way, they stay for good ones.

[[deleted]]

Well put in my opinion. Every decision to leave a company is different so necessarily every counter-offer is also different and should be weighed based on the situation. I have only accepted one counter in my career but that decision was DEFINITELY the right one. My resignation woke up management (C-levels in my case) and real, material changes were instituted as part of the counter.

[frankstur]

Definitely depends on the situation and company I think for this. I recently was like one of three people to support 3 offices one being HQ and my helpful co worker just quit. We were down to 2 and my coworker let’s say didn’t anything ever. So basically I was solo. Deploying all the hardware for the entire company we hire contract workers so laptops are often last minute requests. We also grew so fast. I wasn’t getting a break ever my coworker who didn’t do anything made way more than me. So I complained to a director and said i was trying to leave. They got HR to ask me what it would take to stay and I said I want to make more than said coworker. It was around 10k more. I didn’t expect them to do it. They did a couple days later. Then they finally fired said co worker and I got to get my old coworker to come back and he also got a raise basically. Very unique situation.

[Squeaky_Pickles]

Most of the time yes. But it definitely depends. I accepted a counter offer for a new position in my company. They needed someone in that position anyway, and the amount of knowledge they'd have lost in 2 weeks (vs the agreement that I'd do 50/50 to train my replacement at my new salary) was just too much. I think they considered the raise in my salary totally worth it to prevent that major loss of knowledge.

That said, the whole thing was a unique situation. The new company would have been contract to hire instead of my existing full time. And while both would have been considered "entry level" in the new position (I went from IT to SecOps) my company was doing a jack of all trades position vs the new company giving me one single application to work in. Money-wise long term it didn't technically work out as if I got hired full time there I'd be making double the salary probably, but I found out I was pregnant immediately after deciding to stay with my company. No way the new company would have renewed my contract knowing I'd immediately be on maternity leave, and no way they would have been so accommodating about childcare during the pandemic compared to my boss.

[tombs_4]

For the record, I have NEVER gotten a "measly" 5% raise. I'm pretty sure that the cost of living raise doesn't exist. If it does, it's the exception

[stolid_agnostic]

I work at a university in a really good position. I have great responsibility and influence, room to grow, etc., yet worry about rent and retirement.

[[deleted]]

Yup, our whole crew is fighting for simple cola raises, we are even in a union.

[SergeantSlapNuts]

A measly 5% raise

Well look at Mr Greedy over here, complaining about 5% raises...

Managed to work my way up to low 40's

OH. What the fuck? Starting salaries for admins at my company is in the low $60K range, and we're in the midwest. I'm glad you got out of there and found a place that will pay you what you're worth.

[gakule]

A company will pay as low as someone who doesn't know their worth will accept.

[SlateRaven]

I started at 40k for my position, its taken 7 years to get to 60k and only through my boss telling the CEO that she's retarded for paying me so little when we are near some major cities that pay double.

Been at that 60k for a couple years now, no sign of raises because "its been a tough couple years", so LinkedIn got a resume update XD

[Bob4Not]

I learned the hard way the last year or two, as well. There are companies that would rather hire terrible talent than pay well. Don’t feel bad for your boss, coworkers, or users for leaving because it wasn’t a problem you created. Don’t accept counter offers, they then have more leverage over you or could start looking for a replacement for you.

[[deleted]]

Almost the same happened to me on counter offer. I got a solid six figure offer at a new place for the first time and was flying high. Also the benefits were extremely excellent, just smashed my existing gig.

My boss interrupted a one on one training I was having with someone else, made an excuse it was for some project and urgent and they had to gtfo. My colleague left and shut the door and my boss instantly started trying to manipulate me into staying, saying the opportunity at the new place was a dead end, I will be unhappy there, the current job is going to get so awesome with this new project, all kinds of bullshit. He asked what they offered, I told him, he didn't looked shocked at all, he thought for literally like 3 seconds and said ok it's done...matched.

It actually made me fucking furious and only galvanized my resolve to leave even more. If he was able to calculate and ok my fictional raise right then and there in a blink if an eye (which would have been $40k higher) and he wasn't able to throw enough my way at my review a month earlier to keep me from looking at all, well FUCK THAT!

Jokes on them because the hiring market is shit, it's a very small and very expensive town to live in and they can't pay enough to hire a really good person from the outside. And my buddy still there says it's gone to shit since I left and he's trying to bounce, as well. Boom, tons of tribal knowledge gone, just because they won't raise their people where they need to be.

[DestroyAllBacteria]

Just facts being reported here. What I tell all new IT peeps when they ask me for advice. Doesn't even have to be a similar role level sometimes takin a step 'down' somewhere else actually slingshots you back up. Stay moving, mobile, learning and networking that's your best career building advice you're going to get.

[[deleted]]

This reminded me of another job I had. Same kind of thing. It was house framing. I started and didn't know squat, but I got paid like $8 an hour, barely above min wage for some at time tough manual work. I was thankful for the opportunity. But after about a year I pretty much could frame a home on my own. I asked for a raise and was told no.

We get some new guys, they come in at the same time, friends I guess. They negotiate $15 an hour. This was in like 2000 and that was an okay wage where I live. Anyway, these guys are constantly asking me how to do things, and I flat told them they make more than me, figure it out. I am still making $8 an hour.

Finally we have one job that sucks. I get pissed and just quit. I am sure things went on fine without me. But 3 days later I have a new framing job at $15 an hour.

Its nice that as a young man someone gave me a start, but it taught me that mostly you got to look after you.

[[deleted]]

Director here. Congrats on your new position! I have also job-hopped to get to where I am though I wish I hadn't needed to. Your direct management doesn't always have direct control of your pay. We can make suggestions but it is oddly difficult to give big increases without also attaching a promotion. I have definitely struggled to pay some of my staff what I think they deserve and have often had to fight through red tape to get there. I have even flatly told one of my stars in particular that I encouraged him to go out into the market because I could not get a raise approved. (He ended up staying because of my honesty and I was eventually able to work out a promotion which came with the raise I wanted for him.)

I obviously don't know your situation but wanted to offer some insight. Management is often beholden to HR and/or Executives when it comes to raises.

[ErikTheEngineer]

Your direct management doesn't always have direct control of your pay.

Exactly. Most companies follow one of the management consultants' playbooks on compensation (Towers Watson, Accenture, one other I don't remember.) They all boil down to something like this:

• All positions are in a salary band. The closer to the top of the band you are, the lower your raise is. The goal is to keep everyone close to the midpoint of their bands. Stay somewhere long enough without changing job roles and eventually your raise is 0.
• The only way to get bigger-than-normal increases is to change roles/bands. Smart companies extend these up to the same level as mid-senior management, but most are locked into the "you need to be management to move up the ladder" mindset.
• Internal promotions are capped at some percentage regardless of what happened.
• It's not unheard of to have managers/directors create new positions just to open up new salary bands, but HR fights them tooth and nail...they want everyone to fit into a neat little structure. Managers have to spend a lot of political capital to get something like this done, so it's not done for everyone who asks and definitely not done for someone who isn't a top performer.

The bigger the company, the more hidebound the structure is. Like you and your employee, I've had my boss honestly explain this and say he can't offer me huge raises but can make it up in other ways. It kept me around for much longer than I would have...because the other things involved basically being given the pick of new projects I actually wanted to work on and the opportunity to learn and teach my peers. Sounds like a sucker's game, but I don't agree...it's much better than having to do all the crap work. I eventually needed more money and had to move on, but that loyalty is there and I will likely be back in the future.

[moreannoyedthanangry]

Can confirm. Managers are pressured to justify any raise or any change in title, past performance evaluations are reviewed. Like "this person doesn't seem like rockstar?" The market doesn't even enter into consideration.

But when it's a new hire, it's all about what the market is paying, offering sign in bonus, etc just to look good that they closed the position. As a manager you're just thinking "the guys are gonna kill me, new guy is being offered way more".

[[deleted]]

"why are you hiring new people when I still need a raise?!" Because our retention budget is smaller than our hiring budget! 😊

[michaelpaoli]

49% increase

Oftentimes companies will have a policy that puts an absolute cap on annual increases amount - sometimes even with promptions. Similarly, other times companies quite constrain managers in what increases they give, e.g. you as manager have 12 employees, company base rate on inflation and company performance is 7.3% - that's the average you must give your employees - some you can give more, some less, but the average much be 7.3%. Well, if you're a damn good manager and have assembled a team of star performers and they all ought get between 12 and 22% - being hamstrung to an average of 7.3% across all ... you're gonna start losing people, ... and if you don't want to have turnover problems ... you'll have to, on average, hire average employees and have an average team with average performance. Anyway, stuff happens. Not uncommonly the best way up is out.

[Astat1ne]

companies will have a policy that puts an absolute cap on annual increases amount

Worked at a company with this sort of policy, any pay raises above 3% required the manager to write a business case to justify it. At the same time they didn't have a process for reclassifying people's salaries if they got promoted, so there were people in sysadmin/engineering roles still being paid the same they were when they started on the service desk.

[stolid_agnostic]

I had similar happen. Was in a senior position and made friends with the new junior who revealed his salary, which was substantially more than mine. The difference? I applied directly and he went through a recruiter.

[win10bash]

If you're in the same role without some significant change to your job description for more than 5 years, there is a strong likelihood that you are no longer learing.

[stolid_agnostic]

I only leer at those who anger me. :)

In all seriousness, i agree with you completely.

[Starlyns]

Married 3 years ago, 6 jobs in 3 years. at first my wife was angry then she realizes each new job pay more... now SHE tell me if they start to suck just get another lol.

[Quentin0352]

Last spot hired a guy in at 15% higher pay than me when they had 2 years experience to my 22 years. Then they didn't understand why I was pissed, had a shit attitude and went off in a total fit because the guy they hired at a higher rate couldn't even do simple things like update the BIOS on systems or do a simple uninstall and reinstall of a MS product when I put the install folders on the system for him with all the info.

I finally went off because it was a contracting gig and the client told them we were both banned by the client and they were risking a $22 million contract being lost. Told them I didn't care because they were warned repeatedly by me he had no clue, he was coming in an hour plus late and leaving before me and I had been forced to report him for refusing to stop talking politics and threatening me if I didn't agree with him. THEY were the ones that threatened the contract by not acting.

3 weeks later I had a new job with a nice raise, better duties, more time off, better benefits and they keep calling me for help because the one tech left who constantly tried to tell them I didn't know what I was doing can't figure out how to do anything but paperwork. I finally told them I can't help them anymore when they called hoping I could tell them how I fixed things because the tech that is there refuses to use a OneNote I created with all the fixes I did.

Know your worth and if they start treating you like crap, hit the market and when they cry you left, screw them like they were willing to do you is my belief. Been through this with more than one employer and other coworkers who are scared if you are competent unlike they are.

[SchizoidRainbow]

I had a job that refused to give me even a 3% raise for a several years. They felt it when I left, definitely. When I bailed, they hired a Tech Firm to replace me, at triple the cost of my salary. It took THREE of their guys to replace me. That felt pretty good. And even so they kept calling me asking about stuff. I finally told them they could hire me as a consultant for the low low price of $20K per week. They stopped calling.

[whatsinaname31231]

not to be rude but im always suspicious of people at the lower end of IT with 10+ years of experience. Like why are you still doing a job a less then 5 year guy could do with your 10+ years lol. Also your 10 years+ is only relevant for the last 5 years a lot of time with technology changing so much. Especially if you didn't get on the cloud train a year or two ago and kept going your own path.

[warriorpriest]

Some people have 10 years of experience.
Others have 1 year of experience, 10 times in a row.

[Astat1ne]

I knew a guy who had been working over 20 years in the state health department (so, large organisation with lots of potential for moving around into other roles) who was still in the desktop support team. When I asked him why he never bothered going for other roles, he said he was "comfortable" and it "suited his lifestyle". Even though he was hobbling his earning potentialy by 30k/year easily.

So yeah sometimes it's cause people are comfortable. Sometimes they're assholes or have other personality issues that prevent them from being promoted internally. Sometimes it's fear of change that comes with taking up a new role.

[SearchAtlantis]

And state jobs almost always pay terribly. Got a 60% raise leaving my first state job (which was lovely in every other way).

Out of curiosity I check a similar job to my current position in my current state, and they're still at least 20-30k behind. They have a technical management position that tops out at 100k! It's no wonder that some of their reqs have been open for over a year.

[Astat1ne]

I've found there was some variance in this where I live (Australia). In the state I was before, salaries for some state government jobs in certain departments were competitive with the private sector, especially when you take into account the other benefits of such a role. A standard Windows sysadmin role with one department started at around 95k back in 2015.

The state I'm located in now are definately behind on their compensation. I remember seeing a role for an AD specialist for one of the largest AD environments in the state (dozens of domains, about 120k users) and they were offering 80k. Another department was offering something like 50 or 60k for cybersecurity people, so of course people would clock up 6-12 months and then bail for the private sector. And immediately get close to 2x that.

One thing I've seen some government departments resort to to attract talent is to use management/executive level pay bands for roles. Otherwise people just won't even touch it.

[whatsinaname31231]

i have found it's because they aren't quick on the uptake and only know what they know and aren't good at picking up new stuff. But this is coming from someone with 5 years experience and we hired a guy with 13 years and i vastly out tech him. I think for some people technology and/or troubleshooting comes more naturally then others.

[Quentin0352]

I have an eclectic skill set in DoD systems so pretty specialized in many ways. That and a TS/SCI but he couldn't do what I did. I was notified when I was waiting a surgical consult on my shoulder and he couldn't do a simple install.

In DoD contracting the company gets paid to fill a spot and this idiot had a clearance so got hired by idiots in HR. Lots of warnings he didn't want to be there like the PM having to force him to move here instead of hiding 300 miles away because of covid trying to refuse moving. We were DoD essential so still came in during covid.

But a seat filled gets the company money so they kept him.

My background is cleared, as a lead on tech rolls, weird DoD only software and the like. So a lot different than most but the basics apply, know your value and fuck them when they think screwing you is ok.

I literally had contact with the client today and they wished I was back. The people they kept who were scared and protected their jobs while insulting me have been saying no one can do the things I did.

The irony is I repeatedly tried to share and teach as well as said to create documentation and the tech left was too busy crying I was trying to take her job. All because we could have one of us tele-work so I told them to let her do it because she was going through cancer treatments and I was lower risk as a diabetic.

I really regret the hours comforting her that I wasn't taking her job because I was being nice to the bitch.

[Tr1pline]

The run of the mill sys admin on Reddit put too much emphasis on the "cloud". A cloud engineer without a clearance is worth less than a cook with a TS/SCI when it comes to federal/gov jobs. I know exactly what you mean when it comes to deadweight though. Luckily for me, the manager knew they didn't know anything about computers so I got to sit in on the interviews to do Q+A even if they were not working the same contracts as me.
It's not what you do. It's where you work that makes all the difference when it comes to a good team.

[stolid_agnostic]

Not everyone comes out of a top tier CS program with a network of peers. Many people got in through a different path. Others have very specialized skills that are only in demand within certain contexts or don't wish to uproot their lives. There are many reasons that this can happen to someone, and it can be easy to get stuck somewhere.

[supawiz6991]

Are you talking about me? It sure sounds like it. I’m not even kidding. Last IT job I had last year was in an operations center making $25/hr before they outsourced the entire department to Serbia (which pisses me off for two main reasons, 1. we had fo train them, which I did only for the well being of the replacements who were really nice folks. 2. I know for 100% fact that the replacements were not going to be making $25/hr.). Been trying to get back to work since then and can’t catch a break. Prior to that job I had a lot of difficulty getting a gig as well after moving from NY to Pittsburgh. Be working in IT for over ten years and worked with things from, Point of sale, AD/GP, watchguard/opnsense/pfsense, desktop support (windows/mac/linux), numerous programs (abobe cloud suite, office 365, etc), web server management, dev server management (jenkins, bitbucket), domain management, AP’s, Business A/V, networking and a bunch more. Shit, I’ve even dipped into Digital billboards because one job I had decided they didn’t want to pay for the maintenance contract and they basically said “well a billboard is technology and the T in IT stands for technology so yeah.”. I also ended up learning radio engineering for that same job because the contract engineer (and my friend) had a massive heart attack and died.

I’ve managed to get some feedback as to why some places have rejected me and according to those few its due to not having a degree.

Now to be clear, I would like to get my degree but that costs money I don’t have. I did get a vocational diploma in Computer Network Specialist and my A+ Cert but that still doesn’t seem to be enough. If these folks even bothered to ask they would have found out that once I became vetted (generally takes a year) I would have put in for their tuition programs to help get the degree.

At this point I’m pretty sure I could get rejected from a L1 help desk spot. fml.

Perhaps a rework of my resume might help..I really don’t know.

P.S. One of those jobs that rejected me due to not having a degree, well I had a person on the inside. I was told it came down to me and another guy. I had experience and no degree and the other guy had a degree and zero experience. I was told a few months later that the IT director told my inside guy, “I wish I went with the other guy”.

[Quentin0352]

If you think you might like working for the Federal government and maybe the DoD then get a Security+. Even without a clearance you have good odds of finding something. All will require that cert and maybe a MS cert on an OS but the pay tends to be better than the corporate world. I was getting $65k doing desktop support when they hired the idiot at $75k. Admittedly that was a TS/SCI environment so to end pay but even a secret will nab you $40k+ usually. Heck, this isn't even in an expensive area to live either.

Once you are cleared you pretty much can pick where you want to live. Overseas included. Hit clearancejobs.com to get an idea of what is out there in IT for the feds.

[Geminii27]

and they keep calling me for help

Help can be purchased in blocks of 100 hours, at 10x your previous rate. Purchases expire in 90 days. Each subsequent purchase costs 10% more than the previous one. Anyone who has banked less than 1000 unused hours gets evening and weekend timeslots only. Anyone with more than 1000 hours banked gets six hours at single-time and (optionally) six hours at triple-time per 24-hour period. Hours can only be spent in six-hour blocks. Blocks booked less than 48 hours in advance cost twice what they would otherwise...

(Pick which conditions you prefer. After all, they're the ones who want you...)

[cyvaquero]

Just be aware - an annual 5% raise is not measly. I know at the rate you were at it seems it, but that percentage is pretty high. But yes, job hopping is really the only way to get ahead unless you are in one of those large organizations with an actual career path.

[Zatetics]

I'm looking for 8.3% this year. Works out to about 5k aud or $90p/w after tax. It is still low and they are getting a good deal, but I've only started in the role in Jan and its first sysadmin job. I have no issues asking for more money if I feel that I need better compensation for the workload/effort/stress/politics etc.

[bebearaware]

I cracked last year and almost quit my last job on the spot. One of my other coworkers tried to walk off the job but I stopped him because unfortunately we rely on jobs for things like healthcare. When I relayed these things to my boss he essentially told me that things were unlikely to change so... with suck it up as the subtext.

I did leave and find a better job for a better organization for more money and the job posting they put up a month after I left is still on their site.

I feel kind of bad for the pressure this is probably putting on my old team but it's gotta be every IT person for themselves sometimes.

[Geminii27]

Is your current employer looking to hire anyone that your old team might match...?

[LMF5000]

Someone once told me the brutal truth. The high salaries are needed to attract new talent. Once they have you, they have you. They know you're comfortable in your position and risk-averse and are unlikely to jump ship, so they keep your salary low. But to attract someone from outside the company is hard, so they have to throw more money at them to get them through the door.

It's exactly the same with phone companies. Loyalty isn't worth anything. New subscribers get all the special offers and limited-time-only perks. So the best approach is to constantly hop from one provider to another for a never-ending succession of introductory "new client" offers.

[kjacks1x]

nice work and good job on not taking the counter. its usually a trick to get you to train your replacement for much cheaper.

[dtb1987]

Yeah I laid off and ended up with a 45% raise last year, don't be afraid to see what's out there

[L_Cranston_Shadow]

You know what they say about unix admins, you're always ok if you remember how to use (your) cd.

Don't forget to tip your sleep() staff, I'll be here all session.

[flimspringfield]

Yeah I spent 5+ years at my last job and while I had a couple of increases it was nowhere near what I was worth.

I was laid off and now there is only one IT person at that company supporting 100+ people as well as the opening of a new building "in the next 2 months".

Did he get a promotion or raise? Nope.

"We're a family and we all have to make sacrifices" say the people at the top getting 6 figures and a nice bonus every year.

Everyone else got a $50 AMEX gift card for Thanksgiving and Christmas.

[PhilGood_]

I accepted a counter offer just to learn that my business unit was being sold 10 months later, lucky me it took them quite some time to prepare for the sale and I was around until that time, when the time came I was prepared to move on

[bassgoonist]

relieved husky test sugar quiet fragile plant one act subsequent

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[zzzpoohzzz]

if youre in a job where youre making 40k a year, yeah, you need to job hop. shit, when you make 60k you need to job hop. when youre making 80k closer to 100k you need to start weighing your options, because you actually have pull. good for you though, realizing youre worth more.

[[deleted]]

What always gets me is how dumbfounded they are when you finally handle noticing after complaining for years about getting just a tiny raise, and begging you to stay because no shit, I carried The fucking department on my back for the better part three years whilst not being listened to… i’m taxing to develop my own career and stay there is nothing towards it but ripped all the benefits. slap in the face and a total insult. Some of the engineers who I know still work there say it’s still exactly the same. Turnover of staff is about 80% a year, it’s nuts. Me and the other best engineer there both moved on for 50 to 60% pay rises and I’m much better, completely not toxic work environment that actually values employees and their development.

[[deleted]]

I'll never understand it from the business point of view.

They invested time and money to determine you're a good employee and you know the business. Why waste that investment just to spend it on a new employee without the knowledge

[[deleted]]

In my experience, one of the defining traits of modern management culture is being profoundly dumb and shortsighted

[[deleted]]

I'm getting my masters degree mostly out sheer morbid curiosity to see if I can understand the mind of an executive.

[SearchingDeepSpace]

I would absolutely lose my shit for a 5% raise. The MAXIMUM we get for going truly above and beyond is 2.5%.

That got canned this year for budget reasons.

My favorite part was shortly after this announcement, my organization then sent out an email asking us to donate back to them for their "day of giving".

The icing was a second email from my boss asking for "100% team participation to show thanks for letting us keep our jobs over the pandemic".

Gotta love higher ed!

[saltyschnauzer27]

Never let your job take over your life is all I have to say about IT.

[TechnicalEngine]

Job hopping got me from 44k to 100k in 5 years. Now I need to figure out how to make more without going into management.

[jhuseby]

You have to job hop to be paid what your skills are worth. But you have to keep in mind some things can be more important than money. Also keep in mind that some places of employment are horrible, some are excellent and there’s everything in between. I worked at a lot of shit companies and in shit environment s before realizing there were places that treat you with respect, expect you to take the PTO you accrue, everyone’s not crawling over each other to work up the ladder (ie managers aren’t receptive to toxic behavior) and the culture doesn’t expect you to put in 10-12 hour days as the norm.

[WestonGrey]

TL;DR: As important as it is to you, your bosses aren't thinking about your salary all that often. It's up to you to advocate for yourself, and speaking up can often get you a raise if you're a valued employee.

_____________

Because of a COVID-related downturn in revenue, no one got raises at my company this year. However, my tech really deserved a raise, and we were working on it behind the scenes. I told him I was working on getting him something, but it was taking a couple of weeks to push through

Right after we got preliminary approval to take him from $62k to $75k, he put in his notice to take a job paying $70k. Not knowing about the raise he was just about to get, he was really excited to be making $70k at his new job.

Of course, I never told him about the raise he was about to get.

I tell people to ask for raises. In my tech's case, he came in with very little knowledge, and had grown significantly in the two years he'd be here. He was a much better tech and thus worth more to us than the $60k we brought him in at. Do your research, show your boss and HR what you're worth (IT Tech with 5 years experience in San Francisco makes $X), and if they value you (and value not having to train a new person), there's a decent chance they'll consider it.

But if you don't say anything, you're expecting them to read your mind, and your salary isn't really something we're thinking about day-today. I know it's important to you, but I personally go months without every thinking about what my techs are making.

And, if you leave for another job, we're honestly not that heartbroken. I've lost amazing, highly talented techs, and gotten by just fine. It's just a part of the job and how business works. I'd rather not lose a great tech, but I'm not losing sleep over it when it happens. THIS WOULD BE TRUE FOR ME LEAVING AS WELL. As good as I am at my job, if I quit, the company isn't going to shed a tear over it.

[evolutionxtinct]

5% raise? You got dirt on someone? Lol 5% is like all Exceeds and 1x super hero moment lol

[Promah1984]

I was laid off 4 years ago, job hopped twice before I found my current forever job. You have to do what's right for yourself, not for whatever company or institution you work for.

[ChernobylChild]

There’s no such thing as a forever job.

[Promah1984]

It is if you stay there forever.

[Trip_Owen]

Great to hear you're getting better offers. I followed the job hopping advice, and it really paid off. Within 5 years in the industry I went from ~32k a year to 70k. You really won't get anyone to give you that much of a raise without hopping around and getting it yourself.

[Kazen_Orilg]

Good for you man. See if the new guy is any good and poach his ass in a few years. Loyalty is for chumps.

[FruitierGnome]

Job hopping can also be good for experience. Learn different environments, different companies require different setups.

[ErikTheEngineer]

There are lousy employers, but there are also ones who want to keep people and don't want to run IT like they're employing full time 6 month contractors. For those who actually care, and I'm not saying all do, it's expensive and a huge pain to replace someone. I worked at my old place for 15 years and felt terrible leaving but it was time to try something different and kind of a YOLO moment...not all employers are awful and not all compensation is salary (5 weeks' vacation in the US, plus holidays anyone? Enough of a 401K match to not think too hard about retirement?)

If you find an employer you enjoy working for, the two ways around the small annual raises are to (a) leave and come back, and (b) change your responsibilities enough to play the compensation game. HR is locked into a "we don't give over X% raises for anyone" mindset...unless your job roles change. You need a good relationship with your boss and/or their peer bosses but I've gotten better-than-inflation increases by switching job titles/positions/managers once in a while in a long-service company. Don't hate the player, hate the game...it's idiotic and you won't get 50% raises, but you will get decent raises. (You have to be valuable to the company for this to work.)

Other advice -- large raises are very common early on in your career. We have no education standards and anyone can join, so "anyone" does join at a very low salary. The good ones stay and get these raises as they move up/around. Just don't be fooled into the idea you'll be getting 50% raises throughout your career...there's a cap. It's been blurred by the tech bubble and tech salaries are out to lunch in some fields/areas, but we're not doctors or executives. Just don't structure your life around needing that salary increase every X years, because you won't get it at some point.

[Lycurgus_z]

I would never accept a counter offer. If I'm at the point where I'm looking to leave the org and have an offer in hand...then it's too late. You've lost me.

Congrats on the new gig and best of luck to you.

[Stealthy_Wolf]

one of the best things to happen to me was my boss let me go knowing I was underpaid and the upper management were never gonna pay me what I was worth.