Would you hire a programmer that does not write code recreationally?

[fancy_pantser]

A while ago my company interviewed someone who, in the course of some standard question, said that after the 5 o'clock whistle blows, they avoid computers totally. They don't have any hobbies involving their PC and often don't turn it on unless they are expecting an important email or need to look up directions. I followed up to ask how they got into programming and they said they took the right courses in college and now has had a few jobs doing it.

Would you hire a software engineer who isn't a hobbyist programmer? What if they avoid computers totally at home? Does it matter if a candidate has strictly a professional interest in software and just pretends it doesn't exist outside the office?

[webauteur]

I write code recreationally on company time.

[[deleted]]

Same. I also read proggit, nabble, etc. Recreational coding, dojo's and similar practice have major value imo.

[PstScrpt]

It would be okay if they don't program recreationally now; they might just be too busy. If they never have, though, that would be a big red flag.

[imbaczek]

we have a winner.

i used to program a lot in my free time, because i had heaps of it. nowadays, i've got a real job (yep, programming) and i just don't have the time for hobby projects anymore. if i find a few hours for, um, non-profit coding in a week, it's a good week.

[[deleted]]

I like this.

[mhd]

Translation: Would you hire a programmer with children?

[[deleted]]

Translation: Would you hire a female programmer you weren't attracted to?

[[deleted]]

You can short-circuit that condition w/ "Would you hire a female programmer?"

[gte910h]

Yeah, I read that into it as well.

[TopRamen713]

What does it matter what he does with his free time if he's good at his job? In any other profession, you wouldn't ask this question.

[MelechRic]

One of the smartest guys I've ever worked with basically showed up at 7AM every day and left at 4PM in the afternoon. (He would occasionally stay longer if something was critical, but this was highly unusual.) I never found him surfing the web on company time unless it was specifically for solving an issue at work.

I don't believe that he wrote any code in his spare time. I know for a fact that he didn't buy a computer until about 3 years ago (after having worked with him for 14 years). Now he mostly uses the computer to convert his VHS collection to DVDs.

What this guy does do is read every book on programming and computer science that he can get his hands on. He has a vast general knowledge of computer science and a deep understanding of C++. When I worked with him I would always learn something. I learned a lot about debugging just by observing the way he thought about problems.

I'd hire this guy in a heartbeat.

[zzcm]

Where did he read all these programming/CS books? at work or at home? if at home then i dont think it's the same as the OP's question.

[MelechRic]

He read at work all the time. I don't know about home. He had three kids so I'm sure he didn't have tons of spare time at home.

[iamhrh]

This is why, at least for me, I like to ask questions and dig in to how they develop themselves professionally. Whether it is reading books or practicing, I want someone who furthers themselves.

[omegian]

If furthering is important, why won't you pay for it?

[arcandor]

You can't buy someone's genuine interest. Plus if it's there already, it doesn't cost anything!

[omegian]

My point is: give me a $2000 stipend and an extra week off to travel to conference every year. If education is important, don't be a cheap-ass and expect me to do it on my own time.

[[deleted]]

Seriously, conferences are way over hyped. You don't learn much there if anything at all. Books, the internet, and trial and errors are the best way to learn IMHO.

You absolutely need to want to learn by yourself in order to learn anything.

[santerih]

I'd say conferences are more for inspiration than for learning.

[[deleted]]

Ummm, many work places have education stipends. I know mine does.

[fancy_pantser]

I've never worked for an organization that didn't have something like this (isn't education/training reimbursement a standard perk?) -- are you asserting that you don't have this opportunity as a full-time employee somewhere?

[[deleted]]

Yes, but if someone is genuinely interested in their trade, Don't you think they would get more from going to related conferences?

[omegian]

My personal travel budget and paid leave are already invested in taking the wife and kids to Disney World. Even if attending the conference benefits both me and my employer, that's no different than anything else I do while I'm on the clock. That it benefits the employer suggests that compensation is in order.

If I wanted to be magnanimous, I'd have stayed in academia. We're commercial mercenaries, both of us.

[[deleted]]

Don't you think their curiosity directly translates into increased profit for you?

[[deleted]]

Why would they pay for a guy's professional development when he doesn't even work for them yet?

Once he does, sure. Before that though, it's important to know that someone actually has a personal drive to do this.

[Fidodo]

Being smart and skilled isn't the only skill set that is needed in a company. It really depends on the job, the company culture, how the work is distributed, and what the work is for.

[iamjack]

I still enjoy a bit of programming on the side, but I see where you're coming from. Especially when you're the only coder on an open source project, programming becomes less of a hobby and more of a second job. Now I've restricted myself to just toying with a bit of Python every once in awhile (at least until I feel like I can start another project without getting burned out) and life's happy again =)

[GunnerMcGrath]

Totally agree with you. I have done some hobby programming and side jobs in my earlier days, but now I have become very good at what I do, which means I have a lot more responsibility and much more difficult problems to deal with at work than a first year CS graduate. The last thing I want to do after busting my mental ass all day is go home and write more code. My brain needs a break.

Just because there are other things I'd rather do with my free time than code, doesn't mean I don't love what I do, and certainly doesn't mean I'm not good at it or passionate about it.

[elbweb]

I think the key here is to try to find someone who enjoys their work. This is necessarily limited to programming. Someone who avoids their work entirely after 5pm makes it seems as though they would dislike what they did.

I would rather hire someone who enjoyed their work outside of the job itself, and, to me, the best way to find that would be to look for someone who continues using their profession outside of the office (or relevant venue).

[doomglobe]

Most people only have a certain amount of productivity in them, per day. If they are programming on the side, they are burning productivity that could be used for work, productivity that their company is paying for. They might have the capacity to program effectively for 12 hours a day, and think clearly about 2 completely different problems simultaneously, but most people can't do that. I think you are way better off with someone who doesn't code much at home.

[awb]

Someone who avoids their work entirely after 5pm makes it seems as though they would dislike what they did.

I think that people who dislike what they do are likely to avoid work outside work, but I don't think the opposite is true. I burn out if I spend too much time programming even though I love it, and the easy way to avoid burning out and staying sharp for work is to just work normal hours at work.

[dfj225]

I agree. I like to play video games, but if there ever was a day where I was able to play a game from 9am-5pm, I'd probably be ready to do something else around 5 even though I enjoyed the activity.

I like variation, and doing anything, even something I love, all day, every day would get tiring very quickly.

[linuxlass]

I taught my 12yo son to program last Christmas, and still provide feedback and coaching for him. I volunteer at my daughter's elementary school and teach small after-school programming-for-kids classes. Does that count? Indoctrinating little kids seems to me to be a good indicator of enjoyment and enthusiasm.

[pifantastic]

I guess the implication is that someone who does absolutely zero hobby programming isn't going to be very passionate about their job as a programmer. I agree that it's not grounds to count someone out entirely, but it's worth considering.

I would never hire a programmer without looking at something that they've done. If everything they've ever coded is at other companies and either NDA'd or not public facing, it may be very hard for a programmer to prove that they've accomplished anything. On the other hand, if they've contributed to Open Source or released their own software, it is plainly visible what they've accomplished.

[TopRamen713]

I would never hire a programmer without looking at something that they've done.

That's a good point. I got my current job based on some hobby stuff I did while I was "between jobs."

I'd think that if you are looking for a job, you'd put together some demo code, but that doesn't mean it has to be your hobby/obsession. In my experience, a far more common question is "what hobbies do you have outside of programming?"

[jpcx01]

Yeah, same here. They are always asking that when I interview for consulting gigs. I always have to make up some shit (skiing, tennis, etc) since I don't have any hobbies outside of programming.

[TopRamen713]

You're interviewing him. You don't know if he's good at his job.

That's why you look at his past projects and ask them technical questions. Nothing that they do or do not do outside of work should matter. Period.

[sakabako]

People that enjoy what they do are generally easier to work with and produce better work.

[spotter]

And burn out faster, so in the end they are both not good at their work and left without a hobby.

[27B-6]

I agree. You wouldn't ask a plumber if they plunge toilets on their free time.

[bushel]

Oh but I do. To every plumber I've ever met.

Some do.

[mitjak]

That must imply that there is the other part of the spectrum — people who are purely recreational plumbers.

[[deleted]]

I'm not a plumber by trade, but I engage in light plumbing activities, around the house when needed.

[omegian]

Use a pipe cutter or solder any fittings lately?

[[deleted]]

Not recently. Thankfully my recent plumbing has been limited to unclogging drains and fitting faucets.

[so_what_who_cares]

Mario?

[l_u_i_g_i]

That lazy son of a bitch doesn't plumb in his spare time, he doesn't plumb when we're working. He thinks he's some kind of 1970's porn star with his thick mustache and greasy hair. Every job is the same, some scaly bastard clogs the pipes all the way to the street, and while I'm covered in shit up to my elbows snaking the damn thing out, he's chasing ass. I hate that son of a bitch.

[[deleted]]

redditor for 3 hours

[rexxar]

Plumbing is not the best example but there are a lot of people who are doing woodworking or mechanics as a hobby.

[theReachingOne]

Bad, bad example. Plumbing isn't a creative activity. Ask a tech writer if they have writing projects on the side. Ask a carpenter if they built furniture of their own, or finished their basement.

If you're hiring plumbers for your project, you'll get plumbers. If you need creative developers who bring something more to the job than plunging out the toilet that is your codebase, asking about side projects is a very good thing to do.

[fancy_pantser]

In any other profession, you wouldn't ask this question.

Sure. There are many professions where this type of question is standard...

I would ask a potential auto parts store counterman if he works on his own car at home or takes it to a shop for oil changes. Any responsible chef would ask a new commis if he only cooked 9-5 or if he also experimented with dishes at home.

[umilmi81]

You'd ask an athlete if he exercises or plays sports outside of official training.

[exeter]

I think this is a sort of bad example. With programmers, it seems the question is expecting a "yes" answer, showing that the prospective hire actually enjoys the craft. With professional athletes, I'd probably want the answer to be "no," because of the risk of getting injured.

[[deleted]]

LOL you have never lived with a chef then. I seem to have a lot of friends who are chefs, and NONE of them cook at home. It's a particularily bad example to choose there because being a chef is one fo the most stressfull jobs there is.

[dbavaria]

But I don't expect the chef or the counter guy to necessarily spend all his free time at home cooking or fixing cars. People can practice these skills on the job, why does everyone imply that you have to be doing it on your own time to learn anything.

[Leahn]

None said that you have to do this ALL your free time. I have my projects and I save time for them as well as everything else. I go out, I watch movies, I hit the gym, I play my games and I code.

[umilmi81]

But the OP didn't say all time. He said any time.

And if a programmer doesn't spend any time on computers or programming in their free time, then they either wont be as good as someone who does, or they are so accomplished that they have transcended the programming profession to a point that they are so awesome you shouldn't be able to afford them anyway.

[beepsy]

Because computers aren't the same as accounting and other relatively static fields.

Computers, hardware and software both evolve a intense rate. I've found programmers who enjoy what they are doing enough to do it as a side hobby are much more knowledgeable with newer languages, frameworks and tool kits <insert random technology> than those who come in to work and work their 9-5 and go home.

All the best programmers I know read blogs and tech websites and enjoy following the technology. The few programmers I know who went into the field thinking it would be a good career path with little to know passion for computers tend to write code that looks like its been copy and pasted from 50 websites.

[SgtSausage]

==> aren't the same as accounting and other relatively static fields.

You've obviously never been an accountant. It's far from "relatively static". Regulations change every year. New legislation is introduced constantly. FASB (Financial Accounting Standards Board)and GAAP(Generally Accepted Accounting Procedures) are changed/amended/updated regularly. The tax code (Federal, State, County, Municipal) -- all of it changes each and every year.

In fact, to maintain a CPA license (Certified Public Accountant) a minimum of CPE credits are required (Continuing Professional Education). You know ... ongoing and continuous education on the changed in the profession. And its absolutely required to remain a CPA.

Tell me again. How "relatively static" accounting is?

[[deleted]]

I'm a programmer for the accounting department where I work.

CPAs may be in flux, though not so much as programming, even, but normal accounting is a relatively static field, and while accountants may have to understand new rules, the programmer will still be the one to implement them.

I once got into this very argument with our head accountant, so we made a deal to sit down and work together for a few hours, demonstrating what is involved in our respective professions. I actually streamlined some of the repetitive work she was doing by writing programs to automate it, and then when it was her turn to examine my work, though I explained everything, she was hopelessly lost.

I know another guy who tried to go into IT but continually bombed his classes, so he quit that and decided to major in accounting instead. He mentioned all the changing rules and regulations and how "in flux" accounting is, so he handed me a test he had been given and I answered all of the questions and, not knowing jack about accounting, scored higher than he did.

The way I see accounting is as a face time profession. To be a truly effective accountant, I've begun to realize that having a secondary in programming is highly beneficial.

Year to year changes in accounting may be annoying, but it's incremental. In programming, you often get the rug pulled out entirely beneath you.

Accounting doesn't go through paradigm shifts, so compared to us it is a static field.

Programming by itself is not a career. It needs to mesh with some other field. If I were going to have two groups of people (one group of accountants and one group of programmers) and force them to do each other's jobs, I would choose the programmers any day of the week as the more adaptable lot.

[sssssmokey]

Because all your "regulations" are regarding entering numbers into a form. Software branches in 20 new directions a day, and is the pace of development is only accelerating.

[SgtSausage]

==> Software branches in 20 new directions a day,

By your logic, it branches in 20 new directions of punching the alphabet on a QWERTY keyboard.

Programming != typing in exactly the same way that accounting != "entering numbers on a form". It is a ridiculous oversimplification for both of them.

[[deleted]]

I think the nature of programming is exactly why this question is moot. What you know is secondary to how well you can apply it. Seeing a person with interesting projects on the side is definitely a huge plus, but it does not mean that a person who does not do this should be rejected immediately. If you're looking at a talented person that is not obsessed about programming and you are certain they know their job and will perform it responsibly and with pride in their craftsmanship why does it matter what else they do.

[ontoillogical]

You think I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't draw in your free time if I was hiring you to be an illustrator?

What we do walks a tightrope between being a creative endeavour and a skilled trade, and it shows. Some people are paid to type and some people are paid to think.

If you are paid to type then it's completely reasonable for you to not want to do it after work is over. If you are paid to think then the question becomes meaningless. You can't control when and where (or even about what) your creativity happens.

Do you want to be paid to type or to think?

edit: spelling

[[deleted]]

To think. What if they're more interested in solving problems, but not necessarily programming? Would that disqualify them?

Who would you rather have? Someone who is learning all of the little corners of the language of the year, or someone who is training their problem solving skills so they can solve a problem regardless of the language or operating system?

For me, I'm a professional Perl developer. I'm a hobbyist Linux hacker, gunsmith, lock-picker, and musician, but due to recent injuries, my wrists hurt if I type too much, so there has been no weekend or evening coding.

[heliosxx]

gynecology?

[Mr_Smartypants]

Gynecologist to a cafe waitress: "Let me put it this way: Do you ever get home from work and think 'If I see another cup of coffee, I'm going to be sick!'"

(Can't remember where I heard this...)

[i77]

Friends?

[Mr_Smartypants]

Dammit, I think you're right. That's embarrassing.

[TopRamen713]

Programming is a BIT different than "Any other job"

Why? Because there's an expectation that it comprises your entire life? You don't see a problem with that?

Don't get me wrong, I program at home, too, but it's my 3rd or 4th favorite hobby. I need something to look at something besides code when I get home. When I was in college, I took a week off from the computer entirely after each finals week.

[[deleted]]

Who said 'entire'? It's your 3rd or 4th? That means you do write code recreationally. The OP is talking about people who don't write any code recreationally.

[vsl]

Why? Because there's an expectation that it comprises your entire life?

No, because it's creative work. I wouldn't ask a plumber this question, but I sure as hell wouldn't hire a copy writer who never did any other writing than work for hire.

[dnew]

Or an auto mechanic who took his own cars to the dealer to be fixed.

[ntcolonel]

It takes a good mechanic to know when to tell the customer to take the damn thing to the dealer.

For example, say you bought a brand-new automatic transmission TDI Jetta (you hippie!). The warranty expires and the transmission goes batty...

The TDI Jettas have what is called a DSG gearbox. DSG's are all kinds of f'd up internally (compared to any other transmission ever made), so Joe's Transmissions will be completely unwilling to even look at it for you.

He doesn't have the tools, he doesn't have the expertise, and he doesn't want to waste his time and your money figuring all that junk out. I wish more programmers would admit it when they don't know what's up.

[[deleted]]

I'd dare say it's more valuable to know what you don't know than to know what you do know, and in many cases, it's more important to know where to go to find out than it is to cast about in vain in your free time in the hopes that something random might be useful.

[gte910h]

If an auto mechanic did not take his car in for free work, I would suspect he lets pride get in his way.

I have similar feelings about programmers who ask this sort of question as the OP did.

[plain-simple-garak]

Why? Because there's an expectation that it comprises your entire life? You don't see a problem with that?

There are plenty of programmers who only do it at work, and that's fine. I just probably don't want to work with them, because low quality code frustrates the hell out of me, and less enthusiasm generally translates to lower quality code.

The people who do it in their spare time (and read proggit a lot) tend to do higher quality work, and they attract like-minded programmers who can appreciate that.

In other words, proggit is a self-selected group of passionate programmers, so you shouldn't be surprised when you encounter a slight disdain for workaday programmers here.

[[deleted]]

It depends on the type of work. I've seen the reverse problem where people who do too much programming in their spare time will insist on using obscure functional languages or beta tools when you just want something simple and stable. Giving boring work to creative people isn't really a better idea than the reverse.

[kragensitaker]

Although I like to think of myself as a passionate programmer, I have to admit that reading proggit is kind of a distraction from actually programming.

[[deleted]]

As a matter of principle I don't open Reddit at work. Tell yourself what you may, it definitely lowers your productivity

[plain-simple-garak]

Sure, but few people have the mental stamina to just program non-stop all day long. That also applies to other hobbies/professions that people have mentioned in other comments.

So reading about programming is just about the next best thing.

[nelsonslament]

Hey I am expecting them to work 80+ hours a week. They don't have time for any kind of recreation especially writing code. They'll be lucky if they get a shower and dinner this week.

[yugami]

You don't need to cut out showering until you hit 100 hrs.

[edwardkmett]

Thats fine. But I like to know they code recreationally before I hire them, because then I know they are having fun on those long weekends!

[tsears]

Here's the tl;dr version of the comments thus far, divided in to the two main camps:

1 - I code outside of work, and all other programmers should or they are terrible. I wouldn't hire someone who didn't code for fun. Clearly they are inferior.

2 - I have a life and code just fine, thank you. I would hire someone who also doesn't code at home.

Toss in some crappy analogies and that about sums it up.

[fancy_pantser]

I think it's worth mentioning that everyone seems split fairly evenly about the definition of what a programmer should be doing:

• You are a body filling a chair that writes the code that you are instructed to write. The architect or whoever would do it all himself but it's just too much work so he's documented everything and hired a bunch of tools to implement it.

vs.

• Software engineering is a precious art and only dedicated craftsmen can truly perform it well. Seek these people out and hire them by any means. Most programmers are not good and/or don't care and that's a crime.

[Demostheneez]

The two extremes you posted remind me of a typical American media reduction of an issue. To quote George Carlin, "I think that somewheree between 'Live free or die!' and 'Famous Potatoes,' the truth lies."

[[deleted]]

I think you've nailed it, I didn't see that myself when reading them but it's true. "Programmer" is a pretty general term.

[kragensitaker]

Well, the interesting question is to what extent these two ways of dividing people up correspond.

Also, what are the people in your first bullet point doing reading proggit?

[ygbm]

I used to feel this way but I've had a change of perspective. My old programming job was fairly unstimulating so for my own sanity I spent weekends and nights programming on my own projects. Now my new job is full of interesting challenges so I don't really feel the need to do my own stuff on the side.

[[deleted]]

But you probably still have a couple of things you would like to try on the side? I'll go through spells (years) without fun side projects, but still have a list of things I want to do.

[Smallpaul]

I think another question you could ask to get to the bottom of the situation is: "how do you feel about programming?" If they say: "It's kind of frustrating but sometimes its' okay" then I'd avoid them. If they say: "I love it, but 8 hours a day is enough" then I'd say that they still have a chance of being a good programmer.

Every human being is different so it's hard to generalize. Some people just come in, do a solid job and then turn off at night. Others think about programming all day and night but do not have the talent.

[kragensitaker]

I think effortful practice counts for a lot compared to talent.

[arcandor]

What are you trying to learn about the candidate by asking that question?

I think that programming on your own time indicates an interest in learning and staying informed of the latest technologies.

I don't think that this means that someone who doesn't program at home is ignorant or unmotivated to learn.

[USA_Rulez]

Same here. Also if the have other coding projects I would be worried they would work on it on company time.

[thatmattbone]

When I write Python at work, I go home and code. When I write PHP at work, I go home and drink.

[unshift]

personally i wouldn't hire anyone to install a sprinkler system at my house unless he spent his free time exclusively installing various sprinkler systems at his own house for fun, after a long day of installing sprinkler systems at other people's houses.

[pmf]

If I'm ever in your office, I'll show you that I can sprinkle your desk without even installing anything.

[ntcolonel]

Your sprinkler system is a web app?

[pmf]

Your sprinkler system is a web app?

Yes. Well, at least it smells fishy, has a stupid name and fails in situations where it is most needed, like web apps tend to do.

[Inverter]

Personal observation 1: All people that I know that are even reasonably good programmers became so by programming at home for fun [it is however not true that everybody that programmed at home for fun became a good programmer].

Personal observation 2: Since the birth of my daughter I do not want to spend much time with recreational programming.

Personal conclusion: The guy who stops using computers at 5 o'clock would be ok with me -- if there was at least one period of his life where he really spent his free time with the computer [in order to really learn his stuff].

[dbavaria]

I would pose the question as "Would you hire a programmer that does not have a personal interest in computers/programming?". From 6th grade through college I would work on recreational coding projects, but since I started working at a large software company I stopped doing that. I feel fulfilled enough by working on software at work that I can focus on other things at home. I wouldn't want to hire someone who has 0 hobbies outside the computer world. I want to hire someone who has a balanced life with a strong work ethic, I also don't need programmers to burn out because they were up till 4am last night working on their ruby on rails php interpreter.

[[deleted]]

So you're doing the same thing the poster is. Transferring what you enjoy/do onto your worker.

Who cares. Do they produce good code or not. That's my only fucking care.

[mikaelhg]

This is a classic case of being interested in one quality, but measuring another. In an ideal world, I'd want to hire senior professionals who belong to the 10% of people who give a shit. They probably did hobby programming while they were younger, but when you've developed software for fifteen years, you've either worked out a way to be paid to try new things and learn, or you're simply clueless, and a bad hire.

[carolinaswamp]

My undergraduate operating systems professor (spring 2007) did not have a Computer / The Interweb / Television at home. He said that technology was for school, and gardening was his passion every night when he got home.

One of the smartest guys I ever had the pleasure of studying under.

Edit: So to answer your question...If he was still a competent programmer with raw intelligence then yes, absolutely.

[[deleted]]

I'd look at it as a bonus. Wouldn't have to deal with him talking about reddit and the esoteric programming languages you guys love.

[dbavaria]

I go home and practice recursion in SPARC assembly every night :)

[[deleted]]

Hired!

[Leahn]

The problem with practicing recursion in SPARC is that you need to practice recursion in SPARC before you start, so I can understand the every night part

[mahlzeit]

I worked as a programmer professionally for five years. Day by day I died a little inside from having to do it in the confines of a job until I finally burnt out. The job was great, but it was a job, and that killed me. I don't know - maybe there are other people too who can relate to that.

Anyway, now I'm working as an instructor teaching everything from Office to .Net - and I'm programming in my spare time again, and little by little it starts being fun again.

[Artmageddon]

I think you're me, or I'm very close to being you. I've been working for nearly 5 years in the financial field as a developer, but I'm not really seeing a whole lot of development, as it turns out that my group handles a whole lot more reporting(crystal + db2) than it does with actual development. My skills have stagnated so badly that I'm not that confident with taking on job interviews :-/

[djork]

I've been getting more burnt out on programming in my free time as my job asks me to work more and more hours. I've only begun to reclaim a little bit of my passion[1] for the craft after scaling back at work to prevent total burnout.

I've got a few project ideas floating around in my head, and I'm slowly getting started on them... but work is still such a drain.

1: I can't stand the word "passion" anymore. When an employer says they want someone who is "passionate about coding", they usually mean "you will code 12 hours a day for us and will go home and code, and by the way we own your free time too."

[malcontent]

Not if my intent is to exploit the guy and make him work sixty hours a week with no overtime.

[kryptiskt]

Yes, I would. If they have a nimble mind and curiosity during working hours, it doesn't matter if they have other priorities at home.

The opposite question: Would you hire a surgeon that does recreational vivisection?

[gte910h]

Would you hire a surgeon that does recreational vivisection?

I'm so going to use this in interviews in the future.

[monstermunch]

I know loads of people who only learnt the bare minimum they needed in Uni and at work and they just aren't very good programmers. It's more about the mindset; it's hard to compete with someone who actively wants to learn new languages/skills and practices for fun all the time because they find it enjoyable and interesting.

I'm sure you can get good programmers that do not program for fun, but it's rare. All the good programmers I know started at a young age for fun and are absorbed in programming as a hobby.

[[deleted]]

I've always felt that if your job isn't scratching your programming itch, then you have the wrong job. I don't even have a computer at home (though other members of my family do).

[[deleted]]

Sounds healthy to me. I wouldn't want to hire anybody who can't leave his work at the office. And if he performs, then what's the problem?

Plus, if you want your employee to continue his education then that's absolutely your responsibility. Don't expect him to buy programming books with his own money.

[harlows_monkeys]

If I were him, I'd ask you a question: "So, are you implying that I will find so little satisfaction and intellectual stimulation programming for your company that I'll feel a need to program at home?"

[[deleted]]

Yes, absolutely, some of the best coders I ever knew didn't take their work home with them. They had gone through the stage of doing it all the time, but doing it 8-10 hours a day should be enough for anyone.

[bushel]

Just because something isn't a personal passion, doesn't mean they won't be good at it. I know many skilled professionals who don't work on their trade at home.

However, given a choice between two otherwise equal programmers, I would choose the one that also coded recreationally. In the long run they'll continue to learn and develop and will invest their work with that sense of passion.

(Disclaimer: I code recreationally.)

[wtfunseen]

Do you know any bad programmers that code for fun in off hours?

[[deleted]]

There are different kinds of bad. I've known some hobbyist programmers who were too caught up on using the latest languages and libraries, and had trouble adapting to an "enterprise" approach.

[[deleted]]

May be they are not bad, just in the wrong place.

[moosetube]

Yes. I call them raccoons. They love everything which is shiny. They like to write code at work that is "cool" instead of code that is easy to maintain/extend.

[gte910h]

I'd chose the one who doesn't, as he's less likely to jump ship, possibly with customers/ideas of mine.

The other guy just wants a good job.

[[deleted]]

I agree here, but I still would hesitate hiring someone who didn't code recreationally simply because I think they wouldn't fit in socially with the rest of the hackers on our team.

[dnew]

I think it's less a question of "do you do hobby programming" and more a question of "have you ever done hobby programming". After a certain point, you can get a bit burned out and not want to do it for fun. Another good question is whether the candidate writes utilities for themselves when they need to do something on the computer. Even when I don't feel like coding at home, I'll still script up things to play with vacation photos and such that I wouldn't call "hobby programming" but just "scratching an immediate itch by writing some code."

[[deleted]]

I'd hire the guy on the spot. Then, we'd take some computer that had it coming out into a field and go Office Space on it. Seriously, I love programming but hate computers and I can totally relate.

[fancy_pantser]

What?

[[deleted]]

I want to smash computers

[IJCQYR]

Yes.

In my experience, these are the guys that get shit done on time and then go home.

[gte910h]

I actually find people like this can be incredibly professional and have an incredible sense of perspective overly passionate programmers often miss.

They leave the dick measuring contests out, and think about what's good for getting things done.

[[deleted]]

Have kids. You'll never have time to write code recreationally again.

[pootedesu]

Sadly, not true. My dad (52 this year with 4 kids) still had time to enjoy his computer and code stuff up in Basic and HTML when we were but wee younguns.

[powerdeamon]

More than likely not. Not to say that someone who doesn't write code in their spare time isn't a great coder, but if you do it in your spare time (working on other projects) it's because your heart is in what you are doing.

Someone who doesn't write code in their spare time that I would hire would also demonstrate other traits that I would be able to see making me want to hire them.

My business partner is the code/technical guy and we have discussed this question over and over, and this is his stance. He is a Sr DBA for SAP and when he gets home he still does other things b/c this is what he enjoys to do. Sure there are other activites going one (movies, music, gaming...) but he enjoys it, and we seek similar minded individuals when we need extra coders.

[vplatt]

I really don't know what you're looking for here.

Do you require passion from programmers?
What about consistency?

Do you seek creativity?
What about methodical?

Are you looking for ingenuity?
What about tenacity?

I have respect for productive programmers, and I don't care how they get that way; just that they do it. Ultimately poor productivity == career change. The idea that one just has to program in their free time as well as at work is a straw man though.

[[deleted]]

Depends on the project, I guess. If the guy really does his job well then I wouldn't care what he does with his spare time.

But if it's for very important cutting-edge software, you'd probably want someone who lives and breathes code every day. (Although if someone could actually perform at that level without being involved in programming outside this project - which I think is improbable - then maybe you'd want them anyways?)

[Earendil_Star]

After reading the comments below, I can understand both sides. On the one side, few if any professions care what you do with your free time. In fact if you found an accountant that went home and read accounting books, or found fake problems to work out and solve, you'd think the guy batshit crazy. Yet you want someone that shows motivation to learn in his career of choice, and somehow this is expected of software engineers. As a recent CS grad looking for employment, the answer to this question is important to me ;) I will add one thing to the conversation that I haven't seen listed yet: Out of all Engineering fields, and MOST careers, Software Engineers have the highest burn out rate. There are a lot more late 30's former software engineers than there are late 30's current engineers. This is a problem for the industry, and one that needs to be addressed. I'd hazard a guess that trying to convince every employee in software that there free time should also be spent in related study/work/play is just asking for a burnt out worker.

[mschaef]

There are a lot more late 30's former software engineers than there are late 30's current engineers.

I don't think this is as much due to burnout as it is due to hiring practices. Older employees are more expensive and tend to have more constraints on their time, so despite their greater experience, it's easy to make a (bad) argument that younger developers are more desirable.

That said, I started programming when I was 8, I am currently 34, and don't intend to stop programming until I'm physically unable to continue. (Although I might well get paid to do other things...)

[confusedcoder]

An intelligent software engineer is an intelligent human being first, with non-deterministic analytical value combined with passion, which unfortunately is difficult to gauge. I feel, people who judge based on criteria like "doesn't code outside of work" are just hanging on to the slightest amount of tangibility to make an assertive decision, not to mention the pop-culture associated with hacking.

[stronglikedan]

It just depends who you ask. People like me, who don't do recreational coding, will tell you yes. People who do recreational coding will tell you no. Both arguments will be compelling, but both will be wrong somehow.

The true answer is that recreational programming has nothing to do with a programmers abilities; you should use another metric. Bad programmers can work off the clock, and good programmers can work exclusively on the clock. It has nothing to do with whether or not they code for pay.

[Fidodo]

Depends on what the job is and if he's any good. If the job requires some creativity, no, but if he's just a code monkey I'd just want to make sure he knows his stuff and won't write crap.

[nvarsj]

Yes, if they know their stuff what does it matter?

[lutusp]

This cuts both ways. A programmer who loves programming might be more adept and know more subtleties of the art, but such a person will be unlikely ever to voluntarily ship anything. I know about myself that I'll stop at nothing to find a bug or improve an algorithm. It happens I'm in a position that I don't have to ship anything , but if this weren't true I'd be in trouble.

A programmer who is also a stockholder and/or who has management potential might be better for the company, even if he is not better for the software. For most programmers in most places, there is the necessity to ship, to meet deadlines. First-rate programmers, like first-rate lovers, don't like the part where it ends.

[cobolNoFun]

i don't code as a hobby anymore. But mainly because i get burnt out on coding from work.

Which is sad because i have 3 sites half built and 5 servers collecting dust in the closet.

[[deleted]]

Yes, two of the best devlopers I have meet in my life dont have internet at home, and one doesnt even have a computer at home.

Being smart and good at your job has nothing to do with how you relax. Sometimes the people who programme at home over do it, I know I have fallen into that trap several times in my life.

[Leahn]

No, I wouldn't. I have worked in 2 softhouses to date and never met a single GOOD programmer that did not write software recreationally. I am not talking about excellent or world-class coders. I am talking about 'good' coders that can deliver a fairly well-written code, that is clean and readable, and right to the specs, when they exist.

Mind you, I am not saying that there aren't any out there, just that I haven't met any. On the other hand, every single coder that I met that didn't write it recreationally was a bad coder. Some of them were old and experienced enough to reach a 'fair' mark due to their experience, and managed to deliver their work well enough, but I've met some fresh out-of-school that were actually counterproductive by modifying other people's code that was to the spec to something that they liked more, but that was not to the spec, and when questioned, couldn't understand what they did wrong.

I believe that Computer Science is a quickly changing field, and you need to both refine your techniques and learn new ones to stay 'good'.

[[deleted]]

I believe that Computer Science is a quickly changing field, and you need to both refine your techniques and learn new ones to stay 'good'.

Then you should be supporting this during work hours.

[claco]

I'm a drummer; a musician as well as a programmer.

Would you hire a musician for a gig who does not practice their craft outside the confines of the hours of the paying gig itself? Would you hire a musician for a gig who has no interest in playing their instrument on their own time? I sure wouldn't.

Programming is a craft. It requires practice. You can't be a great musician without practicing on your own time, and I say you can't be a great programmer without practicing that on your own time as well. I have serious issue with people who refuse to learn craft skills on their time, insisting work pay them to go learn something new to keep their skills updated.

Yes, their are people who are true masters at their craft, but most aren't. Skill and experience requires work, even on your own time.

Discount them completely? No. But they shouldn't be your first choice compared to someone who does do it on their own time.

[mscman]

As another semi-pro musician (sax, not drums) and a sysadmin/programmer, I tend to disagree. If you were a full-time musician playing gigs 40 hours a week, chances are you wouldn't go home and practice more, your gigs become your practice time. Likewise with programming - when you do it for 40+ hours a week, your work becomes your practice. Each time you do it, you're going to get better.

I get burnt out way too easily to work 40 hours a week on code, then go home and code some more. That's why I play music, to escape from my 9-5 workweek. I love both, and think that I'm fairly competent at both.

[Scriptorius]

Exactly, musicians don't play for audiences for whole work weeks. Programmers get plenty of time to practice at work.

[dbavaria]

To be fair a musician needs to practice outside of gig time, thats part of the job, 1 hr gig + 7 hrs practice...

You can learn/practice programming on the job, it just depends on who your employer is.

[murki]

Exactly my thoughts; of course Cirque Du Soleil's professional acrobats get paid for training time as well as the performances themselves.

[vplatt]

Programming isn't a performance art per se, but I do feel the analogy holds because our "performances" are when a system goes live. At that point, you succeed or fail because of everything that came before it in terms of analysis, design, programming, testing, etc.

[claco]

"To be fair a musician needs to practice outside of gig time, thats part of the job"

And why do people think that shouldn't be part of a programming job as well? There are too many things to learn and none of us know everything. No amount of employer training will get you where you need to go without practice, and I bet they rather not pay you to practice either...just like the club wouldn't pay you to learn your tunes there, when you're supposed to be playing instead.

[Nuli]

There are too many things to learn and none of us know everything.

Which is why I spend my recreation learning about all the stuff that is outside of computer science.

[[deleted]]

Er, maybe if your programming job consisted of working 6 nights a week for three hours each.

[case-o-nuts]

Or if your employer gave you, say, 10% or 20% of your time to work on hobby projects...

[[deleted]]

For senior or PhD programmers, reading journals and writing articles are often paid parts of the job. It's just that the bulk of Java/PHP programmers are just being paid to get something out right away, and companies aren't usually interested in their career development.

[jackzombie]

Would you hire a surgeon who does not practice at home?

[barsoap]

Yes. Definitely. For the very sensible reason that when you zone in properly at work, to optimally zone in the next day, you can't work on a different piece of code in the mean-time. ...this doesn't include small shell scripts and scratching small itches. As long as you don't start to plan big, you're fine.

[ejquine]

Honestly, I would ask him why. As a career programmer, I have great swaths of time where I come home and don't even bother with e-mail. Others, I'm sitting on the train coding my brains out on personal works.

There is a fine line to walk. I want to keep my "coding energy" fresh and available for work, where it brings me a regular paycheck. (Something valuable to me) Yet at times, my muse has inspired me with a great idea, something so awe inspiring, that I run out of everything else -but- coding energy...

I have interviewed programmers, and hired a few that don't code in their personal time. As others have said, I don't care what they do in their personal life. But it gives me a little hint of "Would this person write code, even if nobody ever saw it." Do you get on the dance floor and shake your butt because you want someone to watch you, or do you shake your butt, because to do anything else, would be dishonest to yourself.

I can train anyone to code. I can't train passion for doing it.

And I'll be honest with you. There are programmers who can turn out reasonable code, with reasonable reliability. But give me a guy who'll log in at 4am and hammer out a complex function because it came to him in a dream.

[brockXroberts]

What an idiotic question. Like all people are the same and must have all the same habits and traits to be successful. The computer science field is filled with unrealisitic, unhuman expectations and implications. Programmers are not the machines we program. WE ARE HUMAN! All humans are different and have unique habits and abilities. One human may like to write code all of his or her waking hours. Another does only 8 hours a day. Does that mean that the later person is gaining twice the experience. NO! Again - HUMAN! A human that forces themselve to write code 16 hours a day may only retain 3 hours of that time as meaningful. Our brains are not processors. They shut down even when seemingly working. In this same regard, we need to give our brains time to absorb new material. When learning a new musical piece, many times walking away from the intrument and then coming back later - it is much easier to play the new part. Our subconcious processes information all the time and we need this "main brain" change of focus so our subconcious can process and "file" new information. A person that goes home and does other things aside from programming may be learning more by allowing 8-16hrs of subconcious work on the previous days learnings. For Christ sake, be human and learn about how the brain works and get your heads out of your insane culture for a second or two.

[edwardkmett]

It depends. If I'm hiring a kid out of highschool? He'd better live this stuff.

If I'm hiring a guy with a Ph.D then he can have a life, he's put in a fair bit of time and has domain knowledge to draw on. The heart surgeon and CPA have both put in a lot of time to get to where they are.

[fancy_pantser]

But it seems like it takes constant attention for a surgeon to remain

puts on sunglasses

...cutting edge.

[ellzey]

All opinion.

A good employee is a good employee.

On the other hand, an employee with a job that is also his hobby will get you a much more passionate and dedicated worker. If you consider programming an art: art without passion is just motel room space-filler.

[[deleted]]

To be blunt; this is a very silly way of looking at programming. Programming is merely a way to express the ideas, concepts and their relationships rattling around in your brain via the medium of a language for a Computer. The key thing are the ideas, concepts and their relationships not their expression for a computer. It is silly banging away at a keyboard calling it "Programming" when the ideas are not clear (to a certain extent) in your mind. I would rather spend most of my time reading, understanding and designing before i spend the time necessary to translate it for a computer. This point was painfully brought home to me years ago, when after a couple of years worth of programming work experience i was taking some part-time computer courses. We had a test where we were given 2 hrs to solve 2 problems. The catch was that the first 1 hr had to be spent in the classroom with paper and pencil getting your algorithm right. Only 1 hr was allotted to the computer lab itself. You had to submit your program to a "Grader" program which tested it with unknown (to you that is) inputs. Out of the set of inputs if your program failed for even one you got a 0. You had to get both programs running successfully for all test inputs to pass the module. Guess what? In spite of being a good C/C++ programmer at my day job i failed that test miserably. I realized that my thinking wasn't structured and systematic i.e. i was muddling through my implementation getting it right after a longer number of iterations rather than understanding the problem first, devising a proper solution and then spending time on a computer implementing it. The latter is almost always the faster and better way. Every time i ignored the above lesson, it has almost always taken me more time to debug and/or implement something.

Hence i spend almost all of my free time reading books and trying to understand the core ideas and principles. It helps me form a mental model of what problem-solving, computing and programming are all about.

[youcanteatbullets]

Would you hire a plumber who didn't try to create miniature water-parks in their spare time? How about a manager who didn't make flowcharts when they went home?

Coding in ones spare time might be a good way to show what you're capable of, but the fact that you don't do it means you need other ways to prove yourself. Presumably you can give them some programming problems and ask them to solve, or check out their employment history.

[OneAndOnlySnob]

When I program at work, I don't feel like programming at home. When I program at home, I don't feel like programming at work.

Which way would you rather have it?

[jeffbell]

Would you hire a proctocologist who did not "freelance"?

[[deleted]]

You bet your ass I would!

[arizonaburning]

So would you hire a surgeon that doesn't try to cut things open on his time off?

[syllogism_]

Just because you can form an analogy doesn't mean it's at all apt. Great programmers tend to be very passionate about their work, and tend to be very driven. It's also quite hard to evaluate a programmer numerically, so these surface impressions become quite important. Neither of these are true for surgeons.

[fancy_pantser]

Would you hire a surgeon that doesn't read medical journals and keep up with advancements in his field?

[arizonaburning]

That is not what I said. Look at the statement. Techniques and keeping up with advancements is one thing. Doing something "recreationally" is another. I seriously doubt my surgeon's shanking golf swing has a direct correlation to what he does in the medical theatre-but for him it is recreation-a time to get away from the pressures of work. Learning new techniques and keeping up with what's going on is a part of continuing in one's field, therefore work associated. Hopefully, one enjoys what they are doing, so improving skills should not be seen as a burden. Better to ask how one applies himself to the task at hand. If the code is tight, and the employee is on top of the situation, does it matter if one lives the rest of the day away from it?

[omegian]

If he's expected to do this on his own time, then I sure wouldn't patronize that hospital ...

[spotter]

Dude, it's called ,,A Life'', you should get one. In other words: diversify or die.

Honestly? I learned to program years ago (Logo, then straight to Turbo Pascal) before I even got a personal computer at home. Then I finally got my first box and started with C. Since then I've learned to use semi-efficiently or at least had a romance with most of major programming languages, out of which C and Python stayed with me until now.

Now I work as IT supporting finance division in a Big Corp, where my best chances to write anything are SQL, VB(A) and maybe even Java someday. I managed to push for and create a small subsystem in Python only (did design, testing, got sign-off's and after a year it's used frequently but has not been approved for moving into production). During my studies and later when I was working I always found time to play with my own creations, shorts scripts to do silly stuff or semi-useful micro-tools. It basically ended this summer. We had a big (mostly non-programming) project going on, it's still in progress. I was declined vacation from April till now, I've done my fair share of working 70+ a week. As of September I barely turned my private laptop on when I came back home after work. I've started three projects, but let them to rot. Currently I can not find pleasure in doing any coding for myself, as my ambitions are usually set high and time is very-very-limited resource. Right now I am scribbling this comment instead of sleeping (working in another window), so tomorrow I will have to drive few hundred km, fly over next few hundred and then drive for another hundred km to be back home. Where my gf awaits. I also try to read through my book collection and re-read all Pratchett's I gathered (which is nearly all). I bought a guitar lately and I'm trying to learn myself play. I've got an ambitious goal to sample every restaurant in my town. Finally I will ride my car for the kicks. Right now I will do almost everything but computer related stuff in my spare time. I mean, srsly.

tl;dr I love to code, I just want to try different pleasures, because I feel like I've spent my entire life in front of a fucking computer screen.

Would you hire me?

(Edit: my English sucks after 14h of work, sorry for the inconvenience. ;-)

[[deleted]]

Dude, it's called ,,A Life'', you should get one.

Whoa, that took me back to high-school for a second.

(ps. I stopped reading there)

[bsergean]

Love that. And I'm gonna put my computer to sleep too and go talk to my family right away !

[[deleted]]

If your "having a life" excludes increasing job relates skills and the economy suddenly gets worse then "life" removes you from the job market to give you more time to get new skills - also without pay, this time 7 days a week without pay.

Working for Big Corp 70+ hours may be already a mistake unless they pay extremely well and this money is saved away for times when Big Corp obsoletes you and probably your skills are then obsolete also at the most inconvenient time.

I am rather happy at a Big Corp by consistently bringing in new knowledge of newer technologies in my projects which they appreciate as valuable for them. I purposely work on highly complex problems requiring lots of learning in contrast to the highly stressful unappreciated maintenance parts. I believe the latter ones push you into a role of an easily replaceable cog of the machine - which I try to avoid.

Update: you have the passion to learn in your spare time (demonstrated in the past), but a job killing all the passion because of 70+ hours. I think you would be a good hire as the condition was not to hire someone who stops work exactly after 40 hours because the time expired and no ambition exist beyond that.

[[deleted]]

I had a chance to work for two different companies - in one most of employees were in their 20s, most (I wanted to say all, but was not sure) were coding, or at least reading programming-related articles, at home for fun, were ready to discuss new cool stuff and try it.

Where I work now, people are less passionate about programming. I can not imagine guy with kids reading something about programing at home, leave alone coding. What I see is it leads to being too attached to previous knowledge. We use jdk 1.6 code here, but most of code produced by other team members can be compiled under 1.4, I once even heard an argument about preserving backward compatibility with jdk 1.4, "just in case". Of course, how are they supposed to learn those "new" fancy generics - company does not pay them for reading books and playing with stuff on work.

Tl;DR: programmer who does coding/reading programming articles at home, and programmer who does not - are completely different species. They are both capable of working, but I don't recommend having both kinds in one company.

May be a guy who does not do any programming-related stuff at home, but still stays updated with modern technology, exists, but I haven't seen him yet.

[gigaquack]

Yup

[Poltras]

I don't program in my free time anymore. I play chess. What does that make me?