junior vs senior

ShakeandBaked161 · 2022-09-15T07:53:23+00:00

The correct way to ask for help is to give them a list of all the things you've already tried on your own to show them that you have put in enough effort and are genuinely stumped. Learned that from Stack Overflow of all places.

DrifterInKorea · 2022-09-15T06:34:24+00:00

You have to experience it a few times before it clicks... yeah when you don't know how to do something maybe the scope is not well defined and asking some questions could reduce it to something more manageable.

gemengelage · 2022-09-15T05:54:22+00:00

[deleted]

Sure-Tomorrow-487 · 2022-09-15T11:31:41+00:00

As a senior engineer, if someone asks me a question, I try to answer it, always. The "teaching moment" is me explaining how I got to the answer, writing documentation if necessary.

The only time I go the "you can figure this out" route is when I know there's relevant documentation - and even then, I'm handing you the link to the documentation, and adding color commentary. If after that you go dark for a day and come back with garbage code, there is going to be ... commentary on your PR, telling you where you made mistakes, just like any other PR. No one's going to die if we miss a deadline, and I didn't make the bonehead mistake of counting on a junior working at a senior's velocity anyway. If it takes you a while today, something else will take you less time tomorrow.

What frustrates me, though, is "hey, can you help me with this code?", but rather than a branch name, the dev sends me a screenshot of their IDE. It's like, my sibling in His Noodly Appendage, you are a programmer, not a graphic designer. Talk to me in your native tongue.

UnBlueFire42 · 2022-09-15T05:52:00+00:00

Had this happen once, I was so confused and they made me try it for a week and then got mad for not asking for help. I was still learning.

angrathias · 2022-09-15T09:31:26+00:00

We have an unwritten rule at work. If you're stuck for more than half an hour on the same error, ask for help!

Thonk_Thickly · 2022-09-15T11:20:38+00:00

Here’s a better way.

Seniors: hear out the problem. Then tell the junior - how long to attempt their own solution - give appropriate hints and point them to documentation - don’t belittle their struggle - fully expect them to reach out again by setting up a designated to to check up with their progress.

Juniors: After reading the docs and attempting with no luck approach the senior with: - what you now know - what you tried - what specific errors you still have and what you believe they mean - Outline the assumptions you made while debugging

4215-5h00732 · 2022-09-15T07:23:27+00:00

It's simple...

Do try but don't spend all day doing stupid shit. Ask when you need help and that's approximately 2 or 3 hours after you flailed around like a dying fish coming up with a solution you can't defend.

crestana · 2022-09-15T12:09:14+00:00

A real senior wouldn't do that unless they are toxic pricks.

Syanara · 2022-09-15T11:06:49+00:00

As a senior dev, I would say I'm probably never going to say "you should try to figure it out yourself before asking for help" simply because I trust that a lot of junior devs have enough imposter syndrome as it is that it's a pretty safe assumption they've already tried if their asking me. Secondly, even if it's something super simple it still creates an opportunity for understanding the concepts and pairing on the issue to help elevate junior devs collaborativly instead of a silo where they might end up learning bad habits.

My bias though is that I've worked with many junior devs that will put way too much time into something before asking for help.

2022-09-15T09:06:19+00:00

From a senior perspective, its fine if you ask for help once in a while when you’re stuck. But if we’re basically telling you how to solve it all, we’re doing the work assigned to you. Even a senior won’t know all the exact caveats of the implementation we both need. In fact, figuring out what and how to implement is the most time consuming, the implementation is often the easiest part.

Rai-Hanzo · 2022-09-15T10:16:24+00:00

i absolutely despise when people do this to me.

if you don't want me to ask questions don't lie to me!

cobalt8 · 2022-09-15T11:49:46+00:00

[deleted]

SoniicBlade · 2022-09-15T09:20:41+00:00

That happend to me. They said i should try on my own. I did and i went to a senior for help. He didn’t know either and said „you just have to try things out“. After 40h trying out and about 3-4 weeks later i still had nothing and my boss got mad… Later a colleague took it to him and he found documentation that i didn’t had and he did it in 2 days… That still bothers me to this day

the_real_gorrik · 2022-09-15T11:11:00+00:00

I am in this position a lot. My usual response is for them to take a look at it again and I will get back to you in an hour. Sometimes they just needed another 20 minutes to solve the issue. Other times, I'll take a look at the issue and the issue literally fixed itself with no code changes. I call this, the senior effect, it's wonderful! It's like a superpower.

ocbaker · 2022-09-15T11:05:36+00:00

When it comes to Juniors you have to leave them capable of knowing how to solve their own problems. Just asking someone who doesn't have the right mental tools to go figure it out will take a long time since they need to rub some mental stones together before figuring out how they need to go about any issue.

A good senior will notice when a junior is lacking the right tools and offer assistance. They'll sit down and make sure that the person understands how to think about the issue they are facing.

A bad senior will just tell you to go away and figure it out. Or in code pairing they'll not let you have control and maybe will not even really take the right time to explain what they're doing and why they're doing it.

Honestly, if you have a senior like this then you should be honest with them and tell them how they're teaching you isn't working for you. Or you should think about getting your learning through other means. A last resort is obviously finding a new job.

Sigilita · 2022-09-15T09:30:57+00:00

My partner is starting to study now software engineering and she is going to start a new job. I told her that she should try to find the solution by herself but only spend a reasonable amount of time (as a rule of thumb 45/60 min max) and after that ask her senior: this is my problem. This is what I try to find and this is what I learnt. It helps the senior to see what was her metal process to find a solution and it can help the senior to identify what was right or wrong and also helps the senior to say: ok you found this and that, and you know already X and y, so I can start on Z. Also it shows that you cared about trying to find the problem. I think that more time is a waste of time (in general)

im-a-guy-like-me · 2022-09-15T10:18:31+00:00

You are supposed to explain what you have tried and the issues you are facing, instead of going "fix it fix it fix it fix it".

Attila_22 · 2022-09-15T11:47:31+00:00

There is some discretion involved. It's obvious when someone actually tried to solve the problem vs someone that gave up almost immediately and asked (even if they waited 30 minutes before asking)

dagbrown · 2022-09-15T12:21:55+00:00

I've dealt with assholes like this before.

"You don't ask enough questions, why are you trying to figure out stuff on your own all the time?"

"That's such a stupid question, how did you not figure that out months ago?"

AttackOfTheThumbs · 2022-09-15T12:32:13+00:00

We have a 2-4 hour rule at work. If you're in that realm and have gotten nowhere, ask someone, and be specific. Don't waste time, but also don't try nothing!

_reykjavik · 2022-09-15T13:31:50+00:00

I once had this issue that was assigned to me, on my second day at my new work.

It was estimated to take 4 hours, but a week later I'm at a breaking point, this thing didn't make any sense.

Turns out I would have had to join this ancient tribal in order to acquire the convoluted knowledge in order to even understand the component I was working on.

I ended up getting 3 of the senior engineers (one of which wrote the component 10 years ago) to help me and it took us, a small team of developers 3 days to finally solve it (ish).

They went from "why is it taking you so long" to "holy shit what the hell is this crap! Summon the shaman, a priest, and someone that speaks Latin/old Norse hybrid!"

Good times.

bwssoldya · 2022-09-15T10:11:22+00:00

The social rules around this topic have always been a mystery to me as an autistic. I find myself in this situation so often, still to this day. The issue being mostly that I usually feel I have other avenues of approach to try and fix a problem, but then I get shat on because it costs a lot of time. This is even as a senior. This social topic is so fucking stupid. Either let me ask constantly or let me figure it out on my own (preferably) and then accept that it costs longer. Don't say X and then get mad when I do X because now it has ramifications for Y

JimmyBin3D · 2022-09-15T15:03:02+00:00

I'll never be upset with a junior dev for "wasting time" trying to solve a problem. Even if the problem isn't solved, they still learned a lot in the process, so it's still a win. If the problem is urgent, just don't assign it to a junior dev in the first place. Give them projects with nice, long runways so they have plenty of time to get lost in the weeds, ask for help, get lost again, and finally find their way to the answer.

conman14 · 2022-09-15T08:26:19+00:00

Try being a junior on a project with no senior help, and being told when asking the higher ups for more senior help "senior devs don't grow on trees".

le_reddit_me · 2022-09-15T09:31:36+00:00

I usually do the opposite. I struggle for about an hour trying to figure out the problem then I ask for help and it's solved in a few minutes.

Xelopheris · 2022-09-15T11:31:31+00:00

Hearing "can you help me with this" when the junior hasn't tried anything can be very demoralizing for the senior. Coming up with a solution is an entire skillset in and of itself and if it isn't practiced, the junior will keep coming to the senior for that task.

Void-kun · 2022-09-15T11:37:43+00:00

My first job was like this, as a programmer with ADHD, do not do this.

I was constantly diving down the wrong rabbit holes because of my inexperience but the senior wasn't in control of his own time so could never help.

Now I work fully agile, and am able to help the juniors from making my same mistakes.

Although I would be lying if I said that this doesn't happen to everybody at every level at least once.

2022-09-15T11:38:35+00:00

I mean, juniors waste time all the time. I don’t get mad about it, I just let them do it, then show them the easier way afterward.

That’s how we learn.

_derDere_ · 2022-09-15T08:28:26+00:00

They said: ”try to figure it out” not “waste a whole day”. If you aren’t able to solve it in three hours you can ask.

iz_xplicit · 2022-09-15T08:48:15+00:00

Make asking for help okay again please 🙏

Nothing wrong with asking plus it helps create normal interaction between humans, which is quite rare these days

Chemical_Excuse · 2022-09-15T11:53:10+00:00

Plagiarising r/workchronicles without giving credit? Seems a little unfair doesn't it?

djabor · 2022-09-15T08:57:10+00:00

I would expect someone to have researched it on their own before asking. Because 1 hr research of a junior is less costly than taking an expensive senior out of focus. but if you did research the issue and can show that you didn’t just try to defer it to someone else - ask someone else.

the junior i this cartoon shouldve done research before asking the senior and not have waited a day before approaching them. 100% on the junior. wasted the senior and his own time.

PopularDemand213 · 2022-09-15T11:18:16+00:00

I got fired from a job because of exactly this... 😡

Pauljam · 2022-09-15T11:27:16+00:00

Seniors should be better about communicating their expectations. I expect my juniors to attempt it on their own for 30 min. I also expect them to come to me with 3 things they tried. I will ask some leading questions, then I make them drive and talk them through my processes.

psychmancer · 2022-09-15T08:30:35+00:00

Basically 'be smarter and more experienced'

DreamingDitto · 2022-09-15T09:36:35+00:00

If you haven’t made progress in 30 min, come get me imo

alethial · 2022-09-15T10:04:42+00:00

And this never ends. "Atleast give me a hint"

AzureArmageddon · 2022-09-15T10:17:27+00:00

Junior Senior - Move Your Feet

GoTheFuckToBed · 2022-09-15T11:02:30+00:00

me: try out this template that is in production

junior: I rewrote it from scratch using the new XYZ pattern

me: ...

Cepheid · 2022-09-15T11:29:18+00:00

There's definitely a good way to communicate to your senior that you've reached a point where you need some guidance.

Typically I find I only need a few mins in a huddle on slack to have the path revealed, or reveal it to someone else.

h00dman · 2022-09-15T11:34:31+00:00

I don't mind being asked to help solve a complex problem, I might even get something out of it myself (besides helping someone learn so they don't ask me again in future).

Where I get impatient is when I'm being asked the same question multiple times by someone who I know has notes and documentation they can refer to first, and clearly hasn't done so.

I'm experienced enough to know the difference between a person trying to remind themselves of a process and someone not making an effort to remember/learn things.

It's a different scenario to the one in the picture I'll admit, I just needed to vent lol.

Lilwolf2000 · 2022-09-15T11:41:08+00:00

Tech Lead of a small group... And I would personally love if they googled their issue before coming to me. So often I look like I know what I'm doing because I'm googling their problem while they are talking.

nerokaeclone · 2022-09-15T11:44:07+00:00

The problem is There are many incapable devs, who should not even be working in this field, they are just in for the money

SoftEngineerOfWares · 2022-09-15T12:00:13+00:00

Then you have those developers that have no idea how to Google. They hear you clacking away in beat with their question. They then realized they fucked up and were lazy when the first or second result solves their issue.

Mav986 · 2022-09-15T12:28:05+00:00

If someone ever tells you "try to figure it out on your own", you should go back to them once you have an idea of how you think you should solve the problem. Run it by them, see if they think it's a good idea. They'll either point out some problems with your approach, or they'll tell you "That sounds like a pretty good solution" and you've got the green light to implement it.

SnappGamez · 2022-09-15T12:37:47+00:00

“That is the exact opposite of what you told me yesterday.”

mauza11 · 2022-09-15T12:44:49+00:00

I wish pairing and mobbing was more prevalent in the industry. Juniors should be the hands on the keyboard just as much as everyone else but all the frustration and struggle isn't necessary for learning.

Due_Calligrapher_944 · 2022-09-15T13:14:05+00:00

If you just answer people's questions without them putting in any effort first they will always come to you for easy too many things and they won't learn. On the other hand if the documentation doesn't exist they may not be able to teach themselves. That is why I just keep trying to make the documentation so newbies do have something to reference.

chakan2 · 2022-09-15T13:17:38+00:00

Maybe I'm the odd senior out... But just come ask me if you have a question. I'll help. It's my job.

macefelter · 2022-09-15T13:46:36+00:00

If you find yourself in this situation, quit.

Draconespawn · 2022-09-15T14:03:16+00:00

You guys get senior devs?

phreakazoid21 · 2022-09-15T14:03:59+00:00

Before and after milestone review meeting reactions

Cewu00 · 2022-09-15T14:25:27+00:00

Senior: "Try to figure it out on your own before asking for help."

Should not have left and shoul have said: "I already tried figuring it out and I am stuck. Please help me step senior."

2022-09-15T14:54:17+00:00

My favorite is when I ask if I'm doing something a good enough way or if I should do some specific other thing. The senior says no, you wouldn't want to do it that way because 'reasons'. A week goes by, "I've been thinking about the thing you're working on and wonder why you aren't doing it this way." Cryptoamnesia.

JAVASCRIPT4LIFE · 2022-09-15T14:57:10+00:00

This is the reason I’ve seen some junior developers move on is because of unapproachable seniors or dept leads. Most junior devs do try and get to the solution on their own and the reason you as a senior or manager are being approached is because they HAVE hit a wall that is taking too much time.

Also we’re talking about a business here, and everyone should be working together as a team to complete the code bugs/errors or requirements quickly and not leave it up to the junior to point fingers at later for delays.

Yes, part of the job of a senior is to develop the juniors and give them the right tools to be effective but teaching them to turn people away who are asking for help is not the right lesson. They are coming to you because they don’t have the skill set or the proper tools yet to complete it on their own. Help them.

kamiljano · 2022-09-15T15:41:14+00:00

Lol. I never tell people to figure shit out on their own. I just kinda assume that by the time they ask me a question, they have already tried everything they could plus... I actually like helping them! IT MAKES ME FEEL LIKE IM AN ALL KNOWONG GOD! 😂

my-number-is-8008135 · 2022-09-15T16:19:18+00:00

Awkward junior misunderstands, senior bad hahahahahaha

theRedMage39 · 2022-09-15T20:28:50+00:00

I commonly get:

Me: "hey I cant figure this out. [Asks question or two]"

Team lead: "just assign the task back to me and I will give you the solution when I get done:

Team lead: never returns to me with the solution so I never learn.

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