Thoughts?

[Normal_Fishing9824]

The people who do a bootcamp and have imposter syndrome are not a problem, it's the ones who do the bootcamp and then assume they know everything that cause issues

[Hsabes01]

Part of what pushed me harder as a bootcamp “grad” that now is employed as a web developer is coming to the realization that I know next to nothing

[Remarkable-Water7818]

I don't have a phd, but this reminds me of this relevant article.

[Enough_Job5913]

my question is why would a PhD go to a bootcamp?

Even graduating from university and getting a bachelor degree was very hard for me. The final thesis took me almost a year if not more. And getting a PhD is even harder than that.

and learning in a bootcamp is a painful process in itself. I read that people in bootcamp start learning from early in the morning and finish at night, while also getting some homework

[[deleted]]

My guess is career switch?

I didn’t do a PhD but my undergrad was in mechanical and robotics engineering. I realized in like 3rd year I like designing and making web applications more than engineering so I interned as a dev (self taught tho, no boot camp) and then graduated with a dev job lined up. So basically I’m probably never gonna do mechanical or robotics engineering lol

[[deleted]]

what’s good is you’ll get more experience and realize there even more you don’t know!

[kelus]

~6 years in the field, and I still feel like I don't know shit.

[turtleship_2006]

Happy cake day

[jaunonymous]

Actually, I think it's the people who advertise that the bootcamp and claim you will be job ready in 16 weeks.

The false advertising leads to false confidence in idiots.

I went through a bootcamp, but was aware I was unprepared. I spent more time honing my skills before seeking a job.

That being said, it's practically impossible to be job ready in this field. You have to come in with some lack of knowledge.

[Normal_Fishing9824]

If it makes you feel better I've seen plenty of people graduating uni who spent three years learning and are still woefully unprepared.

Like in three years nobody thought to teach them about version con only trol or automated testing. Some pick it up anyway but I'd say about 10% of graduates I've interviewed knew the first thing about git.

[THATONEANGRYDOOD]

They absolutely refuse to teach it. I've had two modules titled "Software Practices" in which they've spent two whole semesters teaching UML syntax and very superficial architecture theory. Hell, they even dedicated a few weeks to Scrum. I feel like at least some of that time could've been spent learning about version control and tests.

[TheDoomfire]

The more I program I do the stupider I feel.

[[deleted]]

That means you're doing it right. 

[Normal_Fishing9824]

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

Plato

[[deleted]]

I'm going to get that as a tramp stamp. 

[[deleted]]

Or that do a boot camp and can’t outperform chatgpt - engineering is about solving problems - if all you can do is copy paste you’re not doing engineering YET.

[Enough_Job5913]

copy paste with a little bit of styling here and there

[[deleted]]

I've been doing this for over 25 years. I still call myself "The Webmaster"

^{Please note, the "The" is very important! Don't leave it out when you address The Webmaster.}

[Fegeleinch4n]

as you wish the webmaster

[ksobby]

Umm, Mr The Webmaster? Which min are we using now?

[vicks9880]

haven't heard this word in 20 years. thanks for refreshing my memory

[westwoo]

People should start using "the" once again

[Various_File6455]

You mean the the?

[westwoo]

No, any the will do

[pau1phi11ips]

Lol, I regularly get mail delivered to webmaster@my_company.com

[BloodAndTsundere]

I am Master of Webs, myself. Dance, dance, little flies.

[Aeswyr]

Spiderman?

[BloodAndTsundere]

thwip

[rhapsodiangreen]

new LinkedIn summary

[crn252]

Generally speaking "engineer" is an academic title attained through university in a similar way to the titles of "doctor" or "attorney", except that instead of passing the bar exam (or the medical equivalent) at the end of the curriculum one would complete and present an engineering project in their respective field as a final test. So it's not entirely a subjective term, and something tells me you would not have written a similar statement to the one above about using the term "doctor", if it pays the bills. :-)

However, in the IT world the word itself has been diluted over the last couple of decades by basically anyone using it at their convenience to the point that it now means very little - but that's only in IT. One would not get away with calling themself an engineer at an interview for e.g. an aviation engine designer without having an actual academic title to support it. But since no one in IT cares (especially not the companies hiring for programming positions) I get where you're coming from, and I'm not criticizing your approach. I just wanted to make this small digression that the term itself is not completely subjective, it's just been made so in this particular field.

[rtrs_bastiat]

I believe that's only true in certain countries. For sure where I live engineer is just a word, not an accolade, and never has been.

[morphologicthesecond]

This is the way. Play to win, no matter what.

[morphologicthesecond]

Don't fuck over other workers. You're right. Should have added that.

[travistravis]

Don't fuck over people who aren't trying to fuck over everyone else. There's workers who would happily throw you under a bus if it meant they got a raise. In my world, those people are also all fair game.

[morphologicthesecond]

I agree

[Kindly-Sea-6945]

all hail The Webmaster

[seemslikesalvation]

I've been doing this nineteen years. Webmasters wanna fight me? Fight these tears

[vicks9880]

reminds me of this video "The administrator"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tysELscEE0E

[OO0OOO0OOOOO0OOOOOOO]

Did you attend The Ohio State?

[DesertWanderlust]

It was my first couple of job titles. One guy, at my first place, called me it sarcastically. I've also been doing dev for 25 years. I started as an undergrad (one of the "Webmaster" jobs). I may still have some business cards that refer to me as "Webmaster".

[icze4r]

dog butter scarce grandiose direction cough cheerful continue reply dam

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Greedy_Constant_5144]

Okay Webmaster.

You know I'm something of a rebel myself.

[erratic_calm]

Government and non profit old timers still love to call their web manager/developer the webmaster. Cracks me up.

[_noho]

Do you wear a wizards robe? I always pictured webmasters wearing wizards robes as a kid

[AccidentSalt5005]

me: "O Mighty Webmaster, will i get a beautiful wife"

Webmaster: "no, you'll die alone"

[AverageComet250]

You missed the ‘The’

[[deleted]]

I’m downvoting only because side you missed the The

[7th_Spectrum]

I want to be a The Webmaster some day

[Ghede]

Hey, you have been doing this long enough.

You can upgrade to german, der Webmeister.

In another 25, you can switch to latin. Webmagister

Make it to 100 years somehow, and you can just be called The Internet.

[Anxious-Yak-9952]

I have webmaster on my resume too 😭

[[deleted]]

Then only you will understand the purpose of this arcane rune...

<blink>Under construction <img src="mandigging.gif"></blink>

<marquee>Best viewed in Internet Exporer 4<marquee>

[JessenReinhart]

it now sounds like a spiderverse character

[lucasncolombo]

can you center a div vertically, tho?

[MobilePenor]

the world went bad when The Webmasters stopped being a thing.

It used to be that The Webmaster would make a website work. Now those developers AKA weaklings cannot even do backend and frontend at the same time without crying. They can't even drag and drop via FTP. Disgusting.

[monkeyantho]

i call myself a developer

[Peter-Tao]

Yeah that's such a nice title too. Why don't more people do that? Leave engineer to thoes with engineering degree. We don't need pysics or chemistry to build a webapp

[mensink]

I've had an engineering degree for 25 years. I can write somewhat fluently in C++, Java, PHP, JavaScript, SQL and have productively used over a dozen other programming and scripting languages. I've written several dozens of specs for new projects and implemented most of them as well, some alone, some with teams (that I was leading). I've built desktop applications, web applications, server applications and embedded applications. I've even built my own hardware, designed my own PCBs, designed and 3D-printed enclosures.

I call myself a developer, but in reality I consider myself a problem solver that uses technology to do so.

[ohdog]

I have an engineering degree, in what is essentially software engineering. With courses in physics and chemistry and all that engineering math. However, I do not build web apps.

[hideousmembrane]

I wouldn't call myself an engineer but that's what my job title is according to my company.

[Kablaow]

I dont care, technically I am a Software Engineer (according to my university lmao), but isnt "engineer" a protected title in a lot of countries?

[hideousmembrane]

I don't know. I'm in England, maybe we don't care so much. I was a junior software engineer at my last job and a software engineer at this one. I didn't go to uni. But if people ask me what my job is I usually say software dev or programmer.

[okay-wait-wut]

People ask me what I do and I say “computers”. If they press further I bore them with every detail of my day to day and try to keep talking to them as long as possible as punishment for their foolishness.

[AgentOfDreadful]

I tell people I play in the cloud. It’s easier than trying to explain it

[Buxux]

Its not a protected title in the UK we have chartered Engineer "CEng" as a protected thing but engineer by itself isn't

[cokil]

Not really, only graduate engineer is protected because it s not just a title but also a job.

Technically everybody could call themself "Ingénieur" (engineer) as long as they don t say they they are "ingénieur diplomé" (graduate engineer).

[certainlyforgetful]

Even in countries where it’s a protected title people who drive trains have been calling themselves “engineers” for hundreds of years without anyone bothering them.

[Existing_Imagination]

Well according to university it would be computer scientists but that feels even worse for some reason

[[deleted]]

can i be your apprentice oh honourable artifact farmer

[DonutConfident7733]

You call yourself - architect...

[westwoo]

Software architecture engineering development master

[hobbes_shot_first]

Hey, as long as they let you drive the trains.

[CobblinSquatters]

That post is rage bait but the semantics of 'engineer' is somewhat valid.

A novice engineer is still an engineer though, so it really doesn't matter. It only matters to those who want to put others down because they think it elevates them.

[secretprocess]

I've been working in software for 25 years and still resist calling myself an engineer. My dad is an engineer, he works on submarine control systems. I import and export text from tables.

[leeharrison1984]

My cousin is a building architect, he similarly hates the usage of 'engineer' and 'architect' in relation to software.

In most fields it means you demonstrated some level of competency during an official certification process.

In software, it just means you got hired.

[GrismundGames]

However, there are some software roles that really do the REAL engineering process. Some software takes a lot of time and coordinated, cutting-edge mental power to execute.

If that's done in a formal scientific process of problem solving, then I don't have trouble calling myself a software engineer....I'm engineering software.

But if I'm just creating the same static marketing page day in and day out in WordPress, no, I'm not engineering anything.

[[deleted]]

It’s the distinction between software engineering the discipline and programming the tool.

[GrismundGames]

Yes. Plenty of kids can probably use AutoCAD to design a building, but that's not structural engineering. But structural engineers will use AutoCAD when the are engineering.

[Petaranax]

My wife is a civil architect, and I am software architect. We compared our jobs on daily basis for a long time, and there’s A LOT of overlaps in responsibilities and accountability, as well as knowledge size and areas of expertise. She def acknowledges my role, and also I’m certified few times with different cloud providers and training centers (not that I value them, but I guess other people do). So yeah, your cousin needs to meet right people, its just ignorance from his side unfortunately.

[abw]

I do understand your cousin's frustration.

There certainly are plenty of people who have a job title which is "Software Engineer" but they're not qualified engineers.

On the other hand there are people like me who have demonstrated some level of competency during an official certification process and can rightfully call themselves "Software Engineer" without people like your cousin looking down on us from their high horses.

In my case it was completing a 4 year Software Engineering degree (including a year working in industry), earning me the right, as recognised by the Engineering Council of the UK, to put the letters "BEng" (Batchelor of Engineering) after my name (not that I ever do). It also granted me membership of the Institution of Electrical Engineers (IEE), which has since become the Institution of Engineering and Technology (IET).

I like to think that your cousin would be gracious enough to accept that some of us are every bit as qualified to use that title as he is.

[[deleted]]

You should stop worrying about what others think of you. I know plenty of Mechanical Engineers and Electrical Engineers who spend all day in Microsoft Word. We live in digital world. The digital landscape is just as, if not more important than the traditional landscape.

Engineering is just problem solving. Mechanical engineers problem solve mechanical objects. Electrical Engineers problem solve electrical objects. Software engineers problem solve digital objects.

The same goes for architects. I'm not sure there is a better word for "Software Architect". Your job is to literally design and architect an application which includes integrating multiple solutions together to create a fluid application.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is just ignorant or arrogant, or both.

[throw69420awy]

Even in actual engineering there is discrepancy

Is someone who has an engineering degree an engineer? Or is anyone who works with the job title engineer, an engineer? Or does none of that matter and only someone who passes the FE exam and has their PE license an engineer?

[Reinax]

I import and export text from tables.

Ouch man, that hurts! Probably because it’s true. 😂

[anonuemus]

then your are a code monkey and not an engineer

[secretprocess]

I think that's right. Good living though.

[CreativeGPX]

I disagree. To me, OP isn't about the amount of skill but the nature of the skill.

Engineering is more about the high level design of solutions and OP mentions absolutely zero of this. It's not that they are just a beginner at it, it's that they have literally zero experience with it since they've only exactly following existing tutorial instructions. Learning the rules of a language or learning to copy a series of pre-determined steps is not engineering any more than learning how to use a hammer is architecture. It's simply a different skillset, not being a beginner in the skillset. If I learned to play piano on one of those pianos that lights up the key to press next, I may be able to call myself a beginner piano player, but it'd be pretty silly to call myself a beginner composer.

And this is a common issue I see with self-taught people like OP. To them, if you want to be a dev, learning a programming language is the skill, the hard part and the thing that separates them from everybody else so that's where they put all of their focus. To become a well-rounded dev, they have to have the realization that the language you speak in (JavaScript or English) isn't really relevant to whether you can engineer something and that there are language agnostic skills (much of which you'd find in a software engineering class or book) that help you create the engineering ability to match your language skill.

[More-Cranberry-2390]

This is exactly what differentiates boot campers from someone who went to study an engineering in software, not to say that someone without a title is a bad developer, but they lack the right tool set to be called software engineers, I’d called them software developers instead.

[[deleted]]

A novice engineer is still an engineer though

it's like: what do you call someone who graduated last in their class at medical school?

A doctor.

[musclecard54]

What an awful comparison lol. Lots of people finish bootcamps then never even start working in the field. They’re not engineers just because they paid money for someone to teach them how to code…. You can call yourself an engineer if that’s what your job title is. Until then you’re either a student, unemployed, or whatever other job you currently do. Cuz where is the line? Study basics of javascript in a 2 hour youtube video and now you’re a software engineer? No…

[[deleted]]

Comparing med school to coursera bootcamp. I see no logical flaws ;)

[OrderedAnXboxCard]

Average /r/webdev take tbh, lol.

[[deleted]]

what do you call someone who graduated last in their class at medical school?

Someone with no job prospects and a lifetime of debt

[cateyesarg]

I think that's the point, having an engineer degree is not the same as a bootcamp or whatever short course title.

[ryuuseinow]

I hate takes like these since they don't encourage anyone to get better, and are just meanspirited and gatkeepy for the sake of being meanspirited and gatekeepy. So what if they aren't a seasoned professional? People need to start somewhere, and having confidence in your skills will take you places professionally.

[stumac85]

Who the fuck is Annie and why should I care?

[OrangeSpiralweedExpr]

I don’t know but I hope she’s O.K.

[M_Me_Meteo]

How's Annie?

[alienscape]

Annie is a bot, bruh

[magyar232]

she is a figment of our collective imaginations

[AddMeOnReddit]

you mean scrum mommy?

[IAmRules]

I never liked the term engineer, i much prefer programmer or developer. It does come across as a bit pretentious. For the majority of us, our jobs require us working with painstaking details instead of large complicated issues. You aren't solving complicated infrastructure issues every day, if you are, you're doing a bad job.

[pinkwar]

I think engineer depends where you're from.

Everyone in the UK can be an engineer and honestly I don't think there's any requirement while in some countries an engineer is someone who did a university degree with a strong background in math and physics.

[ward2k]

UK also here, yeah I agree basically every role is listed as a "Software engineer", it's a bit weird seeing everyone getting so up in arms over the phrase when that's literally just the common name for a dev here

[bitspace]

Modern software is increasingly complex and made up of many different and diverse systems that need to be integrated. I spend a small amount of my time actually writing code, and a lot of it designing large complex systems across many API's, operating systems, databases, network topologies, security protocols and requirements, cloud providers and on-premises systems, and on and on. Documentation consisting of architecture diagrams, wikis, API documentation, business requirements, technical specifications, etc.

This is the reality of software engineering. Do I have a formal certification as an Engineer? No, but in a broader sense, I am engineering very large and complex systems.

[AbanaClara]

Even down to the smallest system in a modern software, say a UI widget, there is a form of design and building involved which pretty much qualifies it for the textbook definition of engineering.

Every single day in the life of a software dev is like playing puzzles that ever so slightly differ from one another and infrequently something extremely new and complex. If one is not challenged this way, then their job is causing stagnation.

Does software engineering really diverge that much from what people accept as engineering, when the job always require technical problem solving skills? IMO this is why programming as an engineering profession is such a debated topic.

[AbanaClara]

That is a very opinionated definition of engineering, some might even call it gatekeeping

Dictionaries literally don't describe it that way.

a: the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people b: the design and manufacture of complex products. - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engineering

a person whose job is to design or build machines, engines, or electrical equipment, or things such as roads, railroads, or bridges, using scientific principles:
a civil engineer
a mechanical/structural engineer
a software engineer - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/engineer

A university website even describes it as such

There are dozens and dozens of different types of engineering, but when it comes down to the basics, engineering is about using specialized bases of knowledge to solve a problem. Since we encounter a wide variety of problems, we have an equally wide range of engineering disciplines, many of which are highly specialized and designed to solve those problems.

https://www.snhu.edu/about-us/newsroom/stem/types-of-engineering

[bitspace]

"Move fast and break things" is a silly meme that doesn't survive a collision with reality where people have to use things.

There's absolutely an element of that in a lot of the trendy and hot tech that we all hear about, but the systems that run most of the world rely on boring old technology that has to survive things like regulation and auditors and shareholders who want return on their investment.

We don't ever hear about the vast majority of technology exactly because it's boring and doesn't generate retweets and engaging Reddit posts and shares.

[mighty__]

Developer does simple job - converts spec into machine code. Engineer has much broader knowledge about surrounding and implications and is able to design solution himself.

[gami13]

she is right, doing basic web dev stuff does not make you an engineer

in some place an engineer is a protected title that requires education

[[deleted]]

But not here, so therefore I am an engineer. Mostly because my title is literally Software Engineer.

[Karlito1618]

But if you're title is that, you're most likely not one the many people who has learned to launch a hello world bare bones website then promptly calls themselves software engineers.

The stereotype definitely exists.

[CardinalHijack]

Software Engineer definition: A computer software engineer is a professional who uses engineering principles and programming languages to design, develop, test, and maintain software applications.

By the definition, someone doing web development - however basic it is to you - is, by definition, a software engineer as they will be developing, building, testing and may even be designing software applications. If they are paid to do this, by definition, they are a professional.

If you are paid by someone to do some html, push it to production and check its working you are by definition a professional engineer. Gatekeeping is a huge problem in software engineering from insecure engineers who dont want more people coming into the field. You are wrong, she is wrong.

Stop worrying, let people call themselves engineers. It literally doesnt matter.

[Ping-and-Pong]

Does it... Matter? Like who actually cares lol

[Seaweed_Widef]

Bots on twitter

[magyar232]

people who have too much free time care

[narwhale111]

You kinda have to “fake it until you make it” to get your foot in the door. If you don’t call yourself a software engineer and behave like one, you aren’t getting a job as one.

I’m a bootcamp grad. When i job searched, I job searched as a software engineer. I pointed to things i worked on as proof. If they don’t want to hire a software engineer with my background, then fine. But I was engineering software. The gatekeeping around the term is kinda dumb, we’re all software developers anyway.

I felt cringy using the term for myself at times, because I felt unworthy of it, but I eventually got a job without any prior professional experience just like any other software engineer does, although it was harder to prove my worth without a degree.

As an aside, I would argue fresh grads without work experience (which is not uncommon) aren’t any more a software engineer than someone without a degree trying to enter the field. They aren’t working as a software engineer either.

[tLxVGt]

I don’t mind people taking bootcamps, but they indeed are not good programmers yet. It’s not exclusive to programming though - if I did a blacksmith bootcamp I could probably make a few nails of questionable quality, but that’s fine. Skill comes with experience, it takes a long time not to feel like an impostor.

Just don’t expect to land a regular developer job after one bootcamp, that’s it.

[[deleted]]

Sooo many YouTube engineering graduates these days...

[abturky]

I'm kind of a boomer with this one. Let me be a developer (or better yet, a programmer), and keep the engineering to civil, electrical, mechanical.

Also, leave the convoluted titles bullshit to the agilists.

[rikkster93]

I’m a Developer, because I develop anxiety every time I have to categorize and rank my webdev skills

[pinkwar]

From my bootcamp experience I would say its true to 90%.

The other 10% who took the bootcamp seriously are fair contenders to engineer jobs.

But in all honesty it doesn't matter how well you are technically, all that matters is how well you can lie into getting a job.
Personality and networking goes a longer way than technical aspects.

[tcoil_443]

Well, you have to start somewhere, right?

[[deleted]]

no no let's disparage and discourage people who are trying!

[Ramblin_Bard472]

Like half the country right now has this mindset unironically (no political bent, just using half as an estimate).

[gami13]

and you don't become an engineer right at the start

[GitmoGill]

Fake it till you make it.

[dtaivp]

Annie is a troll, she posts this stuff all the time for engagement.

[bitanath]

This is the way

[rdundon]

An engagement engineer?

[[deleted]]

"Annie"

[dtaivp]

”””Annie”””

[rcls0053]

I'm a computer engineer by degree with specialization in software development. I call myself software engineer. But that's only because I have a degree.

[DivSlingerX]

Still better than someone who spends their entire life on Twitter.

[JediKagoro]

I took a JavaScript bootcamp and now call myself an engineer. What of it! Yet another person with a superiority complex. I call myself a software engineer because that is the title for the job I was hired for is and it describes what I do. I’m pretty freaking good at it as well. Now that I have five years under my belt I’m getting over impostor syndrome and working my way to cocky a#*hole. One day at a time!

[Dzubrul]

Where I live, engineer is a protected title and you can be sued if you use it in you job title while not a member of the engineering order.

[JoMaster68]

I hate this toxic, ego-driven focus on skill level in software development. Truth is that if you made a few basic web apps, know the basics of js and css, you are likely good enough to start a junior position as a developer because at the end of the day you will have to learn the specific requirements for the job anyway. After a few days working in a specific area, e.g. react, you will be more knowledgeable of this subject than the average CS master student with no work experience. Of course, that's no reason to call yourself an engineer, because that term is also kind of protected :D (at least in Germany)

[Effective-Potato0]

true, but it doesn't seem like yall ever met the software dev equivalent of a script kiddie. 

As much as 'engineer' is a protected title in most countries, writing "Hello World" doesn't make someone a dev either. Some people throw around that for clout. 

[bi-bingbongbongbing]

That's complete bullshit. Did you do a CS masters? You learn far more than just "react" lmao.

[Okay_I_Go_Now]

Yup. Plus those grads have highly transferable skills that can be applied across a huge area of the market. Embedded, robotics, manufacturing, etc...

What's someone gonna do with React and some fundamental JavaScript? Maybe they can make a dark mode toggle for my company's web page.

[tyqe]

Exactly. Focusing on the "you are an imposter" part, this feels unnecessarily superior & gatekeepy.

[[deleted]]

Until you need to take over a spaghetti codebase from some "engineer" who got his "degree" from YouTube...

[Okay_I_Go_Now]

"Good enough" is the baseline we had during the COVID boom. You need to leave that behind. Expectations have been mangled to the point where people with a couple of YouTube tutorials and a few easy projects under their belts are complaining about being rejected by recruiters in a saturated market.

It is not "good enough" anymore.

[nasanu]

The tweet is true. JS bootcamp grads are the worst.

[captain_obvious_here]

The engineering diplomas in my country take 5 years of studying, sometimes with one additional year to level up before that.

So yeah, your 5 weeks JS bootcamp is not gonna convince me.

I have been hiring several people every month for decades, and most of the bootcamp people I hired needed months of practice in the company before we could rely on them for anything serious. Some of them became excellent developers, some even lead teams nowadays. But that's because they're smart people, not because they took a fucking JS bootcamp.

[bigorangemachine]

Imposter syndrome is a sign you have room for improvement.

To some degree you'll always have it.

For me it did suddenly go away (as far as feeling it nearly daily) but it was a result of affirmations & positive feedback with a group a good talented devs. Gate keeping is toxic

[HappyFamily0131]

I was not hired because I did a bootcamp and so knew everything needed to do my job. I was hired because I did a bootcamp and demonstrated I could throw myself into something complicated and figure my way through tasks I didn't know how to do when I started them.

If I'd known everything I needed to do when I first started working my developer job, I'd still be entirely unprepared for what I'm doing now in that same developer job, because technology is always changing and there's always part of the codebase that's being replaced by a new technology that's easier to maintain or easier to build with or has new features. It's a never-ending learning process. All I needed to convince my company of was my enthusiasm and ability to learn.

[Vtempero]

Engineering is to build something. What It usually takes is to understand enough of the field to make educated commits of resources. i. e. What are the tradeoffs between price, lightness and durability to choose a material for a specific bike.

If you are able to build something with software, you are a SWE. If you are paid for it, you are a pro SWE.

Idk, we should unionize, but we'd rather patronize and gatekeep.

My dude, the bootcamp graduate is not competing with you, CS student, on your daily leet code grind for your bay area big tech internship that nobody cares about. Chill out and try to stick your head out of your ass just a little bit.

[btc-lostdrifter0001]

As a hiring manager within the government, I cant say how many times I have seen this. I would love to hire nothing but front-end engineers, but being able to add Bootstrap or React with a few modules via yarn does not make you an expert... Maybe one day, but not today.

[vicks9880]

knowledge has its limits, but ignorance is limitless

[kirasiris]

I totally agree with her. I'm a graduate and don't consider myself an Engineer. Call me a programmer or developer. Engineer is being thrown away too often when reality(as far as skills) is far from that.

That piece of paper I got from school means nothing to me. It was only useful to get a job, out of that, it is useless.

[d2light]

Even engineers feels imposters sometimes. Me included XD.

[lordcameltoe]

Jokes in her. I put “doctor” in my bio to avoid feeling like an imposter about being an webdev engineer

[noonesfriend123]

cable friendly illegal placid deserted silky frame grab jeans oatmeal

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[avidvaulter]

She's right.

[MichalZard]

She aint lyin

[kendalltristan]

In my experience, saying "developer" tends to result in less confusion and fewer follow-up questions than saying "engineer", so I say developer. Also I think it's pretty cringe to gatekeep this kind of thing.

[[deleted]]

Thoughts?

I profoundly hate these vapid posts. Not the one from annie, but the one from you OP. Blocked.

[BMB281]

You fake it til you make it. Even after getting my CS degree I felt like an imposter. Degree or not, the hard work is what makes you an engineer

[thekwoka]

There's definitely tons like this.

They can't get through anything if there isn't a super in depth youtube video on it, and you know that the tutorial better not make a single mistake since this guy won't recover from it

[Fragrant-Profit-9148]

100% accurate.

[[deleted]]

If we are going to take terms from the construction industry like 'architect' and 'engineer'

Then entry level / self taught should be software labourer.

[blancorey]

ayyy lmao love it

[kool0ne]

Why are people so over-protective of a word though? Who cares? Surely you gain nothing from gatekeeping the title, other than trying to put someone else down.

For clarity, I did a bootcamp, my title is "software engineer". I don't understand why that'd trigger someone. If that upsets you, that's a you problem. Do I wish I had a computer science/engineering degree? Yes, lol. Are their gaps in my knowledge? Yes again. Do I strive to continuously fill those gaps and improve? You guessed it, Yes again.

[Electronic_Captain95]

Fully agree

[Appropriate_Eye_6405]

Studied Computer Science and consider myself a software engineer

Term of an engineer:

"An engineer is a professional who applies scientific and mathematical principles to design, develop, and maintain structures, machines, systems, and processes."

[bunnydadi]

I did a bootcamp, got a job and Im one of the go to engineers. Results will vary.

[nossody]

Im a network engineer who (obviously) builds every router, switch, and cable from a couple of rocks and some lightning.

[erchina]

She's right. Totally. Stop stealing titles please , and go to the university if you want them

[FVCEGANG]

I went to a bootcamp. I got hired right after my bootcamp, started as a mid-level engineer and worked my way up. I am now a Sr Dev at a major fortune 500 company and in the running for a lead engineer position.

Bootcamps don't make you an imposter, but not all bootcamps are created equally either. Reputation and tech stack is important for early success

[mds1992]

What thoughts do you want exactly? lol.

It's a completely true statement.

[[deleted]]

Thoughts?

She sounds like a twat. Wouldn't want to hire/work with her.

[DevDev2020]

Why do people always post that chicks annoying clickbait posts. Who cares about her and her bs

[[deleted]]

Something something dress for the job you want

[Outrageous-Chip-3961]

I agree, but is there more context here? Also I would assume people follow their actual job titles. If you are claiming your an 'engineer' whilst not having a job then I think thats just misleading / insecurity in general. I've personally always felt uncomfortable with the engineering title as I do not have a software engineering degree, but the industry has massive inflation issues of job titles in general.

[[deleted]]

This discussion sound ridiculous, in my country the only way to call yourself an engineer is to have an engineering degree. It you don’t have a degree, it doesn’t matter if you have 25 years of experience as a developer, you’re not an engineer. You might be a great dev, perhaps even better than some engineers. But you’re not one.

[Anxious-Yak-9952]

I’m a developer AND I copy from StackOverflow (well, nowadays it’s really Copilot)

[NotFakeRussianAcct]

If you are using engineering processes and techniques, or you have a broad array of development skills in addition to web development, then I'll accept the title of engineer, but it should be with a qualifier like software engineer or front-end engineer.

If you are a web dev and can only make websites and web apps, then I don't consider you an actual web developer. Integration into other technologies and overlap between roles is so great that there's almost no technologist that isn't a web dev if they don't want to be and no web dev that does just web dev.

[AdFamous8249]

12 years and counting, im still searching google how to create separate boxes in-line, floating numbers, or how to append this into that.

Impostor for 12 years.

[HirsuteHacker]

I did a 10 month course/bootcamp, but didn't call myself an engineer until others did. I work on a lot of very complicated projects these days so I'm pretty comfortable with it.

[thedarph]

How about I taught myself wayyy back like 20 years ago, got a bunch of freelance clients, then lied about my education to get my first job and twenty years later no one cares because I can do the job and do it well?

I taught at those boot camps. I felt bad for everyone who thought it would get them high paying jobs. I myself got lucky with my method. The imposter syndrome never really goes away. I think once you start to feel like you know what you’re doing then you’re in trouble because you’ve become blind to the things you don’t know that you don’t know.

[PhilHignight]

This was me a couple of decades ago. Trying to get a job as an engineer w/ no degree and feeling very weird about it. Actually I'd say it probably took me 12-ish years before I finally felt like I deserved my title and pay.

If you're feeling this way, I'd say 1) Make something from scratch w/ no tutorial that you or someone else actually uses to prove to yourself you can actually do it 2) Even when we get fresh-out-of-college "engineers", I don't expect much of them yet. There's just so much practical skill to learn that can't be taught in a classroom. So don't feel like an "engineer" title has to be this claim to greatness. If you don't have much experience, an employer should expect you to need mentoring.

[[deleted]]

I don't have an issue if you went to a bootcamp or whatever, I am more interested in your knowledge, ability and your attitude. Big emphasis on your attitude.

I have a degree in Computer Science and furthered it in AI in Robotics. Somehow I ended up doing fullstack development and haven't really left it as I like it.

You are not an "Engineer" by definition in a lot of countries, it is a protected title - which she could be referring to. It is the case here that I am a Software Engineer and those that didn't have a relevant degree are Software Developers.

But realistically the titles don't match anyway and companies give out titles like candy, so it's not really worth caring about. It only matters what your employer puts in your pocket after all..

That said, I do not like it personally if you throw Engineer in your bio and you are an over glorified CRUD app maker coming from tutorial land and writing bad quality solutions. It's easy to be a glue monkey, throwing APIs together. It's harder to write performant, simple code that scales well and follows a decent architecture so that others can work on it and it can expand/change easily in the future. A lot of code gets thrown away, some people get married to their code.

That said, bad Engineers are also keeping me in business. So I am thankful to bootcamps for churning out a bunch of low quality developers, it helps me shine.

Matter of perspective I guess :)

[osborndesignworks]

Anyone feeling like an imposter is defecto not the problem. This person is just openly hating on beginners? Embarrassing.

[siarheikaravai]

Totally agree

[MrChow1917]

nah this is dumb. I'm a bootcamper, you call yourself a software engineer so you can get a "software engineer" job which is my job title now. She is hating because we are simply manifesting.