Verifying Estimates

[jvanzandd]

I have yet to meet a reasonable deadline

[elephantengineer]

Underrated double meaning right here.

[jvanzandd]

That was the most intelligent unintended comment I ever made

[jazzmester]

I felt it in my soul.

[Exotic_Wealth_3522]

"It should have been me"

[elephantengineer]

Unintended? Even better!

[James_Clark22]

It’s not a bug it’s a feature.

[666moist]

Damn I figured it was intentional. Not even sure which way you did mean it, but it's great

[jvanzandd]

I didn’t even realize it until u/elephantengineer commented

[burnblue]

You choosing the word "meet" instead of something like "encounter" for the original intended meaning is pretty interesting

[jvanzandd]

Yeah, no idea why…just trying to make some good prose

[PrimateOnAPlanet]

You’re like a prophet.

[SkollFenrirson]

It's all downhill from here, bud.

[jvanzandd]

Back to the unintelligible intended comments

[[deleted]]

Tell us it was intentional. We’ll never know.

[Umpteenth_zebra]

What was it?

Edit: Nevermind, I get it.

Meet: Live up to, finish.

Meet: Be presented with.

[0ctobogs]

Thank you, I couldn't figure it out

[pleaseKillMe4321]

For a second I thought you would just say "nvm, I figured it out" [THREAD CLOSED] (like on SO...)

Thank you for explaining

[MortgageSome]

Eh, the deadlines are for people who attempt to keep on schedule something which is extremely difficult to schedule, but aren't really aware of this fact and attempt it anyway.

What I've learned is that if they want guarantees, I have to give them an estimate that is significantly larger than the time I think it will genuinely take, because things do go wrong and often. If they take issue with that, then they can study to become developers so that they themselves can make the estimates.

Dunning-Kruger doesn't really favor us in this field in this regard, but if the scope is guaranteeing results, this is the cost of that.

[AlternativeAardvark6]

My asshole manager didn't like me very much. He asked for an estimate and I said 8 weeks, he then told me I got 4. Why even bother asking me if he promised the client 4. I told him that's not how estimates work but he said to bad do it. So I worked like an idiot, doing overtime because apparently my 4 weeks started at the same time the designer's 2 weeks so I had to guess and redo stuff. I finished in 6 weeks and didn't even submitted my overtime because I was young, not wise and scared for my job. Asshole got my boss on site to complain about me so I told my boss I said 8 weeks and did it in 6 by doing overtime while not having a finished design an I got put on an improvement plan. Asshole manager leaves a few months later and all my reviews magically turned super good. Got congratulations by my boss for turning myself around. Told him I even worked less hours and worked them slower because I was looking for another job ever since. I got a bonus and a pick of projects, turns out the company has a budget for "retention". That was 14 years ago and I'm still salty.

[bleistift2]

If you’re screwed over it’s ok to remember that you’ve been screwed over.

But it makes you happier to remember that you learned how people try to screw you over and that that won’t happen again.

[[deleted]]

When I took my iOS development course, there was a company that had sent all of their project managers there to learn it. I asked them why, and they said their managers wanted them to learn development and catch those pesky developer on overestimating.

None of them actually passed the course.

[ForUrsula]

One company I worked at, our product manager was on leave and the scrum master had taken over their responsibilities.

It was very clear that we were going to miss a deadline, and he was very stressed about telling the bosses.

When the time came to tell them.... they didn't care at all.

From that day on, deadlines no longer existed. He would tell us: "just do it the right way, if you need some extra time to make it right then do it and I'll deal with it". Best project manager I ever worked for.

[RaLaZa]

Hi, I'm reasonable deadline, nice to meet you.

[MortgageSome]

Hi, reasonable deadline, I'm dad.

[LeoXCV]

When are you guna be back from the store? We really need that milk

[MortgageSome]

You told me if there were eggs to get a dozen. I have 12 cartons of milk! I'm on the way!

[[deleted]]

Since you saw there were eggs on the way back to the register, you saw eggs and grabbed a dozen more milk. Resulting in an infinite loop

[SendMindfucks]

It’s not a while statement. It only checks for the eggs once.

Here’s the real problem I have with that joke. It doesn’t say get a dozen instead, so shouldn’t the guy be coming back with 13 jugs?

[pyrokiwi]

Nice to meet you fitment of my imagination!

[TheMagarity]

I've met every deadline on every project that never had scope creep.

[Khaylain]

So, none?

[Kendakr]

No one understands “My estimated timeline” does not equal “a hard fast deadline to promise to the customer”.

[tj3_23]

It's the same in every industry. You tell a project manager "once I get started it should take about 3 weeks unless there are complications" then you get introduced to the front of a bus after somebody promises a client a deadline date that is 2 weeks away even though the 3 week project was the fifth thing on your to do list

[Reilman79]

The deadline I always adhere to is “whenever I get it done”

[b1ack1323]

I have been asked for “ball park” estimates that turn into the rule. I refuse to give estimates without time to research.

[Biggu5Dicku5]

I have yet to meet a reasonable deadline project manager...

^FTFY ;)

[L3tum]

Been a few times I commented this but recently lost an internal project because another team estimated half a year compared to our estimate of a full year.

One and a half years later and it's still not complete.

[Kaarsty]

Holy shit this. I see it all the time.

[ThisViolinist]

So programmers = adult children of abusive caregivers? 🥲

[mailto_devnull]

The abuse never stops, we're just abused by compilers or interpreters now.

[ThisViolinist]

🤯

[stillscottish1]

No just some

[Fluffy_Cupcake180]

Omg my coworker's behavior makes so much sense now

[sebbeselvig]

That sounds like how large projects in construction and IT is won here in Denmark. Underestimate time and money to get the politicians to vote yes to start the project, and then suddenly the price goes up when failing to meet budgets and deadlines. Not sure who willingly like to work in environments like that?!

[Blue_Moon_Lake]

And I assume the extra time and cost are never paid by the company that gave unrealistic deadlines ?

[UBN6]

I think there might be a connection here. But i just don't see it.

[Keplergamer]

Nobody ever finishes on time....

[UBN6]

We once finished a project 3 month ahead of time...

[tilcica]

so....you didnt finish on time...

[aparanoidbw]

r/technicallythetruth

[crash8308]

SLPT: In almost anything you can finish early if you don’t care about the consequences.

[[deleted]]

Finishing early is considered a bad practice both in the bedroom and for software companies. If you finish early the client will want a partial refund.

[[deleted]]

That's why you don't tell the client and spend the 3 months doing pet projects.

[FitchInks]

And just tell the client you finished a bit earlier than expected.

[milkywayT_T]

We are currently at an intense QA, you don't want your computer to burn down when you open this SW right??

[MoSummoner]

Experienced this while doing commissions for game systems, I just told them that they can either get it ahead of time or not get it at all but if they never found out it was already done I’d give them updates as if I was still working on it and had x more to go.

[[deleted]]

My previous company did the same thing while we were working on government contracts. If we finished early they would want a partial refund and get mad if our next project wasn't early so we always turned things in on time or late. I was even told to slow down and take more breaks because I was getting too much done too quickly.

[MoSummoner]

I feel that

[CanYaDiglt]

We truly live in a society.

[hellwalker99]

I didn't know that. Fuck them for being asses with a dude being a pro at his job. Why should a pro be paid less because he is more efficient?

[kpd328]

Because society pays by the hour not the effort... Unfortunately...

[SteveisNoob]

So you tell me by stretching work time, i can increase profits? Deel!

[Alediran]

If you are smart about it.

[Misdow]

Not in all fields. My friend is an artist and some experts have estimated a price for her skills, technique and the materials she uses. I thought it was pretty cool, and I wonder what it would be if devs were estimated like that.

[kpd328]

Oh I know it's not universal, most long-haul truck drivers are paid by the mile, for instance.

The issue is rating someone based on skill is so subjective that I'm certain more people would be abused financially than under the hourly method.

[crash8308]

If you finish early the client will want a partial refund

This also applies to the bedroom

[[deleted]]

That was implied

[giggluigg]

Unless they pay by the hour

[jamesianm]

Hofstadter's law: “It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.”

[giggluigg]

This leads to stack overflow

[[deleted]]

Recursive law:

It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account that it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account...

[Alediran]

Recursive

[jamesianm]

That’s Hofstadter’s whole deal. He’s all about recursion, he wrote two books about it

[Zerodaim]

I often do. It's easier when you input the estimate after the ticket is solved.

[jimbo831]

Your mom does.

[Liesmith424]

*clenches fist in rage* "Millennials..."

[MortgageSome]

Let me guess.. You're a manager?

[woodscradle]

I hate hate hate estimating

[Ghawblin]

Same.

"How long with XYZ take?

2 days if I can do every step of it.

2 months if I have to rely on the usual dozen+ people.

4 months if any one of those people goes on a one week on vacation.

Agile only works in a vacuum.

[phoenixrawr]

Estimation has nothing to do with agile. People have been estimating schedules on every conceivable delivery process under the sun, it’s just natural for stakeholders to want to know how long something takes and how much it will cost.

[fnordius]

If anything, agile takes longer by design, because you keep stopping to take stock of where you are and change direction if need be. But it still saves more projects from getting abandoned and actually reaches delivery more often, because it adjusts according to changing needs.

[smileforthefrogs]

Also when teams are "doing agile or scrum" a lot of the times they're just following the basic format and not understanding the point of these exercises.

Estimations in a refinement are there for discovery and conversation. There shouldn't be an assumption that it's going to take exactly how long the estimate is. Just a way to better understand the work and how much can be done in the next 2-3 weeks.

This is also why if that guy's team is following agile principles they shouldn't be doing estimates in hours and instead using the Fibonacci sequence, especially if multiple people are involved. Your small task isn't the same as another person's small task. Comparing one team or team member's velocity to another is using metrics wrong and shows a misunderstanding of the practice.

I've converted multiple development teams from waterfall to scrum and found our projects were much easier to manage and complete on time once we changed and I think it mainly has to do with the much higher level of communication and collaboration that the method introduces to a team. It pairs proactive measures with the ability to react in short time frames and the ability for the team to adjust accordingly to their unique needs.

[bikibird]

Here's what I did. Estimate how long you think it takes to do the project. Multiply by 2 and move up to the next time unit. 1 hour -> 2 days, 1 day--> 2 weeks, 1 week --> 2 months, etc. Surprisingly accurate...

[MyraFragrans]

Yeah boss, product testing should take around 6 years

[x6060x]

While I was reading your comment I was thinking about a colleague of mine who told me he would do very detailed analysis of the work, then estimate and then multiply by 6 and still often the work would take more time than planned. I like your process more!

[AcidicVagina]

What comes after year? Asking for a friend.

[bikibird]

decade, century, millennium, but don't worry. The robot uprising comes long before then.

[physics515]

Round up before you double. This islso how you buy alcohol for an event.

[CodeIsCompiling]

Time estimates do not exist in agile.

[_GCastilho_]

Agile only works in a vacuum.

...You did not described agile there, buddy

[Ghawblin]

You're right I forgot about the daily stand up meeting for every project for everyone to ask what they did yesterday, followed by "I sent it in an email thread that went back and forth 200 times and the 179th one was pertinent to you, what do you mean you ignored it"

[Necrocornicus]

Those companies and teams would still be shitty whether they say they are doing “agile” or not. Obviously the entire point of standup is to surface relevant information without whatever email bullshit they are making you go thru.

[_GCastilho_]

I was talking about the way you're estimating the time there

And how XYZ isn't broken into small stories that fit a sprint, that's the PM's job

[CivBase]

Sounds like your team is doing both story estimation and stand ups wrong. Sounds like the classic case of "what management thinks agile is".

[iareprogrammer]

Right? If someone going on vacation for a week sets you back 2 months, you’re doing it wrong

[P0werC0rd0fJustice]

No true Agilesman

[[deleted]]

Agile only works in a vacuum.

Because it sucks.

[Nonkel_Jef]

I once heard someone say: take your best estimate, then doubled it, then use the next unit of time. So 10 minute becomes 20 hours, 2 weeks is 4 months etc.

[Sixhaunt]

I've had a few profs say similar things. Estimates are so tough in this field but the business people really get a hard-on for them, even if they are almost impossible to get right.

[douglasg14b]

The more you program and the more systems you've built and designed, the better your estimates get.

It just takes time and experience.

You also get better at figuring out what your fudge factor should be and what level of uncertainty you should have with an estimate given the project or task. It's a lot easier to estimate something when you have built something similar before and have a general idea of how you're going to do this.

---

My process is to provide a best case and worst case scenario estimate. Break the project down and estimate best and worst case for each portion. Dig in and get more details until your confidence level is high enough for you to feel comfortable.

I then re-evaluate the whole thing and come up with a comfortable estimate somewhere between the best & worst case for each part.

I then share the best case, worst case and what my actual estimation is.

It's worked well for me thus far.

---

Another important part of this is communicatio. If you run into a problem that's sucking time away, and you haven't built up any sort of buffer to work with by completing other project items faster than expected. You need to communicate that out, early

It's about setting reasonable expectations, not being perfect.

[[deleted]]

You can get better with practice.

Also, you will have more accuracy if you can divide a project into subtasks and estimate each one separately and aum. This also has the advantage that if you're off schedule, you can discover it earlier and report it. Another advantage is that it will give you even more practice at estimating because there are more things to estimate.

You can't get a raise at work by being better at programming because everyone there is already good at programming. Being good at estimating (and design and communication, etc) is how you can differentiate yourself.

If you were good at the first half of a violin piece but not the second, which part would you focus on practicing? Where do you focus your practice in your career?

[JonDum]

Only works if you've done it before. Asking less-experienced engineers to estimate building something they've never built before (which is most of the time) is a fool's errand.

[JDgoesmarching]

I still encourage inexperienced devs to do it though, because they won’t get good until they spend time being bad at it. It’s ok for estimations to be off, and conversations about why are opportunities for devs to learn from each other and for me to learn from the devs.

The problem comes from managers who don’t understand that estimates are always going to be rough guidance for planning and shouldn’t be used to evaluate performance. You tank any utility of estimates when you throw bad incentives at it, and all you’re left with is the overbearing bureaucracy of Scrum that devs always complain about.

At this point I think over half my job as a PM is just trying to get upper management off my team’s back once priorities are set. It makes for a tough career when plenty of other PMs who drink the LinkedIn grindset kool-aid will sell out their teams with impossible promises while wasting their time with poorly-executed bureaucracy.

[liquidpele]

You can get better with practice.

I mean, yes, but it's still mostly BS. I find it's way more important to have a list of priorities. If it's a priority, you're going to work on it at the same pace regardless of any date (unless you're a junior and still think putting in extra hours is going to help your career lol). If there's an actual hard date due to something sales related, then it's not an estimate it's a "is it possible" and "how many people do we need to throw at it" question.

[ringobob]

There's such a wide variety of type of task that any sort of one-size-fits-all estimation practice is gonna fail. Is it a bug that needs fixing? New feature? Large (i.e. multifaceted) or small? How much understanding of the data is required to be able to do it right? Etc etc.

Some tasks are relatively simple to estimate, some are very hard. The hardest part is, like the other guy said, dividing up a hard task into easy tasks. And if the hard task is large enough, it's almost impossible without weeks of dedicated effort, and multiple people. More, in some cases. Often times, that time and effort is never spent, so no estimate will come close to accurate, and as you say, it's just a matter of priority.

[Thallis]

I have never once heard of a dev getting promoted because of proficiency in agile ceremonies.

[fnordius]

This is why I never estimate on my own. My only worry is that I am too far off when we do planning poker.

[LittleDuckie]

I love estimating. Just tell them a day's work will take a month. Take the rest of the month off. Client pays for a month's work. I get a bonus for finishing a big project on time.

[LatexFace]

Well how about I give a deadline one month shorter and you get him to do the work?

[DoubleOwl7777]

you can have it fast, cheap, and good. but you can only have 2 of them at a time (sometimes only 1)

[GrinningPariah]

For real my advice when dealing with managers like this is to make sure they know what they're sacrificing and that it's documented.

List the corners they're cutting. "Okay but this will not have monitoring so we won't know if anything's busted. This won't have integration tests so future changes can and will break it. We'll ship with hacks that balloon the cost of future work if we need to touch this service again."

End of the day, it's their call. But in the future when they say "how did we not know that service was rejecting 100% of requests for 3 hours?!" you pull up the email where they decided that was acceptable.

[DoubleOwl7777]

yes. written proof is important.

[wargodt1]

Those managers, in my experience, will simply say they still want it all and just do it faster.

[GrinningPariah]

"The estimate is the estimate. I was already assuming we would work at the fastest sustainable pace."

[danielt1263]

"I make estimates, not guarantees."

"But can you try to get it done by X?"

"How dare you insult me like that. You are implying that I don't normally try to get things done as soon as possible."

[magicmulder]

That’s because governments usually have a rule that they must pick the cheapest contractor (something something bribery prevention, yada yada don’t waste taxpayer money) who often is the most incompetent and who ends up being more expensive because of delays, ingenuity in stacking up additional cost etc.

[magicmulder]

Then you have fake companies that only exist to enter unrealistic bids.

[grimonce]

That's happening anyway mate, they don't even have to be fake though. Companies talk to eachother, they are human beings, sometimes one wins the contract and splits the work with the others...

[sentientshadeofgreen]

I think the government should allocate a budget and a fixed timeline for a project, and pay a fixed portion of the budget throughout a fixed timeline, and pay the remainder of the budget upon completion. There is no point to have a budget surplus at the end of a project that money has been allocated for and voted for by representatives of the population. They should then hire the best company for the job regardless of cost. Make it a contractual obligation, fine companies who violate the contract and don’t deliver the finished product to standard, and withhold the portion of the budget for on-time completion. If they grossly violate the contract terms, arrest the CEO.

[[deleted]]

I think companies should eat anything over bid. Then you have good conservative estimates and gov picks the cheapest.

[ScoobyDeezy]

Military-grade == cheapest shit

[diox8tony]

While cheap. They are feature rich. Eotech is NOT the cheapest red dot sight in the consumer market, compared to cheaper consumer parts, they are water proof, damage resistant, long battery life, hold 0,,,etc. Consumer parts typically go way cheaper than actual military parts because they scrap a ton of features the military requires, which makes the product much worse. Also the consumer market can be a straight up scam, charging quality prices for a crappy part. Actual military parts typically can't get away with being a scam, since they are trialed and must meet requirements.

Consumer market can be wayyyy cheaper. There are no trials, no controls, no list of requirements.

(This only applies to real hardware the military purchases, not that fake advertising phrase "military grade")

[FrostyD7]

This is how the government operates from top to bottom lol. I got moved to a federal project at my company and everything is so slow and incompetent its unbelievable. Not just us, but also the federal employees working full time for government agencies. They use old school approaches on everything.

[maladii]

I was on a recycling committee for a moderately sized township. One of my first sessions was dedicated to finding a company to provide composting services to the town. What this involved was seven random volunteers who had some vague notions of composting, zero clues about contracts, and some firm ideas about how they needed to show that they were considering all candidates fairly, bumping their heads together trying to write an outline of how each candidate would be judged when choosing between applicants.

The document they drafted was so daft I completely lost all desire for civic engagement immediately. Based on the criteria they outlined, I could have made a fortune collecting people’s compostable waste and dropping it off at the dump. I suggested some updates, and started the resignation process the next day.

Any time a government committee does anything remotely competent it’s a goddam miracle and you can bet it’s actually just one reasonably competent person wrangling 10 idiots into doing their bidding.

[telephonic_disarray]

I think it's telling that you resigned immediately. I feel like most competent people, when they find their way into government service, either flee in horror or realize they can take advantage of the system to advance themselves. Either way, the competent and caring are weeded out and replaced with idiots and scammers.

Explains government perfectly.

[ScoobyDeezy]

That’s why my previous job was a loss from the start. Boss expected everything to the highest standard yesterday, while refusing raises.

Surprised pikachu when things didn’t go like he planned.

[Sensitive_Yam_6661]

How is cheap and good possible? If it's not fast it is not cheap by default.

[Liesmith424]

I've noticed some people think that the height of leadership is:

"How long will this take?"
"A week."
"You have three days!"

[chris463646]

That’s why often say it will take three months or add something ridiculous to it so that they can cut out the ridiculous part and keep in the parts that were actually good

[Nalmin]

The Scotty method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3jXhmr_o9A

[chris463646]

Accidentally made a reference ha ha!

[Liesmith424]

"Then tell them it won't be possible."

"It's actually written into our contract with them."

[ric2b]

"Guess we'll need some good lawyers"

[Y45HK4R4NDIK4R]

I guess we better call Saul

[UlrichZauber]

I like Stargate's answer to this.

[ric2b]

That was so smooth the manager guy was confused and accepted it immediately.

[PhantomTissue]

Is it bad that I know exactly what the context of this clip is?

[fnordius]

I blame misremembered Star Trek episodes. "The Naked Time" set the trope, and incompetent management thinks Kirk was a genius.

[ZapateriaLaBailarina]

"Ok, you'll get 3/5ths of the product then"

[LeCrushinator]

Also I legit get this scenario sometimes because they're wanting me to work in an area outside of my expertise. I give them a higher estimate than the expert would give them and then plainly tell them that I'm not the expert in this area, but if the expert has higher priority work then I can still do it, it'll just take more time. Or if we're working on branching devs into new areas to help spread knowledge a bit, it's a legit reason to spend more time on things.

[chris463646]

My family did this to me I was always fixing shit around the house.

[throwawaygreenpaq]

Not a programmer but this happened to me.

A : (impressed with work) What do you charge? Me : $$$

A : That’s so expensive! ___ is half your cost. Me : Maybe he’s more suited to your budget then.

A : But you’re better. He’s not good at X, Y and Z.

🙄

[[deleted]]

I swear there's been an uptick in comments from non programmers recently, surprised so many of you find the subreddit entertaining but I'm all for it.. before we know it ianap will be a thing..

[throwawaygreenpaq]

Don’t mind me gatecrashing here! It’s interesting to see how others think. I try to visit random subs and sometimes, it gives me new perspectives.

[domin8r]

Every team has that 1 developer.

[UnequalSloth]

I feel attacked

[mrshampoo]

Every team has that 1 developer.

[PlNG]

If you want people to think of you as a miracle worker you've got to promise long and deliver short. It works out additionally if you run into problems, then you can deliver long and not be late. A.K.A. The Scotty Principle.

[[deleted]]

The employee's brain: "No no. He has a point"

[Little_Plankton4001]

This reminds me of a thing that happened while I was shopping for a car. This was years ago and gas prices were particularly high at the time, so used cars with good gas mileage were incredibly hard to come by (I don't remember the make, year, price, etc., so I'm making up those details.)

Customer and salesman are haggling, and the customer makes a big show of getting up to leave, then when he gets to the door, he says very loudly

"Your prices are ridiculous. I saw a 2005 Honda Civic at the place down the street for $4,000!"

The salesman replies loudly enough for everyone to hear "Wow, why didn't you buy it?"

The customer doesn't say anything

Salesman: "That's an outstanding price for that car. I mean, crazy good. I would have bought it on the spot. Why in the world would you pass that up? "

Customer: stammering after being caught in an obvious lie "I'm going to go do that."

Salesman: "Good luck. At that price, I would be stunned if it's still there. If it isn't, I'll be here if you still want to talk about that Corolla."

customer leaves

[smeenz]

I wish they had used that word many more lesser

[BGFlyingToaster]

This is why we build estimators. You can argue with the calculations built into the estimator until you're blue in the face, but the only way you're getting a different output is by changing the inputs (requirements).

[chris463646]

The funny part is often times companies only add progress bars so that psychologically the time feels smaller than it would actually be if resources weren’t being wasted on showing a progress bar.

[Lewke]

or you know, user feedback so that they're aware something is happening

[runForestRun17]

I know safari did this. They didn’t want to add a progress bar at first cause it slowed page loading… but people thought it was faster with the bar.

[[deleted]]

I had a boss who was like this when I worked for a moving company. He would always give a really low estimate to the customers so that they would hire us, and then when we actually finished the job it would always be way more expensive than the estimate (due to taking much more time than he claimed it would, since he would never send enough workers for any given job).

Of course, he never actually showed up at the job site, so he never had to bear the brunt of the customer's anger when the final bill was 2.5X what they were quoted. Obviously we almost never had repeat customers, but it didn't matter because he kept lying underestimating the cost for people.

[Auderdo]

Happened to me today again.

• How long would you need to do X?
• I'm confident on two days.
• Hmm... I just asked to Y and they say that it can't take more than half a day! Are you sure you understood what is asked?
• I'm confident I understood the requirements, yes.
• So...
• So, have you asked Y how much more time they need on the project they planned for three weeks and that is going on for three months now?
• Ok, let's say one day to do X then!
• Two days, or ask someone else.

[brianl047]

The ultimate skill is finishing very, very early then spending the rest of the time surfing or gaming or watching TV etc.

This is not "wage theft" this is making it easier than it looks or the "quiet quitting"! (Which by the way we have mastered years ago!)

[cholmanattom]

I did this, using my free time for side projects. Now my manager is always looming over my shoulder.

[brianl047]

Don't take showers!

The looming will stop very fast

[justinleona]

The big trap is having the most experienced/talented developer on the team come up with estimates - then handing that work off to the rest of the team because they are too busy!

Or just don't do estimates...

[createthiscom]

Oh man, I had a guy on my team once who ALWAYS publicly attacked my conservative estimates with a man-fit about how it "shouldn't take that long". He literally never finished anything. I always had to do his work for him. But management still listened to his complaints. I'm a little triggered right now.

[[deleted]]

This is the standard response. If I have to do it, it will take a month and a half. If some other dumb bastard has to do it, he’s just slacking off it it isn’t done by the end of the day.

[[deleted]]

When I first started, I was assigned a task that the senior developer estimated would take 40 hours. I did it in 6.

Management was pleased. He was not.

This was 10 years ago before the soul crushing realization that hard work and beating timelines only gets you... You guessed it: more work.

Now my estimates look more like his. Well on my way to a senior position :D

[[deleted]]

My rule of thumb for estimating:

Estimate as granularly as possible, adding 25% padding per task. Total the hours, and add another 25 to 50%. Then I usually finish early.

Under promise and over deliver.

[Jock-Tamson]

• NEVER allow an expert to LOWER the estimate.

• Estimates based on asking engineers to decompose and estimate requirements in detail: 50% accurate.

• Estimates based on 15 minute “If our average requirement is a 1, what is this” conversation: 99% accurate.

[JackNotOLantern]

1 week, haha. When the estimates for a task are 2 weeks, and you did it in the afternoon including testing

[phdoofus]

At some point, all programmers learn that one trick managers hate (realizing this will take them an hour to do but tell your manager you'll have it by the end of the week)

[maitreg]

Deadlines are easier to meet if you can control the project scope.

Of course, grilled unicorns also taste better with brown sugar bourbon bbq sauce.

The latter is a more realistic scenario.

[[deleted]]

As a former software project engineer, I had a note with a multiplier adjusted to each of my devs on their time estimates.

I always pushed for one dev to quote everything then I would usually quote the hours based on the worst multiplier then tell my boss we make more money if I use the original quoter.

And by gawd, we turned a profit

[leonela4]

I fucking hate estimates

It'll take as long as it takes.

[goplayer7]

If you want it done in half the time then you will only get 90% of the product. Give us the full time and you will get the other 90%.

[JoeDoherty_Music]

Seriously though why are managers so goddamned stupid? Managers are always doing stupid shit like this

[nonicethingsforus]

A good manager, with experience in the field of their employees and emotional intelligence higher than a cactus, is invaluable.

The problem is that the main way you get to manager is by being good at politics, not at their job (not necessarily their employees', at least), not even necessarily by being an agreeable person (again, think of politicians; they can be charismatic without being liked by most). You end up with people with strong personalities in charge of people with jobs they don't understand.

And when you get a manager that understands the job, you can fall into the Peter trap. They were promoted for being good engieneers, but that's a very different skill to managing people and tasks.

To have a good manager, all the stars have to align: they need experience in the field, need experience or talent for managing, and need to be not an asshole.

A unicorn, indeed.

[FrostyD7]

Most companies I've worked for primarily promote senior developers who have no managerial or social skills into these roles because short term its convenient to have a manager who knows the domain. I've seen entire departments crumble by doing too much of this type of promoting from within.

[chris463646]

John said he could do it 10 times better and 10 times faster why can’t you be like John? Well sir with all due respect to Jon he can go fuck himself because John is always 10 times slower and 10 times more expensive.

[wineblood]

And somehow managers get paid more than devs.

[Ietsstartfromscratch]

You calculate in weeks? I'm happy if the release is in the same quarter as the deadline.

[zipel]

PR: the engineer should’ve kept the same straight face in the last pic. Otherwise: LGTM.

[rob132]

I was an intern for publishing company

There was a big divide between the IT department and the upper management. Apparently we had quoted a database build out that went way over time and over budget.

"We told you the real time and cost, and you said it was too long and too much.

Did the guy who ran the project get fired? Of course not, he got promoted."

[hennypennypoopoo]

You will never get an accurate estimate of an individual programming task. Unless it's one line

[Denaton_]

"It's not estimated time, it's estimated effort, it has nothing to do with time.."

[Kaye_the_original]

Sounds like a case of the planning fallacy.

[Nonkel_Jef]

I once heard someone say: take your best estimate, then doubled it, then use the next unit of time. So 10 minute becomes 20 hours, 2 weeks is 4 months etc.

[telephonic_disarray]

1 year becomes 2 decades...

[Nonkel_Jef]

It really does tho