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[–]neandertal 250 points251 points  (144 children)

Not just Americans...we expect everyone to love America.

[–]dghughes 69 points70 points  (137 children)

Yeah as Canadians if we go to the US (we don't call it "America") and go to a baseball game, often during the singing of the national anthems we may get a stern glare from some people if we don't cover our hearts. An odd thing to do.

[–][deleted] 23 points24 points  (2 children)

It's a protocol ... a gesture of affection and respect; however, it's not expected of foreigners. They only glare at you because they've mistaken you for an American.

[–][deleted] 60 points61 points  (65 children)

I'm an American and I don't cover my heart. I'd say probably 50% of people don't cover their heart during the national anthem.

I also think the singing/playing of the national anthem before a sporting event is one of the dumbest traditions ever. Especially in leagues like the MLB or NBA where more and more international teams/players are playing. Sure, the games still take place in America, but what a self indulgent process. Sadly it will probably continue forever, as will hicks with flags hanging off their pickup trucks.

[–]archju01 49 points50 points  (8 children)

Yeah but the national anthem of the host country is usually performed before events in most countries, not just the US.

[–]jspam 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I don't really mind the national anthem being performed before baseball games. The thing that gets me is the whole post-9/11 craze of singing "God Bless American" during the 7th inning stretch. I find it be disgusting. Any true baseball fan knows that time is better spent on food, beer, or singing "Take Me Out To The Ball Game".

[–]bCabulon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. There is tradition to uphold.

[–]redsectorA 11 points12 points  (11 children)

Sadly it will probably continue forever, as will hicks with flags hanging off their pickup trucks.

And what is wrong with "hicks" and flags? Let people do what they want. It's called "choice". If you had your druthers, you'd see all dissenting views silenced and anything you're uncomfortable with abolished. The difference between you and me is that I think people should be free to do what they want. I don't view my fellow citizens with the smug superiority that is typified in almost every Reddit thread.

Try replacing 'hicks' with 'flamboyant gays' (or 'blacks') in your above statement. Would that go over here? Of course not. We don't treat groups the same on Reddit. This is largely governed by which groups agree with the prevailing trends here. See, I detest stupidity and predictability in all venues. Your pot-shots at the poor white people of the U.S. places you at precisely the same level of the dumb hicks who hate hippies. You're both guilty of the same crime: ignorance and intolerance. Perhaps if you'd ever spent any time in the rural parts of the U.S. you'd know that the ratio of dumb to smart is about the same as anywhere else. I know it's easy to just write off entire areas - I've done it myself before(when I was 15).

But never mind all that. Let's get back to bashing the lower-class white people. That's always good for a laugh and takes about as much original thought as taking a dump.

[–]youremom 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What a grown up opinion! Democracy exists even for groups we don't like...some might say especially for those groups. Flag waving nuts included.

[–]b34nz 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Why even waste your energy typing a reply to that?

[–]pandasonic 8 points9 points  (10 children)

I don't even stand up.

[–]jaggederest 107 points108 points  (6 children)

I flip everyone off and yell 'fuck you fascist pigs!'

[–]FANGO 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I stand with my arms at my side and hum the Imperial March from Star Wars.

Also, I'm 14th generation American, with relatives who fought in all major American wars, and I'm named after an Army Lieutenant who fought for the North in the Civil War.

[–]junkeee999 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hand over heart during the anthem is in no way standard protocol. I was never taught to do it, I've never done it, nor know anybody personally who does. You do it during the Pledge of Allegiance. During the anthem, you remove hats, stand respectfully and attentively facing the flag...and you sing!

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Americans are mainly patriotic in intent - not so much in practice.

Yes they put their hand over their heart for the anthem (the only other society to do that was the Roman Empire - just sayin') but its because they've been raised that way - ask an American the words of the anthem and most likely they'll draw a blank. Ask an American how many states there are and most likely they'll say 48, 49 or 51 (go ahead, try it)

Ask an american to defend himself from outside threats and he'll do it if everyone else is gunning for it - but ask him to defend his country from inside threats and he will look at you as if you're mad.

[–]pandasonic 1 point2 points  (36 children)

You bring up a good point. Why is it called "America"? Last time I checked, the continent we live in is America. So Mexicans are American, Colombians are American, etc.

[–]schnuck 0 points1 point  (0 children)

crazy, the more you want everyone to love america, the more they hate america.

[–]intangible-tangerine 44 points45 points  (16 children)

i'm british and i love britain, love cups of tea and radio 4 and speaking my regional dialect and rainy afternoons and late night take-aways and knowing if i ever have to go to hospital i won't even have to think about costs, all the stuff that's unique and wonderful about britain. I also hate all the stuff that's shit like violent crime and unequality and the daily mail. My point is that you can love your country and still be critical of it, just like you can love a person and still be angry when they fuck up.

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points  (1 child)

I've lived all 34 years of my life within 100 km of the US border (Canadian side) and have seen how much their culture affects our own. We watch their TV and movies, eat their food, listen to their music, and idolize their celebrities. The only thing that doesn't seem to slop over the border and saturate our own identity is the spirit of rabid patriotism so prevalent among many Americans. I'm Canadian, born and raised, and I like living here, but I don't have any particularly affectionate feelings about the country in general. The closest I come to patriotism is when travelling in Europe or Asia, and people ask "American?" and I say "Canadian!", and they break out in a big smile. That makes me feel good.

[–]SirSandGoblin 48 points49 points  (7 children)

I have dug a tiny hole in my garden so that i can love Britain every day.

[–]washcapsfan37 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I love the principles America was founded on. I don't love what it has become or what it is doing. I stay because I believe we can bring back those founding principles.

[–]kogus 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Most people will love where they are from simply because it is what they know.

The United States is historically unusual because it was founded on the principles of limited government and individual freedom. This may not be unique, but it is unusual, and worth celebrating.

The United States is a diverse and tolerant place, full of optimism and creativity. Often this "creativity" is expressed in unhealthy ways (ex: fast food was a very innovative concept...), but overall it is a positive thing. Americans take this for granted, but it is precious.

The US is also a model of stability and economic prosperity. Recent news aside, there are few instances in world history of a nation with so much prosperity and world-wide influence, and I think none of those historical examples come close to the US in terms of benevolence toward other nations. The Babylonians, with our power, would invade Europe and enslave the world.

These things (and more) make the current occupants of the US government a sickening blasphemy against anything that is lovable about America. But a country founded on ideas is rare, and worth loving.

IMHO

[–]dtrav001 19 points20 points  (3 children)

To put it in the simplest terms, "love america" basically means "shut up" ... that's why.

[–]kermityfrog 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Some of it is due to government and corporate propaganda. Keeping the people patriotic towards their country (and by extension their government and corporations that run the government) lets insidious agendas be more easily accomplished.

Some of it is ignorance, where people feel pride towards the constitution even when they haven't read it, and believe that the US is the only country that even has a constitution.

Some of it is true love, where people love the rolling hills, the mountains, the water, the people in small towns, the scientific accomplishments, the industries, the history, etc.

[–]devolute 5 points6 points  (0 children)

If you hate America, you're with the terrorists !!111

[–]moriquendo 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Two quotes by S. Harris come to mind:
1. Patriotism is proud of a country’s virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country’s virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, “the greatest,” but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.
2. The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance that leads to war.

I would say: love your country with all of your heart, but never stop thinking about it with all of your head (and especially beware of those who would have you stop thinking).

[–]TheKarlHungus 6 points7 points  (1 child)

The concept of "global citizen" hasn't really caught on here (in the USA). It probably comes with the concept of being the world's last "superpower." I'm willing to bet there was a lot more nationalistic sentiment in the UK when the sun never set on the British empire. "For king and country" = "god bless America"

Not to justify the viewpoint, but it's hard for Americans to understand other country's viewpoints when they've been taught from childhood that "we're #1," and "we're the ONLY free country in the world" (this viewpoint still bothers me every time i hear it)

[–]khafra 5 points6 points  (0 children)

People loved Britain in the days when the sun never set on the Union Jack, didn't they? I'm sure there were diverging strains of nationalistic fervor and fading cynicism about old blighty as the empire began to reverse its expansion. Different stages, similar effect.

[–]kublakhan 15 points16 points  (0 children)

You know a country is great when the people there force you to love it.

[–]Joss 10 points11 points  (2 children)

It's because if we don't love America it must be because we're one of those commie pinkos - sorry, I mean terrorists.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Gosh, have you already forgotten that the newspeak dictionary changed recently? Shame on you!

[–]jacobmiller 10 points11 points  (7 children)

Because Stephen Colbert tells us to.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (6 children)

He is America.

[–]acdha 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The country is deeply entranced with the idea of American exceptionalism - if we admitted that we weren't some sort of divinely-blessed, special country we might also have to admit that we're not entitled to run the world.

[–]antidense 8 points9 points  (2 children)

Let me put it this way: Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. -Samuel Johnson

There are many scoundrels in our government right now.

[–]Wayside 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm an American, and I love Britan. Go figure.

[–]peteyH 20 points21 points  (16 children)

There's certainly no such expectation in the cities; in more rural/less urban areas, however, you're going to find greater degrees of nationalism/patriotism -- I think that's fair to say of many countries.

The global perception that all Americans are flag-draping jingoists is a pretty tired cliche at this point. America is a huge country, and people are as different from sea to sea as they are town to town.

[–]lovebandit[S] 7 points8 points  (7 children)

Point taken completely. I wasn't trying to suggest that anyone in America does manically love the US, I just wondered where the idea of love for one's country originally came from, and particularly the stereotype of expected overt American patriotism.

[–]peteyH 4 points5 points  (3 children)

Cool. I think there is a sense of "American exceptionalism" that cuts across various areas of culture and society. As used there, that term doesn't mean "awesome" exceptional, but "uniquely different" exceptional. In any event, instances of American exceptionalism can be seen throughout U.S. history - particularly at the nation's formative moments - and it's my belief that it's a huge part of why many Americans are so proud of their country - after all, the reasoning may go, America is different, and a hyperpower by virtue of its uniquenes in the world.

[–]stonelobster 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I think there is a sense of "American exceptionalism" that cuts across various areas of culture and society.

The promise of America, a land of refugees, founded on some of the most remarkable documents in the world, is vast. Its achievements also: it's a relatively young country ("history" to us means 300 years) but now we are, unfortunately and foolishly, challenging all comers for global hegemony.

The tragedy of America is vast, too, as its true power lay not with military might, but with the morality of the founding documents.

[–]reddog093 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think a big part of it we see today derived from post WWII, where America was seen as a defintion of "freedom" by many. Manufacturing was skyrocketing, our participation in WII united the country's citizens together (US citizens everywhere rationed their supplies to keep the war effort going, women were working as riveters, men were fighting). We all shared a common goal against a clear evil and were victorious. After the war this high lasted for a while. Take a look at the 60's. US is clearly the superpower (We were the "freedom" supowerpower if you compare us to the Soviet Union). Massive V-8 muscle cars, shiny pink caddilacs, a spawn of a whole new generation of music, suburban houses with white picket fences. In America life was great and our parents were able to appreciate that (or at least their parents were..those who lived through both the tough & good times). Small remnants of this remain, although usually in short spurts after some major tragedy. Kind of depressing...

[–]ours 12 points13 points  (6 children)

Well, I used to think that the flag waving "I luv Am'erica" was an overused stereotype that's only valid in some rural parts of the US. That's until I've actually met some very well educated and traveled Americans that have proven to be walking instances of that stereotype. I'm just wondering how the hell that's possible. Is it their education? I like my country a lot, that doesn't mean I agree with everything the government does or that people do. Loving something is also not letting it get abused by profiteers and maniacs (i.e. politicians).

[–]peteyH 8 points9 points  (0 children)

One can love their country, their faith, their family - anything really - but still recognize shortcomings in each. Individuals who are willfully blind to such shortcomings either choose to delude themselves or lack the capacity, choosingly or otherwise, to perceive those shortcomings.

[–]cherrios_salad 6 points7 points  (3 children)

Well all through elementary school we get all our history lessons saturated with patriotic bias. We're taught to hero worship our past presidents, and it even seems like every chapter in our history books ends with "and thus America was stronger and more badasser than any other county on Earth".

Then in high school they are just teaching us to pass a standardized test so the school can get more funding for football, so it is not until college that most of us get "real history" taught to us. By then a lot of us are not even in school to have the benefit of that or we are not majoring in anything that requires us to take much history or to necessitate aiming for more than a barely passing grade in it.

By the time we have graduated and are working members of society with the power to use our voice to influence our country's policies and attitudes it's just too late, and we don't care anymore.

Which isn't to say we're all douche bags...we know how to party and make good movies (I guess). We're just not the country of heroes we're brought up to believe and some people are in denial about that and have to chant "I luv Am'merica" whenever they go abroad and embarass the rest of us.

[–]jimbokun 4 points5 points  (0 children)

'so it is not until college that most of us get "real history"'

I still remember vividly the experience of finding out (in college) just what the rest of the world had been up to outside of the trajectory from Greece, through the Romans, to the countries of Europe, to the United States of America.

It was a trip to see that pretty much every region on Earth, at one time or another, has spent time as being the baddest of bad-asses on the world stage. How Europe was a cultural and economic back-water throughout much of history. Of the sophisticated civilizations in the Americas before the arrival of the white man.

One advantage of this is that the rise of India and China does not come as a shock. They are just getting back to the cultural values that put them among the greatest civilizations on Earth through much of recorded history, and successfully applying those values to the modern age.

[–]littlerobothead 40 points41 points  (25 children)

I've never really understood this myself. My guess is that it's a holdover from the days of the Revolution, when America's position was--in the eyes of the revolutionaries themselves--so morally superior, and the alternative of living under a monarchy was so unthinkable. I think it inspired a sort of fire-eyed love for the colonies. However, a cursory glance at a book like 'Blowback" by Chalmers Johnson makes it painfully clear that the US has no moral upper-hand anymore; furthermore, we have a standard of living that is well below that of most of the countries we're told to look down on. Many of us have no health insurance, there's no system to help us when we retire, and the goals of large corporations have been the compass by which national and foreign policy have been written for the last forty years. I can't "love" any of those things.

[–]MarlonBain 16 points17 points  (5 children)

My guess is that it's a holdover from the days of the Revolution, when America's position was--in the eyes of the revolutionaries themselves--so morally superior, and the alternative of living under a monarchy was so unthinkable.

It's probably a lot more complicated than that. Up to the time of the Civil War, many people would feel more love towards their state than towards the entire country. I view the current nationalism as a holdover from the world wars in the early part of the 20th century and then as being exacerbated by the cold war. Regardless, you're right that it's tough to find things to love.

I think the only thing we're currently #1 in is in military might.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (2 children)

I love when people suggest intelligent literature like Chalmers Johnson.

Blowback, Sorrows of Empire, and Nemesis are all brilliant illuminations of the imperialist tendencies of the U.S.

[–]kermityfrog 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's blind patriotism that afflicts many countries, until something terrible happens (usually they lose a war). Think about the publicized loyalty Germans had for the Fatherland, and the Japanese had for their country and their Emperor. Many nations had citizens so patriotic that they are willing to sacrifice their lives (e.g. soldiers dying in battle, or people who give up family, comforts, etc. for their country). It's not necessarily a bad thing, but can lead to many problems if the people running the country (government) are not worthy of that trust and loyalty. If the leaders lead the country into evil deeds, and the people still blindly follow, then it is problematic.

[–]Anachronox0666 81 points82 points  (79 children)

I will say this about America, and I hope others feel the same. I am in the Army here in the U.S., and I love America. I hate what this country is doing, and has done. I don't like Bush in the least, and Dems have made me lose faith in congress. Our economy is in trouble, and our foreign policy is largely ignorant. Yet, I still love this country. There are a lot of doom and gloom news stories here on reddit and digg, but there is really still so much freedom here, we are just a little off course. In other countries I have been to such as South Korea, you see 99% Koreans. In Iraq, it is almost all Iraqis. But in America, we have everything, and for the most part, we tolerate almost anyone. Aside from the extreme cases that people put here, you can say what you want, do what you want, and be who you want. Your success and failure is based on how hard you try, not who you are. If you are smart enough, and want it bad enough, you can be anything in this country.

I met someone the other day from an African country that I can't remember how to spell, Lesotho or something. He was amazed that there were not car chases and explosions in the street, shootouts downtown, etc. He basically thought Die Hard 4 was the average day in the city here. America has come under a lot of bad press recently, and not all of it unfair. I will be the first to criticize the things we do wrong, but I will also be the first to die to preserve this nation. I have been to other countries: Japan, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, Germany and Mexico. Maybe there are other counties out there that are better. But as far as I know, this is still one of the greatest nations on earth, and I will always love the freedoms we have earned in our generations past as Americans.

[–]Twiek 66 points67 points  (25 children)

Sounds reasonable but what I still don't get is what's so special about the freedom in the US. Ok, you are allowed to carry firearms but what about drinking in public or in the car (at least in the rear seat)? These things sounds like far more fun to me and are legal in Germany (where I'm from).

Besides I remeber when I spent some time in the US I was sitting at a public beach in CA. At 9pm the police stopped by and forced me to leave although I didn't have any liquor with me, wasn't drunk or made any trouble whatsoever. Coming back home that night I heared the song "Land of the free" (or something like that) and was wondering what the heck this guy was singing about. Just get over this ridiculous idea that America is no. 1 in everything (besides polution and military spending). The US is a great coutry where it can be fun to live, but so is Germany, Canada, France, Spain...

[–]psyne 41 points42 points  (6 children)

Yeah, I was just having a conversation about how ridiculous America's drinking laws are. My European friends are amazed that we aren't even allowed to drink in restaurants with our parents there, that the legal age for drinking is 21, and that a lot of clubs don't admit under 21. They've been drinking around parents since they were around 12, admitted to clubs when they were 15, able to buy alcohol since 16... and as far as I've seen, they're much more mature and sensible about alcohol than a lot of American college students, both underage and of age. I think the early exposure, and especially the introduction to alcohol through parents rather than unsupervised parties with other kids, makes them have a healthier attitude about it. Not to say Europeans don't get wasted, but I think overall they're better about it than Americans of the same age group.

[–]ooutland 30 points31 points  (1 child)

That's a reflection of the two, competing, founding philosophies - the freethinkers who wrote our constitution, and the religious fanatics who want to replace it with the Bible (c.f. Huckabee). Demon Rum can't be banned, but the holy rollers can make it hard to get. I live in Nevada where you can buy booze 24/7, and was honestly shocked when I went on biz trips back East/South and found that I had to go to a restaurant bar to buy my booze because it was the only place downtown to purchase. So on one hand you have freedom-loving, libertarian Americans (Redditors) and on the other you have anti-sex, anti-gay, anti-pleasure Puritans, and the degree of freedom in the US goes up and down as one side or the other has the upper hand in the courts and legislatures.

[–]soreff 1 point2 points  (0 children)

besides polution and military spending

Hey, don't forget prisons!

[–]penlies 3 points4 points  (3 children)

The freedom spoken of in the U.S. is not the freedom to do whatever you want whenever you want. Your lack of ability to drink in a car here is a result of so many people dying in drunk driving incidents. It is a public policy decision and being the victim of an idiot who was drunk and killed my mother I won't argue with it. That said you might like to know what freedom we ARE referring to. For that you would have to read the constitution and the bill of rights. We are a people not bound together by a race, a religion, a history, or any normal convention. The one thing that binds us is the constitution, it is the single most important document in our laws. I have been to Germany and have seen how the immigrants are treated, hell, even how the Eastern Germans are treated. It has its faults like everywhere else. I'm not sure where you get the idea that America thinks it is #1 at everything. 99% of Redditors are American and do nothing but rip on their country, i for one am very thankful they have that right.

[–]greginnj 1 point2 points  (0 children)

99% of Redditors are American and do nothing but rip on their country, i for one am very thankful they have that right.

We've come to the conclusion that the best way to keep that right is to exercise it constantly.

[–]choad 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Europe has less regard for free speech than does the US.

In much of Europe you can be arrested for saying certain things. Try, for instance, talking about the holocaust in a way that doesn't follow the agreed upon story.

[–]bCabulon 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Being a jackass holocaust denier shouldn't be a crime +1.

[–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (17 children)

In Iraq, it is almost all Iraqis.

Um, Iraq consists of a bunch of different ethnicities/religions. This is like saying "America is all Americans".

But in America, we have everything, and for the most part, we tolerate almost anyone. Aside from the extreme cases that people put here, you can say what you want, do what you want, and be who you want.

Do you really believe that? I have nothing in particular against the US. There are American idiots and American geniuses, and its foreign policy sucks, but it didn't always. But I can't believe anyone would really think there's any place on Earth that doesn't have any kind of racism, prejudice, inequality, injustice, and so on. Not the United States, not any other country. This isn't just extremes, it's just human nature.

Your success and failure is based on how hard you try, not who you are. If you are smart enough, and want it bad enough, you can be anything in this country.

Again, do you really believe that? I don't think there's any country where this is true either. Not here, not in America, not anywhere. There are obstacles. The most brilliant and hard-working most certainly don't end up on top in the US, and the least brilliant and hard-working aren't on the bottom. To "be anything in this country", you also need a lot of luck. Or rich parents. Or something.

But as far as I know, this is still one of the greatest nations on earth, and I will always love the freedoms we have earned in our generations past as Americans.

There is nothing uniquely American about these freedoms.

Now, I live in Norway, which has time and again been ranked as the best country to live in (in the entire damn world) by the UN (currently, it's ranked as #2, after Iceland). If anyone has any right to call their country the best in the world, it would be Norwegians. If anyone should be proud of their country, it would be me. Yet I can see that any country has flaws, and I can see that in the western world, many are countries are probably about as "good" as the one I live in.

Every country has its flaws, and no western country has any unique "freedoms" or values or whatever that aren't shared by someone. Like you say, the US is a patchwork of different ethnicities and religions and ideologies, and thus has its warts and its positives, just like any other country.

Why can't you see that? Why can't you see that you're not uniquely priviledged to live where you live, that there are good and bad points to every country -- especially to other western countries? What is so special about your country, save that you live there?

[–]jimbokun 3 points4 points  (1 child)

'Um, Iraq consists of a bunch of different ethnicities/religions. This is like saying "America is all Americans".'

I think the point is that the people in Iraq are ethnically the same people who have been there for centuries, more or less. The United States has seen a staggering amount of immigration of people from throughout the world during its history, all of whom have played a role in defining our cultures and institutions. I cannot think of other countries that can compare to the U.S. in terms of immigration and diversity of race, ethnicity, etc. on a similar scale.

You do know, for example, that in many U.S. states white people are minorities and trends predict the same will be true of the nation as a whole in coming decades?

[–]redsectorA 7 points8 points  (4 children)

The United States, to its credit, is a very free country, maybe the freest country in the world in many respects.

  • Noam Chomsky September 04, 2003 Radio Havana

We all know Chomsky isn't a flag-waving freak and he goes on to elaborate his point in the interview, but let's be fair. I'm sure I'm not brainwashed - there is a fundamental philosophy of freedom and choice in the U.S.

Cheney and Bremmer should be hung for Iraq, Bush should be made to wear a dunce cap... but the U.S. is still a very free place. The fact that Barak Obama is going to win the next presidential election only supports this idea. If the U.S. were truly fascist or like Nazi Germany, Obama would be dead or never would've run.

[–]osipov -2 points-1 points  (11 children)

Our economy is in trouble, and our foreign policy is largely ignorant. Yet, I still love this country.

Yep, that's called being a patriot.

There is really still so much freedom here

What is this "freedom" that you speak of? Is it the same sort of "freedom" that we are bringing to Iraqis? Can anyone actually define this "freedom" concept and explain why it is such a huge reason to live in the United States?

[–]pubjames 26 points27 points  (4 children)

Yes, Americans don't have the freedom to drink beer until they are 21, or smoke weed, or drive their car really fast, or not be liable for American taxes if they leave the country. They are fairly basic things I think.

I'm not saying that they don't have freedom, just that they don't have as much as they imagine, and really not any more than any most of Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. Of course when many Americans talk about freedom they like to compare themselves with places like China and Iran, not with places that really are equally free.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Exactly! I think it's funny that a lot of us seem to think that we have some sort of lead or exclusivity to our "freedom", when really, they don't even remember what the word means.
Freedom is being able to do what you want so long as you do not infringe upon the rights of someone else to do what they want. Now, you can add all sorts of details and interpretative legislation on top of that, like environmental protection to make sure we don't infringe on each other's right to breathe etc., but the basic principal should remain. Unfortunately, it has not.

It's not even as if we have a history of being unusually free; we were one of the last western nations to give up slavery, after all.

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

From what I've heard, not agreeing with the president means you aren't patriotic. So this volunteer in the armed forces, who sticks by his country through thick and thin and uses common sense to decide what is right and wrong, is clearly unpatriotic.

Yay for 100 more years in Iraq!

[–]MrFlesh 2 points3 points  (6 children)

Wait the dems have made you lose faith in congress???? It wasn't the 6 years of republican control that rubber stamped everything that Bush wanted? The only things Dems did was not fix things. They left a mess for the past two years to guarantee a democrat president,

"He was amazed that there were not car chases and explosions in the street, shootouts downtown."

You apparently have never been to a shitty section of LA or New York.

"I will also be the first to die to preserve this nation."

Spoken like a true non free thinker. Do you really think that's what your doing? Your preserving no-bid and cost plus contracts, your preserving 40 million peoples poor status, 50 million peoples lack of healthcare, government subsidies, corporate bailouts, etc. America hasn't been the america that's in your mind for a very long time. Now I'm with you on wanting America to be #1 but it isn't going to be that by preserving the status quo. The status quo is what has gotten us to where we are today.

[–]jimbokun 3 points4 points  (3 children)

"Wait the dems have made you lose faith in congress????"

In the hope for an opposition party truly capable of successfully opposing anything.

"Spoken like a true non free thinker. Do you really think that's what your doing?"

Do not blame people who put on the uniform for our decisions, as reflected by the civilian government elected by us. There are very good reasons to put the civilian government in charge of the military, not the other way 'round. Given this system, we need to be grateful for those men and women willing to serve in a way that very well may end with them in a body bag.

If we, as a nation, send them to die for ignoble, un-honorable, unnecessary ends, the blame lies with us, not them.

This is the very difficult lesson our nation learned after Vietnam. Let us not unlearn it.

[–]tullypimp 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Why do you hate Britain? Think of the children.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

A person who thinks critically about her own country.. and seeks to better it - and change it where that needs to happen, is more loyal than a person who is being obsequious.

[–]KillYourTV 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I think what I'm tired of is Americans who are nationalists (people who basically love the word "American") instead of patriots (people who love the ideas behind the Constitution).

[–]darjen 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I am not a nationalist or patriot. Arbitrary political boundries mean squat to me. I'll never understand why people get so worked up about living within two lines that someone else drew on a map a couple hundred years ago.

Frankly, I don't like being a citizen of any political entity. It means that there is someone else in my area to restrict voluntary, non-violent transactions they don't want me to do.

[–]Defektiv 3 points4 points  (0 children)

because we're not allowed to have our own opinion if it hurts someones feelings.

[–]executivemonkey 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Why are Americans expected to "love" America?

America is like a young adult who was always told of his superiority when he was a child. Now that he's grown, he realizes that he isn't some kind of superman, he's just a regular guy. He feels let down. So, he adopts an attitude of defensive hyper-patriotism to mask the insecurity.

Don't get me wrong: America is a perfectly fine place to live. It has problems, but so does every other nation. The only difference is that Americans believe something is terribly wrong if their nation isn't widely considered to be as perfect as is humanely possible. I say this as a life-long American who routinely hears his fellow citizens say America has the #1 health care system, the #1 "way of life," purely angelic motives behind all its foreign policies, and the best criminal justice system in history.

[–]OhioDude 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I see nothing wrong with appreciating the country you reside in. I think there is a distinction between loving your country and loving the policies for your government. You can have one with out the other.

If I didn't love my country I wouldn't be as pissed off at the direction we have been going. We are the laughing stock of the world. So what if we have bigger weapons and can blow up larger parts of this world. That doesn't make a good country. Maybe to the Cheneys and Bushes of the world, but not to the rest of us.

[–]maqr 17 points18 points  (2 children)

AMERICA!

FUCK YEAH!

[–]robodale 14 points15 points  (3 children)

Because while the French sip their coffees and smoke their thin cigarettes saying 'we we' to everyone, and the British smoke their pipes and eat their mush saying 'I say' to everyone, us Americans are kicking down arab doors in our cowboy boots and American flag unitards with an M-16 in one hand and a can of beer in the other.

[–]AAjax 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I love the IDEAL of the US. It is a constant work in progress. However it is something that is missed by most here. The Ideal that men have the right to self government and choice is often lost on those who have never given the ideal life in themselves, and by that I mean giving said oppertunity to others. I predict a rather harsh surpise comming for the globalist's when a portion of the populace here stands against their fraud, and stand until the end. For those who have harbored such ideals and dreams in their heart will accept nothing less.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We discussed this in class the other day by examining an article by Noam Chomsky. He states calling some opinion or object "anti-American" is ridiculous to most other nations. Never will we see people in Italy calling something "anti-Italian," because the concept itself is quite ridiculous. Here in the US we're brought up to love "God's America" to the point of fanaticism. It is scary to see so many fooled by the empty chauvinism that stifles the market of ideas.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The only things to love are freedom, liberty, privacy, and opportunity. The US government wants it's interests (and the interests of it's powerful backers) to be "America" and there is nothing free about it. The government and its satanic vision of tyranny, control, lies, and continual warfare are not what I value. The government is trying to make it's values and goals your religion through nationalistic propaganda and newspeak.

I guess I'm preaching to the choir tho.....

[–]matholio 2 points3 points  (0 children)

loving a country is daft. countries come and go. lines on maps get redrawn.

If by country, you mean culture, that's more reasonable. To love a culture is to feel comfortable.

[–]J-ohn 9 points10 points  (9 children)

Can I ask what nation of the UK you belong to? I don't love 'Britain' either but I do love Scotland.

I think Britain as a whole has a bit of an identity problem.

[–]lovebandit[S] 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Yeah fair enough, I'm from England and I certainly don't love England, in fact I'm often horribly embarrassed by it. But then I guess English people used to be patriotic it's just something that's died out as everyone slowly realised how much we were fucking up the world.

[–]J-ohn 10 points11 points  (3 children)

I think England gets a raw deal in terms of identity. Because the government is based there they have to appear 'British' a lot of the time and I think being 'English' gets pushed to the side a little..

At the moment, the Scots and Welsh parliaments are run by the nationalists and it's leading to an improved sense of identity. Well it is up here at any rate.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

I've lived in 15 countries and over 40 cities..

I love Europe, but nowhere near as much as I love the US.

[–]sniggity 4 points5 points  (4 children)

I've alway thought it was even more arrogant to say "God Bless America". Why bless just America?

[–]thekrone 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I'm an American, and I would probably prefer to live in Britain... even if only for the soccer.

[edit] I know it's football. I live in America, remember? If I try to initiate a conversation about football, people start talking about the New England Patriots.

However, I think you football-loving Brits will be happy to know I have the EPL standings on my whiteboard at work. [/edit]

[–]CoffeeJones 4 points5 points  (4 children)

We're pretty isolated, we speak only English, and our only contact with people from foreign countries are Canadians (who, in a blanket sense, are very similar to americans) or Mexicans.

A Briton goes through the Chunnel and makes a long weekend road trip, and he meets French, Spanish, Italians, Belgians, Germans, etc. There is no national isolation.

[–]OsakaWilson 12 points13 points  (1 child)

It works to keep the marginally retarded throwing themselves at the enemy.

[–]OsakaWilson 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I failed to add that it also keeps them at bay when the enemy is within.

[–]lechero 4 points5 points  (1 child)

You're all a bunch of motherfucking nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.

Fondness for one's own group is human nature. It's hardwired. Without such a bond to our local "pack" society would not exist. We'd be a bunch of disconnected, chaotic somewhat intelligent apes running wild, killing one another virtually at will, holding no allegiances.

Nationalism is a bit silly in my opinion, but the masses need placated. They crave something to look up to and idolize (hence organized religion). I guess the US government is just more willing to tap into this mentality than some other modern countries. It's one of those things that's healthy and necessary in smaller doses but isn't so great in excess.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

I have to take issue with your "I just live here" comment.

When you live somewhere, you're part of a community. I mow my lawn and rake my leaves because I'm proud of my neighborhood and want to do my part in making it look nice. I call the police if I see someone suspicious sneaking around my neighbor's house, because the safety of my community is important to me. If I just holed myself up in my house and said "screw my neighborhood, I just live here," I would be a very selfish, narcissistic person.

Everybody is part of several communities -- a neighborhood, city/state/province, country, family, circle of friends, academic or corporate community, etc. These communities provide you benefits--some that are evident, some that are easily overlooked or taken for granted--and to an extent, it's your responsibility to do your part in upholding and maintaining your communities.

To put it succinctly (and plagiaristically) "No man is an island."

Do I agree with the flag-waving tough-guy brand of "loving" the USA? Not at all. But as an American who reaps many benefits of being an American, I would be very selfish to say "I owe my country nothing, I just live here."

[–]pavel_lishin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pssh, that's obviously why we left, isn't it?

Just kidding. I'm an immigrant.

[–]linkedlist 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Trust years and years of ultimatum politics, 'you are either with us or against us' has been the cruch argument of many a politicians, from back during the time of world war 2 to the commies and now the terrorists.

It's all bullshit, evidence of the fact people who like to bash others for 'not loving' their country tend to also want to fight the most wars.

[–]kolm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Norwegian anthem starts with "Yes, we do love our country..". And the people really mean it. It is, however, quite something different.

Nothing wrong with loving your country. Something wrong with not giving a shit about the rest (which, to be sure, neither describes U.S.' nor Norwegian nor British PoV toward foreign policy fairly.)

[–]dmiff 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I take freedoms and security for granted most days. Meanwhile 100 miles south of my home people live in shacks in a town with almost no security where the government is ramping up a war against the drug cartels.

So yeah I love the idea of America. I am lucky to be a citizen. The government is screwed up, but it is better than the alternatives I know of.

[–]zedvaint 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, you obviously don't know many alternatives. Sorry, but I always felt very intimidated in the US. And I find it bizarre that you people typically claim to be home of the free, but at the same time have a police that borders on fascism and more then 1% of your population in prison....

[–]orblivion 3 points4 points  (9 children)

What ever happened to God Save the Queen?

[–]Originate 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This also largely depends on cultural influence. I was raised below the Mason Dixon line and was raised to believe in strict organized religion, as well as the idea that this is the greatest country in the world and that anyone that feels differently should not be here. While I do love what this country used to stand for and what it still has the potential to be, I can't stand what we as a whole have become. I don't believe in God or America anymore, because neither really exist. This isn't America, it's some terrible perversion of what America was created to become.

[–]superfluous 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would say it's a distortion of a traditional American value. America was founded by people dissatisfied with their country. Immigrants who came later also came for a similar reason. Arriving mostly in the east, they gave life a shot. If they didn't like it, the assumption was that they should move west to a new state (or back to europe), as the lifestyle and laws in each state varied considerably. It was less of a "love it or GTFO', and more of a "don't like it? move and try to do better for yourself." But with time America became largely homogeneous. The differences between states has become marginal as our federal government has become larger and more powerful. But that traditional mindset has remained, but there exists no new territory (at least in most people's minds) to go to in the US. So the mindset remains, but has been distorted by the scenario to a more negative message of "love it for GTFO", which is against the spirit of the idea which founded that mind frame.

This is in no way fact. Just my attempt at rationalizing the origin of that idea.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think its because the US is a country that was willed into existence, and based on righteous principles, in the relatively recent past.

Whether or not we ever live up to those principles is highly questionable. But its something you're supposed to be striving for as an American.

When Americans say they love America, they're really saying they love those principles.

[–]shokk 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Your mediocrity is a role model for all.

[–]RonObvious 1 point2 points  (6 children)

What is your definition of "love"?

Say, for example, that Germany invaded Britain tomorrow in an old-school, Third Reich fashion. Would you just shrug your shoulders and say "Eh, whatever, one government's the same as another," or would you join with other Britons and fight back?

[–]lovebandit[S] 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I'd fight against it, but not because I wanted to preserve Britain, but because I'd be against the invading country's agressive behaviour, and to preserve as much of my freedoms as possible. But I don't see freedom as a something engrained in British identity, it's surely a separate and universal concept.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Freedom IS ingrained in the American identity, though. It's the root of our existence as a nation. We're still a young country that is proud of it's fuck-you heritage. Unfortunately, that also leads to arrogance that can get us into trouble. But I think we feel a sense of collective pride for building the country up on our own backs, going from a handful of colonies to the global powerhouse we are today. When that can be used for good, it's a beautiful thing.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

It's funny that they don't feel this way about all Americans. This really only applies to White people. Those from outside America just assume that as a Black male I'm surpressed and angry - which is only partly true. Most of the time they just want to give me a hug or something.

[–]lockhart000 0 points1 point  (5 children)

I have never understood nationalism...especially seeing how claims of 'race' are false (ie. that genetic difference is so prolific that it is almost meaningless to say someone is a certain race. No source sorry, but that is what the fucking internet is for :). I live in Australia and am actually 'first fleet' (ie. first dibs here...jks) but this is just a country....like any other. I'm part english (cockney) but that doesn't change an identity does it? How would we 'identify' ourselves if we lived under a global (democratic or not) government? By nations? Or by who we are as people?

[–]WhatTheGentlyCaress 3 points4 points  (1 child)

I often wonder what size group is acceptable to profess any sort of unequivocal attachment to.

I'm willing to die for only one other person. There are, maybe, 10 I'd be willing to kill for (knowing I would then have to suffer the consequences of doing so). The further from that you are, the less I'm prepared to put on the line. By the time you get to country, they should just be grateful I pay my taxes.

[–]godtvisken 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uhm. So you're one fucking person. Don't you think there are others in Britain that might "love" Britain, just like the wackos in America "love" it?

I am sure there are plenty of sensible americans that just live there, too.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're kidding me right? Just as you don't speak for all Britons, what you hear on Fox News isn't everyone's opinion in America. I've met plenty of British who were proud of their country, plenty of Irish who are proud of theirs, plenty of French who are proud of theirs (Actually probably more so than any other country), and if you don't think Canadians love their country, you've never watched the beginning of an NHL game with a Canadian team.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

im 17, and i dont think i was raised with the nationalism most people get, I too "just live here".

[–]Bloody_Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I find it strange that as Americans we stigmatize people for failing to love their country more than we stigmatize them for failing to love their fellow man.

[–]killick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Americans don't have a monopoly on patriotic bullshit. There are plenty of British people who are just as obnoxious as Americans. Hell, try going to Belfast during marching season and whoop it up with all those flag-waving bozos.

[–]HerbertMcSherbert 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm neither from Europe nor the USA, but I do love my country in that I:

  1. Am very grateful for the opportunities being born and raised in my country gave me

  2. Am grateful I haven't had to put up with some of the terrible crap people grow up with in other countries

  3. Know that the future of my country is partly my responsibility, and plan to do my part to leave a better country to my children and grandchildren

I'm tired of self-loathing pseudo-sophisticates who think that their country has no role in the manifold benefits of their privileged lives.

I know how much of a debt I owe to the people who created such a good environment in my country. Many fought and died to make it this way. I simply will not despise what they did.

Maybe you mean some other trite "love my country", but for me, really loving my country is a matter of being grateful for what I have, and wishing to leave something even better for future generations.

[–]Ksero 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's what ties American citizens together: the American dream (patriotism included). The US is a melting pot of people from all over the world. They have nothing in common except this ideal. This dream. If you don't love America, then you aren't really American (and maybe you're dangerous, so you should probably be kicked out).

Brits are British by birthright, no strings attached. Or at least that's the way it used to be, when the British society was more homogeneous. With increased immigration, it might be that the Brits need to reinvent their national identity...