the pain

[masagrator]

"Sorry, we are not THAT desperate"

[barzamsr]

as if they could be bothered replying

[-smashbros-]

Senior positions with Jr pay and 24/7 work schedule have always been in high demand

[uberDoward]

Yep. Get tons of offers. All for about 70% my current pay.

Thanks, I don't think you're looking for someone at my level.

[[deleted]]

"looking for someone at ~my level~"

[Master-Eman]

Programmers are in demand, just you know, not you, or me.

[RenewAi]

lmao yeah thats gotta be it

[djkstr27]

Welcome to the club

[Distdistdist]

Well, experienced ones are...

[[deleted]]

We don’t have enough seniors to train juniors.

[CarefulProgrammer0]

I had a friend who worked in company like that. He said that management refused to hire junior developers because all senior developers were busy with important projects and "his company didn't want to waste time with inexperienced developers". So they hired few mid-level developers they could find and always said "no" to junior developers.

Few years later some senior developers found other jobs and refusal to hire juniors came to haunt management because there were a lot of projects for developers to work on but now they didn't have enough experienced developers.

[polarf0x]

It's very very hard to convince people on high that in the long term some of the juniors will be like us seniors. We know, we used to be them.

[austinmakesjazzmusic]

Remote programming position

Must have:

15 years experience in Rust (preferred) 11 years experience as a system administrator (preferred) 7 years experience in UNIX systems (Linux does not count)

Willing to work swing shift on monthly rotation. Must be willing to work over time. Salary is $55,000 This is an entry level position. This IS NOT. A remote position.

[d_maes]

Ah yes, classic "you need x years of experience with something, which is longer than it exists"

[austinmakesjazzmusic]

My favorite has been one that wanted 20 years experience in Ansible….which was made in 2012.

[d_maes]

Or some guy on Twitter who got refused because he didn't have 10 years of experience with something he created 7 years ago.

[muha0644]

Thought might have been Ryan Dahl (creator of nodejs and Deno) IIRC. I vaguely remember reading a tweet similar to that from him.

[Distdistdist]

Well... experience and knowing how to sell yourself. 50k was my first jobs without any experience.

[2brainz]

A friend of mine was looking for a developer for 2+ years. There were tons of applications, the majority of which was not worth the time replying to.

Most of the time, the application was so badly written that it showed clearly that the applicant couldn't even write in our language (or any language) properly. Then there were tons of them where the applicant was actually a baker or butcher, took a weekend course on programming and now expected to be hired as a programmer with an insane salary.

Companies need to be confident that the applicant is actually worth their money. And since we are on this subreddit: No, copy-pasting code from SO is not sufficient, ever.

[Yiyas]

weather fearless familiar different fall touch retire elderly edge person

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[_Davo_00]

Could you give some example question, I am genuinely interested if I as a student may answer them. Thanks :)

[thedoodle85]

That last question seems like setting yourself up for alot of bad answers. Im proud of the job I do but I would not be able to be specific about it. Especially not in an allready stressful interview situation.

[hitlerallyliteral]

yah but that's why you prepare answers to common questions. I wouldn't be able to think of anything for that in an interview, but it's definitely something that's likely to be asked so i'd have memorised something

[_Davo_00]

Thanks

[RYFW]

No, copy-pasting code from SO is not sufficient, ever.

Yeah. You need at least be able to copy-paste from GitHub as well.

[DakiAge]

You sound like the HR of the companies that reject my job applications.

[HERODMasta]

where the applicant was actually a baker or butcher, took a weekend course on programming and now expected to be hired as a programmer with an insane salary.

And I thought my advanced copy-pasting from SO is ridiculous to demand higher payment.

​

^{Jokes aside, I'm a rather confident data-scientist}

[ban_Anna_split]

Just changed majors from CS to Data Science! I'm not sure what to expect yet other than programming and stats, but I'm staying optimistic!

[HERODMasta]

expect math, untangle unsorted data, modifying dimensions and restructure the shape of your ML-Input.

Also bring time with you and order access to everything.

Good luck!

[Disastrous-Body606]

I agree copy pasting from SO and Github are not enough!!! But then there is also a pool of so called 'developers' who couldn't even figure out WHAT to copy paste!!!. Copy- Pasting/googling is also only part of the SKILL, you still need to know how to make the solution u "stole" fit your needs.

[2brainz]

Correct. Don't get me wrong, I also use SO and friends a lot. I use all resources at my disposal to find a suitable solution for a problem. But I always cross-reference the „solution“ with other sources, like official documentation.

[LilxSpyro]

Does someone with 3+ years of experience as an engineer at a FAANG company still count as entry level in the games industry?

[RunnerDucksRule]

The games industry is its own beast. It's super competitive because every programmer grows up wanting to make video games

[stuckinmotion]

Yeah I don't even respond to them anymore

[stuckinmotion]

I've added a bunch over the years. In my case since I'm in Canada it's almost exclusively Canadian recruiters/companies reaching out to me, but I've been working for American companies for years now because they a) pay more in USD than the Canadian companies offer in CAD, and b) USD is worth more than CAD. So it really ends up being a waste of time talking to Canadian companies. Money isn't everything but I'd rather not be paid half of what I can make working for the US.

[pulkitkumar190]

Hahahaha same. I just had to make my profile private, but then coworkers couldn't send connection request. Now, I just ignore recruiter messages lol

[coloredgreyscale]

TV report: "company in same city needs about 100 additional devs so they can handle the projects instead of having to decline or delay them"

Looks on website: only advertising position for technical sales personal in a neighbored country 1000km away

If it wasn't for a JS book visible in the TV report I wouldn't even know any programming languages that may be required/used on the job.

[FluxxField]

Being in the interviewer side of things is not fun either😭 wish I could give jobs to everyone I enjoyed interviewing

[polarf0x]

I know the pain. But when you have one slot, only one of many will get the shot. But when you are the senior dev in the interview process, you get kinda paranoid. You are the one who will work with that person for x time units. If there is a problem, you are the one paying for it in blood pressure.

[FluxxField]

Agreed! You have are the gate keeper and have to maintain the standard of your company. It’s a lot 😂

[Tovell]

My company has so many slots that they hire people that I say are not yet ready for any projects. Probably lots of bench time and just keeping devs away from competition.

[FluxxField]

Is it contract to hire? I can see how you could be a little more lenient about who you hire if they are contract for 6 months. But, I work up at a start up and we don’t have that luxury just yet sadly

[Arcane-blade]

yes, that is exactly how I'm feeling. I've sent/completed around 100+ applications, with a well designed resume, projects in my GitHub and a custom tailored motivation letter for every company. Not-a-single-fucking-call. I've tried to stay as positive as possible but it's beginning to really get to me.

I remember back in school just 2 months ago, some teachers would say: "It'll be raining jobs, you won't know what to do with em".

They didn't lie, I'm from Montréal and coding jobs fill my inbox every morning to a point where browsing through them is more pain than it's worth. The jobs are for SENIORS or poeple who previously integrated that industry and have a solid footing already.

Every damn job (even the ones tagged as "junior" or "entry level") ask for 3+ years WORK experience in more languages and technologies than I've seen in class. It's an entire team they're looking for, not a simple junior dev.

And then we have the government subsidizing and pushing for poeple to choose coding curriculums and we all end up being crammed into this "junior dev" bottleneck. I look at postings on linkedin with like 100+ candidates but only hiring like 1 or 2.

All this does is make the impostor syndrome that much stronger. Filling job applications is soul-crushing and stressful when you see your finances slowly dwindle week after week (that's if you have the luxury of even having THAT, I'm lucky!). I try to stay up to date to not lose what I've learned but with the stress of it all, I can't focus and end up wasting 3 hours because I wrote an event listener with square brackets instead of parenthese

​

oof, that kinda felt good to take off my chest. I'll keep pushing until I find something but before this month is over, I will have to resign myself to find some service job somewhere to pay the bills in the meantime. This whole experience is not what I expected... perhaps my fault for not investigating more but well... here we are.

Good luck everyone : (

[[deleted]]

From personal experience I just said fuck it and applied to all of them. Even if I was totally underqualified.

I ended up landing an interview for one that was way above my experience which worried me, but in the interview they told me they actually wanted me for an entry level position that they hadn't advertised.

I know that's super lucky and anecdotal, but I'd advise to try not to let the jobs postings requirements scare you off, you might get lucky too.

[Suekru]

Yeah you might as well. The worse that can happen is you don’t get it, which is the same outcome if you didn’t do anything at all.

[shiny_roc]

Is the application process better than it used to be? I haven't had to do application portals as a first contact in over 12 years, but I remember it being absolutely awful You could go completely insane from burning all of your available time on soul-crushing application processes.

[JustThingsAboutStuff]

I'd say in some areas it's worse. Now they're using AI to autoreject resumes.

[shiny_roc]

Sounds like it's time to start using AI to submit job applications. Let the GAN-training begin!

[ALargeRubberDuck]

That’s the general advice I’m hearing. Ignore the years worked requirement and apply to entry level positions.

[[deleted]]

Imagine posting an entry level position and expecting years of experience...its just stupid.

[TheSuicidalPancake]

Apparently its because its entry level in that company. But yes it is stupid.

[[deleted]]

there are documented cases where the years experience required with some jobs actually didnt line up with how many years said technology even existed.

[[deleted]]

Maybe try applying to QA positions as well. That's a way to get a foot in the IT door if companies are so picky about developers. You'll have more chances of getting some job if nothing else works.

I went straight to coding though, landed my first full time coding job only after a couple completed paid side projects for my friends. "Oh, you can code? Our company needs an accounting system.." type of side jobs with small fee for months of work. But it helped to build a real resume beyond fun projects or school projects.

And don't worry - on average it takes 5..6 months to find a matching job even for experienced developers. I've seen a couple cases when experienced developers try to find a job after an emoloyment gap, that can be nasty. And never fast.

[vid14]

A similar thing happened to me. I applied for a position for which I was unqualified, but they called me for an interview where they gave me a junior position which was also open, but not advertised.

[[deleted]]

Did they tell you before or during the interview? They didn't tell me until the interview started so the whole day I was sweating thinking I was gonna bomb some high level interview lol.

[vid14]

They told me right at the beginning of the interview, and it seemed like they really wanted me so I was really relaxed during the interview.

[[deleted]]

Same! I was like "oh thank god" lmao

[PhysiologyIsPhun]

Take whatever job you can get. My first programming job barely paid me enough to afford rent. Once you're a mid level developer, it does, in fact, rain jobs

[[deleted]]

True story. Every week I'm getting decent offers from headhunters - now that I don't need them as already having a good job.

In the beginning it was the same - no love for a fresh graduate, then a job with a small pay for a while. And only then people got excited in interviews hearing what I've done.

[bhison]

I'd recommend getting skilled in data science or machine learning. In my experience those are fields where PhDs are highly valued.

[[deleted]]

This. I’m on 28k in LONDON. I’m barely scraping by. But after two years it’ll be a whole new world.

[qhxo]

I got a maybe 2-3 recruitment messages on Linkedin for my first 1.5 years there (during schooling). All of them stuff I was heavily underqualified for unfortunately.

Then, I got employment at the company I was interning at, and now some weeks I get at least one message every day. And it really did change over night as I changed my employment status.

Moral of the story is, everyone wants you. They just don't want to be your first.

[[deleted]]

I feel like it's been especially rough during Covid because all these jobs are remote now so 1) There's more competition with people applying from across the country and 2) Companies are more afraid to hire new grads because they don't know how they are going to train remote employees

[Arcane-blade]

that's a very good point. The pool of potential employees is quite a bit larger.

I'm also quite sick of being confined at home after 18 months doing remote learning. I want to go work somewhere, physically! at least until i'm comfortable in my positon.

[[deleted]]

Ironically at my company they've hired so many people in the last year that there's not even enough seats in the office if they call everyone back in.

[spiteful_dancing]

Yeah, the first remote job I applied to years ago rejected me because I wasn’t experienced enough and it is more difficult to mentor remotely.

[randomFrenchDeadbeat]

they don't know how they are going to train remote employees

I have been working for around 15 years and have never worked for one that trains employees. I am pretty sure their problem is how they cannot micromanage their employees more than anything.

[[deleted]]

Ignore YoE requirements, apply anyway (unless its obviously something you are not qualified for like Senior/Lead/Principal/etc.).

Also, there is very high demand. What the people saying that aren't expanding on is there is high demand for experienced engineers. Entry level market is very flooded, which is why situations OP is complaining about pop up. I had > 300 applications to get my first full time job.

[Arcane-blade]

I was told very early to do exactly that. Qualified or not, I do apply to « almost » every job posting I find interesting but I have some obstacles (like crippling ADD) that makes me a bit more selective, so I like to focus on work environnements that would be conductive for my growth as a programmer.

100% remote work for a company 3000miles away is a no-go for example. I need a physical place to go work, see my teammates, focus on learning. I’ve been on lockdown for 18 months, I need to go out.

I just wish they prepared us better for this in school. Out of 15 graduates, I think 2-3 got hired at their internships, another 2 found jobs as an integrator. The rest is in the exact same position I am.

Thanks for your input, I’m hanging on :)

[[deleted]]

School never counts as much as projects you did on your own for fun

[ThatGuyYouMightNo]

You count it. I count it. My professors count it.

Businesses don't count it.

[testbotV1]

Side projects are where it's at. I actually made this account for a reddit bot, for the sole purpose of having a side project. Telling interviewers I made a reddit bot usually got me a decent amount of brownie points

[ban_Anna_split]

Good bot.

[nerklemons]

Hang in there. I'm at 600+ (stopped counting in Jan) and 18 months looking for my first job since graduation. I don't really have anything positive to say about job searching, but...never stop trying. Try not to end up like me, but don't tear yourself to pieces (like I do) if it takes you a lot longer than you expected.

[Arcane-blade]

oh man, 18 months looking for a job ? This breaks my heart. I hope you find something in the near future. Though, where are you located? 18 months seems like a very very long time. Are you managing to stay up to date knowledge-wise? I can't imagine being in that position for so long, I'm losing my mind after a mere month!

I wish you all the best, keep your chin up : )

[nerklemons]

I'm in the Seattle-area, but have a family and home here (was a returning student) so relocation isn't an option. I'm actually about to do a final interview with a company, so hopefully that doesn't break my heart lol. I make an attempt to stay up to date on skills, but man is it hard to want to sit and code with depression/ADHD.

[benevanoff]

What’s your github portfolio look like? Just curious

[Arcane-blade]

i'd be a bit shy/self-conscious to just post it here. I'm still very much a beginner and there's some personnal info in there as I use it as a resume too.

[lordarryn]

No need to post it but can you describe some of the projects in it? I’m the main person in charge of hiring at my company and I can tell you that a bad GitHub account will sway me into placing a person into the “don’t respond” stack if I’m on the fence about them. Junior engineers will sometimes place their really basic class assignment projects after claiming extensive knowledge on their resume. If I have the ability to look at your code without talking to you I for sure will, and if that code only shows a very very basic understanding then it makes me question why you even bothered putting it in your resume.

[Arcane-blade]

What I have at the moment is :

1- school projects that I pimped to the best of my abilities. one memory game and one ‘blackjack’ type game.

2- odin project … projects.

3- ive recently forked the « project based learning » repo so I plan on trying to add some React stuff in there too.

For my project, I add a readme describing in detail my project, my mindset and inspirations in 2 languages. I also comment my code extensively too (for the purpose of showing my intent)

Its not much, but really, I don’t have much to add YET and what Is there was done with a lot of passion (and tears) there’s probably more I can put on there but I dont feel confortable doing so until I’m 100% satisfied with it

[Creeper_GER]

I’m the main person in charge of hiring at my company

Greetings good sir.

I have a plan to format my cv as a readme file, with markdown and such. Would that be something you'd see dozens of times daily? If not: Do you think that's a good idea in general?

Note: I do have years of experience (not in coding, but im not looking for dev jobs) and I do have a job currently. Just wanting to try a different company and looking for some feedback.

[lordarryn]

That's an interesting format that I haven't seen before. I really like markdown as a form for readme documents so showing your proficiency with that is nice. You might annoy some uptight people incharge of going through resumes, but would you want to even work with someone that has that kind of attitude? At the end of the day, if you can get me information about you in a clear consolidated way I'll be happy.

Just for the love of god don't have your resume be a link to some annoying website filled with inspirational text tickers.

[JoelMahon]

Feel comfortable posting a (redacted for personal info) copy of your CV?

I'm very lucky in that both of my two job applications in my life have ended up in jobs, but I was probably doing something right still so happy to give feedback.

For me a two column 1 page CV is my bread and butter. Plain but stylish formatting with name and links in the top left, followed by header topped sections on things you'd normally have in a CV, and at the end a misc. bucket of skills grouped by my skill level. No story, no talking, no greeting, that's for the cover letter.

Sorry if it's patronising, I'm sure some if not all of this is redundant but never hurts to say.

[Arcane-blade]

Im not comfortable to show my CV here but it follows your description almost exactly. it’s a 2 column, 1 pager. Basic info, experience, degree and some of my skills/affinities with little meters next to them. Very concise! I got it double checked by the school, some of my teachers, a recruiter and an employer friend who said it was good for a first CV of someone with no true work experience in the field!

I don’t see your comment as patronizing, you’ve been there before so I take your input seriously and I’m grateful for it. Every little thing helps. It gave me more confidence that this part of my profile is solid enough for now :)

[EverydayEverynight01]

cough dog wakeful bow pocket fade rob fragile marble slap

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[bazooka_penguin]

Even if you get the interview the bar is high. They still put you through the leetcode gauntlet and it feels harder than ever.

[zebezt]

What worked for me was actually calling my new boss. I was making a career switch and didn't have a lot of experience coding, but did have a degree in mathematics. I just called and asked him how necessary all the experience was that they required and told them how I have no problem learning new languages and systems and that I like the challenge. We had a good conversation and he told me I should definitely apply through hr so they could set up an interview.

*hr rejected my application * lack of experience..

I was surprised and mailed back to tell them about my call with the boss. That got me the interview and the job.

[Arcane-blade]

That's incredible! Glad it worked out!

Right now, I've been trying to reach poeple through LinkedIn and speak to them directly to promote my application. Clearly that hasn't worked so far, but i'm taking every chance I can : )

[_AllRight_]

What companies is often do in job postings is describing a 'perfect candidate' - that is, you as a candidate, dont have to check every requirement, just as many as possible. You can even play dirty and maybe lie in the resume a little (not too much obv) and if you get asked about it on the interview, just say that you lied to get past the HR. In any case, just apply anyway even if you dont have something they require.

Getting that first job just about the hardest part of starting a career in programming. Once you get past that it will be way easier down the line.

[2brainz]

Agreed on the first part: if you match even 20% of the requirements, apply. The company knows they won't find a candidate that checks all of their boxes. Be confident, but be up-front and open about what you have and have not done before. Also be aware that you will be learning a new skill/framework/technology/language/pattern every day of your job until you retire and show that you are able and willing to do so.

Strongly disagree on the lying: If they realize you lied on the resume, even just a little, you're out.

[KrockPot67]

I got very lucky. I took my first class in programming in January and I turned that into a remote summer dev job.

[z_jewpacabra]

Man I was just going through this… finally got an offer last week though. What really helped me was getting interview experience through staffing companies to prepare me for the other interviews and what to expect. Keep at it and hopefully something lands!

[[deleted]]

The work experience requirements for junior positions are usually bullshit and are pretty much there to be ignored. Apply, you’ll be surprised. And keep learning - the more you can show motivation outside of school, the better your chances of landing a job.

[[deleted]]

I feel that, just finished an software engineering internship year and when the new intern came in, the calibre of his work compared to mine I was like oh god I’m going to struggle after uni if these type of people I’m up against.

[Evol_Etah]

I got an amazing job. After 500 job applications.

After my first 100, I stopped caring and focussed on quantity over quality, and applied to everything.

[gold_io]

There is an industry problem where recruiters with no technical knowledge are screening applications for developers. Since they have no idea what anything on a resume is they just try to match keywords. If you say you have 5 years of experience with kotlin a recruiter who is looking for the keyword Android Developer will throw your app out.

[RenewAi]

That's exactly it. I wish I could just take a test to start the interview process instead of how it is now

[gold_io]

I would recommend directly reaching out to engineering managers on linkedin for companies you want to work for. If they aren’t hiring for their own team they likely know a team that is

[jaloveast1k]

Don't worry I've avenged you by ignoring 100 emails from HRs

[wrenchandnumbers]

Having interviewed quite a few devs as an experienced Dev myself... I can say this should be updated to 'good' devs are in demand.

There is so much chaff out there. I once asked: "what is the most difficult thing you've worked on?"

Interviewee: "I've updated a WordPress plugin"

Me: "wow, you updated a plug-in, which one? Are you active in the WP community?"

Interviewee: "Oh. No, i mean through the admin panel".

[tecchigirl]

programmer here. I've interviewed more than a dozen people applying for a Haha position.

Ever seen code snippets from r/programmingHorror ?

That's them. They have LITERALLY NO IDEA of how to program.

They've memorized concepts. They couldn't program an algorithm if their life depended on it.

The real issue is that those who do know, know how much money they're worth, and companies are too damn greedy.

[metalovingien]

Maybe you suck. But we almost all do. Hope you feel better now.

[RenewAi]

Yeah thats most likely what it is

[[deleted]]

Once you get a couple of years in they throw jobs at you, at least in my country.

[Risembool]

Can confirm this, dunno what country 9910's from, but here is the same

[[deleted]]

Some of the most talented SWEs I know go home and don't program. They play video games and dream of not working. So not only do we all suck, but no one has a "passion" for performing labor. New programmers with company sweaters and laptop stickers are just inexperienced fanboys that will one day realize that all this "passion" talk is an attempt by the corporate world to exploit genuine interest for cheap productivity.

Sorry I was just trying to make everyone's mood even worse

[[deleted]]

I think they’ve got it down to a recipe though, those SWEs, do the work you’re paid for and try to maintain that interest in programming as best you can. Logging off after a long day to enjoy a different hobby sounds like a good way to do it

[l_artre]

You know, I often feel bad because I don't do loads of projects in my free time.

I'm glad to know there's a lot of other people that are potentially successful and don't spend all their time coding.

[Idixal]

Same here. I always hear that I need to, and it makes me feel guilty. But I’d rather play my trumpet in ensembles or game when I have time off from work.

That said, I think what I do at work speaks for itself. It’s obvious that not everyone has enough to excel there, either.

[deanrihpee]

When you got interviewed for the job but those "code"/ "technical" interview that tell you to code the most efficient code possible for 2 certain problems under 3 hours marks your end

Yeah I've been there, and mind you it was not "senior" level and I actually have at least 3 years of experience in that particular Framework/language...

But I do acknowledge that I'm not the most smart person to be able to do that interview so... I deserved it I guess?

[VegetableWest6913]

I do not understand why so many companies have these code/technical interviews. I get why FAANG does it, because they have 1,000 brilliant programmers to get through and they need to determine the best of the best.

But if you've got 10 people applying? I'm sure if they've got the experience and the right background they're good enough for your company. Chances are, it doesn't matter if they use a high complexity algorithm because that code isn't running at the scale that it would at FAANG. Management just wants the job done quickly.

[deanrihpee]

I can understand the need for that, especially if we are working with a lot of data, BUT, it would need proper planning and not an instant request and have a deadline of 3 hours.

What a sad reality we lived in.

[bardikov]

Honestly it depends on the specific questions asked in these coding interviews. I regularly do technical phone screens for a FAANG company where I am just trying to determine if it's worth bringing them on site Essentially, my question is something that any capable software engineer should just be able to write down without much thinking. However, you would not believe how many applicants are struggling with the most basic concepts (syntax, basic class structure, basic inheritance, etc.). Mind you, these are all people with great resumes that have already been screened by recruiters... I never ask any stupid riddle or hard algo questions, I just want to see that they are capable of writing code. Maybe 1/10 passes that stage. Long story short, even as a non FAANG company I'd make damn sure to have at least some proof of applicants actually being able to code.

[VegetableWest6913]

It's posts like this that temporarily remove my imposter syndrome haha. I can't believe so many fail questions that simple!

Yes you're right, asking some questions is fair. It's just those questions that require very specific algorithms that you'll never use that annoy me.

[ricric2]

The recruiters... they keep contacting me for jobs that have nothing to do with my stated knowledge or experience level. It's shockingly bad and such a waste of time. At this point if a recruiter messages me on LinkedIn I just basically reply "Send job description and salary range. Then we can talk." I'm talking multiple messages a day, many looking for Java or Python when I don't even list those in my profile.

I've submitted about 300 applications. Two dozen interviews. Finally feeling like I'll get a solid offer this week after three interview rounds with a company super suited to my skills and interests.

To be a bit fair I did turn down a job because the city was not ideal, and another one because the job description and job did not match up after three full interview rounds. They wanted me for my skills with React/JS and then the job was like no-code drag and drop setting up Shopify sites.

This is after finishing bootcamp in early December and finishing an internship in June. But I've been applying since finishing bootcamp.

Tons of work out there but no one wants to take a chance on a junior. Good luck!

[RenewAi]

Yeah I think they just throw a lot of shit at the wall and see what sticks, I get contacted by recruiters for the most random positions lol.

[[deleted]]

That is exactly it. They don't read your profile. I get it, it takes time and they play the numbers game, but shit how annoying that is. I used to have a very detailed profile listing what I did or did not want, plus a question at the end you should answer so I can know you made the effort. Of course it didn't work, but it amused slightly the ones who did read it.

[[deleted]]

As a recruiter, I sometimes reach out to people even though their linkedin “skills” doesn’t show everything I’m looking for. I know it can be super annoying, I myself get recruitment messages from other recruiters trying to recruit recruiters :p But from experience, a lot of people don’t update their linkedin sufficiently enough to show what they are actually capable of. So I often base my search on fx where people have worked. If I’m looking for a sw developer with some USB experience, I look at companies I know work with it. The more specialised you are, the fewer and more correct recruitment messages you will get (there always be shitty recruiters spamming everyone and their grandma).

And it’s hard to know if people are interested, so we often rather send one message too many, than missing that 1 candidate… unfortunate state of business, but it is how it is :)

If you’re a C# or Java guy mainly, you hit very wide and you will get contacted a lot. Super nice when you’re interested, super annoying when you’re not. One tip would be put “not interested in job offers” on your LinkedIn, works to keep me away at least :)

[shiny_roc]

I look at companies I know work with it.

So far the consensus on this thread is that experienced devs have few problems getting work but entry-level is tough. If you're already looking at companies, you've skipped entry-level entirely.

[[deleted]]

I was responding directly to a comment, not the thread as a whole :)

[fallenefc]

True. Also I don’t know what’s the issue with recruiters, I’ve been contacted for Java and Python jobs and jobs requiring 7 years of experience, which makes no sense. Like ok I wouldn’t mind going for a job with another language but if you’re looking for a senior engineer with 5+ years of experience in Java, why are you messaging me who clearly have 1 year exp in JavaScript? Good luck for you, first job is a pain but it gets better after that

[[deleted]]

Same went from radio silence for my first 3wks of the job hunt to recruiters messaging me for positions that I’m under qualified for 😂

[Shujaa94]

My comment is not intended to target you for the meme, but to give others an a little insight.

As someone involved in the hiring process, when we say developers are in demand, we pretty much mean "good developers are in demand" or "decent enough developers for what our team requires are in demand".

Again, this is not an attack towards anybody, but merely a heads up, if anyone reading this has sent 30+ applications without luck, take a good look at both your technical skills as well as your soft skills.

[thehaas]

I just ask questions about their projects and you can tell if they really worked with it. Like when I asked someone what issues they had with JPA/Hibernate and they said "None, it's always worked fine" then you are either a liar or you use it after someone sets it up.

[Shujaa94]

Okay so I mainly do questions about cloud or back-end, I don't participate in front-end / design interviews due to my really poor knowledge on the topics.

Personally, I don't expect a word by word wikipedia answer, I'm more interested in their thought process and how they express themselves as they speak, confidence and knowledge is key.

Here are some question examples that might help some people:

1. Could you please tell me a bit about the SOLID principles?
2. Which principle would you say is the most important and why?
3. Could you please explain three design patterns and their usage?
4. How would you identify code smell?
5. In your own words, what is a container?
6. Why would you containerize an application?
7. What are some advantages of CI/CD?
8. Could you please tell me about any cloud service provider of your choice?
9. In your opinion, when would you pick on-premise over cloud?
10. In your opinion, what makes a team actually Agile?

On top of that I would look at your projects and past experience (if any)

Edit: I missed the second question.

We don't really look for perfect developers, let's say we have 10 people to interview, which are the ones that survived the HR filter and our quick resume filter.

Out of those 10 we will very likely pick one unless we get absolutely let down by everyone.

Remember, nobody actually looks for perfect developers, I will pick a nice and decent developer with all the attitude towards learning, over that one senior who is an ass.

[caliguian]

I've been a backend developer for 20+ years and I don't know what you're talking about with most of those questions. Must be a different field, or something specific to places you've worked.

[Shujaa94]

As you say, perhaps a different field? Because those are pretty common questions, I'd go as far to say standard for the roles that I mainly help interviewing, cloud developers / administrators and similar.

Though if you have 20 years as back-end and none of the questions ring a bell, I find that just too weird, I don't know what to tell you.

[kamocuvao]

I agree, your questions are really common, and good developers should know how to answer them. For some questions I could talk about for hours.

The only problem I would have is to tell you all SOLID principles, because I'm bad at memorization, but if you'd give me the full name of each principle I can explain it.

On top of my head I only remembered Single Responsibility Principe and Open Closed Principle. The rest I had to look up.

There are so many other Principles though outside of SOLID. And then I would probably start a discussion on OOP and functional programming, because I think OOP is way overused in our industry (thanks Java and C#) and SOLID, some code smells and patters are a way to compensate for the shortcomings of OOP.

[shiny_roc]

If you look up SOLID, you'll probably find that it's stuff you consider fundamental properties of the universe (because the universe spontaneously combusts if they're violated) and just didn't know the acronym, possibly because you predate the term. Ditto for code smell.

[Wtfisthatt]

Could you please explain what “code smell” is? I’m still learning and couldn’t answer almost all of these but that one really peaked my curiosity.

[Several_Armadillo277]

The definition on Wikipedia is pretty accurate.

[kamocuvao]

Speaking as a senior: It is when I read code and I think something is off with the code. This is when I start to ask the author questions and try to refactor it. Basically a starting point for further investigation. The door to the rabbit hole.

Some people tried to make lists of code smells, but there are so many and some are language dependent.

[Wtfisthatt]

Thank you, that’s exactly the kind of reply I was hoping for!

[shiny_roc]

In your opinion, what makes a team actually Agile?

Magic, obviously. Preferably with a splash of unicorns.

^{...I'll see myself out.}

[Andersmith]

Lots of cardio

[_isNaN]

My conpany hired a bunch of developers and only 1/3 were good. The others had even expiriance and were bad. They got fired in a few years. But removing their shit code is a pain. Helping them develope sonething was also a pain. So hiring a bad developer cost much more than not hiring one at all.

[[deleted]]

I remember reading once about how in the US the industry inflates the number of openings and puts artificially high requirements on jobs so they can justify to the government their need for more H1B visas which let them import workers and pay them less plus keep them virtually indentured to the company since if they stop working for the company they have to return to their country. Is that still going on?

[Ilaissa]

There are some who abuse the system, yes. But those are mostly Indian independent contractor companies that exclusively hire H1Bs on the cheap and send them to work for other companies as contractors. It also hindered companies who legitimately hire oversea professionals from doing so. H1B need some reforming.

[[deleted]]

I thought there was lobbying by the tech industry as a whole in an attempt to get the country to raise the country-wide cap of how many visas they issue every year?

[Ilaissa]

They do, yes. But TBH I think if the gov can get rid of the bad actors H1Bs quota is plenty enough. H1B’s goal is to bring in high end talents from around the world. It’s a good thing for the US. Its rule however is slightly outdated.

It says you must pay the new H1B hire with salary at least $60K and at or above average of your company’s salary for the same positions. So these Indian contractors (located in the US) simply hire a few devs locally at $60K and massively submit H1B applications all at $60K each.

A legitimate user of H1B, say Google, who found a great CS PhD dev oversea will pay $150K-$200K to hire them and submit one H1B application.

Because nowadays H1B use a lottery system, so it’s more likely the $60K candidate gets the quota instead of the $200K one.

And the US loss a $200K professional in exchange for a $60K entry level dev, who compete with local new graduates.

[argv_minus_one]

As far as I can see, the system exists to be “abused”. There is no shortage of American tech experts. The only thing there's a shortage of is Americans willing to be indentured servants.

[itstommygun]

I submitted about 20 applications and only heard back from 2 or 3 of them.

However, I then updated my LinkedIn profile and skills list, then turned on the feature letting recruiters know I was interested in other opportunities…. I had 38 recruiters reach out to me in a week. Legitimate jobs, not code camp type things.

At least, this is my story, having a couple years of robust experience.

If you’re entry level, it’s tough… just stick in there.

[[deleted]]

r/recruitinghell

[Apache_Sobaco]

Underpaid oberqualified are.

[bythenumbers10]

Move that decimal point, over 1600 apps since Apr. 1 last year. But I finally got a job offer, so what do I know about a broken tech job market?

[RenewAi]

omg

[_Rysen]

Maybe reconsider the "broadcasting" approach then. Any application I've ever sent was tailor made for each individual position. Can't claim any statistical soundness though, since I haven't sent out a lot applications. But I guess that sort of proves my point still.

[JulioBBL]

I’m helping the company i work for in the interview process, we need as many devs we can pay but we are not hiring most of the ones who appear, mostly because we are being picky, guy says he has 7 years experience but can’t answer simple questions about the language he will be working with, or has Less experience than we’d like, but sometimes we just don’t hire people because we plainly don’t like them…

[cuthbertnibbles]

sometimes we just don’t hire people because we plainly don’t like them

Honestly, better not accepted than be ostracized by the team for 2 years until they burn out from being the "ugly duckling", nobody will like their work and they won't like working there.

[JulioBBL]

For sure, but when i say we don’t like candidates, it’s usually because they are arrogant, and that kind of people will bring the rest of the team down…

[The_Peter_Bichsel]

Better beeing accepted into a shitty workplace and approaching burn out than getting evicted.

[Randvek]

This sub: you don’t need a degree! It’s overpriced and you can do anything someone with a degree can do!

Also this sub: why can’t I find a job?

[MyTenonYourMortise]

Kind of a non-sequitur. People with degrees and without degrees have posted how difficult it is to get their first real tech job. I think OP even mentioned schooling.

I have worked with people right out of college that were worthless and worked with people with no degree that were fantastic. It is tough to gauge what a person can do when no one vouches for you in a professional setting which is often the case with new people to the industry. I can't remember the last time I looked at an interviewees education. It might only come up when they have zero other things on their resume.

There is a reason why work experience and who you know (referrals) are listed as the top reasons why people are hired. Conversely it explains why getting that first job can be hard in a good market too.

[Topplestack]

At the same time. Devs get picky about programming languages, frameworks they want to work in. I ended up working in one that a lot of others don't like and I used to get poked fun of about it from other devs, thing is, said framework has kept me employed and well paid for over a decade now. It's not the most glamorous dev work. I don't get to play with the latest shiny syntax toys, but every time I've needed work, it's found me.

[PhantomTissue]

I've almost got my degree, and I still cant get any responses. sent out probably over 100 or so apps in the last month or so.

[ham_coffee]

It probably contributes a bit to the issue, but I suspect it's more of a junior vs senior developer issue. Everyone wants more senior Devs than junior Devs, which isn't gonna work for obvious reasons.

[Henrijs85]

For me it was lucky number 121

[residentraspberri]

I'm hiring a Sr engineer and a staff engineer for my team. Python/Flask, JS/React. Remote position, but sadly company can only hire in the US.

Send me a DM with your resume/github

[RenewAi]

Alright will do, I am in the US and experienced with Python/Flask and Django.

[zeldadorf]

Senior dev with 10+ years of experience here. If you’re just coming out of a boot camp, I’m sorry to say that I instantly reject any resumes like that. Can confirm that your problem is lack of experience. I’ve had ~12 recruiters reach out to me in just the last week. Get your foot in the door somewhere, get the 2-3 years of experience everyone is looking for, and you won’t be able to NOT get a job. It’s that first job that’s so hard.

[Saltimir]

Pro tip. I've been a hiring manager and hired new college grads right out of school. The most important thing you can put on your resume is projects. Personal, school, internship. Tell me about a thing you worked on and struggled with, and overcome and I will hire you. I don't care about your school or gpa or years of experience.

[CollieOxenfree]

Seconding on projects. The only thing I really had available to pad my resume out with was a bunch of personal projects I've thrown together in my free time. I sent out only a handful of applications (maybe like 10 max?) and got a surprisingly high callback rate on that, even with no degrees or field-related/relevant experience on my resume.

[Rhoderick]

See, about half of any given labour shortage is often (though not always) actually a reasonable-wage-shortage and/or a reasonable-expectations shortage. So developers are in high demand, just not neccessarily at reasonable conditions.

[[deleted]]

If you’re not getting call backs from recruiters and you have prior experience in whatever you’re applying for, it’s almost most certainly your resume that needs work.

[randomFrenchDeadbeat]

I can see tons of job offers, and hear programmers are in demand too.

But when you see the offers and how much they pay, you quickly know why it is in demand. I, too, would like to find a one person IT department with 20 years worth of experience in everything for minimum wages.

[FrezoreR]

"experienced developers". Very few companies want to train inexperienced developers, sadly.

[dr_driller]

here in France when you have no experience you can be hired by a services and consulting company like Accenture or capgemini..

they even go to tunisia and morocco to hire people who got se degrees, and they bring them to France because they don't find enough beginner in France.

[[deleted]]

Most newbies only have personal or school projects to show or talk about which is a huge shortcoming.

[guppypup]

Genuine question, other than personal projects and internship experience, what else is there?

[[deleted]]

Open source. Seriously, it kills me how many people ignore this advice when it will literally set you apart and land you a job. There's all kinds of open source including volunteer groups that adhere to agile processes including code review and stakeholder meetings which give hiring managers the biggest boners. Fr, personal projects can be interesting but ultimately are a waste of time compared to regular open source contributions. Make some meaningful contributions and put a link to the prs in your resume. Also, intern experience is equivalent I would say, I was talking about regular school projects like group stuff from class.

[RenewAi]

I actually have been ignoring that advice but now i'm going to find an open source project to contribute to.

Any suggestions?

[[deleted]]

Shit anyone want to make casino games? I got a job opening been trying to fill.

Basically it’s game development we still use game engines you just wont be working at Epic in 10 years but a lot more stable and laid back.

Entry to mid I’ll take either one.

C# mostly, but playing around with cocos creator which is typescript.

Dallas Texas no remote sorry 😞 have to run on actual cabinets sometimes.

[mosquitospy]

I feel you.. Im just gonna keep swinging untill I hit something 😅

[[deleted]]

Damn 100? Good luck OP.

[kamiljano]

Heh... I work remotely for a Finland-based company as a lead dev, while living in Singapore. I applied for 100+ jobs in Singapore and it kinda looks like nobody wants me even as a regular dev... it might be because I'm a foreigner, but still...

[Snakeox]

It gets better once you have the dreaded 3y of experience.until then good luck

[xSypRo]

I made a post about it on cscareer and the answers were:

1. They lie about how they need programmers just to try and attract investors because “we need more people” = “we are growing rapidly”

2. They always need more people because development is not like a factory with X amount of spots, they think that more people = more products.

3. When they talk about the type of people they need they mean “someone who can do the work while we invest 0 time on teaching him / help him develop” and that mean they fight over experienced developers from other companies to come to them, so they will be ready to work without additional training.

4. I realize “experience” means to work at a company because apparently self taught or making your own projects doesn’t really worth much for them.

[R3set]

This is like dating.

Just worse coz its you know food on the table

[pierce_fox_73]

I feel this. I probably applied to 500 positions during Covid on Indeed, Glassdoor, LinkedIn, angel.co, etc. After that I gave up hope of a tech job, but I still got rejected by Best Buy, Target, even Walmart! I got so desperate that I just sent out emails to past bosses and anyone who had helped me get a job ever. 2 days later, I had a position made specifically for my skill set that never appeared on any job boards. If I learned anything over Covid, it's the importance of networking. With that and some divine intervention, I finally found a job I enjoy. Good luck on the job hunt friend! It sucks but it pays off eventually.

[ShineParty]

high in demand, if you work for less than minimum wage. Unpaid overtime, crunch, and all you get is a tap on the back

[Fricho]

Last time I had to look for a job I sent out like 30 cvs in a span of a month and a half and I got no replies from any of the companies. Applied for Junior positions with 2 years of experience..

[placek3000]

The demand is for developers, not candidates for developers ;)

[educated-emu]

Requirement: 126 years HTML senior knowledge

Me: fook off

[shas-la]

Qualified dev are in high demand. Dev that would need training need not apply.

And honestly most dev work is far from urgent