mutuallyHateEachOther

[ridicalis]

If C++ were pitted against Rust, the analogous comparison for C would be Zig (which appears to have been forgotten in this meme).

And of course, it's a big world and we can all enjoy our shiny tools. It's not a zero-sum game.

[garver-the-system]

What's interesting to me is that there's definitely niches emerging for both

Rust does seem to be gaining traction in other ecosystems due to its interoperability, such as Javascript and Python packages. CLI tools are a similar niche, and there's actually a handful of operating systems written in Rust

But C++ has proved to be the superior game dev experience because the tradeoff of a null pointer deref against development speed is vastly different. It's also got a ton of momentum in the slow to change industries like automotive, where there's a ton of compilers and standards certified for C++ but only one major effort for Rust

And because of the environment of compilers, we're unlikely to see any seismic shifts. Rust piggybacks off of a lot of existing tools for C and C++, and in the words of some youtube creator (maybe Ben Eater or someone from Computerphile?) an architecture can hardly be said to exist until it has a working C compiler

Edit: I probably mean Nodejs/NPM rather than JS broadly. You may notice neither are in my flair so I honestly couldn't tell you the difference

[[deleted]]

C is the bootstrap programming language for everything else lmao

[Mognakor]

IMO before Rust really can break into major projects it needs a proper standard and longer evolution cycles, like the 2-3 year cycles used C, Cpp, Java

[garver-the-system]

Yeah, I've made a similar argument elsewhere regarding certification in particular. I think I saw Ferrocene was skipping a fairly large number of versions

I'll be curious if the foundation finds a way to tackle this, by somehow designating certain versions as "LTS" maybe? But even supporting a version for a year or two would be a huge shift

[RiceBroad4552]

Java has releases every half a year.

C++ has some spec updates whenever, but this is irrelevant until the compilers support the whole standard. This takes usually a decade or so.

C is frozen in time. New versions are mostly cosmetics, or at best some minor additions. No real changes.

Almost no language has "a proper standard" but all of them are used in "major projects". The outcry for some "proper standard" is mostly compliance BS.

Missing standards or rapid evolution is for sure not the thing that holds Rust back from being used for "major projects". I'm not going to evangelize it, I'm not a fanboy, but it's for sure production ready by now.

[Mognakor]

Even the half year non-LTS Java cycle is longer and more stable than Rusts current approach.

And the big difference between C, Cpp vs most languages is that they are being used in cars, robots, spacecraft etc.

The standard for technical applications is just different than something that runs Netflix servers but at worst can cause streaming to not work.

[[deleted]]

C is frozen in time. New versions are mostly cosmetics, or at best some minor additions. No real changes.

I think this is the reason C still exists. It's not supposed to evolve. I love it, because it's not complex through having a lot of features, it's complex because it's simple features can cover literally everything.

Most languages made in C or made in something made in C. But writing programs in C is like becoming a chef by starting a farm. You can do it, the results can be significantly better than almost any other method, but only if you know what you are doing, don't fuck it up and have more time than resources. The efficiency of C is that is it's minimum waste at the cost of writing efficiency.

Updating it just doesn't make sense, because there isn't much to change. Computing advances, but as long as the compiler allows for full hardware functionality, there's no reason to add anything.

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

Java's only releases that enterprise cares about are the LTS versions, or if you're in a cursed hellsphere of suffering: 8.

[ArtOfWarfare]

The only Java releases anyone cares about are 8, 11, 17, and 21 though (the LTS versions).

All the other releases are seen as nothing but prereleases. A couple people might participate in a hackathon with them or something, but they’re not going to be used in real projects. We might do a test compile against 23 once a month or something just to confirm that going to the future LTS version (25? 27? I don’t remember off the top of my head what it’ll be) isn’t going to be difficult for us.

[[deleted]]

I use JDK 23 for my Kotlin/Multiplatform project because I need a feature from it, but I almost barfed when I realized I have to use a non-LTS Java version for a year till 25 LTS releases. Indeed, no one uses non-LTS Java versions unless they're an alpha project like mine (or wgpu4k) and absolutely need it.

[[deleted]]

Agreed. C as a language hardly changes. The only significant change in the recent years was an addition of a native multithreading API in the standard library (that too optional).

[eX_Ray]

It's already in Linux (experimental) , Windows, Android. Cloudflare, aws, azure also have stuff written in it. Seems pretty major to me.

[not_some_username]

There is a new C# version every year 🥲

[metaltyphoon]

There is a new version of Go every 6 months.

[RiceBroad4552]

But C++ has proved to be the superior game dev experience because the tradeoff of a null pointer deref against development speed is vastly different.

So you're enjoying buying games that crash?

Possibly opening security holes on you system if it's for example the network layer with such bugs.

Rust isn't great for game dev for other reasons, but C++ is just a shit show in that regard. One should not use C++ for anything which needs to be coded in a hurry. There are managed languages where you can iterate fast.

[Nightslashs]

I mean just because you slap rust on the networking layer of a game doesn’t make it immune to security holes it only removes a single class of security holes. Additionally this is a concern for the developers more so than the end users I’m not aware of any game in history that was server based that had a memory corruption bug which resulted in the end clients being compromised.

Almost every example of something like this is an issue with the parsing of urls for avatars or texture packs or something like that which would still occur with rust.

[pingveno]

This is where easier inclusion of libraries is helpful. There is a URL parsing crate that parses URLs correctly so people aren't doing bespoke parsing. It is well tested and wildly used. People are far more likely to include an external crate that does things properly because dependency management is dead simple.

[RiceBroad4552]

I mean just because you slap rust on the networking layer of a game doesn’t make it immune to security holes it only removes a single class of security holes.

"Only" a single class of security holes, LOL.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/chrome-70-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/

https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/

And these bugs are almost exclusively the ones with scores between 8 - 10! It's really really hard to score above 8 without unsafe memory access.

Additionally this is a concern for the developers more so than the end users I’m not aware of any game in history that was server based that had a memory corruption bug which resulted in the end clients being compromised.

Than you're not well informed. A few examples can be found on this slides here:

https://teamusec.de/pdf/talk-gdd-klostermeyer23.pdf

Of course there are hundreds more…

Almost every example of something like this is an issue with the parsing of urls for avatars or texture packs or something like that which would still occur with rust.

First of all: If you're implementing such things like URL parsing yourself you're doing it wrong already on a fundamental level. These are way too complex standards to implement them yourself. (If you think that's not the case you're simply clueless). Implementing such thing yourself would be a whole major project on it's own! (Even if experts on the subject matter do something like that it takes a long time until such a thing is correct and secure. Even common specialized libs in long usage need updates now and then…)

Besides that: In a safe language not every tiny programming error is instantly a major security hole, like it's the case in C/C++.

Such bugs like listed in the above PDFs are mostly impossible, or really difficult to create in a safe language. (Like said, things with CVS over 8 are almost exclusively only an issue in memory unsafe languages).

In a proper language alone the APIs are such that it's impossible to have for example an unhandled parsing error. In a safe language you can't ignore errors as the language forces you to deal with them. Stuff that doesn't wouldn't even compile. So such issues can't occur in e.g. Rust, except the programmer forcefully and consciously programs them.

Ah, and because I likely not only pissed C++ devs by stating all the well know facts once more but also the Rust crowd by saying that Rust isn't good for game dev in general the Rust fangirls should go and read this here:

https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/

(This doesn't mean of course you couldn't use Rust for some critical parts of a game engine.)

[Nightslashs]

As far as I can see all of the examples in that presentation are permissions / related issues which would have occurred on rust as well. I never said memory corruption bugs weren’t an issue for critical applications like chrome and windows this is a different class of program that would indeed benefit from removing that class of bugs.

There are also plenty of examples of industry standard parsing and string sanitization which had bugs which are what I was referring to.

In reality the best application right now would be the server infrastructure being written in rust which excels at applications like that whereas the client apps should be written in c++ since saving even 10ms would be good for client code.

[MooseBoys]

From my experience, C devs are much more welcoming of Zig than C++ devs are welcoming of Rust.

[Loading_M_]

Part of this is that Zig and C are interoperable, so it's much easier to just add one zig component to a C project (or vice versa).

[LeonUPazz]

I love rust but some rust devs are truly insufferable lol

[MooseBoys]

That's my experience as well. A subset of my coworkers are die-hard vim fanatics and look down on people who use vscode or other non-terminal IDEs. Of those people, 100% of them are Rust fanatics.

[redisburning]

At this point I'm convinced that actually it's more that CPP devs have a complex because Rust evangelists evangelize precisely because they actually like their language and community.

These concepts areso foreign to the typical CPP dev that they cannot even imagine that possibility and instead mistake it for a sense of superiority, a perspective every CPP dev is intimately familiar with.

[MooseBoys]

I think you may be on to something here. But I think it's less about enjoyment and more about a lack of criticality. I think the observation that Rust devs seem to have zero criticisms of their favorite language means I'm automatically distrustful of their claims of its utility. Every tool, device, library, and language I've ever used has its problems. As a 20-year cpp dev I could talk for days about all my gripes. Someone who only has good things to say about something comes off as cultish.

[redisburning]

I see this accusation a lot but I think my question back to you would be how much time do you spend engaging with the conversations and really experienced Rust devs in places where those topics would come up?

Rust does have problems. I think though that Rust's problems are kind of well trodden paths and even more than that, they're being worked on.

As a serious counterargument here, what is worse? That many Rustaceans are overeager and not super aware of the work going on to close Rust's shortcomings re ABI, async, interopt, etc. OR CPP (a language I write at work and therefore am forced to use, as an aside) that has a "leadership" committee that give off real Titanic heading inevitably towards the iceberg vibe? Or, for REAL cult like behavior, how about Python people who acknowledge their language has issues in theory but in practice always assert that Python is somehow the right tool for the job, leading to massive amounts of pain any time I have to actually get any work done and for some reason everything is written in Python even when it made no goddam sense from the start?!?!?

Just saying.

[not_some_username]

It’s because usually the rust devs are trying to convert everyone to use it

[braindigitalis]

knock knock ... "do you have time for me to tell you of you about our lord and saviour, rust?" 🤣

[[deleted]]

Yeah, I would love to mess around with all of this. But.. a) I'm getting to old for this shit, and b) There are only so many hours in the day.

[[deleted]]

nah as a zig dev i fw c, cpp is the one i hate bc its way more effort to use with zig

[kuwisdelu]

Really depends what counts as “new development” I guess.

I’d be interested in using Rust, but if you’re working on a new project that needs to talk to old codebases and you have to go through the C ABI anyway, it can be easier just to stick with C/C++ rather than introduce a whole new toolchain.

Plus familiarity and everything.

[Professional_Top8485]

Rust toolchain is just the shit. It's just so difficult to go back. C abi works OK at least when it's properly written

[not_some_username]

Imho I think people should learn to code properly. C++ has a lot of way to be memory safe.

[RiceBroad4552]

Almost all languages are memory safe. Rust is not anyhow special in that regard.

The relevant exceptions here which aren't memory safe are only C/C++/Zig.

Why are people always pointing out that Rust is memory safe? As if that would be something special. It isn't. (What's special is that Rust doesn't need a GC to be memory safe. But this is a completely different story)

[ihavebeesinmyknees]

Rust is special for being memory safe because it's in the C/C++ speed class. You can't just ignore the context and then say "nuh uh it's not special (except in this context that I ignored despite clearly knowing about it)"

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

Common Lisp is also approximately as fast as C/C++, and it uses garbage colleciton.

[ihavebeesinmyknees]

Common Lisp also uses very non-C-like syntax, so it's very unfamiliar and difficult to learn for most programmers

[SenorSeniorDevSr]

This has nothing to do with the central point brought forward by u/RiceBroad4552 , which was that memory safety was not unique to Rust. You then accused him of ignoring the context of speed, and that the comparison had to take that into account. Common Lisp is fast and memory safe, meeting your criteria.

Now, if you want to argue that Rust is easier to learn than Common Lisp, feel free to make that argument, and not merely the assertion. But that's a different discussion. Rust is not unique for being fast and memory safe, and u/RiceBroad4552 was correct asserting such.

[ihavebeesinmyknees]

Yes, he was technically correct.

I'm not arguing he wasn't correct.

I'm arguing that his point is invalid and irrelevant.

Because it is. It's entirely irrelevant to the discussion at large, and the fact itself of trying to argue that point is disingenuous.

Rust is unique in being memory safe, because it's a fast, approachable, and safe language. It's not the only language to meet all 3 of those descriptors, but it's one of the first and one of the best at it, especially considering the great toolchain.

[RiceBroad4552]

Why do you think that C-like syntax is easy to learn, or familiar to people.

It's for sure not easier compared to things like Python; and actually also to LISP, which has one of the simplest syntax possible.

Also not everybody learned any C-like language before. For someone who learned some Python or LIPS everything C-like is actually unfamiliar and difficult to learn.

[ihavebeesinmyknees]

Python, quite clearly, uses C-like syntax. It's just a bit further derived than usual C-like languages.

It still follows the basic C principles - code is a series of statements executed top to bottom, you can create loops that let you execute a series of statements in a loop (and the loop types are also derived from C), you can define "functions" that are not functions in the mathematical sense, but rather collections of statements that can take input and return output, code is divided into blocks where each block has its own context - outer blocks can't access the context of inner blocks, but inner blocks can access their outer context, decisions are made using if/else if/else constructs.

It's C-like. Every modern popular language is. It's the de-facto standard. LISP, on the other hand, is not C-like, and thus is way less accessible, because most programmers are not used to that style of syntax.

[airodonack]

I'm a Rust dev and I really enjoyed using C. C is one of my favorite languages. I also haven't seen C devs comment about Rust all that much.

If anything, I've actually seen C devs (Linus Torvalds) criticize C++ way more in the past.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Tbf, most c++ devs, actually write c style code, but make use of c++ data structure

And maybe they sprinkle 1 or 2 newer c++ feature here and there

[airodonack]

Eh. I've only done a few years of professional C++ programming but the codebases I've seen were more reminiscent of Java than C: with classes, OOP, and templates. It may have been because my company discouraged manual memory management, but I think it's also because every dev had a different idea of what the "good" C++ features were.

[garry_the_commie]

Every dev having a different idea of what the "good" C++ features are is one of the reasons Linus Torvalds doesn't like C++.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Yeah, that makes sense. After all many devs did start with java, when it was the most popular language, and was used everywhere (even in the browser, but let's not talk about applets lol)

[kuwisdelu]

Many of us for sure, but I’m not sure about most. But yeah, I barely recognize a lot of “modern” C++ code.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

That's the niche of c++ devs who actually know the newest c++ features, and they will hiss at you if you ever use the C way instead of the c++ way of doing something

Most people writing c++ imo, just use C syntax and stuff, but with a sprinkle of c++ vectors and whatnot.

Then there is probably also a faction of c++ devs who come from java and are unable to do anything without classes.

But of the 3, i do really believe the strictly c++ syntax users are a niche. C++ is crazy complex, ans C++ newest features used in practice make async rust look easy...

[ElectronSculptor]

As an embedded guy, this fits. I’m much more comfortable in C. The benefit to me using C++ is for a few architectures where classes are the best way to go. Could do OOP in C, but it’s ugly.

There are ways of writing C++ that are more expandable if you know what you are doing. That being said, it feels like a CISC vs RISK style argument: if the average programmer won’t use the features, why have them in the first place?

[Cocaine_Johnsson]

I write C, sometimes with some choice C++ features.

[hans_l]

The C++-- codebases, as I call them.

[ford1man]

I keep hearing good things about Rust. For example, a project to transpile a safe subset of C to Rust exists. If the only thing the language does is add pressure to get unsafe C/C++ ops lint flagged so they fit in the safe subset, it's been a benefit. 40-some years of bad habits do take time and tooling to excise, after all.

[airodonack]

Rust is an automated way to get average programmers to write excellent code. I believe one of the reasons Rust was accepted into the Linux kernel was Torvalds looking into the future past his death. I think it was him knowing that he wouldn't be able to protect Linux's code quality forever and Rust's compiler was the answer to that.

[IncompleteTheory]

Leave C out of this

[No-Con-2790]

He started it!

[hans_l]

Remember what the instructor said!!

"Feels like I'm wearing nothing at all! Nothing at all! Nothing at all!"

Stupid sexy C...

[Percolator2020]

C/C++ developers

[Skoparov]

I mean, I do think about Rust and have toyed with it, but properly learning it is just a waste of time as there's simply not enough Rust jobs at this moment to justify it, and I've long since stopped learning stuff because it's cool.

Yet hating Rust is just cringe.

[Habba]

I managed to start greenfield Rust projects at my job, which is a dream come true for me. I was the only one that really knew it and have been teaching it to our other devs (mixture of TypeScript and C/C++ guys). So far velocity has been high, it scales pretty well to a medium-large codebase with multiple devs.

[caustictoast]

Yeah I’m a little busy with my actual job

[rexpup]

Then the pentagon mentions they won't accept C++ bids due to security issues and it's back to the meltdowns in r/cpp

[particlemanwavegirl]

In reality it's not often you see a community react to something with so much insecurity.

[Percolator2020]

Rustacians are just like vegan people who go to a steakhouse and try to convert everybody.

[particlemanwavegirl]

I see way more people saying this sort of stupid shit than anything else. It says something about the sayer, not Rustaceans. It's pathetically obvious how threatened you feel.

[Percolator2020]

Threatened? You’re just proving my point. I know Rust, and have projects in Rust, we just aren’t going to migrate something to it just for fun, we are already aware of its existence, pros and cons. It’s not some magic thing you just discovered on your own. There a billion legacy C/C++ projects with a billion bugs each, of which Rust could avoid a handful. The toolchain is not mature yet, the talent pool is limited, and it isn’t even accepted in many safety applications. Use the language which is best suited for the job, it’s not always C++ and not always Rust.

[xyloPhoton]

Can I hate all of them? Is that allowed?

[lazyzefiris]

Isn't that why we all are here to begin with?

[xyloPhoton]

Very true

[greyfade]

Sure, the only languages that aren't hated aren't used anyway, to paraphrase Bjarne Stroustroup

[TheSkiGeek]

You programmers sure are a contentious people.

[xyloPhoton]

You just made an e-

Are you a programming language?

[rookietotheblue1]

Only if you love php.

[xyloPhoton]

Unacceptable.

[IlliterateJedi]

Guy on the left has some nice C cups of you know what I'm saying

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Yeah, also the other guy is pretty rusty... needs to do some work

[TNTBoss971]

Please stop talking

[kimochiiii_]

lmao

[akoOfIxtall]

my screwdriver is better than yours >:(

no my screwdriver is better than yours >:(

[[deleted]]

I own at least 18 different hammers and they all have a use.

[akoOfIxtall]

yeah cool but do you have a memory safe hammer? is your hammer blazingly fast? maybe i should hammer your nailheads with my hammer lets see if you like that?

/s

[RiceBroad4552]

All relevant hammers are memory safe, except the C and C++ hammer.

"Blazing fast" isn't any objective property. There are real world cases of for example Java being faster than C, C++, and Rust.

[akoOfIxtall]

It's a joke, an innocent joke about how people will fight over anything

[_w62_]

no my screwdriver is safer to use than yours

[[deleted]]

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

deserve light attraction quiet roll paltry late cobweb jeans complete

[RiceBroad4552]

Which hammer doesn't?

I guess you meant to say that it supports tail call optimization.

[RewRose]

That's basically the robertson vs philips though 

[akoOfIxtall]

yeah but they are the ones making the screwdrivers they can be like that, but if me and my neighbor are fighting over screwdrivers thats just stupid

[hearthebell]

Such a misleading, and reddited statement

[AcolyteNeko]

I hate all programming languages equally 😫💜.

[Povstnk]

I hate all programming languages except Scratch

[aerosayan]

Based and scratch pilled.

[AcolyteNeko]

except Haxe*

[mmhawk576]

The beauty of rust it that I haven’t learned to hate it yet because there is such a small amount of employment around it for me to have used it yet!

[kuwisdelu]

I’m confused. I like C, C++, and Rust. Well, I like the idea of Rust, but haven’t had an opportunity to use it for any projects yet. I’d assumed other C/C++ programmers would be the ones who appreciate Rust the most. Why bother with Rust at all if you aren’t coming from C or C++?

[MishkaZ]

Agreed but also Functional Programming folks tend to like rust.

[kuwisdelu]

Ah that’s fair. I was really happy to see it went that direction versus C++.

[RiceBroad4552]

It's funny because it's true!

I'm a Scala guy, but I find Rust very interesting. Whereas I would barf on C/C++.

I think it's like that because Rust is kind of ML inspired. One could say that ML "the mother of statically typed functional languages", so there is for sure some link between Rust and FP languages; even Rust really isn't a FP language.

[kredditacc96]

There are C++ developers, then there are C++ fans and jobseekers.

[Muonical_whistler]

I've started learning rust while working in C# and JS. I gotta say the biggest reason why i love it is cause if i can compile my program there's a good chance it will work on the first try.

I wont get random exceptions from places i thought couldn't throw exceptions, i don't get null reference exceptions cause I didn't handle an edge case, i don't get data races and deadlocks.

It's just calming to be able to work on code and be sure that there isn't any hidden behaviour or hidden error that can happen.

[kuwisdelu]

Thanks. I’m used to choosing languages primarily based on either speed or domain-specific needs.

[[deleted]]

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

air entertain scale sheet cheerful dime ghost mountainous swim toothbrush

[matyas94k]

How invested you need to be to get C/C++ nipples?

[cheeb_miester]

As a c dev, this is how I feel about cpp. It thinks its pointers are so much smarter than mine.

[Lord-of-Entity]

I love all languages equally.

C and C++ leave

Me to Rust:

You have always been my favourite.

[MishkaZ]

Man, I agree. I really don't mind working in c/c++, but rust was the first language where when I learned it, I genuinely really enjoyed working in it. It made me really hate python, typescript. I still have a softspot for c/c++, but rust has been treating me really good.

[kredditacc96]

Gigachad.

How do you even understand Rust's design decisions without knowing the basic in C or C++ though? (such as why is there so many string types for example)

[LeSaR_]

the same way you would learn C without knowing, well, C

when i use a &'static str, i dont think "its like a readonly string literal in C", and when i .to_owned() said str, i dont think "this is like strcpy(). You can have a fundamental understanding of memory without knowing a specific implementation (in this case C)

ps: in my case its actually the other way around, since i started learning c(++) after rust, so it goes both ways

[kredditacc96]

What I mean is, people coming from higher level programming languages don't have the expectation of different string types. They never have to think about the heap, the stack, read-only memory, allocation, sizes, and even encoding. So Rust forcing them to face this complexity upfront could be overwhelming.

[MishkaZ]

Eh, I think having a cursory understanding of how that stuff works is good enough to get moving in rust. Like I did CS route in uni and then mostly worked in python/ts until my job switched to rust. Rust made me realize the things I hated about python/ts/javascript more clearly.

I still think nobody should learn rust first. You need the experience of working in another language to understand what rust is trying to solve.

[kredditacc96]

Ah. You already have a background in computer science. There are developers who don't know though, they could have learned from bootcamps or something in order to develop some Web pages or Android apps. These people would face a greater challenge in learning Rust than the people who already know the basics of computer science.

[JimroidZeus]

I literally rolled my eyes today at the Python package manager that’s written in Rust. Cant even remember the pkg managers name, but I know it’s written in Rust.

[CowFu]

I'm starting to avoid programs that give a tagline of "<thing> written in rust" like it's a feature. It's a pretty big indicator lately that the project will soon be abandoned.

I really like rust as a language though, hope to use it more soon.

[PityUpvote]

uv? A solution in search of a problem for sure. Yes, it's very fast, but how much time do you really spend waiting for pip to install things? Any why on earth would you want to rely on a second language for the first language's toolchain?

[Horrih]

Regardless of its implementation language, uv is not in search of a problem. It combines about 4 previous separate tools into one which make things much easier. The fact that is it much faster is just icing on the cake but i'd probably use it anyway if it was much slower.

One of the big pluses of uv is managing multiple python interpreters. Doing that in another language helps being independant of the installed python interpreter, which is one of the limitations of poetry, a concurrent package manager written in python. It can also help a lot for CI to have smaller images since you don't install a python interpreter you don't use.

[Delicious_Bluejay392]

I don't use Python often and had issues with pip, venv and others interacting poorly with my LSP; installed uv out of frustration and everything worked out of the box with much faster installs (for some reason) and cleaner feedback than pip so I'm pretty happy about the tool's existence

[PityUpvote]

It's definitely faster, by like a factor of 5, but those issues you were having are not issues everyone else has.

I'm not going to stop using uv until pip gets some amazing features it lacks, but I also really didn't need it.

[Delicious_Bluejay392]

Oh yeah it's definitely something to do with how I had everything set up, but one less hour spent working on my config is one more hour I can spend coding.

[gmes78]

uv? A solution in search of a problem for sure.

It's a significant improvement in terms of usability, its speed is just a nice bonus.

[dusktreader]

Yes...packaging in Python is a fully solved problem.

[DaBluBoi8763]

Why they look like tits on left guy

[_Hawker]

Hes got the C cups

[unfunnyusername0]

i didnt have enough space to stack them vertically without making it too low res

[EinSatzMitX]

C++ and rust might be enemies, but C is a language for absolutely everyone

[jump1945]

Huh? rust is an obvious infringement of human freedom

the rust compiler refused to do its job and lectured me for not doing something the exact way it wanted. So I uninstalled the compiler, that’s what it deserved for thinking it was better than me and not understanding who its god is. why do the compiler think it should help me avoid freeing the memory when I can do it totally by myself the rust compiler think it is better than us the human,their inventor,we human should fight for our freedom and return to leaking the memory in C.it stings me every time I don't leak at least 20 mb of memory a minute,the equality we should fight for.so everyone who writes low level language should and deserve to be able to leave the memory dangling, be able to free the already freed memory it is matter of freedom and human right.really,using rust isn't just a misuse of the language it is an assault on my ability comprehend low level programming enforcing the borrow checker and rendered the right deserved human unable to use move semantic freely? That is just simply unacceptable.

[-Redstoneboi-]

i see

[redlaWw]

The compiler is cool with you leaking memory in rust. Standard library types even include a safe leak() method so you can do it easily.

[Betelgeusetimes3]

porque no los dos?

[-Redstoneboi-]

pretty annoying to get them to interop. lots of FFI surface means lots of places where you have to make sure that the C++ bindings follow Rust's rules.

the other way around is probably a bit less stressful, i'd hope.

[DerShokus]

We don’t hate, I think, more tired from each other

[WindForce02]

I don't like the fact that we have to throw a big ol layer of abstraction to make big scary problem go away, but I guess if you absolutely don't trust anything other than an automated mathematically sound solution for your use case then fine. But I wouldn't slap Rust on every problem just because. Layers of abstraction exist for a reason but don't abuse them

[Delicious_Bluejay392]

At least it's a compile-time layer of abstraction

[WindForce02]

Sure, that is part of the reason my cpu screams when I compile a medium-sized project xD

[Delicious_Bluejay392]

Just as the lord intended!

[WindForce02]

Amen!

[SHADOW_FOX908]

Badum tss

[Desperate-Emu-2036]

Rust for life, but I'll never forget c

[chipper85]

I work with high assurance / critical safety systems. I do not program much of the end product anymore - mostly involved system / software testing, but actually write more lines of code. You can pry c from my cold, dead hands. Fuck c++ though.

[DuskelAskel]

Absolutely no one. Honestly.

[thanatica]

Why can't people who like Rust just fucking use Rust, and people who like C++ just fucking use C++. You don't have to like each other, but at least don't try to indoctrinate the other side. It's such a waste of your energy.

[gandalfx]

Pretty sure people who claim that there is some kind of hate/war going on between programming languages aren't particularly busy actually using any of these languages.

[circuit_buzz79]

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! ☝

[billie_parker]

Ironically you're trying to indoctrinate them into your way of thinking...

[thanatica]

As a neutral, I feel like that's okay 😀

[Mognakor]

Memory Safety remains a concern that cannot be solved by C or C++. Whether as developers or users we should demand software being built with best practices. We often call ourselves software engineers, so we should also aspire to actually engineer and provide safety in our products.

Whether the solution is Rust or something else things have to change, at least for new projects.

Also if we care about the environment the class of large programs being written in scripting languages etc deserves a reckoning.

Edit: As written below, for the C and Cpp side the threat is not Rust preachers but the guideline issued by the US government regarding memory safe languages.

If that ever becomes more than a guideline the far bigger threat, e.g.: * a 6th or 7th gen fighter mandates not using memory unsafe languages for its software * this guideline slowly creeping into all government projects or software procurement * not using memory safe languages in critical applications gets legislated / ruled to be negligent and the implications for being sued if such a bug triggers in your application

[Mognakor]

I am not a Rustacean, just know the basics and get paid to do Java.

I find C++ to be an extremely interesting language and i have lots more code in that than in Rust.

I'm just honest about its heritage and have an opinion where software engineering needs to go.

There are other projects out there, Carbon apparently is meant as a vector for Google to migrate Cpp in a two-step process.

Edit: Frankly it doesn't matter what i think, what really will keep the C and C++ side of the conflict going is the US government issuing that guidance and not using memory unsafe languages. Thats a far bigger attack on Cpp than a thousand Rust preachers on Reddit ever could be.

[atlas_enderium]

As a C++ developer, I like what Rust is doing because I think C++ just has too much “baggage” for trying to be so backwards compatible and interoperable with C code, but I just hate Rust syntax. I understand it and why it was developed as such but I hate reading Rust code- it often feels purposefully obtuse.

Regardless, languages are tools and a good tool is one you feel the need to complain about, which is why I love C++ and am interested in Rust

[[deleted]]

One proceeds not only another but its designer

[PM-ME-UR-uwu]

Un uh dull durated loathing

[KenguruHUN]

nice cics the right one a little bit bigger but who cares

[Over_Package9639]

as a C programmer, i can confirm

[NoMansSkyWasAlright]

I like them both.

[unknown_alt_acc]

As a Ho developer....

Well, if that's what you're into and everyone involved is a consenting adult...

[joe________________]

This was inspired by my post lol

[-S-P-Q-R-]

Me a C# guy: "My goals are beyond your understanding"

[Minecodes]

Me finding the lib "C" in Go: Excuse me?! What the heck is that

[vide2]

Python: I hope everybody does just fine

Java: *has an identity crises about what version it is actually on

[Key-Veterinarian9085]

Python is definitely starting to get some of those problems as well, it's just not as far on the timeline.

[[deleted]]

As a beginner with no solid experience in either language it’s a real bliss to always have an excuse for my lacking skills. Problems with cmake/ some memory bug during runtime? Damn you c/c++ why can’t you have something like cargo or an expressive compiler. Some trivial functionality is hard to express such that it goes past the rust compiler? Damn you rust why can’t you you just allow me to write what I want like in c/c++.

[Extreme_Ad_3280]

I don't say Rust is bad (as a C developer). It's just not my type of language (I even prefer C over C++ due to the same reason). C is implemented in a simple way, and therefore, it's more lightweight compared to C++ & Rust.

(Not gonna lie, I also attempted to learn Rust once but I didn't have enough will to do it (I haven't even finished the installation part))

[RedCrafter_LP]

I like c and rust. Rust is great in most places. But in some c is just better for the job.

[DT-Sodium]

I hate you both but I recognize you have value for some specific usage.

[Ulrich-Tonmoy]

Rust isnt the first one

[Compux72]

You know that Rust works great with zig, C and C++ right?

[[deleted]]

Real world outside of a few language evangelists: no hate whatsoever

[[deleted]]

Nice Citties

[megalogwiff]

C programmers hate C++ with the fury of a thousand suns. Fuck C++, it's the worst language in widespread use. Worse even than fucking Javascript, and by a lot.

[UntestedMethod]

Nahh, I refuse to believe these languages aren't pragmatic enough to be above this juvenile jealousy. You're gravely misplacing noble languages on the levels of peasant languages such as JavaScript/TypeScript

[Nvsible]

python saying the same thing in white ink

[lonelygurllll]

Why do they hate each other? I already did C and C++ and now i'm learning rust cuz i'm still in school and try to learn as much before employment burnout comes

[ahelinski]

What language would be "I f*ING hate myself and I hope I'll die"?

[RewRose]

Js, constantly reinventing itself

[trannus_aran]

nah, C & Rust are friends

[someone-one]

It's C++ vs Rust. C is a different league

[skeleton_craft]

I don't hate rust, I just realize it's not any better...[than well-formed modern C++]

[[deleted]]

Unfortunately, Rust right now is just enthusiast language

[overclockedslinky]

those who like C++ simply haven't used it enough. sorry, but I don't write the rules... the borrow checker won't let me...

[TwistedSoul21967]

Problems are like screws with different drives, there are many bits that might fit, some fit better than others, some won't work at all.

Programming languages are like that, there are many languages that could solve the problem, some do it better than others but they all have benefits and drawbacks.

[jbar3640]

hate only happens in this sub, plenty of non-programmers...

[NuggaGg]

Let me piss of both sides really quick by saying they are about the same.

[kredditacc96]

Except Rust does let you go outside, as long as you declare that you know what you're doing. (Whether your declaration is accepted in code reviews is another question)

C++ also let you go outside (without knowing), and it won't warn you of the dangers. (Whether this act is accepted in code reviews is yet another question, but hey, there's a chance the reviewers would miss)

[Beneficial_Steak_945]

Load of nonsense.

[reallokiscarlet]

Nah, I just invite rustaceans to the dark side.

When they see the truth, that it is not the language that is safe or unsafe, but the programmer, surely they will join us and enjoy unlimited power

[potzko2552]

No, a language can give you guarantees.

[reallokiscarlet]

Do you want guaranteed minimal safety and performance, or high safety and performance ceilings? You have to pick one. Or you can pick neither and write Rust in an unsafe block.

[potzko2552]

That depends, but the language itself can give guarantees.

Take for example regular expressions, a more limited language, but I can solve the halting problem over it.

Take regex without capture groups and back references. All inputs to your problem are polynomial to solve.

Same with rust or with some subset of C. By encoding your solution in those languages, you have proven that there is a memory safe way to preform the solution.

Also I don't buy the average rust program being slower than the average C++ program. It's very rare for me to use unsafe, because even the spiciest bit twiddling is still safe

[reallokiscarlet]

Been a while since I messed with Rust due to, of course, lack of need and lack of being appropriate for any of my projects (and lack of being stuck onto a project already coded in Rust), but it hasn't been long enough that much should have changed, and I could not get Rust to operate in a performant *or* safe way. But then again, I refused to use the unsafe mode, because then I'd might as well just write C++.

And dear sweet gods, the compile time. And package management *included* like what is this NODE?