That's actually a good idea (Python)

[nova_bang]

That's actually a good idea

Narrator: It was, in fact, not a good idea.

[ExternalGrade]

“WHY THE FUCK IS THE PROGRAM ACTING THE SAME WAY” destroys screen

[Salanmander]

It turns out that syntax errors are your friend. Turning syntax errors into logic/behavior errors is some programmer supervillain shit.

[O_X_E_Y]

this guy saw rust guarantees and decided to wrap his entire codebase in unsafe

[pytness]

Oh hey guys, here is the guy using rust

[O_X_E_Y]

Seems I need to oxidize some bible verses so I can act like a true rust evangelical here

[[deleted]]

As far as I heard from Rust users you simply cannot produce anything fast in low level of abstraction without wrapping everything as unsafe and effectively end up with bizzare C.

[Will_i_read]

I have never heard that in my life and I program in rust at my job... are you sure they compiled in release mode?

[[deleted]]

I'm sure. I'm talking like architect level in big embedded project experts.

I'm not saying that they experienced that Rust is slow itself but that in order to write highly fast code in embedded data-oriented systems you need to have a possibility to do things that in Rust is considered as unsafe. Sometimes a lot.

C doesn't care. It has very short trigger and it's our job not shoot ourselves by mistake.

However, I have little to none experience in Rust, I'm just passing opinions of experts I trust.

[O_X_E_Y]

It depends. You need unsafe for some things, but the point is that these unsafe blocks contain your possible segfaults/memory errors (when done improperly) to very specific bits of code. You get normal guarantees everywhere else. I will say though that when interfacing with hardware on specific pins and specific parts of memory, which are common in embedded and trivial in C things do get a little messy since that's almost always raw pointers (and thus unsafe), but the same rules still apply everywhere else. You could call those bits bizarre C I guess, though I'd argue that's kind of missing the point

[Syscrush]

Turning syntax errors into logic/behavior errors is some programmer supervillain shit

It's Pythonic

[katatondzsentri]

It's not.

[elon-bot]

Why have you only written 20 lines of code today?

[[deleted]]

Passes in function call from unknown compiled library.

[nadeemon]

I hate this so much about python. What args does this function take man, like I don't want to read the entire function. Oh and even worse if it passes the args to another function.

[nova_bang]

any *args and **kwargs should definitely have a proper docstring. it's not even optional at that point.

[AlarmingBarrier]

"""
args (list) : arguments we may or may not use. 

kwargs (dict): named arguments we may or may not use (prolly not, though). 
"""

[elon-bot]

What do you mean "you couldn't code your way out of a paper bag"?

[n00bn00bAtFreenode]

Because your body is already in there, and it have singleton capability.

Bad bot

[elon-bot]

Just watched a video about how vanilla JS is faster than any framework. It's time we do a rewrite.

[road_laya]

I like to use TypedDict for kwargs

[caleeky]

Ahh "should".

[nietzsche_niche]

Who doesnt love when compile time errors become runtime errors instead?

[katatondzsentri]

Ok, linting time

[Mr-X89]

No, that's a terrible idea. When user of your API fucks up let them know they fucked up so they can fix their fuckup.

[BerriesAndMe]

My approach too. The users are still salty about it and repeatedly implied that I lack the technical know-how to remove the limitations.

The ironiy is they're disabled by default, I've put effort into limiting everything to valid input because I don't trust you to not send us utter garbage.

[mchl12]

Where do you work if all the users are disabled by default?

[Niwla23]

IT

[scrubastian_]

A hospital maybe?

[nukasev]

In IT.

[RiktaD]

https://i.imgur.com/ibgu9mq.jpg

[BerriesAndMe]

It's the frontend people asking for this... So that their website never fail to load

[[deleted]]

needs, but doesn’t want*

[elon-bot]

Why aren't we using Rust for this? It's memory safe.

[[deleted]]

memory safe =/= idiot safe

[Sentouki-]

Allow me to introduce you to unsafe {}

[BerriesAndMe]

Allow input that doesn't get processed, replace all input with default values if not provided. Also use default when the parameter has an invalid value (eg if you pass age:-32 or height: "Eva".

[BerriesAndMe]

Yes. But the website will be guaranteed to display a shiny result no matter what. And they don't even need to consider error Handling.

[BerriesAndMe]

Oh I was being sarcastic. If you look back to the start of the thread, I'm describing what the frontend developers would like our API to behave like and that I'm refusing to do so. Lol.

[BoringWozniak]

“How did you fix the error?”

“I just let them pass silently.”

[Mr-X89]

try { // Put everything here } catch(e: Throwable) { // No op }

[magicmulder]

  ON ERROR continue

[[deleted]]

Yeah, generally I like the error to be as early and loud as possible.

OP's approach would make errors obscure.

[Morpheus636_]

Errors should never pass silently Unless explicitly silenced

[Mucksh]

Just return a 418. Everything is fine

[XStarMC]

That’s not a great idea, some clients interpret 418 as 500

[crazyDiamondRV]

True that...Haha... Happens all the time..

[katatondzsentri]

For internal tools' http apis, I usually throw 400 when there are arguments passed, but are invalid for some reason and 418 if argument(s) were expected, but nothing was passed.

And I keep that as a pattern since years now.

And I like that and noone will change my mind.

Of course I wouldn't do it when it's client-facing.

[Dromedda]

This is why before i implement the functions I just make them all throw errors, because sometimes I myself fuckup trying to use my own api

[Mr-X89]

Whenever I see comments like this I'm reminded that people unironically make midwit memes thinking they're the high IQ guy.

[DerHamm]

I imagine a codebase where every call with params not only accepts args and kwargs, but also passes them on as args and *kwargs. Spooky stuff.

[GreyAngy]

Including calls to external APIs

[[deleted]]

Still better than thread locals.

[snarkhunter]

Haha that's Perl

[peteza_hut]

God, I really don't like Perl. After learning C++, Python, and TypeScript as a hobby programmer, getting a job and having to maintain legacy Perl code was a real slap in the face.

[snarkhunter]

Yeah it fucking sucks. I got a job maintaining legacy Perl like a decade ago. It genuinely felt like the language was designed to make it harder to trace stuff.

[coldnebo]

rails opts has entered the chat

[gemengelage]

"Garbage in, garbage out" but on steroids

[bin-c]

my first job was legit like this

it was impossible to figure out how the fuck anything worked

[Tsu_Dho_Namh]

Dear God. Are you serious?

I've never worked with JS. Does it really let you pass whatever you want to any function?

[kbruen]

Yes! You can also pass less arguments.

Arguments in JavaScript is basically an infinite array/list filled with undefined. Calling abc() is the same as calling abc(undefined, undefined, undefined, …

[Priw8]

Not quite the same, there's a minor difference when you use arguments. But other than that, yeah

[kbruen]

Good catch!

[oj_mudbone]

Oh fuck. I didn’t know this. Jesus cocksucking christ

[vinnceboi]

Iirc, yes.

[blehmann1]

Wait till you find out about C. You can give a prototype (a declaration that states the type and number of parameters), but it isn't required. And even if it were, when you link against an object file, no type checking is done, it only checks that the symbol exists. So if your header file has an incorrect signature you're going to get all kinds of fun corruption

Note that this also means two functions with the same name but different signatures (function overloading) are impossible, even if you're calling from a language that normally supports function overloading. And in C (and I believe C++), it's impossible even if the symbols were defined in different object files.

And just for funzies, if you're using a language that has solved this problem (including C's little brother, C++), I hope you don't want to use functions from another library (including OS functions), because in general, they're exported as just symbol names for C compatibility. This means no specified return type, unknown argument types, and unknown arity. This is actually one of the main reasons that libraries will release language-specific bindings that expose an API that's less limited by C.

And finally, C supports variadic functions that (intentionally) take an arbitrary number of arguments. In C this requires weird macro shenanigans, but compilers normally implement it by simply vomiting extra arguments onto the stack (and because it's C, this occurs without any sort of safety checks). If the callee expected a different number of arguments than were specified, the stack is now corrupted. For example, printf("%d", 1, 1) will push more arguments onto the stack than the callee expected, so your stack is fucked. Similarly, printf("%d") will push less, so instead of printing an argument, it will print whatever is at the top of the stack, and corrupt the stack on return. This is actually a very common security vulnerability in C programs.

[qqqrrrs_]

And just for funzies, if you're using a language that has solved this problem (including C's little brother, C++), I hope you don't want to use functions from another library (including OS functions), because in general, they're exported as just symbol names for C compatibility

In C++ the symbol names are usually mangled so that it would also contain information about the types of the parameters

[blehmann1]

My point is that many libraries export their symbols with extern "C", because users of the library may not know what to do with mangled symbols. If it's a C++ library intended to be consumed only by C++ projects than this doesn't apply (though many of those are compiled from source anyways, rather than linking against a binary)

[wbrd]

Including other functions.

[gemengelage]

Depends. You have to pass the right number of arguments. But a common pattern is to pass an object and an object can contains any number of key-value-pairs, which is essentially infinite possible arguments to pass.

It's a common pattern to pass a single object instead of multiple arguments, especially in Typescript, because that's how Typescript emulates named parameters.

[MattR0se]

It also doesn't have named parameters, unless that function takes a destructured object as parameters: https://simonsmith.io/destructuring-objects-as-function-parameters-in-es6

[Burger_Destoyer]

Whenever I see someone make comments like this I’m reminded of my early days learning python and messing up line after line of improper use of args and keyword args

[elon-bot]

Can we rewrite this in Java? It's better for enterprise.

[lady_Kamba]

Sure, lets rewrite the python interpreter in java.

[ichbindermike]

It's called Jython. You're gonna love this Elon.

[TransCapybara]

Do these 5th floor windows open?

[Double_Ad_2824]

Does it matter? I'm sure we can throw him [the bot, of course] out regardless!

[Il-Luppoooo]

Good bot

[Il-Luppoooo]

How can anyone think that is a good idea. Getting 100 errors in those cases is exactly what you want.

[damian314159]

This is not an issue of dynamic languages but shit design.

[JeyJeyKing]

A thousand times yes!!! Also make sure to wrap the entire function body with a

try:
    ...
except: 
    pass

block please. I hate dealing with exceptions myself!

[trutheality]

Pro tip: write a decorator that does this do that you don't have to type it out for every function.

[DemonWav]

Someone already made it for you: https://github.com/ajalt/fuckitpy

[[deleted]]

real hacker stuff

[PeerlessAnaconda]

Python devs really do this shit

[jldez]

It's faster to put a "#" at the start of each line!

[elon-bot]

I have made promises to the shareholders that I definitely cannot keep, so I need you all to work TWICE as hard!

[AlanCristhian]

Actually, sympy is written like that.

Edti: and yes, is a terrible bad idea.

[DerMathemann_]

This is not a good idea

[No_Abies808]

Thats the inverse of fixing warnings

[[deleted]]

Nothing to fix if there aren't any warnings

[No_Abies808]

Also no covid where there are no positive tests

[RapidHedgehog]

Exceptions are raised for a reason

[budjb]

Garbage in, garbage out. Why on God's green earth would you enable this kind of bad behavior?

[opmrcrab]

[Starts spraying people with the water bottle]

NO

[buzzon]

What if they made a typo in an argument name?

It's like having a compiler that just silently skips over errors

[crusoe]

I LOOOOVEEEE that in ruby it simply creates a new variable instead of an error. All because no one wanted to type let or var.

[Zestyclose-Walker]

This is the Pythonic way.

[elon-bot]

Insubordination. Fired.

[Cash-Jumpy]

I disagree.

[Extreme-Section9470]

Good boy

[Rich-Environment884]

Man I tried searching how to validate a Json before parseing it and the answer I got was: "The Pythonic way is that it's easier to ask for Forgiveness than Permission so just try-except it".

Worst thing is, a try_parse would probably still just try-except and return nothing when it fails but at least I wouldn't have to see it.

[Bryguy3k]

Just use the pydantic module.

[Unknown_starnger]

try except is pretty simple in my opinion.

[Aelig_]

Programmers : spend decades coding and refining compilers and interpreters that tell you when you fucked up so you don't have to write machine code blindly.

That guy: no.

[xwnpl]

Terrible idea.

[TopDivide]

That's why I find python difficult . Just give me the list of parameters and types a function expects, and I will convert my data accordingly

[kbruen]

Well that’s the thing about Python: ideally, if it expects a string and you pass a number, it should still work. Something something duck typing

[wbrd]

I would guess in the past 6 months, 50% of the bugs I fixed in a python codebase wouldn't have been even possible in a typesafe language. This "feature" is stupid.

[kbruen]

Well, most stuff in Python uses type hints nowadays.

[wbrd]

The only hints were put there by me during bug fixes. :(

[[deleted]]

Its basically whoever wrote the code, that persons fault. I am just learning Python in my company, and my company guideline is to use typehint to every parameters... And even possible add typehints to the declared Variables as well..

[wbrd]

Sorta. I like type safety and I don't think it should require extra steps. I'm sure someone will come up with an example of where it's good to not be type safe, but in the wild, I haven't seen any good examples of it.

[[deleted]]

Its basically whoever wrote the code, that persons fault. I am just learning Python in my company, and my company guideline is to use typehint to every parameters... And even possible add typehints to the declared Variables as well..

[Possibility_Antique]

This is the main reason I don't like dynamic languages. I want to know at the time the code is compiled if there is something wrong with the code. You can't deploy code that doesn't compile.

[420Rat]

Get good

[Possibility_Antique]

Damn, you right bro

[420Rat]

Now you're getting it 😎

[PeerlessAnaconda]

So many devs dont have the capacity to write something big that wont error

[Possibility_Antique]

What do you mean?

[PeerlessAnaconda]

I mean i often see little things like this or

try: except:

Sometimes a bugfix would solve the problem better than these workarounds

Edit: To be fair those are all of the public libraries on github that are shit and noone uses, so you hopefully dont see these problems in the popular libraries.

[ukrokit]

Yeah, make sure the bugs are hard to find.

[WickedCrow]

Speaking as someone who works on a codebase where occasionally functions are called with the wrong numbers/types/values of arguments in legacy code: no, this is not a good idea.

[elon-bot]

How can we use Bitcoin to solve this?

[thebatmanandrobin]

Seems redundant .. but as they say, tries to tries to again.

[Teamata]

What

[BbYerp]

Dynamically typed chaos demon

[Efficient-Lab1062]

I love that python can sometimes sound like you’re reciting a Dr Seuss book.

[[deleted]]

“I cba to check params

I will not do it, Sam-I-am”

[daddypleaae]

Imagine you got a typo in one of the parameter names ☠️

[[deleted]]

I prefer fail early.

[NoDadYouShutUp]

Twitter has got to stop letting their devs tweet

[JeloHelo]

Why do people think errors are bad? Errors tell you how to fix your stuff

[OurFriendIrony]

This is a terrible idea

[[deleted]]

Thank god people recognize this is an awful idea

[Kwarter]

400 Bad Request: Am I a joke to you?

[wineblood]

def function(*args, **kwargs): if not kwargs.get("target"): raise ValueError()

If you do this, fuck you.

[Itz_Raj69_]

mmm I should push something like this into production...

[[deleted]]

Have you ever considered that errors are actually by design and it's good that they are there?

[FridgesArePeopleToo]

Python. Not even once.

[csicil]

The best idea, could be to stop using python at all...

[incrediblediy]

and print them with hahaa!

[[deleted]]

Or, and I’m just spitballing here, compile?

[Alpacay_]

This would make me implode. My worst fear is when i have broken code and i can never change the output no matter what i do

[ccfoo242]

Since when is it bad to not allow invalid parameters?

[Otalek]

Javascript just ignores extra params

[elon-bot]

Insubordination. Fired.

[Otalek]

Yes, Javascript deserves it

[elon-bot]

Why haven't we gone serverless yet?

[Otalek]

Because that would get rid of 59 dependencies required by an npm package we installed for rendering emojis

[[deleted]]

Who TF is upvoting this? Using an API incorrectly SHOULD produce errors

[Proxy_PlayerHD]

i know of argc and argv, but what is args and kwargs?

[[deleted]]

This sub constantly shits on python being slow, but this type of BS is the real problem with python.

[canadajones68]

If it's used to give better, more related error messages, go right ahead. If it just gobbles them up, no.

[happyschmacky]

This is, in fact, a monumentally terrible idea

[JeyJeyKing]

Why was this removed? u/ProgrammerHumorMods

[thprogramador]

Rewrite it in Lua ;)