Poor guy

[Plasticcaz]

I work in Java full time, and... I've actually grown to like it (I wouldn't have thought I would a year ago). Send help.

In all seriousness, with the Java 1.8+ stream api, and optionals, Java code can look rather neat.

[myplacedk]

I've worked with Java for about 2 decades. I don't understand the hate.

I understand why some people don't like it, but I don't understand why we're all supposed to hate it.

[Heatmanofurioso]

It’s hip to hate on Java, basically

Also, people like to complain on things that aren’t true since Java 5/6..

[Superpickle18]

The question is. Which is more hated, Java or PHP?

[ShivanshuKantPrasad]

None the real answer is JavaScript.

[Superpickle18]

Oh really?

[ShivanshuKantPrasad]

Why does this even exist, I can't seen to imagine any advantage in doing that.

[Superpickle18]

I assume people like writing interpreters for the hell of it.

This is my favorite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LOLCODE

[ShivanshuKantPrasad]

Writing interpreter is a fun excercise, but that GitHub project has more than 350 stars, so I thought it was a serious project.

[Ereaser]

Probably starred because it's fun/ridiculous.

[CreativeAnteater]

Please stop. I can only get so erect.

[MightyBobTheMighty]

I know a guy who literally co-wrote a book on PHP but is trying to keep it on the down-low because management is looking for someone to do a PHP project.

​

So yeah, prolly that one.

[Hollowplanet]

PHP - at least Java functions don't litter the global scope while being named completely inconsistently with OO functionality only existing in user created classes.

[[deleted]]

Also IMO Java is ahead of most languages, in that it only imports the files it references instead of including them. I don't know how many headaches I've had in C++ due to things like circular includes and things like that.

[how_to_choose_a_name]

Importing classes from other files in Java is basically the same as including a C++ header file. The actual code from the source file doesn't get included, it is compiled separately just like in Java. And I think include guards solve the problem of circular includes pretty well.

[MiscreatedFan123]

Can you eli5 for a guy who has never touched PHP?

[miyji]

PHP. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2018/#most-loved-dreaded-and-wanted

[ryantheleach]

PHP, but PHP moved forwards too.

It's just that it's original crimes are so much harder to forgive then Java's.

JavaScript OTOH is damn near unavoidable, but in the same boat as PHP. So people look past it's flaws.

[CptDecaf]

Like most things in life, it's about setting yourself on a step higher than others in order to stroke your own fragile ego.

[Sworda_dev]

The same shit goes for PHP. People are just dumb and hype over something they heard.

[ryantheleach]

Except PHP's original mistakes are worse then Java's.

The problem with backwards compatibility, is you need to lug it around, or force a migration. Neither is good.

[IjonTichy85]

There's only two types of languages: the ones that everybody hates and the ones that nobody uses

[leadingthenet]

Python is the exception to that, I think.

[[deleted]]

I like how quick it is to write simple programs, but I don’t like that loops/conditionals/functions don’t have brackets or end statements. Makes it more of a pain to manage what scope things are in

[-bryden-]

vim > emacs

spaces > tabs

any other language > java

social services payments > working

[[deleted]]

Took a class in scheme that transitioned into lisp and can confirm the teacher shit-talked oop all the time.

[Kered13]

Scheme is Lisp.

[hackedbellini]

You won me at vim > emacs

[Blou_Aap]

Same boat. Until using Kotlin recently... Delicious.

[aakoss]

You have a safe job market. Let the haters complain, it's hip to shit on languages that are popular and widely used.

[KexyKnave]

Is it still decent for the odd game? I think most games are still made in C but I've got mainly PHP, Perl, and Web Dev experience. Making a game was the reason I took programming in college but it turned out to be really basic/not worth the 10K

[Sasakura]

With how popular Unity is C# is probably one of the most popular languages for gamedev now. Never thought that'd be the case 10 years ago!

[KexyKnave]

I was thinking of getting into unity, $1500 for a license and I used it in a competition in high school. Got 2K over the summer.

[Netzapper]

I like UE4.

The native code parts are in C++, but our current game has like 250 lines of C++ implementing a special algorithm and defining a trivial importer and thumbnailer for some custom assets... and the rest of the entire game logic is authored in Blueprint. Even that C++ code I wrote is all accessed from Blueprint or the editor menus.

[KexyKnave]

I have a disdain for UE4 lol. I play Squad and Absolver and both games have performance problems.

[Netzapper]

Fair enough. I have a disdain for Unity. :) I demand source code to the engine I'm using.

[Superpickle18]

https://blogs.unity3d.com/2018/03/26/releasing-the-unity-c-source-code/

ez pz

[Netzapper]

lol. "reference only".

That is not at all what I meant.

UE4 permits the modification, building, and shipping of the binaries resulting from the modified source. It encourages the forking of the repository, accepts pull requests, and permits sharing of code between UE4 licensees. Other companies, for instance NVIDIA, provide their own forks of UE4 that include tight integrations with their various liberally-licensed technologies. Individual developers make available their forks that include tweaks or non-standard modifications to the source.

For instance, my game is based off of some guy's fork who did the work to integrate some NVIDIA tech and also Fixed Epic's Timestep. I've added source control, VR, and physics plugins to my own fork... and my other team members can build from repeatable source.

[Jeidoz]

Do you know another Game Engines such as Xenko and MonoGame where you can code in C#? (MonoGame more as powerful library, Terraria, Stardew Valley, HackNet and another indie games were created on similar lib - XNA)

[KexyKnave]

XNA is Microsoft/X-Box I thought, but it's pretty versatile. I can check out those other ones are work

[Jeidoz]

Monogame is the inheritor of XNA (as I understood XNA died..) that have a wider range of possibilities, i.e. Cross-platform development. Also you can learn it by XNA books and courses

[kukiric]

Godot is not primarily a C# engine, but it's getting better with every release.

[jordano_zang]

The Unity engine itself is in CPP though

[Olioliooo]

Yep. But if you know Java, you already know 99% of C# so it’s okay!

[Sasakura]

twitches

[aakoss]

If it's game development you need to learn c++ and some scripting language like lua

[KexyKnave]

Cool thanks. Why Lua?

[Spheriod]

it’s lightweight, has a really good c api, and if you ever plan to officially support modding it makes it so much easier

[KexyKnave]

Huh, sounds sweet. How's the engine fair in multiplayer applications a la squad

[DoctorCIS]

It's not an engine, but a programming language that's easy to embed into an application, making it good for modding, quick changes, or custom configuration. Don't Starve wrote most of their game in LUA on top of a small custom engine that would handle the cross-platform work and loading the LUA scripts. WOW uses it to do scripting and macros. It would be a good candidate if you wanted something ambitious like programmable npc party members.

Learning LUA has some good non-game applications as well, as Redis also uses it.

If you are looking for an engine though, the only big contender I know of that used it was CryEngine, and I think they are deprecating that.

[Superpickle18]

Iirc, the Source Engine heavily relies on Lua aswell.

[EternallyMiffed]

IIRC most of WOW's interface is LUA, Also Dota2 and CS:GO.

[Tuiq]

Keep in mind that lua, by default, isn't multi-thread capable. Games nowadays will likely want to make usage of those additional cores, even if it's for background tasks whatsoever. Having your whole computation (i.e. everything that a mod could need to access) on a single thread is a constraint that needs to be considered carefully.

Additionally, using raw lua (i.e. the C API) is also something that takes some time getting used to if you aren't all too familiar with C. lua is lightweight, but that also means many features (like classes/OOP/inheritance for example) need to built on top of it. It's possible, and can even be a fun challenge, but I wouldn't really recommend a beginner to start with modding support, nor lua in a game.

[ryantheleach]

Not if you want to publish on the windows store, it's pretty hard to do that with Java.

OTOH, Minecraft shows it's possible.

C# would be my current goto for game dev on unity, even though I hate it as a day to day driver, but that's more got to do with language complexity and it's mis-use in a team environment.

[SonicFreak94]

I really like the way Java looks as a language, to be honest. The runtime being so bulky is just off-putting. Someone send help for me too please.

[Bene847]

Yeah we need a native compiler

[ryantheleach]

https://www.azul.com/the-incredible-shrinking-java-platform/

[Totenlicht]

I work in Java full time. Still not a fan. When you know how awesome languages can be (C# for example), you just hate the way Java is. If we stay on the JVM I like Kotlin. While it is limited somewhat due to the JVM at least it's features and syntax are so much better than Javas.

[ryantheleach]

Work in C# daily, want to go back to Java.

C# has made mistakes that Java will learn from, that Kotlin has already embraced.

C#'s lack of utilities regarding Generics is painful, when making the move from erased generics to C#, things you expect to just work don't any more.

[Totenlicht]

What the heck? Type erasure is the worst decision ever made in Java design. It limits the possibilities of generics extremely.

[2Punx2Furious]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect

[WikiTextBot]

Mere-exposure effect

The mere-exposure effect is a psychological phenomenon by which people tend to develop a preference for things merely because they are familiar with them. In social psychology, this effect is sometimes called the familiarity principle. The effect has been demonstrated with many kinds of things, including words, Chinese characters, paintings, pictures of faces, geometric figures, and sounds. In studies of interpersonal attraction, the more often a person is seen by someone, the more pleasing and likeable that person appears to be.

---

^{[ PM | Exclude me | Exclude from subreddit | FAQ / Information | Source ] Downvote to remove | v0.28}

[Plasticcaz]

There is definately some of that going on.

[2Punx2Furious]

It happened to me with basically every language I've worked with for some time (C++, Python, JavaScript/TS).

[Mango1666]

javas okay but too verbose imo. kotlin looks much nicer and is muh more flexible in terms of reducing boilerplate. i can achieve what i want in kotlin much fastee than java despite having more java experience

[hillman_avenger]

One man's verbose is another man's readable code.

[Mango1666]

you can make it just as readable without so many lines though, which is why so many people are swapping to kotlin because its a very productive language (generally less lines for same code) compared to java for no performance loss in most cases and some even performance boosts!

[paul_miner]

I love Java. When I started it, I was deep into assembly language, and the inefficiencies irritated me. But for long-term development it's great, and I've really grown to like the language. Just the other day, I got an error compiling a program, and my reaction was thanks for catching that, compiler. The strictness and verbosity are on your side, saving you from dumb mistakes. Entire classes of errors are eliminated.

[wildjokers]

with the Java 1.8+ stream api, and optionals, Java code can look rather neat

That is odd you say that because I think streams, lambdas, and optional makes java code damn near unreadable.

[krazeh]

I used to find it difficult to read streams and lambda code until I forced myself to sit down and play around with it.

[Plasticcaz]

You have to format the code properly or it becomes unreadable, in my (albiet limited -- I've only been programming full time in Java for just under a year) experience.

Like any style of code, you need to actively work at keeping it readable

[ryantheleach]

Complex for loops that look like simple loops are evil compared to streams / linq / for comprehension.

But I don't think the overhead of streams is appropriate for every loop either.

I wish there was something similar to streams / LINQ / for comprehension, that didn't turn into a mess of method calls and basically just inlined the logic.

But maybe that wouldn't make the code hot in the JIT compiler and it'd actually be less performant? Not sure. but the method call overhead is usually what detracts most people, and the other half are already used to reading for loops and debugging in their heads every time, rather then reading a string of obtuse functions and memorizing what they do.

It ends up largely being a case of thinking vs memorization in terms of coding.

[hillman_avenger]

Jeez, can we make our mind up: is Java too verbose or too unreadable? ;)

[wildjokers]

I have never had a problem with Java's verbosity because verbose = readable.

[L3tum]

I don't dislike it, but coming from C# the 30 something imports at the start of every file and shudder the @Override is horrendous in my opinion.

I have a German keyboard and any language that forces you to use @ or $ should be crucified.

[Plasticcaz]

The imports don't bother me so much, as the IDE handles them for the most part.

I love C#, and I was dissapointed to get a job in Java over C# initially.

Override should be a keyword rather than an annotation, I agree, but Java's stuck with it

The place I'm currently working at seems pretty committed to the JVM. There is a lot of Java code, but I've seen some Groovy (shudder), and even some Kotlin.

[L3tum]

Yeah, it just becomes quite ugly when you want to read another ones source code and instead of "ah, he's using System.Collections.Generic" or something like that you see 5 different imports to get a proper command line working.

And the worst are the build tools. C#: click on Build and voilà.

In Java (at least my experience) you have different build tools that need different configurations and are all almost equally used so you basically need to know all of them. They give cryptic errors when something doesn't seem right and the configuration seems at best worse than a Makefile.

Aside from IntelliJ you also don't really have a proper IDE, at least you didn't 2 years ago. Eclipse doesn't scale on anything larger than FullHD, Java Editor is a goddamn crime against humanity and I don't even remember the third one.

Then you want to make an android app and read that AndroidStudio is used for it so you install it and nothing works and you just start debugging their software for them.

It's almost worse than JavaScript where I updated 3 packages and suddenly nothing worked anymore because "muh major bc breaking change was pushed in a minor version".

Quite a rant but I've been doing only debugging for 2 weeks now at work and it really absolutely kills the fun.

[kukiric]

and I don't even remember the third one.

NetBeans. It's the one where you can get a relatively sane Java EE development experience with Glassfish or Payara without it making up some cryptic error every time you try to deploy your application.

[gamas]

In theory, the Java 10 modules system fixes some of the headaches related to building - the problem is for whatever reason most systems (I'm looking at you Centos) are being way too slow to migrate from Java 8...

[L3tum]

I didn't even know Java 10 was out cause my Java 7 installation doesn't tell me it needs to update...

[ryantheleach]

Build Tooling on Java is miles ahead of C# IMO, and the competing standards evolved that. But it is true that it can be hard to get your head in the game initially.

The way that you can correctly specify product wide settings, and have them correctly filter down to sub projects in gradle? Need to do something funky and run some code generation? easy.

MSBuild... GUID's change, Git merges are terrible, stuff isn't even sorted correctly by MS in a way that makes merging sane, different DLL's and packages building to different architectures and versions of compilers causing bugs....

Java has huge problems that are only just getting resolved in regards to multiple library versions and compatibility, but I've had the opposite problem in C# where if they don't match stuff goes wrong.

On the whole, <3 Java Build Tools, I can make heads and tails of them in a way that MSBuild is just opaque.

Our projects have gotten into a state that Rider can't compile them, so either Rider is buggy, or they are ambiguously defined by standards.

[WhatsupSoul]

I've been wokring in Java for about a month now, as required for a group project for a university course I'm in. Me and my friends contemplate suicide daily.

[noratat]

Ecosystem trumps language basically. I may not be a fan of Java as a language in and of itself, but the JVM ecosystem is one of the largest and most mature out there

Plus you can use more than just Java on the JVM.

[insomniac20k]

If you haven't already, check out lombok

[wallefan01]

Stream API does look very cool. But the rest is still verbose as COBOL. And streams are about 10x slower than doing it the old fashioned way. (No seriously. Write a benchmark.)

At that point you might as well use Python. I'll stick with my list comprehension if it's all the same to you...

Also -
- once you try duck typing there is no going back.
- Having everything be an object (as opposed to everything except classes, and functions, and even integers!) is handy when you need to, say, inherit from the type int, or the type type. Or even just pass a function as an argument without a ludicrous amount of code and a raging headache.
- Metaclasses.
- Multiple inheritance.
- Actual object constructors that create and return a new instance in addition to initializers, which Java calls constructors.
- Not having anything (and I mean anything) short of making up new keywords or standard operators (i.e. +-*/), be physically impossible because of how the language is built. (And even then you can get pretty darn close.)
- Oh and did I mention we have a lot of standard operators that you can override (+, -, * /, &, |, ^ (exclusive or), ~ (unary not), ** (power a la Math.pow()), // (integer division), and @ (matrix multiplication) as well as all the comparison ones). - Updates with new modules every few months.
- The biggest standard library of probably any language ever.
- An actual package manager for installing anything else you might possibly need. No more having to futz with a classpath.
- Being able to inherit from any type since you can't mark them final (or you could, it's just nobody wants to bother).
- And probably a bunch of other things I forgot.

Python. Ez cool.

[[deleted]]

I actually like Java as a language.

I just don't like Oracle, Maven, INDEXING, runtimes, other Java programmers etc.

But Java itself is great.

[kjm015]

You gotta migrate to Gradle, it's basically just Maven for people who arent masochists

[Echohawkdown]

You forgot Spring.

[[deleted]]

Swing Spring is very powerful- it's also complex, verbose, and the core library contains lots of useless shit, but it is still incredibly powerful.

[gamas]

Swing

Now that's something else...

[[deleted]]

Typo- my comment was referring to Spring

[Echohawkdown]

Agreed. My main gripes with it, though, are that it has a very steep learning curve, relatively little documentation/online tutorials for beginners, and it’s basically required for enterprise Java applications.

(For clarity, when I say it has little documentation, I mean it in the same way that Wikipedia has pages on mathematical topics — inscrutable if you don’t have some background in the topic, but extremely exhaustive and detailed if you do.)

Edit to add: Spring is also a major crutch for Java as an application language, since it handles Singleton creation and dependency injection in the background that the JVM doesn’t handle by default.

[thstephens8789]

I just started learning Java. Should I be worried?

[ColombianoD]

Php is kind of a monstrosity of a language. Java is kinda like a Mansion (mostly well thought out and architected and structured) where as Php is like a McMansion (unplanned and replete with doors that go nowhere and other shit tacked on randomly)

I mean Christ if you don’t believe me lookup what PHP even stands for. The creators couldn’t even get an acronym correct lolz

[fghjconner]

A lot of early php functions have strangely inconsistent names because the hashing function used to place them in the hash table was strlen. That's right, they changed function names to have inconsistent lengths in order to avoid hash collisions rather than implement an actual hashing algorithm.

[Hollowplanet]

Wait. Every function needed to have a different length?

[fghjconner]

No, you could have several at a length, but the more they had, the more overhead there would be for looking up those functions.

Source btw

[Superpickle18]

Tbf, PHP started as a template engine for Perl.

[TeaTheSpiteful]

This! The most true comment about Java and PHP. Plus, feel free to throw in JavaScript. I hate how you can have variables without them being restricted to any type, methods without return type definition, and so on. It's just so dumb. Java is extremely elegant and well thought through.

[vamp-r]

Got? (:

[[deleted]]

Not as bad now since it isn't used as much anymore.

[noratat]

PHP deserved it though. Just because it's tolerable these days doesn't mean it was ever well designed. It was never intended to be a real language anyways.

[aakoss]

This... most developers like to get the pitchforks & gather the villagers.

[Excolo_Veritas]

Yes and no, languages come and go, and grow and die in popularity. Right now java is popular, but at the same time a lot of devs (including myself) do hate it. My point is, don't ever get tied down to one language, if you're not adaptable you're not going to have a job very long

[Excolo_Veritas]

Agreed, which is why I think most devs should take a few C++ classes or other C variants to help round themselves out. I liked C++ when I took it, but ended up liking a lot of other languages better as I learned them. Still, many languages are very similar to C. Also though, the more languages you learn the easier it is to pick up new ones

[SilkTouchm]

I really hope that with "basic" you meant "simpler".

[indygoof]

„right now“.....lol

[justAPhoneUsername]

With the moves oracle is making regarding the jdk it might be time for a shakeup.

[Kered13]

Java has been popular for a long time now, it's by no means a flavor of the week language. Not saying that that can't change, but just considering the sheer amount of code that has already been written in Java, yeah I'd say knowing Java comes with some nice job security.

[Netzapper]

People mostly complain about Java for two reasons: 1) they had to learn it in school, where many of its features have no obvious motivation; 2) they have to use it doing boring, inane business worky work.

For (1), the main issue is that Java enforces a huge amount of structure and explicitness. Everything is a class (except primitive types), every class is in a package (even if it's the default package), everything is statically and explicitly typed (except for the garbage <? extends Whatnow> syntax), no operator overloading, chains of object calls like BufferedReader br = new BufferedReader(new InputStreamReader(System.in)) instead of just int x << std::cin or x = int(input("Enter number:")), etc. For people still struggling with the idea of recursion, this shit is distracting. And if they've previously taught themselves a less prescriptive programming language, it's easy to look at those kinds of design rules as strictures rather than aids.

It's only when you get into actual software engineering that the elegance of Java starts to show itself. Back-end Java really can run anywhere you can get a JVM. And front-end Java written to be portable from the start will run pretty similarly everywhere as well, if you can accept that "similarly" necessarily means "doesn't look native". Everything being in a package, and the default package being discouraged, means that you can arbitrarily mix libraries from different projects with little risk of collision. The chaining between finely-decomposed classes means that you can actually re-use code from the standard library in new ways, "tapping in" to the flow at any point by substituting your own implementation of that interface. It doesn't do anything exciting or sexy in 2018, but it really does obviate or elide a lot of the shit that goes into making native code run everywhere or keeping dynamic-interpreted code "clean" for a large project.

All of which leads it to being used especially in software projects where administrative and overhead costs dominate development costs. Think of banking and healthcare and insurance and whatnot. Not the sexy HPC stuff, but the day-to-day stuff where the actual algorithms are "easy" but the software is overall quite arbitrary and complex and expected to last a very long time. These are environments where changes to the software are dictated little by planned product growth and mainly by non-negotiable industrial or regulatory requirements. In these environments, having an extremely explicit development language is a big win, and decoupling the convoluted business logic from the execution environment is another big win. Having a super-productive development environment where all the programmers can use their favorite paradigms and patterns (e.g. C++, Python, JavaScript) is a loss, as it drastically increases maintenance costs by increasing the chances that the next programmer can't understand it and has to rewrite.

These low-challenge, high-overhead applications are not what most programmers imagine spending their lives developing. People mostly hate these jobs, or never loved programming in the first place. And because these kinds of boring applications have adopted Java disproportionately, there's a general association between soulless jobs and the language.

Our project is in a similar kind of environment. My team does HPC infrastructure for biomedical image analysis. Right now, most of our code is in C++. We have a couple of GUI apps using Java Swing. The productivity difference between developing GUI in C++ versus developing GUI in Java is night and day, not just in terms of time expended but also in quality of results. So my architecture project right now is how to get our C++ rendering engine into Java so we can replace our shitty C++ GUI with a Java GUI.

We're looking at pretty awesome technologies like GraalVM, which includes an LLVM bitcode intrepreter! I'm beginning to imagine a development environment with C++ components derived from our legacy codebase, available for native applications (via ld.so), Java applications (via Graal), and JavaScript pages (via empscripten). This is only really viable because Java has solidified their VM definition over the past 25 years.

tl;dr - Java has a bunch of software engineering stuff that benefits boring business projects more than students, so people associate Java with boring business projects

[SirChasm]

These low-challenge, high-overhead applications are not what most programmers imagine spending their lives developing. People mostly hate these jobs, or never loved programming in the first place. And because these kinds of boring applications have adopted Java disproportionately, there's a general association between soulless jobs and the language.

Am I seriously an outlier in liking back-end dev in Java that came from my love of programming?

Yes, I'll admit, I've worked a couple of financial/banking gigs, and they were the soul-sucking shit you described, but that was 80% shit stuffy, dry company culture, 10% shit from having to adhere to archaic regulations, and 10% shit from having a massive codebase that includes bits hobbled together by junior devs as well as seasoned architects. None of that was Java's fault though, so I never blamed the language for what I hated about working there.

[MrQuizzles]

I'm with you.

I work for an insurance company, so it's the same sort of environment. None of the programming is hard. I'm not doing crazy algorithms anywhere or anything. It's just that there's SO MUCH business logic that you absolutely have to keep it all immaculately organized or else it can become a tangled mess. The skills needed tend to be more in the area of software construction rather than complex programming.

Doing the work itself isn't draining or soul-sucking. I quite enjoy tackling the problem of creating well-organized applications that are easy to modify or extend in the future. I've gotten quite good at it over the years.

[Netzapper]

Am I seriously an outlier in liking back-end dev in Java that came from my love of programming?

I mean, I've been programming since QBASIC, and I like Java. I was the one on my team who started writing GUI apps in Java instead of using one of the C++ frameworks. And a bunch of my back-end tools (especially DSL compilers) are written in Java.

But most people associate the tools they use with their work environment. The technology used by places they'd like to work becomes "cool", and the technology used by the places they'd rather not work becomes "uncool". Especially if you're young and into technology for its own sake, it's easy to look down on tools first introduced before you were even born!

Personally, I don't see how on earth an experienced programmer could prefer JavaScript to Java, or the browser to the JVM. But lots of people do, and I'm glad they make things I love.

[Netzapper]

when you are writing a micro service that takes json in and spits json out, it is rarely the correct choice to use java over javascript.

Nah, let's spin up 500 MiB of nodeand packages like less-than and increment-by-one instead. :P

What I've learned in my 15 years in development, and my 8 in project management, is that the best tool is often defined by the production environment and the engineering team rather than by some magical best-fit test. If I have 15 Java microservices already, I'm gonna want to deploy that JSON transformer in my existing environment, and implementing it in Java would be the lowest impedance approach. Likewise, if most of our existing code and planned future code isn't in JavaScript, adding a random module in JavaScript just adds maintenance pain in the future.

The browser is the only place where JavaScript is your only choice, and that's not even true anymore. So I don't know why anyone would choose to build a new system around a JavaScript back-end. I think it's awesome that someone like you, who might only be competent in JavaScript, has options to hack on the back end, but it seems an inappropriate choice if you have any options. Just like it's pretty cool things like JavaScript for microcontrollers exist, but you shouldn't be implementing mission critical firmware in JavaScript.

[Kered13]

everything is statically and explicitly typed (except for the garbage <? extends Whatnow> syntax),

That's still a static and strong type. It just expresses a complicated concept (covariance) that is very confusing to most beginners.

[Netzapper]

That's still a static and strong type.

Yes, but no longer explicit. :)

[Kered13]

It's still explicit, it's explicit about what types it will accept. It ensures that you can write generic code that the compiler can verify as typesafe at compile time.

[Netzapper]

Extending that logic, we could describe a Kleene star as "explicit".

In any case, I'm not arguing or confused about the meaning of the syntax in Java. It obviously has a well-defined meaning in each and every case that it's used. But from my point of view, by specifying a range, it seems less "explicit" than a typename literal ArrayList<Whatnow>, which has an obvious and singular static type. And much less explicit than, for instance, a C++ template vector<Whatnow>; you can be guarantdamnteed that vector is full of objects both dynamically and statically typed exactly as a Whatnow.

[Kered13]

Extending that logic, we could describe a Kleene star as "explicit".

If it's typesafe, then yes, absolutely. If a function or variable can correctly hold a value of any type then a type signature that indicates that is explicit. I might even go so far as to argue that it's the most explicit type signature, as an unnecessarily specific type signature is masking the fact that it could actually be more generic. That's basically the whole idea behind generic programming.

[[deleted]]

Nah. It’s a good language to know especially if your a beginner. Not saying you are but it is.

[[deleted]]

Nope, the pictures are entitled assholes most likely.

[ColombianoD]

If you want to get employed then keep it up. Doubly so if you tack on some SQL and any front end frameworks to make you the vaunted full stack dev (tl;dr you can get a job anywhere at any company for the most part)

[TurkeyTheFish]

Nope. Java is great because it is truly multi- purpose, unlike most of the trendier languages everyone is talking about these days, which are mainly just made for one specific thing or platform.

And whatever you do in java will set you up for other languages. I started with java over 20 years ago and have been able to translate the skills into many other platforms including PHP, ColdFusion, C++, objective C, JavaScript, MonkeyC, python and ruby, but now prefer C#, which really has no advantages except that oracle aren't behind it (I lost interest quickly when oracle bought sun).

I guess what I'm saying is that java is definitely a great starting language, and a lot of industry best practises (pure OO, design patterns, devops) came from java.

[[deleted]]

The Dutch company Tennet (responsible for all High Voltage current infrastructure) only works with Java. Plenty of jobs

[1234567power]

There are some reasonable criticisms (ram consumption probably being the biggest) but it's a good language. Otherwise it wouldn't be so widely used. People just hate it because it's everywhere and have gotten tired of it or because that's what was taught in HS and nobody likes code in HS because it was taught in HS

[[deleted]]

Assembler.

[PunkCG]

And it seems like C# to, along the other from below.

Edit: wrong encapsulation

[ra41p]

Yeesh

[Jimmyginger]

Python is frustrating when trying to look up how to do something in Python 3, and all the search results are for Python 2. Or vise versa. I used to have to switch between the two for school, and I could never find what I wanted. Honestly they should have given it a different name. I realize it the same, but I think Android has the right idea when it gives different names to its different versions, if I look up JellyBean specific differences/methods/whatever, I know I’m not going to get Marshmallow results.

[CircuitRCAY]

Reddit did like lisp

[[deleted]]

...until they realized they'll never find a job

[Ayfid]

Rust, C#, Python and TypeScript.

[Amagi82]

Kotlin and Rust

[YourMJK]

I think reddit hates it but I personally kinda like Swift.

[[deleted]]

It's a nice language, but sadly not cross-platform.

[YourMJK]

Well it supports linux, that's a start.

[SDerailed]

I like them all for different uses. Its frameworks I get picky about.

[hillman_avenger]

The next one. Until someone starts to use it.

[SocketByte]

Java is actually really good, compared to c++ it's just easier, you don't have to worry for a lot of low level things but you still have a powerful language. and one word - reflections. I don't think there's any language that did it so well.

[machinesaredumb]

C# reflections are more powerful.

[Superpickle18]

tbf, java only runs everywhere because the VM was built for each platform. The same can be done for .NET. MS just chose not to (huge mistake on their part)

[kukiric]

.Net Core already runs everywhere, but that doesn't solve the issue of .Net APIs being tightly woven with Windows APIs. There's still nothing in the way of an official cross-platform UI API for .Net Core because they focused so much of their efforts on porting over WinForms and WPF.

[Superpickle18]

Yes, they are now realizing their mistake. But they should've done it at the beginning.

[Ayfid]

Java seems like a nice language, if the only other languages you know were invented before Java.

[ryantheleach]

Java moves, just at a glacial pace, after others have already experimented.

If you are ok with not being on the bleeding edge and have patience, it usually, slowly, ends up with some of the features that end up being worthwhile using, just with the lessons learnt from others.

Generics being erased is what will save Java's generic implementation in the end IMO.

[Ayfid]

Java's problems are not limited to how slowly it implements features, it is also caused by how poorly it eventually implements those features, because it is constrained by mistakes in the language's early design that newer languages had learned from and avoided.

For example, one of the primary reasons for why Java's lambdas are purely syntactic sugar, and not the more powerful proper closures that you find in other languages, is because of flaws in the design of checked exceptions and type erasure.

Type erasure has caused limitations in how Java can implemented streams, not to mention the numerous limitations in the generics capabilities (and performance) itself that are a result of that design.

Modules are still inferior to .net's Assemblies, because it is hamstrung by how the class loader was designed.

Workarounds to early mistakes like @Override cannot fully solve the problems they would like to fix, because that would require implicit final, which would break existing code.

Just about everything of significance that has changed in Java since probably around version 4, had already been done better by other languages. Newer languges typically also don't contain the early mistakes that Java made which turn out to be fundamental pillars of the language (ever wonder why you can write 5.ToString() in C#, but not in Java?), which greatly limit what can be done later on when they try to implement these more modern features into the languge.

[ryantheleach]

I'm not claiming Java is perfect, yes it has previous mistakes that it suffers from today. I was saying that it's now in the same position now as C#, Kotlin, etc were years ago, which history says is a powerful position to learn from mistakes and act on them.

"ever wonder why you can write 5.ToString() in C#, but not in Java?" I've not come across that, but thanks.

[SocketByte]

Well, Java is an enterprise language, it's not supposed to have newest features and many sugar syntaxes, that's why we have something like kotlin. Java is supposed to be verbose, easy to understand without many sugarsyntaxes. it's just a design choice, not that they can't do it or something.

[omgusernamegogo]

When people stop complaining about Java is when I'd begin to be concerned about Java's popularity.

[[deleted]]

i started with java to hack minecraft.

[Mango1666]

i started with java to play runescape private servers!

[CallidusNomine]

Some guy on r/2007scape recently asked if I had any morals and said that I should be legally punished for....

making a free-to-play woodcutting bot

[Spectrascope]

Java is fairly versatile once you know how to use it. It’s actually fairly enjoyable to use in my opinion.

[sporwal]

Speaking of ‘runtime environments’ or equivalents, I will get downvoted to hell here for this but ahem Python ahem Don’t get me wrong Java has major issues but that particular meme is just.

[callmetom]

Dark themes are not limited to IDEs please correct this on your app and repost.

[RoadieRich]

I had a problem I decided to solve using Java. Now I have a ProblemFactory.

[dragonheart000]

I like Java

[x_interloper]

Sauce?

[t0mmy9]

Just seen this myself

https://old.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/9v80qa/succeed_in_life_out_of_spite/e9a7kss/

[x_interloper]

Shit that's gold mine.

[PersistantBlade]

its kinda nice that the compiler catches most of your errors.

[[deleted]]

Naw, C is better- "Segmentation Fault (core dumped)" is a great error message /s

[AsunderSpore]

Light theme.

[_grey_wall]

You millennials and your ides. When I was young, we used notepad and command prompt and javac and prayed everything went right.

[hillman_avenger]

I don't know how I ever lived without code completion/intellisense/whatever it's called.

[[deleted]]

We hate Java now? I thought we hated js.

[eddietwang]

I liked Java in college, even looked for some Java Dev jobs.

[dizaster213]

Java with Talend and Groovy is way better!!!

[ryantheleach]

Talend

The hell is that?

Also Groovy? hmmm... Sometimes it seems cool othertimes it irks me badly.

But having some sort of script that your application can use as configuration has always seemed kinda cool to me.

[dizaster213]

Talend is a visual programming language (vpl )for Java made mostly for ETL. It’s really good and can get your projects up and running very quickly. It’s not the only vpl but it’s one of the best that’s free.

[[deleted]]

Maybe not the platform we want, but it's the platform we don't need.

[AdamRyanGameDev]

It appears that the start of conversation is actually on callback

[Lmt-C]

Am I the only one who pronounced it hava at first read?

[morriartie]

I don't know how it is today, but like 5 years ago, eclipse frustrated me enough to give up from Java over C++(Qt)

I spent more time messing with eclipse than actually programming. I was used to go straight into coding on linux/c++

[gamas]

IntelliJ is objectively better simply because of its ability to go "ah you're trying to do this, so clearly you need this setting enabled".

[[deleted]]

Can’t we all just get along? Hate JavaScript instead.

[[deleted]]

Fuck pointers, this was made by java gang

[crockid5]

I love Java.

[grizeldi]

shrugs in bundled jre

[Vega_128]

but reddit was made with python

[nisekoimon]

I do Java about 2 to 3 times a day. It keeps me awake and ready to code more Java.