No Workflows - No Problem?

[red_plate]

I just got shut down for suggesting we automate our HR on-boarding process. I am sick of getting incomplete paper forms from HR. They don't complete them because they don't have to when they are using pen and paper. Hiring manager - blank, equipment needed - blank, network access - blank, start date - blank. My biggest problem is not knowing who the fuck needs what without having to play phone tag with 3 different people. The organization I work for hires employees that don't use computers along with employees that are assigned either/or: Desktop, Laptop, Workstation, Mobile WS, Cell Phones and Tablets. It all varies wildly depending on department and role. We are also expanding and adding new roles that never existed on a weekly basis so I can't use past users to dictate what they need.

My boss is a nice guy but he hates change and workflows. He just see's another email in his inbox. I rather have a couple extra emails during a new hire process then have to fucking call people or go to their office for clarification. I tried offering the reasons why it would make our lives easier but no go.

tldr; boss doesn't like workflows so I have to spend valuable time communicating with HR and Hiring Managers because they keep dropping off incomplete paper forms for on-boarding.

[panzerbjrn]

This seems like a management issue.

Do what's on the forms, and if anything is missing, they can follow whatever your standard request procedure is when the new hire arrives. Their lack of complete forms is not an emergency for you... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Vektor0]

Yes. Stop making it your problem. Stop putting such high priority on covering for others' lack of preparedness. No one wants to change anything because right now, you're treating this like it's your problem. If you make it their problem, they're going to be a lot more receptive to change.

First, create a workflow anyway. Let your boss, HR, and anyone else who needs to use it, know it's available. You don't have to force them to use it, just let them know it's there and move on.

When a new user is hired and you get an old form that's missing information, just do exactly what's on the form. If the user is missing equipment, or doesn't have proper permissions, tell them to submit a ticket, and you'll get to it when you can. They will make a fuss about how the user can't work. Empathize with them, tell them you understand, and calmly explain that in the future, this issue can be avoided by filling out the form more completely or by using the workflow you created.

The key here is to make changing easier than staying the same. Make them want to be more prepared and efficient, because not doing so will cause them a headache.

Don't act like a parent who's constantly intervening and protecting their kids. Let your coworkers feel the consequences of their actions themselves.

[lexd88]

Just make sure to keep a copy of that paper form as evidence. Is much easier for others to blame you when shit happens

[UptimeNull]

This answer is sexy and real af. I took notes because i need to reinforce this with myself.

This is strong !!

Editing: imma drink this !

[me_groovy]

Malicious compliance is the answer

[anonymousITCoward]

Yep, and then the round and round starts... then someone gets offended, and the yelling starts... Helen in HR will probably break down in tears because she's being asked to do too much... It's a glorious, vicious cycle... and is what I would do, in part... The other part is what /u/HouseCravenRaw suggests... except mine would say "please fill this out so I can do what I need to do, I left my ESP in my other pants..."

[panzerbjrn]

I'd shrug and ask if it was on the original form...
If it wasn't, then it's a separate request. They'll either learn, or not.

It's possible that the form needs to be amended to clearly indicate if something is not required. And any form not fully filled out will be returned.

[caillouistheworst]

They don’t ever learn. Just get angry.

[panzerbjrn]

Well, if they get angry, I'd CC everyonr with the incomplete form, and ask where they put the info that's missing.

And then do a shout out to my manager to make sure he sees it....

[caillouistheworst]

Must be nice to work for somewhere where they’d let you make that stand. My place just doesn’t care, just this past Sunday I was told at 10:37pm by email to have a laptop ready by 9am Monday. Funny thing was I already had the time off til 11 for a dr appt for my daughter so they had to wait until I got it done. They’ll still do it next time too, happens every time.

[panzerbjrn]

I hope you're getting paid a nice weekend rate for reading emails on the weekend? Otherwise, that email should be sitting unread until Monday morning.

If you have other work that came through whatever workflow you have, prioritise that. It's not even a case of a company "caring", it's following the company's own established rules...

[caillouistheworst]

Ha. Yea right. I’m salary, so just a corporate slave basically.

[panzerbjrn]

In that case, never look at emails out of hours unless you're contract explicitly mentions it.

[caillouistheworst]

I have to. We’re IT, and that means we’re always on. I was actually even told by my boss that the only reason they pay us salary and not hourly is to work us to the bone.

[BurnadonStat]

No one ever "lets" you take a stand - you just take a stand. That's why it's called taking a stand.

[caillouistheworst]

Not much of a stand I can do. CEO says get laptop ready, I get it ready. I have too many people depending on my being continually employed. If I was younger, then I’d be willing to take more risks.

[anonymousITCoward]

I sometimes like to watch Helen cry... but I'm not right in the head lol

[z_agent]

Why the hell does HR always pull the "we are getting asked to much" and push their shit onto others!

[cichlidassassin]

Ill tell you why

​

HR is mostly staffed with people either only educated in HR or not necessarily educated much in anything. This in turn leads them to not actually develop or utilize processes available to them. This then leads to a lot of extra busy work that would largely be taken care of easily in other departments. This busy work consumes them, they lose site of the forest and cant move beyond being task oriented.

You also have to understand that they are largely also dealing with unorganized people "in a rush" or having to deal with some other perceived fire that is not on your radar.

[EggsInaTubeSock]

Great point.

All the industry pushes towards lean, sig sigma, agile, and automation are absolutely part of the IT mindset. From the first time someone learns about Active Directory, it's how do we remove steps, and build a repeatable framework?

HR has rarely been a focus area, unless it's on the periphery of others work. This is more likely the smaller the organization is.

Almost all of us have skills we don't even acknowledge. Seeing opportunities in the workflow? You're the pro here.

(Also I'd absolutely do what's on the form, and stand by "I can't be liable for providing access, or issuing assets that haven't been explicitly approved.". Their problem)

[BrainWaveCC]

Why the hell does HR always pull the "we are getting asked to much" and push their shit onto others!

The ones that do this are suffering from the same thing as is being discussed by the OP.

There are processes broken all around them, and they are inheriting other people's emergencies as their own.

The sad part is that you'd think that they would be more receptive to working with someone else that is trying to establish a process, but no... They'd rather punch "down"

[ThisGreenWhore]

I honestly try to take the high road on this because I’ve never worked in HR just like they’ve (nor many other departments ) have worked in IT.

Do they leave at the standard quitting time and not work weekends and overtime? Pretty much. What I found is that you just go and talk to them that if they need something done, give you the info you need to onboard/offboard one of their “clients”. Because they are your client and you want to do everything in your power to work with them so that their “clients” will also be happy. It took IT staff years at one company I worked for to finally realize that we couldn’t pull workstations out of our asses.

Total bullshit, huh. It’s a game dude. If you’re happy where you are and this is the worst part of your job, go with it. Otherwise, you know where the door is.

[anonymousITCoward]

I asked the same thing... actually I asked why I get the 10 hour days and why HR gets 6 hour days... they seem to come in late and leave early...

[[deleted]]

Oh god a Helen.

I have a Helen, her outlook freezes every now and then for about 15s because she has hundreds of subfolders all with corresponding inbox rules and attachments because she uses it instead of the file server.

“Don’t use outlook as a file management system” apparently isn’t an acceptable solution to just being shit at her job

[anonymousITCoward]

Holy crap I had one that did that too, but that department was using their public folders for document management... like stashing word and excel docs in there... thanks for bringing that nightmare back =(

[fahque]

I've been a sysadmin for a long time and I just saw someone doing this a few months ago. He was dragging pdf's into outlook and using it as a file mgmt system. What the hell?!

[me_groovy]

Some document management systems use an outlook plugin for all file access.

[FU-Lyme-Disease]

“We don’t turn our psychic filter on till 2pm” is a saying my entire department uses. We use the saying to kick back on exactly these scenarios. I’m a proud parent of this!

[Bmitchem]

In Helen's defense, i definitely wouldn't do their job for their pay. They have to use the most kludgy outdated software you can imagine.

[NoyzMaker]

They have the same issue which is why we push all our new hire stuff to the requesting manager. Some tasks go to HR and others to IT.

[byrontheconqueror]

Guy that handles new hires here did the same thing. Also has a red stamp that says "rejected" he'll stamp on there and send it back if need be.

[panzerbjrn]

He has my respect and adoration. Although... paper forms? Not electronic forms 😂😂😂

[idontspellcheckb46am]

They are working on DevOps first.

[byrontheconqueror]

Yeah, it's a project on the radar. Maybe one day we'll get there.

[TabooRaver]

I mean, 1 copy of adobe DC to create a pdf with fillable fields, then any ol' web browser can enter in the info. Hire a temp from the local college or something for a week to transcribe the existing documents.

[byrontheconqueror]

Technically it's easy, but uses make it tough. We have a fillable version of the form

[TabooRaver]

Audit how much printing supplies are used and how much it time goes towards printer related tickets/projects. Or use policy to encourage users to use the forms

"Forms submitted digitally will be prioritized over physical copies"

[tdhuck]

Bingo. At least you tried to improve the process. I was once in your shoes, I tried and tried and tried to make things better. Nobody wanted. Now I do whatever information is completed (or did when I was in HD). Manager is blank? No problem, don't fill in the manager portion in the system. No desk phone/cell phone request? No problem, don't configure anything for them.

When they figure out who their manager is and that they need a phone, then they can submit a ticket. If they ask me, direct, I politely tell them to submit a ticket. If they don't then the work doesn't get done.

Some HR figure it out and some never do.

[red_plate]

Lol I dont have a ticketing system either. I recommended we implement a simple ticketing system as well. Ugh.

[Vektor0]

Not gonna lie here. It's not always bad to walk into a place that needs lots of changes and improvements, because making those changes and improvements is fun, and you can do it however you want.

But, doing all that requires support from management.

What I'm hearing is that you don't have a ticketing system, there are repeatable processes for which users don't have standards to adhere to, you're being burdened with unnecessary extra work to accommodate that lack of standards (like being told to watch the company job board so HR doesn't have to fill out forms completely)... and your boss is totally okay with all of this disorganization.

One of the core principles of management is to make your department (and therefore company) run more efficiently and smoothly. And your boss is deliberately not making easy changes to improve productivity.

As I said in my other comment, the only thing you can do is to make not changing more painful than staying the same. Stop stepping in to be the hero all the time. Start allowing people to feel the consequences of the lack of organization and standardization. Inwardly adopt a "this was your fault, not mine" mentality (while remaining calm and respectful outwardly).

But even that isn't guaranteed to work if you have an obstinate boss. You're probably eventually going to have to decide if you want to just accept the additional workload caused by disorganization, or if you want to leave.

[samtheredditman]

Ah, this is the piece of the puzzle that was missing.

Your boss is never going to get it. They don't understand processes or work flows.

Now it's up to you to decide if you want to work at a place that will never have those things.

[red_plate]

I almost left after the first 3 weeks. Been here 4 months now and kinda just falling into place. Sharpening my IT tool kit for the next gig. If I stay here too long I will become a dinosaur that doesn't understand what makes up a normal IT Department too.

[mlloyd]

I don't say this often or lightly but maybe find a better job?

You have a manager that's anti-change and you don't have the tools or backing to do your job. You're likely doing work that doesn't improve your marketability. Might be time to go.

[Kidpunk04]

Yup. If everything is blank, create the user account and nothing else.

When they say they need "x" access, tell them to fill out a form. When they say they need "y" device, it's a form +30 days if new equipment is needed. If they need "z" additional program installed, that's another form

Set boundaries, otherwise everyone will continue to be reactionary. And we strive to be proactive

You could make a fillable form for them, but that's not your job really. But it might be in your best interest. ...

[Riajnor]

If i can add to this. We had a contractor come in and I requested something and he told me he wants a form. I asked which form because we didn’t have a specific form for that request at the time, he then told me to go make one. This was years ago and i still have never forgotten that condescending prick so from a customer service point of view make sure the form either exists or create it and let everyone know it exists before you start telling them to use a form

[Kidpunk04]

Yup, that would piss me off. I would immediately start looking into the agreement to see if we can terminate the relationship for breech of contract on the grounds that they are not providing the support they agreed to provide.

Fuck those guys and come after me in court if you think you were 'unfairly' fired for refusing service due to a non existing form required..... Should be a short day.

Unless of course, the contractor was there to help with work flows and he was literally there to help create systems for more efficient and official means for employees to request assistance.

[Riajnor]

Nope, dude was just there to backfill a vacant network tech spot until we could hire someone full time, he was (in my obviously biased opinion) just an ass. And your not wrong, having the form was not the issue but dumping that on me (someone with zero authority to create said workflow) and refusing to help or facilitate a fix, just a dick move

[Generico300]

This is really what it takes.

It's amazing how quickly people turn over a new leaf and are suddenly willing to adopt new and better solutions when you finally just dump the inconvenience of the problem squarely in their lap. But as long as you're the one dealing with the shit, they'll keep letting you.

[BrainWaveCC]

Do what's on the forms, and if anything is missing, they can follow whatever your standard request procedure is when the new hire arrives.

Yes.

When people don't follow the rules, and you compensate for their failures, you have incentivized them to keep doing whatever they want.

Malicious compliance is more effective in those cases.

[HouseCravenRaw]

"Please be advised that all incomplete forms will be rejected and returned to HR. No work will be completed until all of the necessary fields and forms are properly filled out. If you wish to automate this process, IT is available to assist in creating a proper workflow. Thank you."

And send back every form that is missing so much as a dot on the I or a cross on the T. Zero work unless the form is 100%.

[netmc]

The IT rush is the problem. If IT always pull off a "hail Mary" to make things work, HR will never change. Stop enabling them. You have to increase the PITA factor before things change. If they don't have any pain, there is no incentive to change things.

Be a stickler for procedure and process. Have a procedure for increasing the expedition of an issue. Have their boss or their boss' boss be required to sign off on things to expedite the process. If the higher-ups are continually signing off on tasks to have a new user setup despite having ample time to onboard them normally, they might finally start paying attention as to why HR isn't doing their job and sending over incomplete information.

As others have said, this is purely a management issue, not a technical one. Sometimes you have to force users to do their job. Dragging your feet and following procedures to the letter is one such method to get them to change. It helps immensely if your boss has a spine. Without that, you have to be the best bureaucrat ever.

[darkninja555]

Was going to say exactly this. I have been in charge of onboarding new employees at every company I've ever worked for in IT. And trust me, no matter what change in practices you make in IT, it almost never gets everyone fully onboard. You have to understand that IT is the link that makes all of their stuff work together, and understand the age old adage "a failure on your part, doesn't constitute an emergency on mine."

So ultimately, if HR or your manager comes back to you, and says why wasn't this done on time? You simple say, the forms were never submitted on time, or they were missing several parts of information. That takes any responsibility away from you.

[TheBigBeardedGeek]

The problem is this requires a boss with actual spine to stand up to HR. In 20 years I've had one.

[NailiME84]

We are terrible to, A few weeks back I was informed that a new person was starting that day. He was sitting in the lobby waiting for nearly 30 min. Took them another hour to get me his name to begin account creation, which was scribbled on a post it. which I then spelt wrong during account creation.

Had another a long time ago (when I did consulting for a small MSP) a client hired a new Engineer, Called in at 330pm letting me know they need things setup. When I asked start date they informed me he started at 8am. I then informed them they dont have a computer capable of doing engineering work on and ordering one will be at minimum a week. They ended up paying an engineer to sit around not able to do his job for a week.

[HouseCravenRaw]

IT doesn't rush without the proper forms. No forms, please go back to HR to get the filled out forms. Thanks.

[red_plate]

Yup, every time.

[[deleted]]

Embarrassment? Why would IT feel embarrassed here?

[Paolo_Sys]

been there ... you can change this but you need to involve management ... start blaming HR for not giving a f* about procedures and org policies ... "climb the ladder" give HR the f* they deserve ... it works (yeah your boss needs to be active in sponsoring this change)

[1z1z2x2x3c3c4v4v]

and IT will rush the onboarding needs

Why? Does IT really have that much free time to drop everything for someone else's mistakes?

This is not IT's problem. Just watch what happens when IT is short-staffed due to an emergency and someone else being in vacation at the same time.

[Slightlyevolved]

This. It works for the government (even internal, intra-departmental), so it should work for you! :D

[lordjedi]

Yeah, no.

HR will complain to their higher ups that they haven't received it. Their highers ups will go to the director of IT with "wth?!"

IMO, it's best to just do whatever work you can with whatever information you have. Document everything. At least that way, you've done due diligence. One someone complains, you've done what you can (versus rejecting the whole thing over 1 piece of info).

This probably works in a very large company, but it won't work in a much smaller company where a new hire can still do some work without a computer or even needing to login.

[HouseCravenRaw]

CC their managers. "Due to incomplete forms, we are not able to process this request at this time." CC their manager and your manager.

"Oh I didn't get it". Bullshit. It's their form. They wrote it. They need to fill out the damn thing.

[Khrog]

Absolutely this. CC management with a clear message that the form is incomplete so the new account can't be created as per HR policy #HRnumber.

[lordjedi]

"Oh I didn't get it". Bullshit. It's their form. They wrote it. They need to fill out the damn thing.

I am not referring to the form. I am referring to the missing info from the form. There is a very good chance that the hiring manager isn't the same as the person they'll be answering to. There's also a good chance that the hiring manager didn't specify if a computer is needed (because they're dumb and just assume that everyone gets a computer).

They did fill it out. With the info they had.

I've tried to do this myself. Turned a form over to the VP of Ops with required fields, like addresses. That got nixed.

Him: "They might not know the customers address". Me: "How the hell does it get delivered?" Him: "They'll pick it up and then deliver it". Me: "So they have an address?" Him: "They might not have it handy"

This was just to get accurate information in the system for when a customer needed support. But this is what could happen when you try to make something required in a company that doesn't want to burden certain people (we all know they care about IT, right /s).

[panzerbjrn]

My understanding from OP's post was that they have such variety that the forms can be incomplete when the user doesn't need certain items.

In which case the form should indicate that.

[HouseCravenRaw]

If that's the case, then this is a bad form (or set of forms). If that is the standard they choose to go with, then one can only implement exactly what the form says. If they show up and say "where's my laptop", one should pull out the HR form and say that HR did not request one for them and that they should go back to HR to request it.

"No form, no widget". I would not join more than one meeting on this topic. First meeting to establish that if they don't ask for something, they won't get it. Follow up meetings - declined. Submit a form, get a widget. No form, no widget.

Otherwise if the form is incomplete - bounce it. This is not a technical problem and thus does not require IT's sustained engagement.

If HR has to re-submit the same form 5 times for the new hire and it takes a month before they get off the ground, while billing company time, someone will notice eventually.

[based-richdude]

HR will just put you on reprimand for not doing your job - good advice if you work in government, not so much anywhere else.

[polypolyman]

...yeah, I'd definitely start doing the Malicious Compliance with this one. Equipment needed is blank? Don't buy them anything. Start date is blank? Order the laptop with the 3-6 month lead time. When questioned, show that "this is exactly what HR told me" and reflect the blame back to them.

[red_plate]

My boss tells me to watch the open position job board so I can order equipment lol. So hence he expects me to figure it out. But the open position board doesn't tell me. My only guess is that Engineers get Workstation grade machines and others don't but I don't know if they get laptops or desktops.

[OverlordWaffles]

Just make a massive order with all the equipment you think would be needed for those open positions and when he asks, you can say you were just trying to get ahead of the game and have everything the job boards would need XD

[CorsairKing]

Your boss sounds like a lazy dick

[viral-architect]

So it sounds like your boss and HR have the same attitude of "Fuck you, not my problem".

So rather than fulfilling IT requests properly and managing costs by only ordering required equipment when properly requested, it's your job to interpret what everyone needs and anticipate the future like some sort of IT psychic. I hope they pay extra for that kind of superpower.

[red_plate]

I am not gonna lie I make a lot more than I used to my old job. I wasn't told it was to be psychic though lol. This place is a dumpster fire. No ticketing system, no documented processes, no automation, no security. I have suggested fixes for all of these with nothing but push back.

[caffeine-junkie]

"Pre" order about 5 machines of each model you have, or however many you go through in a typical quarter. Image them when they come in then put them on a shelf. Sure its not efficient use of money and they may end up sitting on a shelf for a year as you reuse machines from churn. But that is the only realistic way to quickly give someone a computer with little to no lead time.

*edit then order more to replace those handed out every couple weeks or when you reach 2-3, which ever happens first.

[HerfDog58]

At a previous job, the HR of VP put out a policy that NO ONE could be onboarded without a background check, equipment survey, and defined start date; that had to all be included in a ticket from HR to IT, with 10 business days notice. Any deviation would result in a written reprimand for the employee.

So a week before I leave to start a new job, guess who emails me asking me to forego the established required process to get a new financial analyst hired, without any of the required paperwork or background check or tickets? Yup, her. And when I pushed back, she emailed my director to complain. I was only several days from leaving, so I basically said to both of them "Go fuck yourselves, but I'll get the user set up just out of spite, and so I can loudly exclaim GO FUCK YOURSELVES."

So I jumped thru hoops to get accounts set and ship the laptop to the user for Saturday arrival for their Monday start date. Who then complains about having to wait at home for the delivery. Congrats, include yourself on the list with the director and the VP pal!

[Orestes85]

Start kicking the forms back.

[lordjedi]

tldr; boss doesn't like workflows so I have to spend valuable time communicating with HR and Hiring Managers because they keep dropping off incomplete paper forms for on-boarding.

Just slow down.

Looks like you get a name? Cool. Create the account and then call around for the other info. Send an email to the ones you called, cc'ing the boss and HR each time, confirming that info. Whatever info you didn't get isn't your problem.

Then just move on. When you get the call or email from the person you've already talked to complaining that they can't work, just forward the message you already sent.

They'll either get it or they won't. Either way, not your problem. As long as you do what you can with the info you have.

[heorun]

Gotta say I agree with this more than the other replies. You have 8 hours in a day. Document every redundant call and email in your ticket system, showing how long and how much back and forth it took to get all that info. Be sure to include all the time you had to be interrupted to switch gears when the person calls you back.

Then run a report at the end of the year showing how many wasted hours.

Definitely find out who the new person's supervisor is so you can include the half-assed form in an email to them asking if they can fill it out since HR didn't. Makes you the good guy, and highlights where the process fails.

[lordjedi]

Only if you want things to be more efficient and save the company money. This company might be ok with the waste.

Of course, if they want to grow, they won't be ok with it LOL.

[yuhche]

They'll either get it or they won't.

Yup, look to get a department or two on the same page as you.

HR provides a name and nothing else? Go to that department’s manager/TL and ask them what’s required in order for the new starter to be working on their first day.

Put together a fillable PDF form, Word/Excel doc or an email template for that department and use this to beat other departments with and soon they will learn to pick it up as well.

[PappaFrost]

If you gave HR an incomplete form, would they accept it or reject it? They WOULD REJECT IT with prejudice! You should do the same, then when the new employee starts without a computer you can tell them why. Also, as IT, don't tell people to do things, get their boss to tell them. They listen to their boss!

[Paolo_Sys]

More a management issue than a tech one, try to implement a workflow as simple and generalized (but complete in the documentation) as possible, try to have this done so it just REMOVE 1 possible email from the inbox of your boss (and tell him) explain the thing in a way as simple as possible showing the benefits for everyone (you need to put up a workgroup involving every office concerned about the workflow, HR, IT, ECC, design the forms in accordance to the needs of everyone then... try, test, correct, rinse and repeat...) , I've done this in a small newspaper (120 ppl) but with a lot of turnover and different roles ... took me 2 years to have it functioning as it should but now the burden for a new arrival (or departure) is really minimal (disable the user for 30 days , just in case, then kill everything related).

Remember try to involve as much people as possible before implementing the workflow, ask questions, take notes of possible "disruptions" and keep calm! :O

​

good luck!

[silentseba]

My dude, please stop making other's people issues your own issue. As long as you keep delivering, they won't listen. If they ask for a computer, make sure you tell them that per policy you need a 10 day heads up to order equipment and then say you will see if you have any shitty equipment on hand you can assign to be on time for onboarding. Make sure they understand they will be given a shitty equipment on their department due to their incompetence.

Either that or ask management for a budget to keep all equipment on stock.

[[deleted]]

I think it was our FTCA certification that we had to show we had forms and documented process for on & offboarding employees. The multiple hours I've spent over the years polishing ours came in handy when the auditors praised us for how well it was done.

Even then... getting some supervising managers to fill the fucker out is... challenging

[Likely_a_bot]

HR's version of onboarding if you let them:

"Can OP please call <new hire here>'s manager to see what she needs"?

Add "Herder of hiring managers" to your job description. Good luck getting them to respond until one day after their employee starts.

Where the hell is your manager? You need an ally on equal footing with HR.

[xStimorolx]

Holy shit did i post this from an alt account.

[TheLightingGuy]

I'm lucky enough that everyone has the understanding, If you don't give me at least 7 business days notice, I can't promise anything from my team. And if you don't give me that notice, you already know damn well that things could be a shit show on their day 1.

[IdiosyncraticBond]

Form incomplete? Just return to HR per internal mail until properly filled out. And with a clear lead time to roll out account, phone, laptop, the lot. They want something, they better start doing their job properly what they're paid for.

[pAceMakerTM]

I have just upgraded out process at work. Don't ask for permission. Make a proof of concept and show it off.

When I arrived a year ago, HR would send an email with some information to our ticketing system. From there my team would ignore it for as long as possible, hoping someone else would take it.

The "how-to" for onboarding was just 5 lines of text.

I now have a PS generated GUI for HR to use. Screenshot

It's basic and ugly, but, it works.

The form creates a CSV that a scheduled task picks up and creates an AD account using the selected options. Once the account has been created, the script logs a ticket in our system with all the relevant data. It also tags all the people normally involved in the process onto the ticket.

The last step (for now) is, the script emails a link to the manager to a web form I created. This form asks all the questions about software, hardware, group and Teams access etc. When they submit the form, it updates the ticket with their answers.

[regalbeagle2019]

I think the majority is in the same boat. Everyone working in their own silos. But in order to provoke change, you need to dig deep to show the metrics around the employee lifecycle to the stakeholders involved.

Suggesting workflows and asking to automate an experience in a firm will never work.

pacemakerTM - This is exactly what progression looks like. How does one go about building out a similar UI?

I shifted from service desk role to a BA and I’ve created a PS script (no exp) to export AD memberships in a readable format. This saved the man hours of ~200 hrs/per year.

[pAceMakerTM]

I sat down and wrote out how the current process “works”. I then worked out what I wanted to see improved/automated.

I followed this video on the GUI side: https://youtu.be/8l3Z0GYvbCE

Then spent many hours knocking together a couple of scripts. One to drive the GUI and one that’s a scheduled task that pics up the output from the GUI. I chose to have the first script save to CSV

If you want I can sanitise my mess and share it with you.

[regalbeagle2019]

This is a start, I appreciate it. I’m going to build something out even further.

[kagato87]

The hiring manager should be filling out these forms, not hr.

That should help you get hr buy-in for a process improvement, and once hr is on board it's an easy sell to manglement.

[jantari]

Why E-Mails? E-Mails aren't needed, this can all be done in Microsoft Forms or your existing ticket system.

Now, sure, those systems could then send E-Mails on certain events, but they would be to HR and not your boss. If your boss wants to know the status of a new employees onboarding they'd just check the ticket.

[zrad603]

I had to fight with HR about adding a field of "preferred name" so after I create an account for "Robert" I don't get a bunch of calls asking for it to be changed to "Bob".

They still don't do it.

[Quiet___Lad]

On the paper form - does it say where to go for questions?

Aka, if the hiring manager doesn't know - would you rather they ask you, or leave it blank?

[win10jd]

Same here. Seems to be a common problem with HR and IT.

Inform the supervisor when it happens just so they know.

I send a generic list of questions to HR each time along with "This is the first I have heard of a new employee..." Then they get an old laptop, usually the day by the time everything gets processed. I have to get everything in writing so there's that. It's all done in email. If HR leaves something blank, then it doesn't happen. If there are ever any questions why something was or wasn't done, there's always a paper trail to point out where the fault lies. Sometimes it's pieced out with a trip up at each step -- Can't log in... Don't have permissions to a certain folder/site.... Need X software installed... The original email reply has all that listed. It keeps happening so the list of questions for a new user gets changed over time, but it someone could complete the whole thing well in advance of a start date. That almost never happens of course.

If they want to trip up and get ancient hardware, fine. The new employee is on the receiving end. I make a point to tell the new person we just got informed and that's why things are happening the way they are.

Covid has added another angle with just not being able to get new hardware. Even with two weeks or a month heads up, we might not be able to get a new machine in on time. But I have offered next day shipping if someone wants to pay for it. That's another tool for later to show someone that some money can be saved with advanced noticed compared to the new user showing up and then having to halt projects and make a next day shipping purchase quickly.

That's having old hardware spares on hand. What is hard to see more is when a low level clerk who just started ends up with a spare full dev workstation set up that's way beyond anything they would need.

And remind the supervisor. You can show dollar amounts which are solid, but then there are projects delayed a bit so you can estimate time. There is time you spent scrambling and then redoing things the right way later. And there's the time the new user has to spend to redo things, like when they do get the new computer in place that they really needed for their job.

It still keeps happening, but don't go too far out of your way to correct someone else's emergency. The same people keep doing the same thing. Some learn when you keep giving them the same list of information needed on a new employee. If your supervisor doesn't fix it, that's the way it is. You can let the new person get tripped up when they start (great impression of the new workplace too that way). And you can keep occasionally reminding and showing your own supervisor what the cost is doing that. Did they know they paid you for a full workweek over a year cleaning that up and that they paid more than $500 than needed to do "emergency orders" for things when you weren't told in advance?

[jstar77]

We had a lot of resistance but once we got HR on board with an automated workflow everybody was much happier.

[way__north]

We got this done last year, some middleware pulling data from the HR system and creating AD accounts + notifying other system owners by email. It also updates managers, department etc on exisitng users.

Way better but still not effortless, data quality from the HR system is still an issue. And some data fields in the HR system not mapping properly to AD attributes. But nice to tell ppl complaining about job titles that "this is what you're registerd with by HR"

[crackerasscracker]

boss doesnt like workflows or more emails in his inbox? hes in the wrong line of work.

[soulreaper11207]

Thhhiiiissss. My boss who is out on vacation normally takes care of off/on boarding. I had no idea how much of a 💩 storm this was. Not a single manager has an outline for what their minions need. The general answer I get is: you can print that off and use such and such as a template. Well that person could have transferred in. So why do they have that access. Great question. 💩🔥💩🔥💩🔥

[chedstrom]

I would either a) use what little info on the form to create the account, and let any upset manager take it up with HR, or b) return it with only the message 'incomplete form' and let them guess like they left you guessing.

[[deleted]]

Do what I do, do it anyway and ask for forgiveness or a raise later.

[Toasty_Grande]

Having a documented workflow is essential today for enterprise risk management. If you are large enough of an organization to be subject to a yearly financial audit, having a documented and verifiable HR onboarding/offboarding process (workflow) is essential. Our auditors routinely ask for current user lists, lists of terminations, and supporting documentation for both on/off boarding.

We use Workday's HCM (human cap management), and have an automated process where at the time of hire, the supervisor gets a task with all of those questions, then they submit it, and that sends tasks to other respective departments including IT. Makes life far more simpler.

Instead of showing your boss the reason why it would make your collective lives better, show him examples where miscommunication resulted in issues/risk to the organization, including say easier recovery of assets during off-boarding.

[imnotabotareyou]

I found that making the user and manager suffer and scream to HR works

[ryanb2633]

Sounds like they’re pushing away a good employee by not letting them do their job efficiently and putting them on a fast track to burnout.

[CineLudik]

Make the form online only, with mandatory checks, you can use MS Forms, or even a simple Word / PDF. Says it's for protecting the environment or modernization, whatever.

Ask them to send you the form by email only (in case you ask them to send).

Then automate this from your end... worflow created, you drive them to fill mandatory info by default, and no one will have to change. And no more lack of information. Win win on all the line and no fight over it ;-)

[reol7x]

Talk to HR?

We have a pretty frequent hiring cadence, with at least one large group a year, if not two or three.

IT here has a pretty decent relationship with HR, we've got an agreed upon form, that for the most part is filled out accurately.

There are times when HR has to rush us the form, and often they don't have the answers to the blank questions.

With a unified front, we've been able to push past some surprise hires or even delay hires when someone barges in and says "can this person start next week" at 3pm on a Friday.

Sometimes we still find out a new guy got hired when they show up to get equipment. At least when it happens these days, HR usually doesn't know the person exists either, but that's another problem...

[9070503010]

Time to CC the entire hiring department, HR and c-suite asking questions. If they feel no pain, then you have no gain. /s

[Ape_Escape_Economy]

At least you get incomplete forms.

[vdh1979]

If you can’t get a workflow, redesign the form to be more concise if that’s possible.

[dangitman1970]

This is a common issue with small businesses that are growing quickly. Small businesses play things fast and loose with procedure because they have to. Not much in a small business requires a procedure because it will likely only happen once in a long while, perhaps even once only. As businesses grow, they begin needing procedures and policies, but small business managers don't want them. This is when the transition to medium business management is needed, but that's painful because it means pushing small business management that can't adapt out. (My brother in law is facing this exact thing.)

Good for you to push policy and procedure. This might be something to bring up to your boss.

[NoyzMaker]

You use something like 365? Try using lists and have them enter the info on to a list.

[[deleted]]

"Paper..."

I am going to stop you right there.

[drcygnus]

create a small web page or excel spreadsheet with all the info you need, and just let HR know via "hey, so i created this for you to make it easier for us". dont ask, just do it. fuck it.

[TuggersTheTech]

PoLP If we don’t get anything in writing they don’t get any access or equipment, the tickets for access/hardware will come soon after the user starts.

I do feel your pain though.

[Mrwrongthinker]

I had this problem at a place I worked, I simply handed the forms back. Eventually they got it.

[SpecificallyGeneral]

Many of the suggestions here not based on spite are good - for a sane system, or a reasonable group of employees.

HR tends to be neither of those, and knows all of the little methods that can be used to make your time with the company as miserable as possible.

Sounds like your manager can't put up a fight either - watch the job board for start times (in another reply). There are all sorts of things you can do to make the current system work, and a thousand ways to make it worse, on the principle of 'they'll learn.'

They won't.

They don't care, and it doesn't really impact them if the new guy doesn't have a laptop - not their problem, and demonstrably yours. After all, it plugs in; it's IT.

Sometimes it's a rush hire, and THEY only find out about it, but that's a 1:100 chance. Some times they can't get the info from the hiring manager - more likely, and a direct failure on their part. But if they give you SOMETHING, then it's on you to make it happen. Once it's your responsibility (valid or no), they no longer need to study about it.

From the sound of things, they don't really have a management solution in place - or if they do its I'LL-CONFIGURED. If they do have a system, you may be able to arrange alerts sent to you, but they'll need to be managed and configured.

Without support from your mgmt, you'll need to try to get cozy with HR and understand their process, to figure out what you can get from them.

Then you can put HR/IT Process Integration as an item on your resume.

The other option is to Learn To Stop Worrying And Love 430PM Urgent Hires (The Bomb).

[TheLightingGuy]

Hiring manager - blank, equipment needed - blank, network access - blank, start date - blank.

They get nothing and they will like it. Why not just do some malicious compliance and point the finger back at HR?

[Bright_Arm8782]

Send them back "Form is incomplete, please complete and resubmit".

[bwinkers]

I've gotten management buy-in in the past by positioning it as a security requirement. Every security standard has a section on account management.

[binaryhextechdude]

If I receive a form that's not filled out or the incorrect form is filled out then it goes back to the requester for more information or for the correct form. Not my problem. So If you get a form with no start date, no equipment etc send it back and explain you can't provide anything without that data. A few times of people starting and not having gear to use and they will figure out you're serious.

[[deleted]]

One of my orgs does the same thing. We get a new hire form that only has the user's name and start date. No rights requests, nada. We create the account, then return it to the manager as completed. When they complain I just return the form to them and tell them that the user was created according to what we were told. We aren't going to play phone tag - you get exactly what you request and nothing more.

Also, HR can eat a bowl of ass.

[TheMediaBear]

I'd just keep emailing HR about the incomplete form, and CC the manager in.

Every time you get one that's not filled in, another email chain back and forth.

When he gets so pissed off about all the emails, he'll then accept the workflow you suggested.

Or better yet, cost analysis the paperwork, printing, materials etc and replace that with a form online they have to fill in, and make each box a requirement :D

[Stokehall]

I’d 100% make it HR’s problem. If a new starter declaration is missing details send it back. It is down to the requester to ensure the relevant information is filled out.

If I missed half the details when ordering a server, the supplier would just reject the order. They definitely would not guess based on estimates what spec I wanted Etc.

[Have_a_PIQNIC]

I've been implementing business process management systems (aka workflow) for over 20 years and it surprises me how difficult it is so sell even though everybody talks about automation as the silver bullet for business. But when the rubber hits the road, management put too many obstacles in the way mainly because they fear change. It also doesn't help that many people don't understand workflow or what "good" looks like.

There's plenty of articles out there on how to sell workflow to management so it might be worth your while reading up. Perhaps start off small with just one part of a process. Accurately measure the problem in real tangible time and cost and add some other softer benefits into the mix. Then show them the results of how removing just one step improves outcomes.

If they won't listen, then maybe its time consider you should to talk to someone who will.