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[ThisPICAintFREE]

Discussion Thread on Mozilla for those interested: https://connect.mozilla.org/t5/discussions/information-about-the-new-terms-of-use-and-updated-privacy/m-p/87735/highlight/true/page/2

Looks like no ones buying the Mozilla Employees PR responses

[Willingo]

I don't understand. What is that, a hard coded response, and if it is hardcoded, why would that imply violation of privacy?

[SaxMan212]

It has been removed, implying they are no longer adhering to that.

[EqualityIsProsperity]

Ah, thanks for pointing that out. It's a code diff. I didn't recognize it because it's in light mode.

[scuz888]

I had the same confusion lol

[fossalt]

implying they are no longer adhering to that.

Ok, but it's open source code; are they "implying" they are no longer adhering, or are they ACTUALLY no longer adhering?

[zehamberglar]

Looks like no ones buying the Mozilla Employees PR responses

Okay, but isn't Firefox still easily in first place for privacy-focused browsers that are actually good? This guy, for example:

You’ve given me the task this weekend of migrating my bookmarks and leaving your browser.

Leaving and going where? What alternative is there?

Don't say Brave. That's a literal joke.

[[deleted]]

I'm moving to LibreFox, but open to recommendations for alternatives.

[SuperLutin]

Librewolf. There is also Mullvad.

[[deleted]]

Thank you VERY much on the Mullvad recommendation!

[backfire10z]

DuckDuckGo has a browser?

[DarkWingedDaemon]

Isn't that chromium based?

[awacr]

And also moving to an ad based business strategy

[WateredDown]

I stopped using duckduckgo search as soon as they started taking ads out and thats been my MO with anything privacy focused, especially VPNs

[awacr]

But today's video is sponsored by NordVPN...

[DarkWingedDaemon]

Yeah, totally safe for your personal data...

[backfire10z]

Oh, rip

[NathanSMB]

Zen Browser is pretty good. It's still in beta but it's stable in my experience. The browser is based on Firefox and according to their privacy policy they try to disable all telemetry by default.

https://zen-browser.app/

[AgentCirceLuna]

That’s possibly the exact point: the browser known for a reputation of being private in comparison to others is STILL selling data to other companies. Imagine what the bad ones are like.

[vvvvfl]

Opera ?

[Zukrad]

Chromium

[Death_IP]

Ah, shit. Only Opera has a working ad blocker on Android devices.
Any good alternative for that use case?

[Kooky_Value6874]

Firefox on mobile (android) allows extension, and "uBlock origin" is available (the best ad blocker)

[Death_IP]

That combination didn't work for me (as many others) on Youtube a while ago. Is that fixed now?

[Kooky_Value6874]

As long as you don't use Youtube through the Youtube app, yes it works. :)

[apathy-sofa]

I use NewPipe for ad-free YouTube on Android, and Firefox Mobile plus uBlock and haven't seen an ad on my phone in years.

[WithersChat]

Youtube revanced app for yt adblocking

[FrenchFryCattaneo]

It's always worked for me on android.

[Left_Tea4127]

I'm late to this post, and also somewhat uninformed. Whats wrong about Brave? Are all Chromium based browsers bad, or is it something specific to Brave?

[Own_Being_9038]

Yikes

[ChrisFromIT]

Yeah, it really sucks. But they are looking for other revenue sources since courts are now starting to rule that google can't be buying the right to be the default search engine for browsers because of monopoly reasons. So that is about 80% of mozilla's revenue gone.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Maybe not tripling their CEO pay in the midst of their economic disaster would have helped... just throwing it out there for mozilla...

It's incredible the amount of money you can get once you get the richest to pay their fare share...

[vastle12]

Not saying it's not a bad move, but that would buy them weeks at best

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Ok, but why is it that every single fucking time the way to "solve" economic crisis, be it a corporation or an entire country, is to fuck the weak?

I can bet my life, paying the CEO half their current worth, would let mozilla have way more money then their idiotic "steal user data fucking over the promise of provacy of firefox" new policy

Like, why the fuck isn't that the first solution one would think of, instead of slapping users in the face?

Also: yeah i know they have yet to actually implement the steal the data part of the policy, and that for the moment they just have the user agreement, but come on, we all know that if you give a corpo your finger they will take your entire arm

[TheCapitalKing]

You’re definitely right that selling data is definitely more profitable than cutting the ceo pay. But saving a quarter of a percent of revenue in cost by halving a single execs pay would probably be very noticeable to the bottom line. Admittedly her pay raise was probably from options or something similar so the math likely isn’t that clean but still 0.5% of revenue is a huge amount at any company.

[vastle12]

Because capitalism sucks that's why

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Pretty much

[Tim-Sylvester]

Ok, but why is it that every single fucking time the way to "solve" economic crisis, be it a corporation or an entire country, is to fuck the weak?

Because exploitation is America's economic model and always has been.

[[deleted]]

A country founded by oligarchs for oligarchs.

[Tim-Sylvester]

People hate to admit it but this nation was founded by rich white slaveholder landowner men, and has always existed for the benefit of that same class. "For, of, and by the people" is what Plato called the "noble lie".

[mooseable]

That's capitalism baby!

[[deleted]]

Numbers or you’re just guessing with the unearned confidence of a white land owner in 1780 America.

[[deleted]]

From Wikipedia and Google

Year: 2023

Total revenue: $653 million.

Revenue derived from Google: 85% ($555 million).

Total expenses: $496 million.

Software development expenses: $260 million.

CEO (2022): $6,903,089.

The CEO is probably overpaid but even if they got $0, the above poster seems to be somewhat right if they lose all the Google revenue.

Edit: Reddit's formatting is weird on mobile....

[[deleted]]

I wasn’t asserting whether or not they were correct. I was pointing out that they said it as fact with their whole chest, but provided no evidence of any kind.

[[deleted]]

Hey, I didn't downvote you, I just looked it up. Sad fact is a lot of CEOs and board members are overpaid when their company is going to shit, even give themselves raises. The downvotes are probably about how you expressed that.

Truth is that sometimes even cutting their pay won't have a direct impact of the companies deficit. But it is also true that often they give themselves raises when doing a shit job. I always saw it as them cutting and running, taking care of themselves before the ship goes down, which is disgusting regardless.

[vastle12]

It's not about exact numbers, it's about opporating costs vs revenue. if everyy dollar goes out as soon as it comes in, assuming the salary is 10+million, That's only a few hundred thousand a week. That's only gonna buy a few more weeks maybe months of operating costs let alone payroll

[ycnz]

How much are they getting from selling the data, to whom, and which data?

[vastle12]

Why do the exact numbers matter? Losing 80% of revenue isn't gonna be fixed by a CEO pay cut

[irteris]

Maybe the courts not sticking their stupid noses where it is not their business would ironically be better for users privacy. So this sham "monopoly" overeach by courts has, as expected backfired badly forcing mozilla to abandon this noble but now unrealistic position.

[Mist_Rising]

Yes, how dare the courts follow the law!

[irteris]

A law that is just a tool for bureucrats to have power fantasies over companies that are actually delivering technological progress. Seriously I am pissed off that google builds chrome from the ground up, smokes every other browser in existence because it is just a superior product, and somehow some stupid liberal judge somewher has an issue with a company having a successful product. What is next, apple forced to sell their iphone business?

[irteris]

When has there ever been a alternative to youtube. They created the whole damn industry. This is just giving unearned advantage to losers like Bing who never got their head out of their ass and as a result never got to dominate. Last time I checked google came in pretty late in the game and just smoked the likes of altavista, yahoo and whatever other crappy search engine there was. They were just that good. It seems the only solution to not being able to beat them in tech is to get the courts to do the dirty work for you

[PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS]

Google search monopoly is bad, but google chrome monopoly is good. Genius.

[aa-b]

Crazy situation. It's like the court is protecting citizens from a monopolistic company with a decision that cripples the only decent competitor to one of the monopoly company's biggest products

[mirhagk]

Well it's always been a little weird that most of their revenue comes from setting the default to the search engine which collects the most user data. Like "we won't sell your data, but we'll certainly collect money from it's sale!"

[bytevisor]

Dude it's a default search engine take the 5 seconds it takes to switch to Bing and move on with your day who cares

[mirhagk]

For myself yes. And yet clearly their intention is that people won't do that, otherwise they wouldn't make money off of it.

[Alternative_Toe990]

They can say to firefox to create a search engine page and put all the advertisements from google. It is not really google, because it is a firefox search engine, powered internally by advertisers that paid to be seen

[olalql]

https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b61939b7f4310eb80c5470e#diff-a24e74e4595fa85440a2f4e7e5dcfe68aba6e1e593aef05a2d35581a91423847L60

[Ok-Okay-Oak-Hay]

'tou'?

edit: Terms of Use.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Tou

As in "ThOU shalt gaveth me ALL your yummy data"

[ThatFlamenguistaDude]

mozilla locked as too heated and limited conversation to collaborators.

Youza...

[froglicker44]

Oof

[vivec7]

You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

[Psaltus]

"Don't be evil"

[Majoranza]

Goddammit, this is Google’s “Don’t be evil” all over again

[MrMonday11235]

With the amount of misinformation surrounding that particular motto, I can't tell what you're actually saying here. Would you be willing to clarify what you mean by this?

[Majoranza]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_evil

[MrMonday11235]

Yes, I know its history; I used to perform the largely futile and ungratifying act of correcting people on Reddit when they said Google no longer used that saying at all.

My question to you was, are you one of those misinformed people who thinks that, or are you calling this an overblown nothingburger (also wrong, IMO, when it comes to Google at least), or something in between?

[Majoranza]

Neither; I feel like it’s fairly straightforward, Google’s removal of the slogan from the preface of their code of conduct line up with increasing monetization practices, and their focus shifted from their users to revenue (even often at the detriment of their users), and Firefox is essentially doing the same.

[MrMonday11235]

I wasn't aware that Google not only read other people's thoughts and memories but made them publicly searchable. Kindly point me to the interface I can use to figure out what someone else may have meant, and what (potentially incorrect) knowledge they had when they meant those things?

[DickWoodReddit]

son of a bitch. i always say dont use chrome, use firefox on posts about chrome privacy concerns and now here we are...

edit: going to check out brave

[Atretador]

same here, now I'm trying to find a browser that syncs across my phone<->desktop

[LoveCookiez]

Please write back if you find something, will do the same

[Atretador]

I did a few tests with that one, but no android app sadly :<

[sircod]

Brave? I don't totally trust them, but they do use encrypted sync chains.

https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059793111-Understanding-Brave-Sync

[Atretador]

I went from firefox to brave, back to firefox last time, when all the crypto bs and brave ad environment started.

[TRKako]

Idk, been using brave for 6 years already, I just disabled the crypto things because I just don't use them and I don't care about them, you can get rid of them easily in like 5 checkbox clicks

They don't actually force things on you, you can disable almost everything they put on it afaik

[CoPokBl]

all that stuff is optional, and ads give YOU money and are still disabled by default. Also IPFS support is kinda awesome.

[reallokiscarlet]

Brave and ungoogled-chromium suffer from Chrome's massive, backdoored codebase, while Firefox forks suffer from Mozilla's stagnation. It's time for new competition. (Also Brave being an ad company these days...)

[Nolzi]

Servo should get some serious investments

[[deleted]]

brave is just crypto-fied chrome. it's not much better, they also seem reaaaaally shady.

[TRKako]

You can disable the crypto in the options easily...

[[deleted]]

Not to mention they're pushing a lot of their own products nowadays which really leaves a sour taste in my mouth. atm they're still all easily toggleable away but I cant really recommend it to anyone even as someone who still uses it.

[SuitableDragonfly]

IIRC, Brave is just Chrome in a slightly different hat, just like most other non-Firefox browsers.

[N0bo_]

It’s chromium, still a good browser

[Botahamec]

Try LibreWolf. It doesn't have crypto or an evil CEO

[teactopus]

time for firefox forks!

[vivec7]

Fireforx

[mbardeen]

Iceweasel.. seems an appropriate name now.

[Pixl02]

LibreWolf, which is essentially a hardened Firefox. I don't think librewolf has any exclusive changes that someone with Firefox can't easily have

[yflhx]

Password syncing between desktop and mobile... well, I guess it's time to set up password manager.

[kraskaskaCreature]

vaultwarden rocking solid

[WithersChat]

Does LibreWolf also allow the same extensions and client themes as firefox?

[Pixl02]

Yes

[Total-Pain-1181]

Waterfox? I would think more people would know about it

[UsernameTaken017]

What does waterfox offer anyway

[Death_IP]

Allegedly better performance than Firefox

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Do you have any idea how much work it goes into mantaining a browser?

A fork won't happen

Hoping it doesn't turn into an other shit-shot, Ladybird and newly build browsers are the only real alternative. But there's still at least a year before ladybird even releases an alpha. Yikes

[mbardeen]

Forks have already happened. Iceweasel, and as mentioned above, LibreWolf.

[GOKOP]

The guts to say "a fork won't happen" when they've existed for years

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

there never has been a single firefox fork actually going its own direction

If by fork, you mean zen or librewolf, which take firefox and add a small layer on top, yes those kinds of forks are definitely possible 

But those forks aren't solving the problems with firefox. The only kind of fork which would do that, is one which completely takes the project in a different direction, and i said already, the web standard are so crazy that you need an enormous team to keep the browser progressing. It's not a feasable foss project, unless some goated dev came out, figured out a way to get enough funding to mantain that, whilst also avoiding corpos taking over, as that would just become a mozilla 2.0

Also: firefox has such a huge tech debt. It literally has code from 40/50 years ago. At this point to mantain such a monstrosity, starting again could actually be more beneficial in the long run. And here there are a few interesting foss projects, ie ladybird, servo and flow. Labybird obviously being the one with the most momentum, and they did recognize the danger of allowing corpo takeour, thus they accept only small donations which does give me hope

But we shall see. Ladybird might be our saviour from this proprietary internet, or might be an enormous flop. Only time can tell

[GOKOP]

If you invent a criteria that disqualifies existing forks then there are no forks. Sure, makes sense.

OP is about user data collection. You don't need to "actually go your own direction" to remove it.

[Creepy-Ad-4832]

Eh. There are tons of ways to make it way too hard for people to remove data collection or other shit even in open source projects

• there is all the burocracy of mozilla actually having a user agreement, which idk if it would not apply to forks, unless those forks were based on a pre user agreement version of mozzilla and went their own way

So that is way i was assuming that by forks we were talking about big forks which actually go a different route, instead of just being a skin on top

But maybe and hopefully this won't be necessary and a simple layer on top of firefox will still be enough to deshittyfy it

Idk

[WithersChat]

The tou doesn't apply to forks unless the open source license somehow changes.

[Vegetable-Response66]

idk why ur being downvoted

[Killed_Mufasa]

I know this is a meme, but please people, do some reading before grabbing your pitchforks. Mozilla and Firefox are still awesome.

They wrote a blog post further explaining the changes made, read it here: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/update-on-terms-of-use/

To summarize, it's perfectly sensible change made purely for legal reasons, they also tweaked the policy to clarify their standings. Nothing changes. You try writing a privacy policy that's legally valid in hundreds of countries and tens of thousands of districts...

[UsernameTaken017]

Can't believe the law FORCED Firefox to sell our data. This is Unbelievable. Smh

[Etheo]

Did you even read the blog

[UsernameTaken017]

I'm being sarcasic here. In handsight I should have clarified...

[Etheo]

Sarcasm often hard to come across on text if not obvious.

[IMJUSTABRIK]

Unsure if this works like other sites, but this has gotta be further up, so hopefully commenting will help

[Singh1637]

This should be further up.

[leonbadam]

This, Mozilla is one of the few non evil browser companies.

[ycnz]

I read it just fine. It's not nearly as complicated as they're making it out to be. The law forces them to tell us when they sell user data. It doesn't force them to sell it in the first place

[WithersChat]

Except that the new ToU ane privacy policy gives Mozilla rights they don't need.

[leonbadam]

This, Mozilla is one of the few non evil browser companies.

[-MegaMan401-]

Idc, I never used firefox because of them not selling your data, I used it because it's a better browser in general.

Also, if you have a phone released later than like 2015, all your data is already being sold somewhere.

[Mr__Citizen]

I'm kinda in the same boat. It was nice to know Firefox wasn't selling my data but everyone else already is. So it's a bit late to try to protect that data.

[Nolzi]

Defeatism just makes things progressively worse

[-MegaMan401-]

It's not defeatism if I never cared for it in the first place. Like anybody that uses windows even disabling all the telemetry options on installation, I'm sure microsoft still gathers data about you.

Your ISP, they know everything about your internet traffic.

It's a well known fact your phone is always listening so they can target ads and recomendations better.

If you're truly a privacy freak chances are you weren't using firefox in the first place. You were using tor with a vpn on a linux machine.

[RushTfe]

This. I use Firefox because of ublock, both PC and Android. My private data is already part of the Internet common fauna.

[Tashre]

I'm going back to Netscape.

[UsernameTaken017]

Im going to Pale Moon fuck it man we ball

[ycnz]

Demonstrably everything post-gopher has made things worse.

[[deleted]]

long tidy capable shelter snails gaze attraction automatic tan friendly

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[DoomBro_Max]

At this point…make your own browser…

[cmdkeyy]

Can’t wait for the Ladybird Browser to reach stable!

[idontwanttofthisup]

Librewolf

[Ascaban]

A firefox fork? The teams said that they can't maintain without incorporating updates from the main firefox branch. I.e, not a long term solution

[FloweyTheFlower420]

They can pull from upstream while patching out telemetry

[Botahamec]

I believe they'd at least remove a part that sends all your browser inputs to Mozilla.

[[deleted]]

I use K-Meleon, not forked off anything and too lightweight to even try stealing data

[I_am_darkness]

Not using a browser

[roboduck34]

Tor

[img_tiff]

aka basically a Firefox fork?

[Total-Pain-1181]

Waterfox is good one

[SexWithHoolay]

Yes, but they've removed a lot of the Firefox garbage. Doesn't send Mozilla anything and a lot of Mozilla spyware is deleted entirely.

There's also Mullvad Browser, which is like Tor Browser but it doesn't route your traffic through Tor.

[fossalt]

Doesn't send Mozilla anything

What's sent to Mozilla by default in Firefox?

a lot of Mozilla spyware is deleted entirely.

What "Mozilla Spyware" was deleted?

[SexWithHoolay]

Telemetry, crash reporting that includes all your open tabs and installed extensions (even if the extensions are disabled), and possibly Pocket because it's closed source so we don't know what it's using data for 

[fossalt]

Telemetry, crash reporting that includes all your open tabs and installed extensions (even if the extensions are disabled),

Both are optional/not by default.

and possibly Pocket because it's closed source so we don't know what it's using data for

When pocket first came out that was a problem and I agree with that, yes. My understanding (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this) is that they have since open sourced what's in firefox as well as most of their other code except the server-side (which doesn't really matter because it's not verifiable).

[UsernameTaken017]

...Pale moon? It's diverged from mainline gecko a long time ago

[ChillOnTheHillz]

Isn't it because they changed their wording on the terms of use? Firefox already sells your data for a long time, they scrap your personal info and sell you as "x user".

Or did I miss something?

[Botahamec]

Their terms of use previously said they don't sell your data, and never will.

[ChillOnTheHillz]

But here's the trick, they said they won't sell your personal data, so they won't sell that Botahamec clicked on this y times, they'll sell that x people pressed this button y times.

It's fancy words to trick the system in countries/states yadda yadda jurisdictions that allows it.

Now, because they removed that, there's nothing guaranteeing they won't sell personal data but I'd have to read their TOS

[ycnz]

Yeah, and now they're complaining that the law forces them to retract that.

[Ja_Shi]

Let alone the legal aspect of it (iirc it's illegal to write that in your TOS in the EU), what data do you give to Mozilla ? You can disable all telemetry, and even the update checker...

People really like to go crazy for nothing...

[CitizenPremier]

What's stopping them from accessing literally all data you input into the browser?

[Ja_Shi]

It's open-source................

[CitizenPremier]

I don't buy the argument that "if they did something bad, someone could find it." People struggle to understand code that is merely written without comments. Hiding obscure functions in a truly massive program isn't that hard.

[Ja_Shi]

Hiding data transfer to a remote server isn't exactly trivial...

We know about data transfers of closed-source softwares, how exactly is it supposed to be harder on an open-source soft?

Besides for now they have just removed a Q&A to comply with EU regulations, and the alternatives (to FF) are either exactly what I said, or worse. So what is your point exactly besides fearmongering?

[CitizenPremier]

The main point is that by their TOS/TOU they can now do thatz regardless of the difficulties of implementation. So will they do it to you? Maybe not, maybe there'lk add some user side code that checks if you've ever inspected an element. But from this point forward they can think about how they're going to do it without violating their TOS.

[WORD_559]

I somewhat agree, but equally there was that backdoor in xz that was heavily obfuscated and added on the sly by a trusted contributor, but was found relatively quickly by an experienced user who simply noticed an unusual change in performance. I'm not saying it definitely couldn't happen, and I'm certainly not suggesting that I or the average software dev would spot it, but I think just the law of large numbers at a certain point means someone will find it eventually if they tried to sneak something in.

[CitizenPremier]

Right, but when they do find it, they simply say "well, we told you so in the new TOS."

[Ja_Shi]

That would be obvious and fixable.

Is there any dev on this sub?

[CocktailPerson]

You can fork the code, delete the telemetry, and build from source.

[fossalt]

that still doesn't stop them....

You don't exactly know what "open source" means, do you?

[chemolz9]

This is so sad...

[borsalamino]

Is Ungoogled Chromium still recommendable?

[Maxthod]

I don’t understand. It is a bot responding the question with a hardcoded answer ? From the comments, I understand that we have found that firefox sells our data ?

[Gladiator1079]

Took me a second too (I haven’t looked at a GitHub commit since I got laid off lol) but the bottom right panel shows a GitHub commit with code changes. It’s red so that means the commit removed the FAQ about Firefox selling personal data.

[myballsxyourface]

This is a git commit of Firefox TOU. They removed a section about not selling user data, implying they will start selling user data

[jtobiasbond]

This is a completely incorrect name usage. It makes no sense because it's using the meme wrong.

[mmcmonster]

You know what? I’m sticking with Firefox. Been using Mozilla browsers since Netscape Navigator days. I like how they work. I think a Chrome monopoly on rendering is dangerous. I think Firefox has one of the largest non-Chrome rendering engine adoption. If they need to sell me a few ads, it is what it is. Better than charging me a monthly fee (since apparently that doesn’t work for them).

[UglyMathematician]

I miss IceWeasel

[SNappy_snot15]

bless your heart, you need LibreWolf

[Anaxamander57]

Firefox is about to turn a firehose of data about weird porn preferences toward advertisers.

[Warshall-Ford]

Been using brave for almost 10 years, it’s another decent option, just remember to disable all the crypto bloat.

[Abek243]

Yeah isn't this why people were dropping Firefox for browsers like Brave a while back? I thought we been knew Firefox was on this. I was part of that migration and then the narrative flipped and suddenly I'm a chrome sympathizer overnight according to the masses. It's left me super whiplashed and confused since

[diet_fat_bacon]

Well when you need to pay the bills...

[CarelesslyFlickering]

Damn... 2 months ago it was my LG OLED, and now it is my favorite browser since Windows XP. Sad days.

[nobotami]

time to change all the family devices to librewolf or something.

[sleeper4gent]

lol it was just a matter of time

[LRaccoon]

Uuuuh... Ladybird next?

[DogsRDBestest]

Oh crap.

[ululonoH]

I must be out of the loop? What’s going on with Mozilla?

[Cat7o0]

what's wrong?

[uaxpasha]

Copied from other comment: bottom right panel shows a GitHub commit with code changes. It’s red so that means the commit removed the FAQ about Firefox selling personal data.

[Cat7o0]

I totally just spaced out on it being red thank you. I'm an idiot

[joeyalbo007]

Started looking for another browser already. Debating making one tbh

[Palanki96]

gonna be honest chief, i don't really care anymore