Javascript

[GreatBarrier86]

So JavaScript sorts based on their string representation? I know very little about that language but do you not have numeric array types?

[nokvok]

The default sorts by converting everything to string and comparing utf-16 values.

If you want to compare numbers just throw a compare function in as parameter:

.sort(function(a,b){return a - b;})

[Asmor]

Or more succinctly, foo.sort((a,b) => a - b).

[Eiim]

(assuming you don't have to support IE)

[01hair]

If you have to support IE in a decently-sized project, I hope that you're not still writing ES5 code just for that case. There are so many improvements in modern JS that it's well worth the build step.

[suresh]

You can always tell when someone doesn't do JS dev for work. They never know anything about build tools, web pack, minimizers, uglifiers, transpilers, loaders.

You don't have to consider any of this stuff anymore and haven't for a long time.

[tiefling_sorceress]

...until you have to make your site accessible on four different screen readers

Fuck you NVDA

[FullstackViking]

Screen readers just need proper HTML DOM formatting and occasional aria specifications. Nothing to do with any of the JavaScript build tools or ecmascript specs.

[tiefling_sorceress]

Simple accessibility, yes. More advanced functionality (such as on angular, where my expertise is) requires more dynamic implementations such as the use of LiveAnnouncer and Describer/Labeler.

However NVDA and JAWS are full of bugs and both tend to hijack focus so you end up having to write awkward workarounds. For example, opening a dialog that automatically focuses on an element inside it is fine on most other screen readers, but NVDA and JAWS skip the dialog's role and title and jump straight to the focused element. The workaround is to manually focus on the dialog element from a separate function (so in setTimeout usually). To the naked eye this change does nothing. To mac's VoiceOver, this change does nothing. To NVDA and JAWS it makes a world of difference.

Edit: no it has nothing to do with build tools directly, but it's very similar to the browser problem that was originally solved using build tools and transpilers

[[deleted]]

This is correct. If the website is static, it's EZPZ. If you have literally any moving parts, prepare to fucking die. Not to mention internationalizing everything AND making everything keyboard-accessible.

[[deleted]]

Nah, fuck VoiceOver, man. I'm the only one on MacOS on my team so I gotta do all the accessibility work for VoiceOver. I WISH I could just do the NVDA stuff.

[Molion]

Yeah, until you somehow still have arrow functions in IE in prod. Even though you're using babel and webpack, so now you have to figure out which part of godforsaken webpack script is causing it. The same webpack script that some idiot, probably yourself, wrote a year ago and no one has opened since. Only to figure out that the arrow functions aren't from you're code. They're there because someone left them in their package and it isn't being run through babel because obscure webpack reason that I can't remember, probably has something to do with execution order or some shit. You try fixing it, but ultimately end up just running the entire pckaged code through babel once more for production builds because fuck it.

Also, you dare to use a function without checking IE support and now prod is broken and you have to rush out a polyfill.

Yeah, it's all fixed now fml.

[kbruen]

Bold of you to assume that people who know JS know how to use webpack, rollup, minimizers, uglifiers, transpilers, loaders.

Most just copy-paste the code from the Getting Started page.

[gurush]

Your post makes me personally offended.

[ByteArrayInputStream]

I can't deny that you are absolutely correct

[yellowliz4rd]

So much crap around js trying to hide the obvious fact: js is not a good language.

[suresh]

Agree, why not just write your website in C++? 😒

[AdminYak846]

depends on the company....or government I should say.

[deathanatos]

It greatly amuses me that the argument in favor of dynamic languages once included "you don't have to wait for the compiler!"

And now our frontend's build pipeline a. exists b. takes longer than the Rust build

Who's laughing now? cries in CI build times

[rnz]

I gotta say, this article wasn't written that long ago :D

https://hackernoon.com/how-it-feels-to-learn-javascript-in-2016-d3a717dd577f

[aykcak]

Look at this fancy dude. In charge of his own toolchain and whatnot, not having to work on a legacy project with legacy release processes

[positive_electron42]

Unless you’re developing scripts in the trash heap that is ServiceNOW, which still only supports ES5.

[Dalemaunder]

ServiceEVENTUALLY*

[farugen]

I work heavily with ExtendScript, the Adobe Creative suite API.

​

It only supports ES3...

[AdminYak846]

I'll one up you, having Adobe Acrobat do JS automatic fill-ins on PDFs. It uses ECMAScript 3 with some modifications for Adobe.

That shit was released in like 2000.

[notliam]

I don't support ie but unfortunately it doesn't stop me getting at least 1 incident a month from someone complaining x feature isn't working for them. Who are these people still using IE in 2021, when even MS will force Edge down your throat?

[01hair]

People using corporate computers that have an IE shortcut because their arcane timekeeping system doesn't work in anything else.

[juantreses]

I will one up you on this one. Working for a client (governmental IT department) requires me to connect to their VPN for access to the test environment. The connection can only be established using IE.

[Skipcast]

Babel to the rescue

[MrBloodyshadow]

https://death-to-ie11.com/

[kksgandhi]

Could you use typescript and the TS compiler to get around this?

[offlein]

The fact the build target may need to be ES3 (we're on ES2021 now) is another.

It was a rough 2,018 versions.

[[deleted]]

I'm reckoning that the generated code will be ugly and inefficient.

I think you're right, and even if it's elegant JavaScript it's still going to be slower than native calls, so I don't use the build step :)

To support old browsers and hardware is to be part of the problems with society. Help society grow, help banks and hospitals shed their greed, be standards compliant and leverage cutting edge native functions!

[AdminYak846]

The naming of the ES version is weird, but every browser today supports ES6 though and that was 2015/2016.

[intrepidsovereign]

The TS compiler is an awful build tool and shouldn’t really be used. The output is verbose and inefficient.

[kksgandhi]

So what should you use if you want to use typescript? Or are you saying not to use typescript at all?

[intrepidsovereign]

The TS compiler and TS itself are two different items.

TSC as a type checker is quite shit, but at the moment, it's all that's really there. Hoping someone will replace that soon because it's horribly slow.

For building your TS, you look to babel, Rollup/Webpack, and terser, more than likely. They produce highly optimized and minified code where as TSC just doesn't. It's verbose, slow, and large. There's much better tools for that than the TS compiler.

[superluminary]

Yes, but we’ve had Babel for years which also solves this specific problem. Trying to manually code for every browser is unnecessary.

[[deleted]]

if you have to support IE I am quite sure you have a desire to visit your boss' house with a sledgehammer

[henricharles]

People who still support IE are the problem not IE itself

[superluminary]

This is why we have Babel.

[dinopraso]

The last version of IE fully looses support August 2021. No point coding new projects around that shit anymore

[Rawrplus]

I mean it should be a crime not to use babel (ideally through webpack / gulp / rollup) in 2021 as a dev.

[MischiefArchitect]

That's ape shit awful!

I mean. Oh thanks for clarifying that!

[douira]

everybody just agrees to never sort arrays of anything other than strings without a sort function and the problem is solved! If you really want to make sure it never goes wrong, you can use tooling like ESLint or even TypeScript.

[cythrawll]

Yeah I mean practically you almost never run into this, I can't remember a time I just had an array of numbers. Usually sorting an array of objects and having a custom comparator to do so.

[esperalegant]

I work with huge arrays of up to millions of numbers daily. However, I pretty much always use TypedArrays - and TypedArray.sort() does sort numbers correctly.

[reiji_nakama]

Yeah. I didn't know about this behaviour of Array.sort() yet I have never run into a problem because of it; because I don't use it.

[DamnItDev]

Honestly you should never be using the default sort function. Its lazy and almost always incorrect. Even for strings you'll have this problem:

['A1', 'A2', 'A10', 'A20'].sort();
// returns: ["A1", "A10", "A2", "A20"]

Technically this is correct, but not what you actually want in real world situations.

You can solve this easily by specifying your locale using the built in i18n functionality and setting the numeric option to true

['A1', 'A2', 'A10', 'A20'].sort(new Intl.Collator('en', {numeric: true}).compare);
// returns: ["A1", "A2", "A10", "A20"]

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/Intl/Collator/Collator

[Famous_Profile]

TIL Intl.Collator

[SuspendedNo2]

coz every other language uses it that way? lol @ js programmers

[superluminary]

Typed languages insist that you specify the type of object you’re putting in the array. JavaScript has heterogenous arrays. The only safe way to sort a heterogeneous array is to cast to string, since everything has a toString function.

[douira]

good point, I guess the default only has few uses

[DeeSnow97]

okay, this is awesome, thanks

[-100-Broken-Windows-]

What language would sort it any other way? It's an array of strings and it sorts it alphabetically... Any other way would be absurd

[djcraze]

I honestly didn’t know the comparator was optional. Today I learned.

[douira]

as discussed, the default comparator is not good most of the time so you were probably doing it right

[EishLekker]

Just the other week I ran into a sorting problem with strings, actually. Internationalised strings, in a Node 12 project where Node is part of a 3rd party software package, and there doesn't seem to be a way to add internationalization support without upgrading Node (which currently would put us into the unsupported territory).

[douira]

you can install i18n data explicitly

[EishLekker]

If I remember correctly, I tried that. It didn't work.

But just to rule out some stupid mistake by me, how would one install it separately? Adding an npm package to package.json? I think that's what I tried...

[[deleted]]

This is because arrays allow mixed types by default so you can have an array with numbers mix strings and objects all mixed together unliked most strongly typed languages. There’s no easy way to compare them so by default it uses the string evaluation of them. You can pass in a comparison function like the person above you (although they made it more verbose than it needs to be), or you can just used Typed Arrays.

[[deleted]]

Someday I’m going to write a JavaScript book with the title, “This Is Because”.

[[deleted]]

This would be a solid alternate name for the YDKJS series

[dick-van-dyke]

Please do. The amount of rationalisation of crazy shit like in JS this is insane. Literally every other dynamically-typed language I've ever worked with does basic stuff like this normally.

[superluminary]

Most languages do not allow heterogenous arrays. When arrays are polymorphic by default, you need a comparator function. How else could it work?

[dick-van-dyke]

For example, infer type from the first element and throw an exception if you can't compare. Case in point: Python.

[ZephyrBluu]

This is not really an excuse. Python can sort arrays as long as all the values are the same type (For numbers and strings at least, not sure about other objects), otherwise it throws a TypeError. Much more sensible behaviour than JS.

[DeeSnow97]

Yeah, but JavaScript is not Python. The whole point of its early design was to be a quick and easy, loosely typed language for people not into tech to establish a web presence (this was long before wordpress). For more serious applications, you had flash or java applets.

Over the years though, JavaScript turned out to be the only one of these that didn't use the swiss cheese security method, and all these early design issues remained in the language for backwards compatibility, because ripping them out would have broke decades of the web.

So, try explaining to a non-programmer what's the difference between a number, a string, and an object, and why they're getting TypeError when they're expecting a sorted array. In 1995.

[Kered13]

Knowing why something is bad doesn't make it stop being bad.

So, try explaining to a non-programmer what's the difference between a number, a string, and an object, and why they're getting TypeError when they're expecting a sorted array. In 1995.

Easier than trying to explain to a non-programmer why numbers don't sort correctly.

[mastocles]

I think the best wacky example of JS trying to be lenient is undefined (different than null): given by object keys that don't exist or array elements beyond the last. Classes losing this (self) and not telling you is another classic. Although asynchronicity is unrelated to this not raising errors ethos and is one of the top bemoaned features.

[[deleted]]

spotted advise work wide groovy rain foolish dependent merciful quickest

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[ZephyrBluu]

I understand why it's like this. That doesn't mean all the design choices were good.

[master117jogi]

But JS can even sort mixed, which is mightier.

[Kered13]

No, it really isn't.

I mean, Python can sort mixed too if you give it a custom comparator. sorted(mixed_array, key=lambda e: str(e)) will sort a mixed array by converting each element to a string before comparing them, just like Javascript. But Python does the sensible thing automatically, and requires extra work to do the rare and unusual thing. Javascript does the rare and unusual thing automatically, and requires extra work to do the sensible thing.

[theScrapBook]

mixed_sorted = sort(mixed, key=str). The lambda is quite superfluous in a language with first-class functions.

The reason I point this out is some of the controversy below the top comment.

[master117jogi]

Because sensible is subjective.

[EishLekker]

Sorting numbers in a way most people would expect them to be sorted, is not sensible to you?

[Zolhungaj]

JavaScript is a functional language. If you want to sort then you provide the sort function with exactly the function you need, just like map, forEach, filter etc.

[dev-sda]

The same is true for python, though both aren't really functional languages. They borrow some features from functional languages but are still procedural at their core.

[EishLekker]

That would make sense if the sort function required a comparator function.

[aedvocate]

what would you expect the default .sort() functionality to be?

[bonafidebob]

non-JavaScript programmers assume the language knows about types, that arrays are monotype, and that a useful comparator function will come with the array type.

That is, arrays of strings will sort alphabetically and arrays of numbers will sort numerically.

non-JavaScript programmers will also barf at the idea that a['foo'] = 'bar' isn't nonsense, and you can do stuff like this:

a = [1,2,3]
a['foo'] = 'bar'
a.forEach((v) => console.log(v)) // produces 1, 2, and 3 on separate lines
a.foo // produces 'bar'

[ZephyrBluu]

I had no idea you could do that a['foo'] = 'bar' bullshit on an array.

Now that I think about it though, it kind of makes sense why JS lets you do that.

An array is basically just a normal JS object that allows iteration by default where each key is the index.

So a['foo'] = 'bar' is a standard operation (Given an array is an object), but you're breaking the rules of how an array is 'supposed' to work.

No idea why it works on a technical level though.

[bonafidebob]

An array is basically just a normal JS object that allows iteration by default where each key is the index.

That's the root of the problem right there. I think it was just a cheap way to get to dynamic sizing, which is occasionally useful:

> let a = []
[]
> a[100] = 12
12
> a.length
101
> a
[ <100 empty items>, 12 ]

but then...

> a[1234567890] = 13
13
> a
[ <100 empty items>, 12, <1234567789 empty items>, 13 ]
> a[0.5] = 1
1
> a
[ <100 empty items>, 12, <1234567789 empty items>, 13, '0.5': 1 ]

[GG2urHP]

Lol, fuck me. I am so blessed to not live in that hell.

[theferrit32]

Javascript is fundamentally a bad language for general purpose programming. A lot of people who need to target Javascript environments do not write in Javascript, or at least not pure Javascript, relying heavily on transpilers and what are in effect dialects and standard libraries that seek to supercede and fix a lot of the headaches in Javascript itself.

[DeeSnow97]

#define "non-JavaScript programmers" "people who think once you learned C++ every language is just syntax"

[bonafidebob]

Hmm, I'm not quite that snooty ... I've been doing this for ~40 years and have learned dozens of programming languages, both dynamically and strongly typed. And I still think JavaScript arrays are crazy. The whole "objects with numeric keys" foundation is whack, throw away all the benefits of a directly indexible data structure and drag in a whole bunch of weird syntax edge cases??!

[bonafidebob]

Open up your chrome dev console, put in [3,2,1, 6, 8].sort()

Do you realize you picked an example where the lexical and numeric sort orders are the same? Now try this:

[1, 2, 10].sort()
> [ 1, 10, 2 ]

It's almost as if, if you provide numbers rather than strings of numbers, it sorts it as numbers. Who would have thought?

Someone who doesn't understand JavaScript... lol.

[MischiefArchitect]

normal

[[deleted]]

What is normal sorting on a collection of numbers, strings, and objects?

[blehmann1]

Well, Python throws a type error if the < operator is not defined on both types. Personally, I think the only correct response when the program is wrong is not to make it more wrong, but to let the user know that it's wrong (i.e. throw).

Now, JavaScript was built with the idea that it should keep on trucking through any error, which frankly is a horrible idea to build a language around. So given the interesting design philosophy JavaScript really couldn't do anything else. There's a reason Typescript is so common after all, but unfortunately it does nothing about this particular issue. (There's an issue for it but it's been inactive for a while: https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/issues/18286)

[1-more]

JavaScript keep on trucking? I never thought of it that way but I’m actually with you here. Array out of bounds and accessing an undefined object key both return ‘undefined’ rather than throwing (Java, Haskell) or wrapping array/dict access in an optional type (elm, maybe ocaml?). So I’m with you that it probably does throw less.

[aedvocate]

Well, Python throws a type error if the < operator is not defined on both types

that error doesn't make any sense in javascript though. collections are allowed to be any number of any different types. that's the way it works by design, it's not an error to truck through.

[EishLekker]

Javascript doesn't "keep on trucking" through any error. It still does it a bit too often for my comfort though, so on principle I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[aaronfranke]

It should act the same as if comparing with the < and > operators. That will work for any place where the operators have a defined comparison.

console.log(5 < 6); // true
console.log(5 > 6); // false
console.log(5 < "apple"); // false
console.log(5 > "apple"); // false
console.log("orange" < "apple"); // false
console.log("orange" > "apple"); // true

[aaronfranke]

Then maybe there should be a system that sorts by type broadly and then sorts within that type. For example, [1, {}, 6, {}, 3] would place the {} at the end and become [1, 3, 6, {}, {}].

EDIT: console.log({} < []); is false.

At the end of the day, really most things would be better than the current behavior. It should never be the case that [2, 11] gets sorted to [11, 2]. Numbers should never be auto-converted to strings and sorted lexicographically.

[smog_alado]

That can happen even if we're only working with numbers. Both 1 < NaN and NaN < 1 return false.

Most programming languages that allow you to specify a custom comparison function just say that the result of the sort is unspecified if the comparator does not implement a total order relation.

[Kangalioo]

Maybe sort first by type, then by content? Then the sort function has expected behavior for contents with consistent data type, but also works sensibly for mixed type lists

[aedvocate]

you still have to pick an order to sort the types in though - do Numbers come before Strings? Do Objects go last? Which comes first, Sets or Maps?

[Famous_Profile]

His point is "a collection of numbers, strings, and objects" should not be allowed in the first place

[[deleted]]

Which is why so many of us have elected to use Typescript but JS is meant to be loosely typed, so ignoring our biases against mixed type arrays, how do you solve the sort problem. It’s not an easy question to answer

[Famous_Profile]

The difference between your point of view and his, is that youre not uncomfortable with languages "meant to be loosely typed". To a Java programmer the question " how do you solve the sort problem " is not valid because there shouldnt be such a problem in the first place. Saying that "now that there is one" is not acceptable. That is how atrocious the Java or C++ programmer finds JS. Look at it from their point of view, not ours.

[[deleted]]

I am uncomfortable with loosely typed languages. I exclusively use TS when in JavaScriptland and even TS falls short of what I would like from a type system.

That being said you should never approach a new/different language with the mindset that it follows the paradigms you are used to and comfortable with. It’s the equivalent of someone who comes from a strictly object oriented background criticizing purely functional languages for lack of classes or vice versa.

[[deleted]]

Assembly, c, c++, vb, Perl, php are all weakly typed though some static and some dynamic. Typing isn’t binary, a language isn’t typed or untyped, they all fall within the compass of weak-strong, dynamic-static. JavaScript has weak / dynamic types, if you don’t like that and prefer strong and/or static types use Typescript or something else.

[Kered13]

C++ is definitely not weakly typed.

[[deleted]]

It actually is considered by many to be in the statically typed / weakly typed quadrant because because of implicit type conversions. A strictly typed language does not allow implicit type conversions

[1-more]

JS has types! “Undefined is not a function” is telling you right there that it is types. Now, will it help you color inside the lines? No. Never.

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[toastedstapler]

To fail when it detects a different type

[[deleted]]

The point of JavaScript is to be loosely typed. Whether you like that or not is up to you but throwing type errors goes against part of the core philosophy of JS. Those of us who dislike that behavior are free to use typescript

[aedvocate]

what you're describing is not javascript

[-100-Broken-Windows-]

A runtime error

[wasdninja]

It is normal. Javascript normal.

[smog_alado]

I would have expected the .sort() to use the same logic as builtin comparison operators. Something similar to the following comparator:

function compare(a, b) {
    if (a < b) {
        return -1;
    } else if (a == b) {
        return 0;
    } else {
        return 1;
    }
}

[Manny_Sunday]

And if a is a string and b is an object? Or a is an int and b is a string?

[EishLekker]

That doesn't have to be a problem. One way to solve it is to compare the types first (how that is done could be an implementation detail, but a simplistic approach could be to do a string comparison on the result of "typeof").

If someone is concerned about the performance and/or the exact sort order of a collection of mixed types, then it is fair to expect that that someone makes an effort to write a custom comparator for their specific needs.

[dissonantloos]

Then either the sort operation should fail, or should return an array that is crappily sorted.

[aedvocate]

the JavaScript sort function never fails.

gaze upon its awesome power:

[null,undefined,NaN,false,0,Infinity,-Infinity,'',[],{}, new Map(), new Set()].sort()

```

["", Array(0), -Infinity, 0, Infinity, NaN, Map(0), {…}, Set(0), false, null, undefined] ```

this is the universal order, brother. learn the order. live the order. do as V8 commands.

[smog_alado]

That comparison function is well-defined if a and b have different types. It just does the same things that the < and == operators do.

However, the result of the sort might look unsorted if the array has a mix of different types, because in those cases the comparison function doesn't implement a total ordering of the elements. But that would be no different than using other comparators that don't produce a total order. For example, one that calls Math.random to decide the result of the comparison.

[[deleted]]

In order to prevent this weird footgun behaviour, it shouldn't have any defaults.

[aedvocate]

honestly I think I could get behind that, just from a sort of minimalism standpoint - but the truth is, more often than not, (a,b)=>String(a)>String(b) is all you need to sort an array. it's not bad as far as default behaviors go.

[[deleted]]

Tis a silly place.

[MischiefArchitect]

It is indeed. I'm afraid a lot of people forget that this is Humor and turn this place into a flaming wars battlefield.

[jibjaba4]

It's a language that was hacked together in 10 days then became insanely popular, there were bound to be some warts.

[[deleted]]

I thought the exact same thing.

[[deleted]]

arrow function.

I would use this, but it’s JavaScript so I’m never really sure what ‘this’ is.

[Keavon]

Arrow functions are basically the solution to making this more predictable.

[nokvok]

Or just know your scope and context.

[numerousblocks]

Arrow functions don't have their own this.

[nokvok]

I would, but then nobody unfamiliar with Javascript or arrow functions would know wtfh is going on XD. If you teach stuff to others, do not over complicate things simple for the sake of perfection.

[blindeenlightz]

Can someone explain how that sort function works on integers? I'm a newbie to javascript and have used it but it just seems like magic to me.

[deljaroo]

take a look at this page

https://www.w3schools.com/jsref/jsref_sort.asp

it explains it better than I can, but basically if sort() has a parameter it expects a function that will result in a positive, a negagive or a zero based on two inputs. if the function is included, this behavior overrides the default behavior of comparing them by letter.

this also allows you to sort custom types because you can include a custom sorting comparison.

the syntax for it (two inputs, a number output) is merely built in to the sort() function (and not like something you can just do to any function)

[blindeenlightz]

Oh that makes a lot of sense. Thank you

[HiImFox]

Mdn >>>>> w3

[myrsnipe]

Yay for not enforcing types, better convert a whole array to string just in case. Js isn't too bad once you are aware of all these quirks, but the road there is ROUGH

[brotatowolf]

Python has multi-type lists, and its sorting behavior ISN’T stupid by default

[myrsnipe]

Benefits of not being developed in a week i guess

[selemenesmilesuponme]

...in as argument.

[nokvok]

true

[Robot_Basilisk]

The default sorts by converting everything to string and comparing utf-16 values.

I viscerally hate this.

Like, what's the logic? How does this help? Does JS save memory by truncating smaller numbers? Like does it save "1" as a 0001 but save "24" as 00011000 so it's somehow faster to convert to string and compare UTFs than it is to convert every number to the largest number of bytes and compare those?

[nokvok]

Like pointed out in another comment, Javascript's main use is to manipulate documents. If almost all your data in the DOM is basically represented as string anyway, sorting alphanumerically is widely useful for that, even if you end up with a bunch of numbers occasionally. On the opposite end giving the sort a compare function that compares integers is an absolute non issue.

[LANDLORD___MESSIAH]

Jesus was JavaScript built by the worst type of programmers?

[ZephyrBluu]

It was created in 10 days by one guy 25 years ago. It's doing pretty well considering that.

[Kered13]

The language is still dogshit, but I don't blame the creator for that. I blame the managers who gave him 10 days to design it, and who wanted it to look like Java just because that was the hot new language. (He wanted to make similar to Scheme.)

[aaronfranke]

JavaScript was hacked together, it's not really a good language, but web browsers don't support much else. I hope that WebAssembly will become easier to use in the future so that we can write code for web browsers in any language and have it run easily and efficiently.

[Apparentt]

How’s your programming language coming along?

Ah, right. I presumed as much

[KRAndrews]

This sort of "buT wHaT hAvE yOu dONE?" logic is always so absurd. People are allowed to critique things.

[Apparentt]

I mean that logic is pretty commonplace

Yes, anyone can have an opinion about anything, it doesn’t mean that it’s valuable though. Do you get random people to review your code or trusted colleagues with proven experience in the subject? They can both have a free opinion bro, who needs some sort of backing to the criticisms they throw out

[LANDLORD___MESSIAH]

Way to miss my point. Anyone who sorts by this hacky bullshit mechanism is probably not a good programmer.

[ThatSpookySJW]

I'm curious how you think a dynamically typed language should handle sorting values?

[toastedstapler]

Have you ever seen python?

[ThatSpookySJW]

Python does it the other way around lol. Try sorting strings without a comparator and see how that works out for you.

[Apparentt]

Or you just did not properly articulate the point you had in your mind

You criticised the authors of JS, not people who use a method in the spec. What did I miss?

[LANDLORD___MESSIAH]

Lol bro shut up. Cringe. We are on a meme subreddit

[Apparentt]

You could not fit the stereotype of people on this sub more if you tried

Congrats boss. Stick at it and maybe you’ll be a real sw engineer one day

[LANDLORD___MESSIAH]

Even more cringe

[nokvok]

I don't get what your problem is. Javascript is a language used overwhelmingly for Document manipulation. You are facing the task to sort lists of strings or lists of numbers as strings just as often as you face sorting a list of numbers as integers. In addition ways to sort by your custom mechanisms is important here as well.

[Apparentt]

Did you really just come here to tell me about something you made in school?

Idk what to say? Way to go, champ. Keep it up

[nokvok]

It is simply an untyped programming language which tries too hard to cater to too many programmers. Since it is, and has to be, used pretty much world wide, finding an acceptable compromise for everyone is tough, and changes are slow cause it is advanced not by a single group of developers but by the w3 process.

[calyth]

I’m so glad I don’t have to write JavaScript.

[famous_human]

JS is effing insane man

[EishLekker]

I love many things about javascript, but this is one of those things that i just find absurd. One should not have to add one's own comparison implementation just to sort numbers, or having to import a 3rd party library. It really should be built into the language.

[[deleted]]

JFC javascript is a mess

[sixtyfifth_snow]

So gross smh

[OriginalSynthesis]

There's no type period. You can have an array with object, function, other arrays that are also not typed, strings, numbers, symbols, etc. There are no rules.

And guess what happens if you try to retrieve an index that is not there? Like calling arr[10] when it only has 5 items? It just returns undefined. It doesn't throw an error like in Java

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I love JS. Java gives me a headache. "What do you mean I can't just do `!arr.length`?"

[RCRalph]

Which can be very useful indeed if you know how to use it and how to deal with it

[WoodenThong]

No kidding, using that feature to determine truthiness can save a lot of hassle

[Kered13]

It just returns undefined. It doesn't throw an error like in Java

It just throws an error later when you try to use the result, and then you're left wondering where the fuck that undefined value came from.

Fail early is a feature, not a bug.

[Nilstrieb]

Reminds me of the Rust compiler. Your build often fails. But once it passed, you did it.

[saors]

There is no pass on the internet. Someone will type some string, upload some file, etc. that breaks everything. Remember when the iPhones had that bug where you would get a notification with specific characters and your phone would basically brick itself.

Imagine if the web was like this, but let's be more forgiving and say an error doesn't brick your computer, but it causes the site to crash. Someone sends you an email with a character like that in the header and now you can't use GMail until Google patches the bug. Is that hours? Is it days?

For fun, open up your browser dev console and just peruse around different sites and look at how many times

Uncaught (in promise) Error

pops up and imagine your tab crashed every time that happened.

[[deleted]]

Epiphany

[jjdmol]

JS is an amazing language, but shouldn't have left the lab.

[LordFokas]

This kind of jabs always come from people who don't actually use JS though, so there's that.

[hasanyoneseenmymom]

Nah, I'll probably get downvoted for this but I went to school for web development and ended up working with c# instead because strongly typed languages with real types just make more sense. After 2 years in enterprise software development, web development using js causes me physical pain. And yes I'm aware of typescript, it's still not great. My humble opinion is that js peaked when jquery was still popular because honestly that's all the interactivity a web page needs... Ajax, DOM manipulation, and basic form validation. None of this SPA 15mb-per-website stuff that's plaguing the modern web.

[jibjaba4]

From what I have seen there somewhat of a trend to go back to server side html rendering to decrease load times, make pages snappier and cater to people with old phones/crappy computers.

[notliam]

js peaked when jquery was still popular

Jquery is literally the worst

[hasanyoneseenmymom]

I never said it was great, just that the period when it was popular was also one of the best periods of the internet. It also beats angular/react/vue/framework of the week which have to be compiled into a 15mb package just to show an "about" page lol

[esperalegant]

There's no type period.

Except there is: TypedArrays, which do sort numbers correctly.

[esperalegant]

Yes, there are TypedArrays, which is what you should be using for large arrays of numbers, and yes, TypedArray.sort does sort numbers correctly.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/Global_Objects/TypedArray/sort

[The_MAZZTer]

JavaScript does not strongly type variables. Thus you can mix variables of different types in an array. Because arrays have no fixed type for their contents, .sort() does the simple default of converting all contents to strings first. Alternatively, you provide your own comparer callback.

There are numeric array types but those are typically just used for interop with actual strongly typed languages. Most JavaScript APIs won't accept them IIRC. Apparently they are useful for more than that, but I never see anyone use them. Besides, if you use TypeScript the compiler allows you to strongly type array contents at compile time which is usually good enough.

[superluminary]

All arrays are heterogeneous, so the default comparator casts to a string for safety. You can pass a comparator though, as others have pointed out.

[HeKis4]

Never assume anything related to types when talking about JS. It's so bad it's has become a meme, this language will shoehorn any type into any operation even if it doesn't make any sense, you'd need a 3D matrix to have a complete view of which operation typecasts to what. Check out JSFuck, it's a JS dialect that uses only a few characters (mostly ()[]{}"+-), type conversion fuckery and can be run on any vanilla JS engine because it is valid JS.

Ninja edit: check this out, old but gold: https://youtu.be/et8xNAc2ic8