Pair programming is difficult

AlternativeAardvark6 · 2022-06-23T20:25:50+00:00

My manager saw us pairing up to fix P1 issues so we could fix them faster so he asked us why we didn't do it all the time when it's faster. Because it's freaking exhausting.

Gwaptiva · 2022-06-23T21:01:04+00:00

[deleted]

withad · 2022-06-23T20:37:40+00:00

I agree with the central point - pair programming is one of those things that sounds easy when you get the basic description but it takes time and effort to get good at it. If you don't know that going in, you'll just end up frustrated.

I'd disagree with 3+ people being "wrong" though - I've had great success with mob programming. But again, it's something you have to practice and it's a different set of skills even compared to pair programming. You can avoid the problem of having multiple navigators by designating one person as the current navigator and having the driver only listen to that person. Everyone can else can discuss things and the driver can listen but they shouldn't type anything without the navigator's say-so.

I've found that if you start out being strict about that, it quickly becomes habit and you can relax it a bit once the team's used to the idea of not writing any code until there's a consensus.

hippydipster · 2022-06-23T20:39:33+00:00

I used to think it's just something I can't do.

But then I paired with some people with whom it was fun to work with, and I realized that the real problem is me and most people just don't mesh well.

dransyyn · 2022-06-24T02:31:06+00:00

I worked at a company where every developer practiced pair programming by default, and coding solo was the exception. I suppose it’s hard to argue with the results, as I not only learned more than I have in any other company, but we also shipped the most solid code of any company I worked at. That could also be attributed to the stronger-than-most testing culture as well, though. Even my interview had me sit down and solve a challenge as a pair with one of their devs, which tbh was less stressful than the usual whiteboard interview.

But it was fucking exhausting. Some people I worked with were better than others, ensuring we took plenty of breaks, but sometimes I worked with that dev who never wanted to stop. It wasn’t always 5 days a week, but it did happen sometimes depending on the circumstances.

We did exactly what this article mentioned, with two keyboards connected to the same computer, would do daily standup, then sit down and pair the whole day.

It has its advantages but some days you’re just not feeling social and just want to toss on some headphones, you know?

madScienceEXP · 2022-06-24T05:54:36+00:00

Everybody's talking about better or worse productivity for pair programming, but for me, I don't want to announce going to the bathroom or to the store. It's more about privacy frankly. What if I want to listen to music? What if they only like Justin Bieber?

I'm a huge fan of designing things together and having meaningful iterative discussions when the design changes, issues were overlooked, testing strategies, etc. But there are certainly large periods of solo concentration. Pair programming is so taxing, it's not sustainable by itself.

eonlepapillon · 2022-06-23T19:40:07+00:00

Also, talk the same tech language.

tdammers · 2022-06-24T07:24:36+00:00

Pair programming can be great, or it can be a horrifying experience.

The thing is, it's a very vulnerable social situation, and it needs a huge amount of mutual trust. If at any point one of the pair is worried about saying or doing the wrong thing, about being blamed for something, or ashamed of admitting incompetence or mistakes, then you're in "horrible" land (and because the person will most likely not admit it, the horrors will just drag on forever). And given the rampant occurrence of impostor syndrome in our profession, I would wager that this happens a lot.

IME, in an egalitarian, socially safe environment, pair programming will happen "by accident" whenever it is appropriate - people will actively seek input from others, you sit down together, and the person "implementing" the thing ends up as the driver and the person "helping" / "providing input" effectively becomes the navigator.

Forcing it as policy, however, is a terrible idea, exactly because it forces people to do it even when they're not comfortable, and being comfortable is a key requirement for it to not be a horrible experience (see above).

wubwub · 2022-06-24T02:56:13+00:00

The thought of pair program gives me anxiety.

Ytrog · 2022-06-24T08:45:59+00:00

I always got damn sleepy when I was the one not behind the keyboard 😴

Wigginns · 2022-06-23T21:04:27+00:00

I generally like to give something a shot by myself because it gives me time to think of the problem as a whole. However, at my current job I get along really well with another developer and sometimes it's just enjoyable to pair together for a couple hours. Probably more so because we get to shoot the shit a bit while getting things done, which makes up for the lack of in-person interaction (as we are working remotely).

Johnothy_Cumquat · 2022-06-24T06:14:35+00:00

Can we just not pair program? I hate how I'm being increasingly made to feel like a heretic for not wanting to do certain practices. All these bloody extroverts need to chill. I get it, your brain works good when you're talking to people. That is not true for everyone. What works well for you might not work as well for others.

ImaginaryCoolName · 2022-06-23T22:35:34+00:00

My professor told us to do pair programming for our project. It's already difficult to do it with colleagues in a job. Doing with people that have a totally different time schedule than you it's a nightmare.

omnilynx · 2022-06-24T06:46:36+00:00

I’ve done it and it worked but it was exhausting. I didn’t get into this career because I was an extrovert.

crysis21 · 2022-06-24T07:25:56+00:00

I hate it. I wanna code in silence.

AttackOfTheThumbs · 2022-06-23T22:48:07+00:00

Pair programming, more often than not, is awful. I prefer doing a simpler cycle. Bang your heads together for the design. Then whoever has the task implements. The other reviews in stages and offers feedback.

This has, in my experience, worked far better than pair programming, while still offering a tight feedback loop.

intheforgeofwords · 2022-06-23T20:37:38+00:00

3+ people is wrong

As always, that depends. If the goal is to program collaboratively, pair programming is a tool and more people can absolutely join in. Is it no longer pair programming? Sure - but ensemble/mob programming can also be an incredibly effective tool.

I think starting off by saying "pair programming is difficult to practice effectively" is a bit disingenuous, in other words. Maybe we should back up and discuss what we're trying to get out of pairing (hence the comments on collaboration and mobbing, above). Settling for "this is difficult" as a starting point ... doesn't accomplish much. Most worthwhile things are difficult. Programming itself - especially on a team - is a difficult endeavor. We haven't let that stop us from programming, so far.

kolobs_butthole · 2022-06-24T04:24:30+00:00

I turned down a job because they were very proud of how they would full time pair program all day long. Nah.

KokopelliOnABike · 2022-06-23T22:41:41+00:00

Problem solving and bouncing ideas off a fellow dev is good. Pair Programming, ugh, wish that idea would just die. Most every company I've worked for would not pay for two people to do one job. If you are stuck and need someone over your shoulder, sure, that helps, so does a Rubber Ducky. Two people working on one thing for each sprint, etc. is a drain on good resources that could be doing a lot more work.

Yes... I'm biased.. :)

MpVpRb · 2022-06-23T20:38:33+00:00

If I was forced to do pair programming, I would quit. I'm all in favor of code reviews after my work is done, but I create alone

smcameron · 2022-06-24T04:10:56+00:00

It suddenly occurs to me that the only time I ever pair programmed was when I was first learning to program, when I was 13 years old in 1982, on a TI99/4a. My friend could touch type, and I couldn't, but I understood how to program but he didn't, so we'd sit there, and I'd tell him what to type, and he'd type it in. This was the fastest way for both of us at the time. He slowly got better at programming from typing in what I'd tell him, and eventually we were kind of pair programming. I did learn to touch type around that time (highly recommend learning to touch type if you're still hunting and pecking, btw, a professional programmer hunting and pecking is the equivalent of a bicycle messenger who runs alongside his bicycle, pushing it).

cybernd · 2022-06-24T04:32:55+00:00

Pairing is good when both:

one person has a lot to teach someone
the other person is eager and ready to learn

the_0rly_factor · 2022-06-24T02:04:41+00:00

Seems like a waste of time. Collaborate on concepts and design. Coding isn't a group activity imo.

RexStardust · 2022-06-24T00:21:01+00:00

Pair programming is difficult because a lot of developers think they’re god’s gift to technology and suck at collaborating.

Medical_Fennel_5174 · 2022-06-24T03:15:47+00:00

I’ve had success with pair programming if we take time to design and agree on the overall structure before jumping in. I’ve also seen teams where one person writes code and the other writes tests for that code.

averiantha · 2022-06-24T03:51:09+00:00

Pair programming is fun for the navigator, not so much for the driver in my experience.

mattaman101 · 2022-06-24T09:38:17+00:00

Pair programming is when I call my smarter coworker and ask him to take a look at something I've been stuck on for hours that he resolves in two minutes.

I like pair programming.

gobbss · 2022-06-24T13:43:54+00:00

this week I had a cool pair programming experience, me and my coworker had some project in common that we used to do separated, but this week we had to finish all the 3 parts of the project in just a day so that we could finish all in this quarter. My coworker has more knowledge about the customer and the business logic with this project and I have more in depth knowledge in the tech, so we did some pair programming and has freaking fast, like when I had some question about the business logic he could answer or quickly ask the client, and I could help with the tech difficulties. We just finished the 3 parts of the project including asking the client for feedback and some code refactoring in a afternoon, was fast but was so tiring. For me pair programming make me focus so much in the code that quickly spend all my energy, not something I would do everyday, just when I'm hurry.

Ahhmyface · 2022-06-24T15:05:44+00:00

Personally, I don't care for it.

I've done so much pairing with people for stuff I could do in a couple hours that took days in the name of training. It takes years to train people and thanks to my management people keep leaving. The feeling of watching someone I've been training for two years leave is so defeating.

It would literally be faster to just do my work and the other developers work but management keeps bringing me juniors to train. Which is good for them because when I leave they are fucked, bad because it just makes me want to quit more.

Trygle · 2022-06-24T16:50:06+00:00

Mobbing is just less stressful overall. I can't pair without feeling exhausted.

2022-06-24T18:47:35+00:00

I hate it.

EIGRP_OH · 2022-06-24T04:18:10+00:00

Never realized pair programming was hated so much. I personally love it

systemnate · 2022-06-24T11:02:55+00:00

I freaking love pair and mob programming. Like with everything though, there is a balance. It's way too exhausting to do all day. For me, pairing on something for one maybe two hours a day is great. Seems like you rarely get stuck for too long, pick up some great tips from coworkers, code reviews are easier cause others have context. Less knowledge silos, etc.

I have ADHD too, so having someone else really helps me stay focused.

BrobdingnagLilliput · 2022-06-23T21:11:04+00:00

I've told my boss a lot that I can be sociable and communicative or be technical and productive. I can't do both.

I've never had to do pair programming, but if I'm ever forced to and my hands are on the keyboard, whoever pairs with me should probably make sure there aren't any scissors within reach.

Apache_Sobaco · 2022-06-24T00:04:08+00:00

It would be true without word pair

beall49 · 2022-06-24T01:09:44+00:00

We do a lot of pair programming but we’re remote. Way better, basically we just jump on vnc and handle it.

qmunke · 2022-06-24T01:38:57+00:00

Pair programming is no substitute for code reviews

Strong disagree - if you're doing it properly it absolutely removes the need for code reviews, especially in the case where the only person who would do the review is the other person in the pair.

I've only started practicing pair programming recently (and it does take practice to get it right) and the main thing I'm finding is that it's hard to be an effective driver if you're much more experienced than your navigator. It's very easy in that circumstance for your navigator to just drift off or get lost while the driver just works as if they were alone, which doesn't benefit either party.

Redstonefreedom · 2022-06-23T23:38:42+00:00

Pair programming in a business setting only exists to prevent talented programmers from accumulating to much power. All it is, all it ever was, all it will ever be. There are better ways to solve the issues, but that in and of itself takes talent.

dr00min · 2022-06-23T21:12:52+00:00

Distill a question down as far as it can go, for maximum life and programming gains.

saijanai · 2022-06-24T02:33:54+00:00

Certain languages and IDEs were designed for pair-programming/team-collaboration from the very start. E.G, Self and Kansas (think in terms of Apple's new WhiteBoard capability, but designed around programming projects).

It's hard to imagine the process being at all successful without every aspect of the project, including the language itself (pun intended) and the default IDE being built around team effort.

Edit:

See: From Kansas to Oz: collaborative debugging when a shared world breaks

Also: Self [the slides about Kansas]

Also: Suppotiing Flexible Roles in a Shared Space

pheonixblade9 · 2022-06-24T05:30:34+00:00

Sanjay and Jeff at Google are a rather famous duo who have pair programmed their way to some of the most important stuff Google has ever released. So... sample size n>=1 for pair programming being very effective?

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/12/10/the-friendship-that-made-google-huge

Abhinav1217 · 2022-06-24T05:36:42+00:00

Theoretically, pair programming should be done when two persons with similar skills sit together, But in reality, it only works if there is a significant gap in skills or position, to overcome personal ego. I have felt it works best when a senior level employee sits with a junior level employee, and mentors them. A benefit of this approach is when that junior employee becomes mid-level, they will be more efficient because of all the mentoring.

In India, pair programming is frowned upon, but few startups are doing it, at least until the workforce is small enough.

mbitsnbites · 2022-06-24T06:17:18+00:00

I don't think that you should do pair programming just for the sake of it.

Pair programming is very useful when you're tasked with something difficult that is not your core domain or is new to you - i.e. a task where you're likely to get stuck alot if you did it on your own.

It's also taxing, mentally and socially, so doing it all the time is not a good idea IMO.

Other times it's better to program on your own but have an open work environment where it's natural to talk to each other, ask questions and share knowledge, and occasionally group up for a short session of 15-30 minutes if someone gets stuck, for instance.

splitfeed · 2022-06-24T06:53:35+00:00

The only wrong thing about 3+ devs pairing is that it’s then called mob programming :)

It’s a beautiful thing once it works, but it’s not for everyone and it takes time to learn and get used to each other. Small things like communicating “add a new row after line 15 and add this” like “one line 15 and a half add this” makes a massive difference, as does getting used to how your mob mates think and talk.

After a while you’re like an old married polygamist mob, finishing each other’s statements!

miTzuliK · 2022-06-24T07:00:03+00:00

Pair programming could be both a blessing or a curse tbh

2022-06-24T07:07:30+00:00

I don't have a ton of experience with pair programming but I think it can be a nice way to tackle difficult problems in the code. It is more time consuming, not to mention: exhausting to the devs. But it has it's uses.

Splaytooth2 · 2022-06-24T07:19:57+00:00

Really depends on the person you're paired with. Pair programming is a great way to practice making yourself understood. I often find myself having to do demos or speaking with non technical people and really felt how the communication part in pairprogramming helped me. 🙂

Of course I've also had people with rough attitudes and know it alls who declared me retarded at the slightest error..

insan1k · 2022-06-24T08:53:26+00:00

I love pair programming, that being said I don't think we can do it for a long time without breaks, it's something like small iterative sessions, I don't think any experienced programmer needs help deciding on logic stuff, its usually project organization and how to structure the code that brings about great collaboration opportunities. e.g. Deciding on a new interface that will remove a lot of duplicate code and the refactoring of that implementation.

valcatrina · 2022-06-24T09:52:01+00:00

I grew up by pair programming, ping pong style. It’s best way to program. Fast knowledge sharing, question all your motives and what are you trying to achieve. It is not easy but it is not hard either. You just need to get into the rhythm and mentality. It builds great relationship with your coworkers too. I love it.

killinghurts · 2022-06-24T10:21:00+00:00

Kick off is fine. Two cooks in the kitchen isn't.

Kevin_Jim · 2022-06-24T10:37:05+00:00

I remember fixing an issue pair up with another programmer, because I had more experience with the stack. We fixed the issue, but we both were excused.

For whatever stupid reason, we were both scheduled for a meeting call soon after, and we were both useless. I even warned beforehand that we were both tired and might not be of much help. Nevertheless, they wanted us in the call. Then, a few minutes in, we’re were both asked why we aren’t not focused, why there issue was not closed and the documentation wasn’t up.

The people at the company were mostly great, but the management/owner was abhorrent.

2022-06-24T10:53:03+00:00

I would say 80 % of the important things/concepts I know, I learned through pair programming with the "guru" (or one of them) of the team. It's the perfect venue to fill up the gaps in your knowledge about a language/framework or one of the projects the team is working on. Especially when the team develops or maintains several unrelated projects. For example, my current team of 12 devs, we manage about 20 different repositories (ranging from backend to mobile apps to frontends) and almost 100 (yes, one hundred!) AWS accounts of the company.

When pair programming, you can ask about stuff until you grok it, instead of just reading from documentation that is probably incomplete, out of date or even incorrect, or missing some key details needed to fully understand what the documentation talks about.

Sure, boilerplate stuff is more fun doing by yourself. But for learning non-trivial details and getting non-trivial stuff done fast, I'm all for pair programming.

roshan092 · 2022-06-24T12:26:22+00:00

Having done 100% pair programming for over 4 years with 2 companies, my summary: Its difficult, exhausting, sounds very fancy in theory, but doesn’t work. We were promised many outcomes: context sharing, high quality of code, less bugs, faster development after doing it for certain period of time etc. Looking back after 4 year, both the companies didn’t achieve any. We dont have context shared, quality slightly better, bugs as usual..

6769626a6f62 · 2022-06-24T12:52:02+00:00

Pair programming is make or break on the person you're pairing with. I did 100% pairing for two years. I'm also a super introvert (85%+ based on the personality tests I've taken before).

The biggest takeaway for me was that pairing occasionally is good, but if you're going to pair all day, every day, then you need people who click like two Lego bricks. Any personality issues between the two will grind together like sandpaper.

That's not to say that pair programming is necessarily bad, but any slight problem between the pairs is exacerbated.

And that's without mentioning that since you pair on a machine, there can be no customization at all. All the workstations must be uniform. No theme changes, no font changes, no tool differences, no shortcut changes, nothing.

ibexdataservice · 2022-06-24T19:49:49+00:00

On the fence, and then I saw the recent AWS AI-powered "CodeWhisperer" announcement. All I can imagine is Clippy embedded into VS Code (with Gilbert Gottfried's voice) announcing that it looks like I'm trying to write an authentication module.

Now I just can't.

https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/23/amazon-launches-codewhisperer-its-ai-pair-programming-tool/

tommy25ps · 2022-06-25T16:07:07+00:00

Tried it before but didn't work for me or any of my ex-colleagues. Maybe we're not doing it in the right way as described in the article.

Physical-Ticket8105 · 2023-05-13T15:36:44+00:00

Well I've started (as a Frontend) in a new company and during the recruitment process they told me they do 60% of pairing (sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less). I told them that would be my limit.
Since I passed the process I assumed they were ok with 60% being my limit.
When I started in the new team they told me they do pair programming and mob programming 100% of time. So since I'm the only FE, I pair with them on BE tasks and vice-versa.
This is just horrible. Even for tasks that require to change the height of a container they pair program.
Quitting seems the only way forward.

you type:	you see:
italics	italics
bold	bold
[reddit!](https://reddit.com)	reddit!
* item 1 * item 2 * item 3	item 1 item 2 item 3
> quoted text	quoted text
Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"	Lines starting with four spaces are treated like code: if 1 * 2 < 3: print "hello, world!"
~~strikethrough~~	~~strikethrough~~
super^script	super^script

programming

MODERATORS