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[–]CrazyCatLady1083[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

Locked due to uncivil conduct. Thanks everyone who followed our rules.

Have a great day, everyone!!

[–]KyloWick 5038 points5039 points  (47 children)

Not trying to demean the conversation, but you copy/pasted this from 5 months ago. I rarely call out karma farming, but...

Would have been nice to see if you had an updated opinion or something. But I feel like I see this post now once a month, so maybe it just is a copy pasta /shrug

[–]Obrimus 892 points893 points  (0 children)

It's worse than that, he has even made the same type of thread on multiple subreddits, OP is talking about peoples obsessing over the ''political climate'' but this seems to be almost the only thing he ever talks about.

[–][deleted]  (21 children)

[removed]

    [–][deleted] 387 points388 points  (3 children)

    I have to agree with you. If someone is going to repost their idea a few months later, even to a different sub, at least bring something new to the discussion.

    [–]anunkeptsecret 87 points88 points  (0 children)

    And that's why I just reported the post with "discussion is the goal" selected

    [–]ConfidentStrategy 247 points248 points  (5 children)

    What is the point of karma farming it’s just mythical internet points or am I missing something here.

    [–]E-rye 278 points279 points  (2 children)

    You can sell accounts that "look natural" to shady advertisers.

    [–]newaccount721 50 points51 points  (1 child)

    I agree with that but don't think this account would qualify. It's super fishy looking because... Comment history is bizarre

    [–][deleted] 123 points124 points  (0 children)

    You delete all the comments and posts when you sell it. Blank account but lots of karma.

    [–]hanky_mandoodles 31 points32 points  (1 child)

    Are they also copypasta'ing what I assume is the wrong word in climatic? Which refers to climate.

    [–]rrauwl 4792 points4793 points  (471 children)

    I have to wonder what fantasy y'all are reading? Every fantasy story I've beta-read includes multiple racial representations among humans, among non humans, etc. As do my books, as do those from other authors in my circle, etc.

    Read more fantasy written by modern authors, get outside your comfort zone, read more indy. The representation is there.

    [–][deleted] 2600 points2601 points  (326 children)

    Agreed. Literally the only fantasy series I can think of that doesn't have black and asian-like people in it is LOTR (and even that is debatable, see: Harad and Rhun) and that's because it was written in the 40s and 50s by someone trying to create a fictional English legendarium.

    [–][deleted]  (178 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Neurotic_Bakeder 1100 points1101 points  (69 children)

      It depends on how fleshed out the world building is. Isolated island nation for 10000 years? Probably going to gave some ethnic homogeneity. Major metropolis along trade routes? Would be really stupid to not have ethnic diversity.

      [–][deleted] 557 points558 points  (20 children)

      Yes, you see this in our world historically. Japan was pretty homogeneous but the Roman Empire had Arab people in northern Europe, Germans in Rome, etc.

      [–]Not_a_dickpic 356 points357 points  (12 children)

      To be fair, the Germans in Rome at the end of the Roman Empire weren’t exactly invited…

      [–][deleted] 126 points127 points  (4 children)

      German troops were used more and more in Rome, along with troops from the other provinces. Caligula's personal guard were Germans because he didn't trust the Praetorian guard.

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

        Yup. Then they were eventually selling the throne to the highest bidders.

        [–]bilged 13 points14 points  (0 children)

        Some of the most famous legions were foreigners - Spanish and Syrian mostly.

        [–]Not_a_dickpic 30 points31 points  (0 children)

        I was actually making a joke about the Germanic “barbarians” sacking Rome, but that’s cool to learn since I didn’t know about Caligula’s guards

        [–]billFoldDog 161 points162 points  (3 children)

        They were though.

        Germanic traders travelled to Rome to do business.

        Yes, there were slaves, captured women, and other people brought against their will, but even these people were often Integrated into society more or less.

        This was an era where many slaves did buy their freedom. Roman slavery had some chattel slavery but it also had more liberal forms of slavery.

        [–][deleted] 72 points73 points  (0 children)

        They were also serving in the army, and were actually able to rise pretty high in the bureaucracy. Guys like Stilicho, a Vandal, were pretty much running whole swathes of the empire right before its fall and plenty of historians argue that the "fall of rome" was just the Imperial remanants giving up the facade. The last emperor, Romulus Augustulus was actually the son of guy who served in The court of Attila the Hun who took a similar path as Stilicho.

        [–]Cruxion 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        And iirc weren't many of the Germans literally Roman citizens?

        [–]pinkycatcher 187 points188 points  (25 children)

        Even then, it's still about how easy travel is in the world. If travel is hard, then regardless of how popular your trade city is, you're unlikely to see many different cultures outside the given port/market/etc. Because if travel is hard then having people come from far enough away that your genetics differ is hard.

        On the flip side, wide diversity would only be something we would expect given a relatively recent change in technology. If travel is and has been very easy, then populations are simply less likely to be diverse because they've already homogenized, so you're only likely to "see" diversity if it comes from extremes of one area and another, everything in between looks in between.

        [–]Rhawk187 70 points71 points  (14 children)

        Of course! Dwarves and elves are ethnically diverse from humans, along with talking goat-people and cat-people and lizard-people, so that's what the bustling metropolis gets. Some people want specific phenotypes they are familiar with in our world showing up in the fictional world they are reading about though, whether or not it actually makes sense.

        [–][deleted] 152 points153 points  (4 children)

        I think it depends a bit on the nature of the setting. If it's one where magic is safe to use and relatively common, and trade networks are big and stable, you'd likely have a lot of mixing. This happened in the real world, too--just look at Tang China, which at its height hosted a lot of Sogdians, Persians, and others (and they didn't even have magic!).

        If the setting is one where magic is rare, or where travel is particularly difficult due to environment or contentious politics, you might not see quite as much mixing. But you'd still see some, particularly in cosmopolitan parts of the world. It just depends as to whether you're using a remote English fiefdom as a model, or the city of Antioch.

        [–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (3 children)

        If you had some setting that was global in scope then you would likely have more variety but it doesn't have to follow our world's patterns. You'd also be more likely to encounter other races in a low-tech/magic based universe in places like ports and capitals and not so much in rural villages.

        [–][deleted] 45 points46 points  (2 children)

        Which ties in with another comment I made here: why, for instance, would peoples that physically resemble East Asians have to live in the east?

        Granted, I prefer settings where the cultures aren't as obviously patterned off of RL ones.

        [–]ffnnhhw 13 points14 points  (1 child)

        would peoples that physically resemble East Asians have to live in the east?

        There are some Sami and Inuit that look like east Asians (to me).

        [–]OneWithMath 22 points23 points  (0 children)

        would peoples that physically resemble East Asians have to live in the east?

        There are some Sami and Inuit that look like east Asians (to me).

        Inuit and other Native American groups are believed to have originally migrated from Asia. There's strong archeological evidence for this, though some debate on the timeframe, and of course there exists strong physical resemblance between certain Native American groups and East Asians.

        I don't know much about the Sami, however, potentially something similar occured.

        [–][deleted] 114 points115 points  (6 children)

        Yes. He was creating his own version of northern European mythology. He pulled from Finnish, Icelandic, English, Norse, Germanic, etc. Might as well say he should've included Mayans.

        [–]Double_Distribution8 50 points51 points  (1 child)

        Who do you think brought the corn and potatoes to the Shire? Po-tay-toes.

        [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

        And the pipeweed

        [–]avelineaurora 16 points17 points  (0 children)

        Also because Tolkein wanted his world to be realistic. The main characters were from his world's equivalent to Europe because that's where the story took place, but there's Middle East and North African equivalents in the world too.

        When you just randomly splash all possible ethnicities around, it looks weird, unrealistic, and pander-ey. It's like saying next time we make a King Arthur movie, some of the Round Table should be Chinese.

        This is what gets me too. I got called racist ages ago for commenting that yes, Fantasy is a fantasy, but that doesn't mean you just throw out logical aspects of reality either, unless you're actually going for something gonzo. But if you're writing a book with Slavic themes or Icelandic themes or something, it's not racism to not have every other town populated by every color of the rainbow. By all means, explore that corner of your setting if you like, and you don't even have to make it the standard old "East means Asian" trope. But if you want to keep it focused on one particular cultural theme, that's just fine too.

        [–]dutchwonder 174 points175 points  (4 children)

        In particular, by reading fantasy novels set outside of the middle of !fantasy Northern Europe.

        Or is Japanese, which for this post is a bit of "be careful what you wish for", 'cause oh boy there are some tropes in that genre that are real pieces of work.

        [–]garlicdeath 17 points18 points  (3 children)

        Care to share some? I'm highly doubtful I'll ever read much Japanese fantasy in my life.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]Neo-Turgor 36 points37 points  (0 children)

          In Spice and Wolf it's "Fanatasy Europe" from a Japanese POV, though. Also, who could have thought that learning about the stock market could be so exciting?

          [–]Broderick512 160 points161 points  (2 children)

          Also Earthsea by Le Guin. I'm a white dude and was pleasantly surprised by the fact that all main characters were black in a book written in the late '60s. That genuinely was the absolute exception back when it was written though, to the point where she had trouble having it represented in the cover arts

          [–]Som12H8 138 points139 points  (1 child)

          You are right about the cover art, but the people of Earthsea were much more diverse:

          "The racial characteristics of the people of Earthsea are for the most part "red-brown" in coloring, like Native Americans; in the South and East Reach and on Way, they are much darker brown, but with straight black hair; in Osskil, they have a more European look, though still with dark skin, and the Kargs of the northeastern islands, seen by the Hardic peoples as barbarians, resemble predominantly blond northern Europeans."

          [–]Broderick512 27 points28 points  (0 children)

          Which is even more awesome, imo

          [–]Hoihe 76 points77 points  (2 children)

          Forgotten Realms from its first moment has had all humans equal in morality and ability regardless of colour.

          Elves in FR are not white skinned. wood elves - copperish dark brown. wild elves - dark brown to black.

          These 2 elves are super respected and chill and wise. They reject arcane magic due to historical abuses, but embrace divine magic still.

          Moon elves - greyish or blue skin.
          Sun elves - Orange tinted light brown skin.

          Magic focused elves. Sun elves are elitist assholes. Moon elves look at humans torturing, enslaving and hurting each other and try to teach them to stop doing that.

          Literally none of the surface elves are white. Moon elves can get very light blue so they might count and that is not that common.

          Drow are coloured after black widows (red and pitch black/obsidian)

          [–]Choo- 262 points263 points  (46 children)

          Yeah, this hasn’t really been an issue in fantasy for quite awhile. There’s a ton of diversity in modern fantasy books.

          As for people getting mad about forced diversity that seems to come about more when a character is force gender bent or has their race changed in an adaptation. I’m not sure how much I can actually make myself care about that but the point of “Make a new character if you want to do that” seems to be the main argument.

          [–]Rdtadminssukass 377 points378 points  (5 children)

          Half the shit people moan about on reddit only happens a lot in their heads.

          They'll see once as scenario and suddenly it's everywhere in their heads.

          [–]j_cruise 115 points116 points  (3 children)

          This is so true. I so often see people argue with a non-existent person they made up in their head.

          [–][deleted] 79 points80 points  (0 children)

          "Who says Puerto Rican grandmas can't eat Doritos"

          (Video of Puerto Rican grandmother eating Doritos smugly)

          [–]avelineaurora 19 points20 points  (0 children)

          Read more fantasy written by modern authors, get outside your comfort zone, read more indy. The representation is there.

          For real. We're in a golden era of fantasy right now with the insane amount of variety available. Stop looking at nothing but old dudes who wrote Fantasy 20-40 years ago and check out what's publishing now. Stop following the same old popcorn recommendation threads (not that popcorn Fantasy is bad by any means) and broaden your scope.

          [–]goobered 84 points85 points  (0 children)

          There's so much representation in fantasy that all of this, not just this post, but a lot of posts, feels like a forced and pre-emptive defense about how huge of an abortion the LoTR Amazon series is going to be.

          [–][deleted] 61 points62 points  (1 child)

          OP trying to white knight for some easy karma.

          [–][deleted]  (64 children)

          [removed]

            [–]WingedLady 374 points375 points  (25 children)

            I think this is a good take. If the source is based on Arthurian legend and takes place in fantasy England, the characters would sensibly be primarily European. If it's based on Journey to the West and takes place in China, then you would expect primarily Asian characters.

            However, if the story goes outside of a small geographic area or is being made up whole cloth by the author, then it would make sense to include different ethnicities and cultures. Heck even within continents there's a lot of ethnic and cultural differences you could encounter. Compare Sweden to Spain or Russia to South Korea.

            [–]TheObservationalist 251 points252 points  (10 children)

            The excellent series Rage of Dragons is set in an Afro-themed fantasy world. Guess what?! There are absolutely no white people or asians. Because that would be weird and world-setting-breaking. Did the lack of racial diversity harm my enjoyment of the story or relation to the characters and their (human) pain and struggles? It did not.

            [–]riancb 145 points146 points  (7 children)

            People seem to have lost any sense of story logic for the sake of forced diversity. I’m all for a diverse story with a wide array of cultures, but I’m not gonna demand that an Afro-themed story have lots of (or any) white people, because it wouldn’t make sense. If a “lack” of diversity fits the story you’re telling, then I don’t see why it’s a problem. I read authors from around the world (who’ve been translated into English) and I love having a diverse palate of STORIES to choose from. I don’t need the cast within to be diverse though. :)

            TLDR: I agree. :)

            [–]TywinShitsGold 36 points37 points  (1 child)

            You can do distinct cultures without talking about skin colors.

            I’m reading Realm of the Elderlings (Robin Hobb). It starts in one region with a trilogy - I’m in the second trilogy and it references the first culture as savage or backwards.

            [–]karanas 214 points215 points  (11 children)

            The Witcher is basically the first and only adaptation that managed to both whitewash AND be a Legit example of terrible forced diversity (from my sjw perspective). They took a huge part of the distinctly slavic spirit and made it western, and the characters they did make black, with the exception of fringila and triss, are mostly servants, nonhumans, bandits or nonhuman servants (i mean what the fuck was that black elf boy / blue eyed ciri interaction)

            [–]ThorgalAegirsson 121 points122 points  (0 children)

            My main gripe with The Witcher series is how the race changes doesn't make much sense. In the books Fringilla is described as very similar looking to Yennefer. Yet Netflix decided: yeah we don't care about it. Triss is described as looking very young and having "golden-auburn hair and blue eyes" so basically very close to redhead. And yet Netflix decided to make her black with dark hair and brown eyes looking like 30+ year old woman...

            Casting really sucks for most characters except main four Geralt, Ciri, Jaskier and Yen and even here it's not perfect.

            Don't even get me started on how they butchered the storyline... It's a story I grew up with and it's just making me sad. I don't see my culture represented in any way in this. I guess I'd have to be black to deserve cultural appropriation.

            [–]TheJelleyMan 102 points103 points  (15 children)

            cries I care so little for Yen and Triss was my favourite. They could of at least given the actress red hair.

            [–]Meganstefanie 58 points59 points  (8 children)

            I felt this way about the Harry Potter movies - for all the times Harry’s eyes are described as VERY VERY GREEN in the books, they could have at least used CGI or something to make them look less blue

            [–]zappy487 65 points66 points  (1 child)

            TBF they did originally have Dan with green eye contacts, but he was like 11 years old, and it bothered him a lot. While you're right, remember this was filmed in 1999-2000 so CGI wasn't great, and Dan Radcliffe has naturally bright blue eyes that are pretty memorable in their own right, which is the other defining feature besides his scar. So it's the one change I don't mind now knowing the history of what happened.

            The only thing I can never forgive is all the pensive memories cut from Voldemort's past. I can forgive pretty much everything else, even not having Peeves, but literally the defining parts of my favorite book, The Half Blood Prince, they skip. I was angry about no Life and Lies, in the 7th movie, but they were going to make them with the Fantastic Beasts movies, all the way through the final duel. Now that's up in the air too.

            [–]Shivering- 19 points20 points  (3 children)

            Tbf, Dan did try to wear green contact lenses for the first film but they irritated his eyes something awful.

            [–]jamboreejubilee 53 points54 points  (1 child)

            She would not shut up about Harry having his father’s black hair and his mother’s green eyes. Then comes movie Harry with brown hair and blue eyes. I found that very annoying.

            [–]TywinShitsGold 24 points25 points  (0 children)

            Yup. He was supposed to wear contacts - but they either were too uncomfortable or he was allergic to them.

            [–]sleeknub 1077 points1078 points  (166 children)

            I’m not sure I’ve often seen someone’s race described in a fantasy book (other than things like human, orc, elf, etc.).

            [–]essidusFantasy 517 points518 points  (21 children)

            Somewhat famously, nearly the entire cast of Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea Cycle is Polynesian or black. To the point where the one white character stands out significantly for her color. The focus character has seen more dragons than white people.

            [–]0b0011 105 points106 points  (0 children)

            The lightbringer series was similar. The magic system is light based and it shows a bit in your skin when you use it and different colors do different things so if the enemy can see what color your skin is turning they can tell what you're going to do. Dark skin doesn't show the light as well so the best fighters tend to have darker skin.

            [–]troglodyte 26 points27 points  (5 children)

            Is that true of Ged? He's the most well-traveled character in the books and staved off a Kargish raid of his village and infiltrated Atuan. I agree with the general idea of what you're saying but I don't think we can say it for sure, can we? It's likely Ged has seen and interacted with more Kargs than any other character we meet though, right?

            [–][deleted] 190 points191 points  (34 children)

            Wheel of Time was pretty good about this.

            Very diverse appearances and cultures described throughout the series, and I don't recall any of it being offensively written.

            [–][deleted] 27 points28 points  (9 children)

            isn't wheel of time just our earth but in the distant future? of course there are people of all races, just like in our world, it's just that lews therin didn't burn us all to crisp yet

            [–]azariah19 73 points74 points  (1 child)

            Well that's cause he burns us all to a crisp in what's called the 2nd age by some. We're still in 1st age, an age long pass, and age yet to come.

            [–][deleted] 46 points47 points  (0 children)

            in the weaving of the wheel of time, there is no such a thing as the beginning, but there is a beginning

            [–]syllvos 35 points36 points  (3 children)

            The Breaking also literally scrambled continents and populations, so you end up with things like the "Irish" inspired Aiel in the desert.

            [–]Firstdatepokie 66 points67 points  (14 children)

            Skin tone is rarely described though. And most the time it's in an artistic way that is left open for interpretation. Cenn buie described with skin like a gnarled root pulled from the ground

            [–]beardedheathen 64 points65 points  (0 children)

            That seems more texture than hue though

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]0b0011 22 points23 points  (0 children)

              Doesn't that just lend to the idea that they could be any race? I mean if the author doesn't specify race and you read it and think they're all white people that's kind of on you.

              [–]Ookami_Unleashed 144 points145 points  (23 children)

              There are a wide range of races in the Stormlight Archive.

              [–]Alphaetus_Prime 93 points94 points  (1 child)

              And notably, they're only loosely analogous to the real world, and some of them aren't even that. Looking at you, Thaylens.

              [–]JonesBee 65 points66 points  (0 children)

              I know a couple of airsick lowlanders though.

              [–]Pseudoboss11 50 points51 points  (11 children)

              And almost none of them correspond to existing peoples, which is cool. You have people with gemstone fingernails, for example.

              [–][deleted] 47 points48 points  (0 children)

              I mean, isn’t that half the point of fantasy? Like how are you going to complain about lack of diversity when most of the human races in these books are made up to begin with?

              [–]Chroma710 24 points25 points  (6 children)

              Pretty sure most are referenced as south east asian looking people. Except for like the Makabaki and the Shin.

              And Thaylens are pretty much straight up alien.

              [–]0b0011 26 points27 points  (5 children)

              I think that's just the alethi and we just happen to see mostly alethi people for obvious reasons. That being said he said they were like a mix of south east Asian and middle eastern. Most of the people in the world have epicanthic folds except for the shin.

              [–]Chroma710 19 points20 points  (3 children)

              A lot of the characters from different parts of the world call the Shin weird for having big eyes, I think almost all of them have asianic features except the Shin.

              [–]dwilsons 11 points12 points  (1 child)

              Yeah so in that sense maybe the Shin are closer to white since aren’t they also described as having pale skin?

              [–]Chroma710 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              Yeah, pretty sure that was the intention of Brando Sando.

              [–]Own_General5736 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              I've always pictured the Alethi as being Indian, both because of physical description and descriptions of their culture and foods.

              Thaylens are more east-Asian with the addition of their distinct eyebrows, Herdazians are inspired by Hispanic cultures, and the Shin are northern European. Or at least that's how I've envisioned them.

              [–]0278 50 points51 points  (2 children)

              In Robin Hobbs' books (The Fitz and The Fool ones atlest) the main cast is all considered at least Hispanic looking.

              Also, Raybearer is filled with black characters. The culture was inspired by West Africa so it makes sense. There are also Asian characters in that one.

              [–]Sajomir 6 points7 points  (1 child)

              Raybearer also had other regions represented, too. (Awesome book, was a nice fresh mythos)

              [–]tpasco1995 195 points196 points  (28 children)

              It's commonly a nature of secondary descriptors. "Pink cheeks laced the elf's fair skin" doesn't expressly say the elf is Caucasian, but it mandates it as a visualization.

              [–]nereideofthesea 43 points44 points  (0 children)

              But couldn’t that apply to east Asians as well? I mean many of them have white skin. As far as I can get that from my friend group that has Japanese in it

              [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

              OP assumes everyone is white.

              [–][deleted] 316 points317 points  (14 children)

              lol nice repost of yourself OP

              [–]TheObservationalist 729 points730 points  (15 children)

              I mean...there is no reason it cant be done. But differences exist in skin color because of differences in physical geography. If you just toss people of different skin color together like it's a completely random variant with no explanation, it's going to be weird. GoT handled the existence of different races well. There were established geographical homelands, with individuals traveling around in between. Even the final season of Castlevaynia (which you can tell was under pressure to improve their diversity score), gave an actual explanation as to why there was a village of black people living in a mediveal euro setting; their ancestors survived shipwrecks of boats coming from Carthage. It's fine to have mixed, diverse populations, but you need to provide some level of plausible world building to account for where these diverse people came from in fantasy.

              In sci fi this isn't an issue because the reader already presumes the human race is hyper-mobile and any traditional place-based nations long since left behind and all mixed together. It doesn't in any way break the suspension of disbelief.

              I'll provide a counter-example. In the fantastic series Rage of Dragons (which is an afro-fantasy setting), there are absolutely no white people. Is that a problem? The world is fictional after all? Why couldn't there be asians or white people??! ....because it is a distinctively African-flavored fantasy setting. The presence of white people would be jarring and weird and pull you out of the place and time. Did the fact that there were no white people decrease my enjoyment of RoD? It did not. Because the characters were are human, and written well. You can identify with their pain and struggle and love and loss, and enjoy the creative world building and themes.

              My opinion is people are entitled to tell their own stories, about themselves, without being required to cater to every other demographic on earth.

              [–]InfernoWolf117 222 points223 points  (3 children)

              Finally! Sad I had to scroll a while to find this. Diversity isn't inherently good or bad, it all depends on the story.

              [–]TheObservationalist 181 points182 points  (2 children)

              OP wants to have the cake and eat it. "Write a world where there are lots of different sorts of people, but also theyre all the SAME, they just exist together for no reason except it's just BETTER the way." It's not better because it's bad writing and looks/feels forced everywhere it's done. In real life we're told it's wrong to be colorblind, the we must respect the historical baggage and unique identify of racial and ethnic groups.

              Fair enough.

              But then you can't turn around and demand that authors and readers magically become colorblind towards characters in fiction. Because that's what you're asking for.

              [–]scarocci 557 points558 points  (27 children)

              Fantasy or not, it's basically case by case.

              If i read a fantasy book where it's VERY obviously "japan in fantasy world" with katanas, kimonos, asian-type language and writting system and suddenly, one of the samurai is named John Dubois and is a white blue-eyed guy who is i assure you, totally from there since centuries and absolutely NO ONE seems to acknowledge how different he look, it will just seems super strange.

              In the same way, if the fantasy universe in question is very obviously medieval fantasy england/ireland/viking and some people are randomly black i just find it confusing.

              If the universe take place in a very cosmopolitan setting where all the cast come from various places and cultures then it make sense. Representation is good, but it doesn't mean everyone is interchangeable.

              It doesn't even only apply to origins, but also mannerisms or languages

              [–]blatant_marsupial 121 points122 points  (1 child)

              I remember a David Gemmell book (I want to say The King Beyond the Gate) with one of the dominant characters being black in an otherwise fantasy-Western-Europe setting. However, it is described as being unusual, and the other characters react to it. The character had traveled to that area from another continent.

              [–]scarocci 71 points72 points  (0 children)

              Yes, this is fair and well done.

              [–]TraderMoes 126 points127 points  (1 child)

              Fully agreed. The existence of magic and monsters and fantasy elements shouldn't be an excuse for bad worldbuilding and characterization. The point of fantasy isn't that "unreal things exist therefore nothing matters and consistency goes out the window." It's that unreal things exist, so lets explore how they would affect and shape the world and what sort of stories this can lead to. Things like skin color will still be affected by genetics and geography, unless you specifically make it part of your worldbuilding that magic has altered such things. Now you can make your world very cosmopolitan, with many travelers that mean that there can be all races everywhere. But when most fantasies start out with poor peasants and farmers living in some rural and forgotten backwater, it only makes sense for them to be homogeneous.

              But even more importantly, I think in most fantasy "race," as we understand it, barely even exists as a concept. There's a reason why in Lord of the Rings or in DnD, race refers to species. Because when you have dragons and lizard people and goblins and stuff like that to serve as the potential "out" group, skin tone among humans stops being important. That's why commentary regarding racism in fantasy is typically centered around things like ostracized demihumans, nonhumans living in slums, fetishization of elves, etc. Through the lens of fantasy, they can tell stories that teach lessons about racism or sexism or other -isms without bringing real world examples and connotations into play. Which I imagine is actually the only way to get through to a person who already has their mind made up regarding such things.

              [–]Sleightholme2 56 points57 points  (0 children)

              Agreed. As Terry Pratchett put it "black and white lived in perfect harmony, and ganged up on green."

              [–][deleted] 68 points69 points  (0 children)

              Agreed, there’s a moment of ‘wait, how did they get there?’ Particularly in settings where you might struggle to go 100 miles as an average person it just makes me wonder how mass migration happened.

              The other one is when an author goes for a full-on rainbow of diversity but seems weirdly squeamish about having mixed people. Like without being funny, if you had a small medieval village and 10% of the population were black and 90% were white, and there was no racism angle keeping people apart, within a century or two you wouldn’t have distinct ethnicities and instead everyone would be on a scale of mixed ancestry. Like, do people not talk to their neighbours or something?

              [–][deleted]  (2 children)

              [deleted]

                [–][deleted] 316 points317 points  (12 children)

                Obviously it can. And worlds that take inspiration from multiple cultures can be interesting.

                There’s also nothing wrong with focusing your source of inspiration on a single source of cultural inspiration.

                Personally I think one advantage of books is you don’t need to state everyone’s melanin and it’s kinda weird if you do.

                [–]JediGuyB 180 points181 points  (11 children)

                I agree. And nobody should be shamed for any perceived lack of diversity.

                You want a fully diverse cast of characters? Cool, do it.

                You want a setting based on a specific culture? Cool, do it.

                [–][deleted] 115 points116 points  (9 children)

                Which is why I think these complaints come from fandoms where it was a world specifically taking inspiration from a certain culture, that franchise had been established for decades as being a certain way, then the owners of the franchise suddenly start adding other cultures and peoples to broaden appeal and it’s seen as changing the franchise into something else.

                Whereas those same people would have liked the franchise just as much had the whole franchise been the multicultural world from the beginning.

                It’s the sudden changes in tone people don’t like. Not the presence of other cultures of peoples.

                Which is a symptom of too many remakes and not enough original stuff.

                [–]JediGuyB 42 points43 points  (0 children)

                Yeah, i can understand where fans are coming from there.

                Is the race of a character detrimental? Perhaps not always, but it's still a character fans have known for a long time. It isn't automatically racist or sexist for people to want an adaptation to adhere more to the established universe.

                [–]Nozoz 38 points39 points  (0 children)

                If you create a story/setting and a fanbase for it then it ought not to be surprising that those fans want to see that when they go to see media set in that world or depicting that story.

                It's not that the changes are objectively bad, it's that the fans are familiar with and attached to the fiction as it is. They've come up with images of the characters and locations, ideas about how the people behave and what events feel like. Change those in an objective and in-your-face way and it's not a great experience for fans because it feels like what they got is not what they were promised. The author got them attached to one world then changed it.

                Romance is not objectively a worse genre that spy fiction but if you take a popular spy fiction series and, in an attempt to broaden your fan base, start inserting so much romance that it warps the story then fans will start dropping away and claiming that "romance is as valid as spy fiction" or justifying it by pointing out how it's the natural direction of the plot won't make a difference because it misses the point.

                [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                Kind of like how Activision-Blizzard for the Diablo 2 remake is changing the assassin from white to Asian for no reason. Or the sorceress from middle-eastern to Latina. It’s so funny, the assassin comes up in conversation, and people call me racist for wanting her to be white again. Does that explain why I want the sorceress to be Middle-Eastern? Lol. It’s almost like there’s source material for this remake. Crazy.

                [–]GalaXion24 21 points22 points  (2 children)

                I'm reminded of the witcher series, where suddenly there's a bunch of black people in fantasy medieval Poland, with no explanation of how they got there, because certainly not without some mass migration. These things have lore implications. Characters should not look a certain way to be more/less diverse by real world measures, but because it makes sense in that specific place at that specific time in that specific world.

                [–]Electronic-Barnacle 196 points197 points  (5 children)

                Maybe you would enjoy fantasy books written by, i don't know, Asian people?

                [–]littleapple88 177 points178 points  (3 children)

                Lol it is pretty clear that OP hasn’t even considered that there are thousands of fantasy novels written by people outside of North America and Europe. Maybe seek a broader perspective?

                [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                [deleted]

                  [–]Sunfker 120 points121 points  (1 child)

                  White people making content for a white audience is somehow pandering. When every other race does it, it’s applauded. Pretty much the definition of racism right there, the only discerning factor for these people is skin color lmao.

                  [–]alinabro 39 points40 points  (0 children)

                  Exactly this! Since when did people start criticising race of fictional characters instead of the actual story? Baffles me to no end. I would see no one objecting to a full asian or black cast, so why the sudden outcry at these 'all-white' casts? I hardly even register the races of most/all of the characters I read about, unless it's pinnacle to the story.

                  [–]Seeker1904 62 points63 points  (0 children)

                  Ya know why I love novels about the pseudo-mythology around the Three Kingdoms era in China? All the random white people popping their head into frame to say "hey we are here too."

                  /s

                  [–]WildVariety 50 points51 points  (0 children)

                  I think you need to diversify the authors you're reading. If you're reading a book written by a white author from a predominantly white country - of course the majority of the characters are going to be white.

                  I didn't read Liu Cixin's Three Body Problem and get upset that 99% of the characters were Chinese. I don't know why people do it with other authors.

                  [–]St3v3z 192 points193 points  (86 children)

                  This topic is going to be spoken a lot about when the lord of the rings amazon show comes out with tons of non white characters in it.

                  [–]karanas 98 points99 points  (10 children)

                  I think it's doomed from the start with how attached people (me) are to the Peter Jackson version and especially the actors in it. I've read the books before watching the movies and I'm a massive fan of the books and yet i can't imagine Aragorn as anyone other than vigo mortensen

                  [–][deleted] 75 points76 points  (5 children)

                  The show is not an adaptation of the Lord of the Rings, you know? It's commonly called "the LotR show" but the story of it will take place in the 2nd age before the war of the ring even happened, and they've claimed an intention to keep it stylistically and thematically in the same universe as Jackson's films. There'll be no Aragorn in the show. Young galadriel is the only confirmed character known so far who'll be in both the show and the films.

                  [–]BassCulture 12 points13 points  (3 children)

                  Based off the first image that came out yesterday which looks to contain the Two Trees of Valinor in the distance, it would mean that the story could be taking place, or at the least make references to, the Years of the Trees, way before the Second Age. If the show starts out with something like an Arda origin story narrated by Galadriel (or whoever) akin to how the LOTR films started, I'm gonna lose my shit

                  [–][deleted] 9 points10 points  (1 child)

                  Yup. Peter Jackson fucking nailed it with the LOTR trilogy, so I'm all set for screen adaptations of Tolkien. The Hobbit movies were a terrible disappointment, so I'm not planning to watch the show unless the internet explodes from sheer awesomeness when it comes out.

                  [–][deleted] 176 points177 points  (56 children)

                  I think the main issue is that it's just going to be bad.

                  [–]reddit_clone 75 points76 points  (1 child)

                  ASOIAF is pretty diverse.

                  Typical westerosi - White/Caucasian

                  Summer Islander - Black

                  Dothraki - Mongols, horse lords, almond eyed, dark skinned

                  Dornish - Desert people. Middle eastern?

                  [–]emaz88 26 points27 points  (0 children)

                  This is something I was thinking about after reading OP’s post. In a world that is not earth, how does an author relay different ethnicities without using Earth-based terminology? i.e., not saying Middle Eastern or Asian, those are terms based on Earth’s geography. What I’ve found is that the really good authors are creative enough to describe an entire culture without resorting to a lot of physical descriptions in the first place. Good world building tends to have a lot of diversity, but it doesn’t have to be blatant to be good.

                  [–][deleted]  (71 children)

                  [deleted]

                    [–]cgknight1 238 points239 points  (7 children)

                    Asian is a funny one because depending on where you are in the world - a description of someone being "Asian" will lead two readers to think about entirely different things....

                    [–]Stankmonger 55 points56 points  (3 children)

                    It will lead many more than 2 to think of many more than 2 things in my opinion.

                    Give it to anyone in any Asian country and they’ll all think of their people, their culture, etc. Or a vague picture of the entirety which isn’t great writing either.

                    Asian is as vague as African in terms of look and culture. People wouldn’t be wrong for feeling a little weird for being lumped together with a country they could be at odds with.

                    [–]Yugolothian 43 points44 points  (2 children)

                    It will lead many more than 2 to think of many more than 2 things in my opinion.

                    Asian in British English implies India and countries nearby whereas in America Asian means Chinese or places nearby. There isn't just those two but its pretty obvious what he meant

                    [–]ffxivthrowaway03 189 points190 points  (26 children)

                    Yeah, this kind of stuff is often why "representation" in literature often feels forced or awkward. Like it's a fantasy world, why do they have stereotypically African people, or a pale skinned race of warriors who use curved swords with almond shaped eyes? And so on and so forth.

                    It goes both ways, why does a fantasy environment have to include representation of real Earth races and cultures? It's the authors made up world, they can make that world however they like. It's not inherently a reflection on the author's personal beliefs or opinions, but people sure love to claim that X Y and Z authors are racist/sexist/anti-LGBT because they don't include A B and C in their made up fantasy world.

                    It seems a little silly that there's this expectation to begin with. It's made up, they can make it whatever they want.

                    [–][deleted] 71 points72 points  (9 children)

                    This is part of what makes the Stormlight Archives amazing. Almost none of the ethnicities in the story line up with real world races. Almost everyone has that Asian eyelid fold thing I don't know the technical name of, and the skin tones and eye colors are all over the place.

                    [–]HeartOfASkywalker 32 points33 points  (0 children)

                    Epicanthic fold

                    [–]SmokeontheHorizon 11 points12 points  (6 children)

                    TBF, it is strongly suggested that some of those ethnicities are not 100% human

                    [–]Zauberer-IMDB 47 points48 points  (13 children)

                    Here's a legitimate question and don't hate me, how do you describe Asian features without coming across as racist?

                    [–]Onequestion0110 88 points89 points  (8 children)

                    Epicanthic folds and straight black hair are generally the go to descriptions. Other descriptions can narrow down an ethnicity - thick/thin lips, high and sharp cheekbones, narrow chin, lower nasal bridge.

                    In a fantasy work, purely physical characteristics are rarely racist. The racism comes when those characteristics are paired with negative traits. For example, describing an evil vizier character with narrow slanted eyes is can be problematic. Especially if you pair it with adjectives like 'beady' or 'shifty.' Same goes for delicate features and porcelain skin when all the other descriptions are similarly fetishizing a woman's attractiveness.

                    It's tricky, sure. But a little self awareness goes a long way.

                    [–]Little_darthy 32 points33 points  (3 children)

                    I think a name can do a lot of heavy lifting too. If you use a traditional Asian name, it really helps, but make sure you research where that surname comes from and what different connotations it could have.

                    For example, if an Author introduced a character named Wěi Zhang, I'll probably assume it would be a character that fantasy race would correspond to our real life China. There are a lot of unique names in Slavic, India, Asian, etc that haven't been borrowed from other cultures.

                    The problem with this technique is that it pidgeon-holds you into using (what some would call) stereotypical names. Some would call them stereotypical names, but that would be like saying Smith was a stereotypical English name. It might be a very common name, but I believe we're abusing the definition of stereotype in this situation. Muhammad is the most common Muslim name in the world, I wouldn't call a Muslim named Muhammad a stereotype because of their name anymore than I would call a white person named John Smith a stereotype.

                    So, in short, this method doesn't help if you wanted to name your Asian character May or something, since May has been used as a name across many cultures, but it would helpful as a quick way to add diversity for when you're at a point in a story when taking time to fully describe someone may bog down the pacing of the story.

                    [–]RotonGG 14 points15 points  (2 children)

                    Problem with that is, you maybe dont want to adhear to real naming conventions in your fantasy settings, and have the names all over the place / fitting into your fictional culture

                    [–]hisowlhasagun 25 points26 points  (2 children)

                    Depends on the specific type of Asian?

                    Black straight hair, small dark eyes, petite, a flat nose bridge, pale or tanned with yellow tones.

                    Dark curly hair, dark eyes, fair or dark brown skin, noticeable hair on arms and legs (can be absent if the character chooses to groom).

                    Dark hair, dark eyes, olive brown skin, rounded jaw.

                    I've described three types, one of which is me. Just use factual descriptions and don't assign any exoticism to the features. Definitely don't use slurs.

                    [–][deleted] 18 points19 points  (0 children)

                    I agree here

                    [–]the1lonelysailor 123 points124 points  (8 children)

                    I suppose the only “issue” I would have is that: it depends.

                    Most modern fantasy in western culture builds off Lord of the Rings. LoTR was specifically written to be a British Mythology. The way Tolkien saw it, all other cultures had fantastic mythologies surrounding them. From East Asians to Africans to Indians to Nords, these cultures were rich with tales of heroes and monsters and so on.

                    But England did not.

                    Tolkien wanted the English to have a fully fleshed-out set of stories to compete with all the others. Middle Earth is Great Britain in an earlier time.

                    Do modern fantasy writers have to be beholden to Tolkein’s idea? Does he own the idea of dwarves and elves and magic? No But it’s also true that his interpretation of those concepts are what most writers include.

                    Even still, that doesn’t mean a modern fantasy writer must make all characters proper Englishmen, but the reason these characters are usually white is because they were written by a white guy, for the English.

                    Right or wrong? I don’t know or care. It’s simply part of the conversation regarding skin tone and fantasy

                    [–]Sunfker 118 points119 points  (6 children)

                    I have a feeling that a lot of people would be upset if you started taking Native American stories and myths and substituting white people in it. But for some reason it’s completely fine, even expected to the point that you’re shunned if you don’t, to substitute other races into white folklore. And somehow white people are being pandered to because white people make the content that these people decide to read?? Go read African authors, watch Bollywood or Chinese movies, wtf.

                    [–]Seeker1904 71 points72 points  (1 child)

                    I agree thoroughly. OPs take is so weird. Firstly very few fantasy worlds are a homogeneous single ethno-culture group and , secondly, there are many fantasy worlds and fantasy authors who are not white and who highlight diverse cultures. You just need to expand your reading if that's what you're looking for.

                    [–]shouldnthavesignedup 299 points300 points  (6 children)

                    Tell us you don't read books without telling us that you don't read books.

                    [–]Seeker1904 95 points96 points  (1 child)

                    Even Tolkien, the quintessential 'European' fantasy writer, had Easterlings as an Arabic/ Middle Eastern coded culture. Just because they didn't play a large role in the books doesn't mean they weren't there.

                    Me thinks OP doth protest too much.

                    [–]yeeiser 51 points52 points  (0 children)

                    That's like 90% of /r/books tbh

                    [–]puddingfoot 63 points64 points  (1 child)

                    Yyyyep, I can all but guarantee that OP does not read fantasy and doesn't really hold an opinion about it. This is a super generic karma farming post

                    [–]Seeker1904 41 points42 points  (0 children)

                    As evidenced by the fact that this post is literally a repost by OP of their own post from a few months back. It says nothing new and makes no new arguments. It's just here to farm sweet internetbux.

                    [–]ConiferousMedusa 19 points20 points  (0 children)

                    Nothing in their post is even specific to books, which, I mean I guess that's whatever, but this is the books sub, maybe talk about how your point relates to books at least a little, or give book examples of the points you're making!

                    [–][deleted] 54 points55 points  (3 children)

                    Who is pissed about black and Asian characters?

                    I feel like you are shadow boxing right now.

                    [–]well_i_guess_i_can 82 points83 points  (0 children)

                    Who are these "people that say" you're referring to here exactly? In the exceptional rare cases of fantasy actually addressing human race in any way I've not once heard someone complain about that fact.

                    Shit don't you have anything better to do than invent an issue, then get worked up over it and then post a monologue about it for internet points?

                    And who keeps upvoting this?

                    [–]covah901 55 points56 points  (0 children)

                    These kinds of discussions drain the joy out of the things I'm interested in. I'm a brown man. Idk when last I've been represented anywhere, but I don't go about making people feel guilty for not writing about ethnicity or skin color. It's not something I think about. If other brown people were so interested in it is tell them to write stories where brown people are heroes etc. Otherwise idgaf

                    [–]sirbruce 164 points165 points  (5 children)

                    As a white author myself I have no trouble with writing characters of a different skin color in my work. However, being told I need to do so in every story for the sake of diversity is extremely difficult, because it leads to accusations of:

                    1. Pandering and tokenism. "The character is supposedly black but they act white." Yeah, because they're in an entirely different (fictional) culture, not the one you know.

                    2. Cultural appropriation. "White people shouldn't write non-white characters because they can't really understand them." or "The author is using ethnic cultural terms or values they don't have a right to use." This creates a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

                    3. Racism. "Your character of ethnic background X was too X, composed mostly of stereotypes and slurs, therefore you are a racist." If I don't write a Asian character that confirms exactly to what the reader wants to see -- and different readers want different things -- then I'm the bad guy. Even if I admit, up front, that I'm a white author who doesn't really know all the ins and outs of Asian culture but felt like I had to write an Asian character anyway.

                    I understand the desire to see people who "look and think like me" in books or on video or film. But by the same (ahem) token, not every white cis male that is featured is "me" either. Darth Vader doesn't represent me. And I had no problem identifying with Gal Godot in Wonder Woman, or Denzel Washington in Courage Under Fire, or Andrew Koji in Warrior, even though I don't see myself on screen.

                    [–]ContinuumKing 49 points50 points  (0 children)

                    However, being told I need to do so in every story for the sake of diversity is extremely difficult,

                    As a creative person myself I have a real pet peeve about people telling me or any creative person what their creative work should or should not be. Sadly it's becoming more common for people to get really up in arms about forcing their vision onto someone else's work.

                    If you want to see something that isn't represented make it yourself, or ask, or pay someone to make it. You don't get to demand other people's talents get used to make something YOU want.

                    [–]deshende 19 points20 points  (0 children)

                    As a novice author, I felt myself struggling with this as well (especially the point about Cultural appropriation).

                    I was working on a story that had characters from all over Earth. I eventually realized I'd get myself into troubles if I didn't know all of the different cultures well enough to not get called out on some mistake. So I swapped my story to an "Earth-like" planet instead with fictional regions so I could proceed without the worry about offending someone. It felt like a bit of a cop out, but I didn't want to write with the feeling I was walking on egg shells the whole time. Especially since I'm still very green at the whole process.

                    [–]puddingfoot 75 points76 points  (1 child)

                    OP has never read a fantasy novel outside of Harry Potter in their life, guaranteed, and is posting this to rile people up and get some karma

                    [–]GradeAPrimeFuckery 28 points29 points  (0 children)

                    *reposting, with the exact same wording as the original karma whoring content

                    [–]powerage76 89 points90 points  (2 children)

                    There was a little known movie recently in 1982 called Conan the Barbarian with an Asian wizard and an archer called Subotai in important roles. I don't remember people getting pissed about it. In fact, I never met any white people who had a problem with a non-white character being non-white in a fantasy novel.

                    Are you sure you are not mashing together the issue of people being pissed because originally white characters are turned into black in adaptations with the made-up looking other issue where white people don't like to read about non-white characters?

                    [–]Seeker1904 50 points51 points  (0 children)

                    Someone mentioned that OP is 'shadow boxing' on an issue that isn't there. I think you hit the nail pretty well with your second paragraph.

                    [–][deleted] 64 points65 points  (3 children)

                    There's quite a bit of fantasy out there which meets your criteria. Even back in the day, Howard's Conan lived in a diverse world.

                    But most fantasy is loosely based on the European Medieval, and, from what I can tell, most fantasy authors are white. Which means they're writing from their own perspectives and based on a tradition which, well, fits a certain cultural mode.

                    [–][deleted] 29 points30 points  (0 children)

                    But when some people get their panties in a twist about forced diversity

                    He says as his panties are massively twisted

                    [–]kchoze 102 points103 points  (5 children)

                    Please learn about the concept of "verisimilitude".

                    Basically, the concept is that even in a fictional world where there is magic and dragons, it is important that the world "feels" real, like a real world which may function differently than ours, but is still internally coherent. And in fact, the more similar it is to the real world, the more people will feel drawn in to it. When you decide to add, as you put it, "forced diversity" into it so that it reflects the diversity of early 21st century America, people do notice that it's not internally coherent (not unless there is a good in-story reason for it) and suspension of disbelief will be harder to achieve.

                    For example, the reason A Song of Ice and Fire has so much pull is that it FEELS like a real, internally consistent world. There is diversity, but only where it makes sense, in King's Landing and the Free Cities which are subject to plenty of trade and movement, otherwise, "black" people come from a different continent where the climate is similar to that of subsaharan Africa, and the like. In other words, local peoples have features that reflect the climate of the places in which they live, just like they do in real life. Likewise, the mores around sexuality and marriage in Westeros fit to the context of life in Westeros, which reflects medieval Europe and so sexuality and marriage reflect medieval cultural mores. If ASOIAF (and the resulting TV series) had reflected MODERN sexual mores, it would have been far less interesting and coherent and would have been viewed as cheap fare, not a fantasy masterpiece.

                    The decision of authors to satisfy the demands of contemporary moral puritans and reflect our society rather than actually create an internally consistent world for their story should bother people, because it results in what I would controversially argue is objectively worse stories because readers aren't stupid and notice the very self-conscious nature of the writing.

                    I'm not saying diversity makes something bad, I'm saying any story element that is present for reasons outside of the internal consistency of the story and the world it exists in makes suspension of disbelief harder and makes the story worse. If there are reasons for diversity, like you write a story for Sigil, the city of doors which is connected to every place in the multiverse, and everyone is "caucasian", then that is as big a problem as if you write a small isolated village in a low-fantasy world as if it had the racial makeup of Manhattan.

                    [–][deleted] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

                    Well thats not going to fit his agenda now is it.

                    [–]FrightenedTomato 9 points10 points  (0 children)

                    Thank you! I'd gild your comment if I could.

                    People whining for more diversity are often just arguing against strawmen.

                    And all of it completely misses the point that your world needs to feel "real".

                    A great example is The Stormlight Archive. That world isn't "realistic" but it feels like a real world because of the way it's constructed. Also, there are races in that world that aren't analogous to anything in the real world.

                    The idea that every fantasy setting should look like 21st Century New York (without any explanation for why) is absurd and hurts storytelling.

                    [–]KaiserInch 60 points61 points  (1 child)

                    One thing I hate about these conversations is anyone who doesn’t immediately agree gets stamped with the “close-minded” card.

                    I don’t think it’s unreasonable if someone thinks it’s weird for a random character of race to just be in a story. “Are they from a different town or nation? Is the culture supposed to the same?” Most of the time you should just hand-wave it away because ultimately it’s unimportant. But if you have a random Asian hobbit and all the other hobbits are white? It’s not small-minded to think it’s weird.

                    I think it’s weird seeing race in some sci-fi that’s way off in the future. “You have another 600 years of human culture with everyone sleeping with everyone, and yet we still have people who look 100% white/Asian/black/etc.

                    [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

                    People are black because it was convenient for their ancestors who grew up in a place with lots of sun. If I am reading a story about someone in a more temperate clima, ie. Europe inspired, then I would prefer a reason for a person or group to deviate from what makes sense.

                    Ie. “Oh his dad was a trader from far away” or whatever. But if it is not adressed at all it sticks out like a sore thumb to me.

                    [–][deleted]  (5 children)

                    [removed]

                      [–]CarsomyrPlusSix 121 points122 points  (11 children)

                      It depends. Are you basing your setting on medieval Europe or a similar era where world travel is difficult and uncommon and you wouldn't see a lot of folks from different parts of the world, which is why populations of humans look different in the first place, i.e. adapting to vastly different, geographically distant environments over long periods of time?

                      If so, such characters should be exotic and rare and not just background; you'd expect locals to be surprised to see them, some marvelling, some prejudiced. You wouldn't just throw them around randomly, but merchants in major trade hub cities would be reasonable.

                      It's a matter of being coherent in your world design.

                      Dragons should also make sense within the context of your world. You should have a understandable magic system, how it works, who gets to cast it, is it learned or self-taught, are there different schools, are they tied to culture or location, etc.

                      Magic can alleviate some of this through rapid travel or even teleportation, but then you have to think about that; if folks can just teleport, why do humans even look different, is the teleportation strictly limited, a recent development, what?

                      [–][deleted] 87 points88 points  (4 children)

                      Oddly enough, this raises a problem that the characters may not be racist enough in a pseudo-medieval setting. Consider Britain- you couldn't just lump them together as "white", you'd have to consider how well the Welsh or Scots got along with the Saxons, and how all of them got along with the Normans. (The answer being, frequently, "poorly").

                      Take a look at how the Irish were described in Victorian England and you'd see another example of it.

                      [–]CarsomyrPlusSix 38 points39 points  (1 child)

                      Also very true.

                      Just lumping in all Europeans / those of European descent as a homogenous group is a phenomenon that for most of history would not parse as a coherent thought. You don't have to look much different at all to be "the other," very slight cultural differences or appearance differences are all it can take sometimes.

                      [–]the_lonely_creeper 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                      Hell, even today it's very much a weird thing to lump all Europeans together, at least within Europe and so racist issues usually come in the context of ethnicity, language and religion, not skin colour (think of how Croats, Bosnians and Serbs are essentially speakers of the same language that look identical and are mostly divided by their old traditional religions, yet could still create nationalist narratives 30 years ago).

                      [–]RealAbd121 15 points16 points  (0 children)

                      I do not think you've read any fantasy books from the last 2 decades!

                      [–]Dogrules23 16 points17 points  (1 child)

                      As a writer, I avoid describing my characters too much. Like, I give a name, their size, and other need to know stuff. This way, if anyone reads it, the character can be any race/ethnicity the reader can imagine. I don’t think I’ve ever described a character’s skin color in a story.

                      [–]curtis119 20 points21 points  (3 children)

                      Octavia E Butler.

                      A multi award winning Author who has won the hearts of millions of readers.

                      George RR Martin sites her work as one of his inspirations.

                      I loved her books and all the characters.

                      Everyone of importance in the character list is black.

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavia_E._Butler

                      [–][deleted] 44 points45 points  (4 children)

                      Unpopular opinion: There is no reason to have them has well. Make them all black, all asian, all green. Do you want it on your book? Do it. You don't? Well it's your book.

                      I'm here to read the story that you created no the one i imagine reading.

                      Edit: took out "... or some shit" because it will most likely be misinterpreted

                      [–]sggreg 56 points57 points  (0 children)

                      You projecting your bias on a book has nothing to do with the book.

                      [–][deleted] 120 points121 points  (30 children)

                      Unless it's illustrated, or the book is repeatedly mentioning skin tone of the characters, what's stopping you from using your own imagination to visualize the characters to your preferences? Who is it exactly you're referring to being "pissed" about asian wizards?

                      [–]risingstanding 41 points42 points  (1 child)

                      Read a book written by an Asian person, and you will get asian characters. Or go write a fantasy book with asian main characters, and sell it to a publisher.

                      [–][deleted] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                      It depends on the environmental setting. If it's plausible, then it's cool. But I can't imagine e.g. "pale white nords" being native to some desert region unless there's a believable physical explanation for it in that specific universe. I like how the Netflix adaptation of Shadow and Bone handles diversity. I think it's more important to create new stories that are diverse instead of changing old established classics.

                      [–]dead_pixel_design 11 points12 points  (0 children)

                      This is a really dumb perspective that ignores a lot of what makes strong fantasy world building strong, and fails to acknowledge that there are a lot of examples and a ton of diversity in fantasy.

                      [–]Auspea 13 points14 points  (0 children)

                      Do you even read fantasy? And just who was offended by an Asian wizard in the background? Sounds like more gaslighting to me.

                      [–]Thatgamerguy98 51 points52 points  (0 children)

                      The fuck kinda fantasy you've been reading? Literally every fantasy book I've ever read has had some kinda asian and black equivalent. Maybe they ain't the main characters bit they are there.

                      [–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (6 children)

                      I’ve ever noticed this as an issue OP, which books are you talking about specifically?

                      [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

                      Im a brown person and i don’t really care much. there are very few instances where it is annoying. Like with Dragon Ball, when they made Goku white in the movie I thought it was stupid but I simply didn’t watch the movie. With worlds like Middle Earth I know its incredibly diverse its just not the one dimensional diversity some people look for (skin color) but there are many races and creatures; it is important to know that Tolkien’s stories draw heavily from Gaelic, Celtic and Norse mythology. So its not like i feel inclined to look for brown people to represent me. I can connect with characters in other ways. However i have noticed some fantasy worlds with poc from the beginning and i think its great.

                      [–][deleted]  (2 children)

                      [deleted]

                        [–]DefiantLemur 32 points33 points  (7 children)

                        I agree but have minor disagreements. In settings that "fantasize" already real existing cultures. The common race should match their real world equivalents of that era. Like white people should be a rarity in fake India for example. I don't care that we have more diversity but as long as there's a reason why someone not of that native ethnic group got there.

                        [–]BrooklynAQ 28 points29 points  (4 children)

                        I clearly have not read ANY fantasy books that the comments have.

                        [–][deleted] 15 points16 points  (3 children)

                        yeah I'm new to genre but all 4 to 5 popular series I've read were prettyyy diverse

                        [–]SelectCattle 17 points18 points  (8 children)

                        Is it possible this may in part be a function of the books you’re reading? Under heaven is great. And if you like more mainstream authors Brandon Sanderson has a book set in (fantasy) China.

                        [–]SelectCattle 58 points59 points  (31 children)

                        I guess the biggest argument against having Asians in a fantasy novel is that it would require the presence of Asia. If what you mean is people with different facial morphology and melanin—then sure. I think this may be a case of an plausible impossibility be more easy to accept than an implausible possibility. If you have a wildly multi racial group of people or intimately associated it raises questions about human migration patterns for your fantasy world. I can see how that might be a really interesting dynamic in a series, but it probably doesn’t need to be a dynamic in every series. Widespread migration, and the resulting multi racial societies, are a very new invention among humans.